Official SWF Tier List v8

[pidgezero_one]

To answer Shaya's question about why crap gets spammed in here: it's because at least spammers know they look ****ing stupid.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

(How about you just message her privately) - Shaya


Now that that's over with, Sonic > Peach, ROB > Sonic, Snake + Falco > Marth, and Jigglypuff > MK.

 

[Tesh]

"sonic cant kill" really only applies to the safest characters in the game.

if you are metaknight/olimar/falco/snake you really shouldn't die before upthrow/nair kill percents because you have all the range and frame data to avoid death every time you are wrong.

but for most characters, sonic can chase you down and screw up your recovery, score early kills in the air or just outrange you on stage with his kill moves

 

[ShadowLink84]

I could drown myself in your optimism, even more than NR's. That's a feat.

Eh, its because when Sakurai said "I want to close the gap" I knew Brawl was going to be meh.
At the moment I am just going to sit here and assume its going to be worse.
This time, Link will be below Ganon.
MetaKnight is replaced by K. Rool who becomes #1 because his hitboxes are half the size of the stage and one shot.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Eh, its because when Sakurai said "I want to close the gap" I knew Brawl was going to be meh.
At the moment I am just going to sit here and assume its going to be worse.
This time, Link will be below Ganon.
MetaKnight is replaced by K. Rool who becomes #1 because his hitboxes are half the size of the stage and one shot.

Quite simply, I lost a lot of interest once i found out that gc controllers won't work, as in everyone using a Wiimote or something similar. Imagine 100 people with Wireless controllers playing a tournament in the same room. It'll be like 100 people playing melee all being forced to use Wavebirds and anyone who has tried doing this has a very bad tie.

What I see occurring:

Singles: Two TVs next to one another

Smasher A: Hey you paused my tv
Smasher B: Wait, I was pausing on mine.

Doubles:

Smasher C: What the F***, you took a stock by pausing on my TV.
Smasher D: I was trying to take a stock by pausing on mine

etc.

 

[Osennecho]

Stuff

http://www.raphnet-tech.com/products/gc_to_wiimote/index.php

 

[Luco]

...

You know there'll be adapters for GC controllers on it right? I heard the tidbit a while ago and never took that much notice of it because it doesn't really concern me (I use wiichuk and i'm careful with it) but i'm reasonably sure of its reliability, from memory.

EDIT: Ninja'd so bad.

 

[FredFuchs]

but for most characters, sonic can chase you down and screw up your recovery, score early kills in the air or just outrange you on stage with his kill moves

outranging isn't something that sonic can really do with any of his moves let alone the few that can kill, and the only move that can kill early in the air is u-air, which also requires you to be rather close to the ceiling at lower %s

 

[Luco]

He has Bair actually Fred - but Uair always surprises me when versing him. Then again I don't verse sonic that often and i've never been scared of him (inb4espytellsmehowscarysonicis ) so it's not hard for his Uair to surprise me I suppose. :o

 

[FredFuchs]

He has Bair actually Fred - but Uair always surprises me when versing him. Then again I don't verse sonic that often and i've never been scared of him (inb4espytellsmehowscarysonicis ) so it's not hard for his Uair to surprise me I suppose. :o

he said early kills in the air. i'm aware that b-air is his most reliable kill move but u-air can kill earlier with a proper set up

 

[Tesh]

outranging isn't something that sonic can really do with any of his moves let alone the few that can kill, and the only move that can kill early in the air is u-air, which also requires you to be rather close to the ceiling at lower %s

you have no idea what you are talking about

sonic's strongest killers have the highest range. they are slow but if you get caught doing something other than shielding, you will get out ranged and overpowered in most cases Fsmash outranges most moves, more range than mk/marth's tilts and smashes...

have you ever even seen this move? sonic leans back and then throws his fist halfway across the planet

edit: lets also not forget that he has a chargeable move that crosses any legal stage in 40 frames or so and combos into killers from 90-140 which isnt terrible.

he really isnt bad at killing against most characters because most characters simply dont have the safety to fight him without risking these setups

 

[FredFuchs]

you have no idea what you are talking about

sonic's strongest killers have the highest range. they are slow but if you get caught doing something other than shielding, you will get out ranged and overpowered in most cases Fsmash outranges most moves, more range than mk/marth's tilts and smashes...

have you ever even seen this move? sonic leans back and then throws his fist halfway across the planet

edit: lets also not forget that he has a chargeable move that crosses any legal stage in 40 frames or so and combos into killers from 90-140 which isnt terrible.

he really isnt bad at killing against most characters because most characters simply dont have the safety to fight him without risking these setups

*turns on wii and puts on practice mode*
marth's f-tilt out ranges soinic's f-smash. however, f-tilt isn't as reliable a move as f-air, which sonic's f smash does indeed outrange. i will admit that i'm wrong

 

[Espy Rose]

Two misconceptions about Sonic that have followed players since 2008 is that he lacks range and priority. Neither of these have been true.

