Official SWF Tier List v8

[Grim Tuesday]

Maybe I should reveal my Pound Sliding AT, that might breath life back into the boards.

 

[Cold Fusion]

Maybe I should reveal my Pound Sliding AT, that might breath life back into the boards.

Does it make Jiggs better than MK?

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Does it make Jiggs better than MK?

Ah a Puff can dream...

 

[socandrewcer]

Ah a Puff can dream...

A Puff can LIVE!!!!

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Does it make Jiggs better than MK?

Obviously, otherwise I wouldn't bother to bring it up.

It gives her an extra aggressive tool and an extra landing mix-up (especially when combined with b-reverse Pound.

It's going to be pretty cool once I master it, won't change anything too drastically (like solve her problems), just gives her another tool.

 

[Cold Fusion]

Obviously, otherwise I wouldn't bother to bring it up.

Alright gaise, time for a new MU chart and tier list. Jigglypuff now 70-30's the whole cast.

And Jigglypuff's only problem is that no one is willing to play gay enough with her.

 

[socandrewcer]

We need at least some kind of tier list for doubles before smash 4 comes out.

 

[NickRiddle]

Doubles Tier Lists have to take into account every character teaming with every potential character.
That list would be stupidly huge.
Unless you're talking about each character overall, in which case it would be horribly inaccurate.
Ness/Lucas are TERRIBLE in doubles, unless teaming with somebody who can heal them reliably, etc.

 

[-LzR-]

And GW goes from decent to ******** when teaming up with a character who can easily help fill the bucket.

 

[socandrewcer]

Doubles Tier Lists have to take into account every character teaming with every potential character.
That list would be stupidly huge.
Unless you're talking about each character overall, in which case it would be horribly inaccurate.
Ness/Lucas are TERRIBLE in doubles, unless teaming with somebody who can heal them reliably, etc.

Good point. I was talking about each character overall...but still good point. I still think it would be a good thing to do and something new to spark conversation within the Brawl scene. Comparing how well certain characters do with other characters can be pretty similar to comparing characters to what stages they can play one.

And just a personal opinion, I think Ness has potential to be a good team character, for example, when FOW teams with M2K they rock the house.

Again, I think it could be something new, fun, and effective to the community.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Ness is a fantastic teams character. That fair can zone 1v2 super well and his kill potential with PKT2 and back throw is crazy.

 

[socandrewcer]

My top 6 for doubles
Meta Knight, Diddy Kong, Wario, Pikachu, Snake, Toon Link

Then I got lazy

Edit: Oh Yeah! And Ice Climbers are Z Tier

 

[xDD-Master]

MK Wario Gaw Snake Diddy are the best 5 overall IMO. There are some other really good combinations though!

 

[Shaya]

Ness/Lucas are TERRIBLE in doubles, unless teaming with somebody who can heal them reliably, etc.

While the two of them aren't overpowered super stars, they are definitely very strong doubles characters in comparison to singles, and you know this.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I didn't really enjoy teaming with Lucas

The Meta Knight just went ham on him and he wasn't mobile enough to do anything other than hold his own against the aggression

So I switch to MK to try and protect him, and then he wasn't mobile enough/couldn't KO reliably enough to stop the Wario from stock-tanking/building waft

Ness sounds aight tho

 

[Shaya]

Lucas/Ness teaming with certain other high tier double characters usually screams stupid though.
Pikachu, Zero Suit and Lucario. Funnily enough, all 3 of those characters are only kinda strong with their niche partners too. Doesn't change that all of them are etching towards or above High Tier in a single character double's tier list though.

 

[socandrewcer]

I didn't really enjoy teaming with Lucas

The Meta Knight just went ham on him and he wasn't mobile enough to do anything other than hold his own against the aggression

So I switch to MK to try and protect him, and then he wasn't mobile enough/couldn't KO reliably enough to stop the Wario from stock-tanking/building waft

Ness sounds aight tho

I agree that Ness is better in doubles because a lot of his moves are generally faster while Lucas just gets punished a bunch.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Lucas is bad in teams unless he can heal, he has no way to deal with 2 characters, hell, he cant even handle 1 character most of the time. The reason Ness is so drastically better is that he has the ability to zone people out and control space with fair allowing his teammate the ability to either recover safely or recover. Lucas has no big zoning move and his aerials are way too short range and small hitbox wise to keep people anywhere. Sure, he has better kill combos, but you cant really force damage with him, which is why you only see Lucas teaming with characters who can heal him while they zone 1v2 (like ZSS) and set up kills for Lucas to confirm while stock tanking. Ness has WAY more options both on the offensive AND defensive, while allowing the same options as Lucas does.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Nobody ever listened my idea of not making a Doubles Tier list but a Smogon-like character explanation with some of their possible or best strategies. maybe some A/B grouping, but definitely not a 1-37 List.

 

[infiniteV115]

ZSS does pretty well teaming with her non-niche/gimmick