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

Also funny to say sonic can't kill while comparing him to peach and jigglypuff... Yeah he can't kill but compared to the other two he is practically gannon for kill power. Not really but of the three I would put him as easily the best killer.

 

[pidgezero_one]

I somehow manage to play the worst puff ever (never dacus or rest) and still land kills

 

[Osennecho]

I somehow manage to play the worst puff ever (never dacus or rest) and still land kills

DACUS and rest are instrumental to Puffs game, but neither should ever land often. At most you should only be able to pull of 1 kill between the two in a match if that. If more then your opponent really messed up or you're godlike at baiting..... Or you're a ton better then the opposing player and were able to spam the two till they hit.

 

[Jabejazz]

Only valid reason that Sanic can be considered better than anybody is because of the hype this goddamned dude generates.

 

[Desu~]

"Follow me,
Set me free..."

 

[Spelt]

Someone get that guy a xanax.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

http://www.raphnet-tech.com/products/gc_to_wiimote/index.php

This many people getting adapters, oh hah

but let's get back to the actual tier list (oh hah will this happen)

 

[BSP]

"sonic cant kill" really only applies to the safest characters in the game.

I'd disagree. Even his KO moves have pretty meager knockback. I'm sure you've fought Sonic enough times to realize that if you don't get hit by F or Dsmash and have good DI, you'll survive for quite a while minus surprise Uair kills that you can see coming.

if you are metaknight/olimar/falco/snake you really shouldn't die before upthrow/nair kill percents because you have all the range and frame data to avoid death every time you are wrong.

Agreed.

but for most characters, sonic can chase you down and screw up your recovery, score early kills in the air or just outrange you on stage with his kill moves

He can chase you down, but how will he screw up recoveries? The only aerial he has that doesn't send you upwards is early Dair. Bair can be heavily DI'd and is most likely not fresh; Fair is ok, but they can SDI it; Uair is good when they're at the ceiling, but sonic has to mindgame the opponent into it, and in most cases, he's committing to Spring to chase you with Uair, so he'll miss any additional opportunities; Nair will lose to nearly any other aerial in the game. I wouldn't rely on it. Spring can mess up bag recoveries I guess, but most characters can just hit it with an attack and be fine. I wouldn't count on Sonic screwing with recovery.

As for the grounded KO options: remember how slow Fsmash is. It's got the range, but unless the opponent makes a decent mistake, they really shouldn't get hit by it. It also only does 14% uncharged, so it shouldnt be too difficult to clank with using most tilts. You'd have to been close of course, since his Fsmash has a disjoint.

 

[pidgezero_one]

Only valid reason that Sanic can be considered better than anybody is because of the hype this goddamned dude generates.

WTF how did you find my youtube channel

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I think most of you are still over-estimating Peach. I'm not saying Sonic is good, but Peach is going to have a much, much harder time placing.

Sonic's kill power is bad and his match-ups could be better, but his mobility alone is >>>> anything Peach. Sonic can use his good traits to outplay people. All Peach has is what she has. Peach is basically ganon with shield pressure and a bad projectile.

Peach has match-ups she can never, ever win unless she's controlled by a much much better player. Sonic doesn't have any match-ups like that, save for arguably Lucario.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Peach is basically ganon with shield pressure and a bad projectile.

Peach doesn't have kill power though

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Peach doesn't have kill power though

Ganon doesn't really either, if you're playing against Ganon correctly >_>

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Ganon doesn't really either, if you're playing against Ganon correctly >_>

Well, that depends on how you define "kill power"

Ganon has weak kill power if you consider "kill power" to be "killing the opponent reliably"

Ganon has great kill power if you define "kill power" as "killing the opponent at relatively low percent"

I think that most people use the second definition. The first definition would (imo) better define "kill potential" rather than "kill power" and Ganon definitely does not have "kill potential" using that definition.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Ganon is actually better at both, lol, but not by much.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Well, it's official: Ganon > Peach

 

[Spelt]

meta knight is basically ganon with a sword

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Nope. they're both linear, terrible at killing, and easily camped out, but Peach has a ton of pressure when she gets inside. I mean, that's all she has, but it's something. She also has better match-ups than Ganon, even though her chart is optimistic at best IMO. She beats Wario and probably a few other good characters which is something other bad-ish characters can't claim.

Peach is IMO low-mid tier, probably the worst or second-worst character in mid tier.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Nope. they're both... terrible

...

Peach is IMO low... tier, probably the worst or second-worst character

Selective quoting ftw!

Anyway inb4Dark.Pch

lol I almost typed "dork.pch"

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Peach is basically ganon with shield pressure and a bad projectile.

Her so-called shield pressure is overrated and only actually comes into play if the opponent is sitting in his shield while Peach floats towards him. And that's more a question of shield being a bad choice in such a situation, rather than Peach being naturally good at forcing such a scenario.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Her so-called shield pressure is overrated and only actually comes into play if the opponent is sitting in his shield while Peach floats towards him. And that's more a question of shield being a bad choice in such a situation, rather than Peach being naturally good at forcing such a scenario.

I actually agree, but note that I never said that she should be able to be on top of someone's shield hitting dair, just that she CAN pressure a shield. Like, she's good at hitting shields and staying positive in a vacuum. That doesn't mean I agree that it's a practical or usable strength in high-level play (where she's probably being juggled and gimped everywhere) just that she CAN do it, whereas Ganon has next to nothing even if his opponent messes up.

 

[Djent]

I really think Peach is probably > Pikachu. I don't really any have solid theory to back it up, but that match always plays out in Peach's favor.
Illmatic and Kyon > ESAM
(Apparently Nicole beat him in a MM as well, but I can't confirm this)
Slayerz and Silly Kyle > Z
Illmatic > K Prime
Mikey Lenetia > Anther (dem '08 wins lololol)
Come to mention it, when has Pika ever won this matchup at a high level? I'm not counting the "meh" Peaches that ESAM has beaten. Embarrass

 

[Tesh]

I don't really understand why, but results overwhelmingly show that Peach beats Pikachu.

Even by the standards of any good character, Ganondorf definitely has kill power. Kill power is just about the only thing he does have because he has such a hard time landing the hits to get ready to start killing.

Lets not forget he has 2 <10 frame aerials that kill and a frame 10 dash attack that kills and has massive priority and can anti air short hops. I mean...its a really damn good dash attack and we'd all be complaining about it if a good character had it.

@BSP, as i said, a select few characters can reliably avoid his kill options while actively fighting him. i'd say wolf and ddd are the only ones i didnt mention earlier.

Off stage most characters aren't in a position to avoid back air because they need to move towards it to recover and/or they can't beat it from the angle they'd be returning. His moves aren't absurdly powerful but they get the job done when they hit. Back Air doesn't have the problems Fsmash has, its very low lag and doesn't clash so for most characters if you stick a tilt in and you trade, you die.

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

I think I can see why peach would beat pikachu. The one thing that peach has going for her is a good shield pressure game. Problem is that most decent characters can zone her out without much trouble negating her one strength. Thing is pikachu doesn't really have a zoning game...

On a side note though, I totally got the thread back on track with peach talk... Pidge you need to step up your game. I'm beating you out with peach talk for pete's sake!

 

[Luco]

I really think Peach is probably > Pikachu. I don't really any have solid theory to back it up, but that match always plays out in Peach's favor.
Illmatic and Kyon > ESAM
(Apparently Nicole beat him in a MM as well, but I can't confirm this)
Slayerz and Silly Kyle > Z
Illmatic > K Prime
Mikey Lenetia > Anther (dem '08 wins lololol)
Come to mention it, when has Pika ever won this matchup at a high level? I'm not counting the "meh" Peaches that ESAM has beaten. Embarrass

For a second I thought you were talking about the tier list when you said Peach > Pikachu - I was a bit like "Oh wow look at this interesting opinion, looks like there'll be a battle to the death now!" and then I understood what you were talking about.

Aww.

 

[pidgezero_one]

I think I can see why peach would beat pikachu. The one thing that peach has going for her is a good shield pressure game. Problem is that most decent characters can zone her out without much trouble negating her one strength. Thing is pikachu doesn't really have a zoning game...

On a side note though, I totally got the thread back on track with peach talk... Pidge you need to step up your game. I'm beating you out with peach talk for pete's sake!

Dude I retired.

 

[Tesh]

You'd think Pikachu would edgeguard and juggle peach for free much like Snake (peach can't get hit by thunder 10 times and come back though).

Its a shame she has these niche uses against the least popular high tier characters (wario, ics, pika)

Makes me want to discuss her relative to Sheik, another lady of mid tier with some niche uses (falco, wario, zss)

I think sheik is better against MK, Snake, Marth and MAYBE diddy, olimar with the downside of having very bad matchups with pika and ics.

I think Sheik is another good candidate for "better than peach".

Peach really belongs with ike, they are suffering from the same things. They do pretty respectably against alot of characters, but I'd put viability vs MK as a big reason for Ike being so low. Peach clearly struggles in the same way. This is why imo Sonic Sheik and even Ness should be above Peach, DK, Ike.

Rob could be in the latter group but in theory his other matchups are so redeeming that his poor MK matchups shouldn't matter as much.

 

[Luco]

Just to quickly point out something - ICs are pretty prevalent. Sure there may not be as many as MKs or even Olimar/Diddy - but there's usually at least 1 or 2 ICs at any given tournament and all it takes is one player to end you with them. Like, I mean it applies to all characters... but ICs are in that 'somewhat ridiculous' category - having a positive MU against characters who make most of the cast tremble is a really good thing.

I dunno, I can usually articulate my point across clearly but for this one...

Maybe what i'm trying to say is, they're so powerful that whether or not there's a lot of players of them there, having a positive MU against them helps.

So IMO wario and pika are in that category but ICs positive MU is actually pretty nice.

Not that i'm taking a side here, just sayin'.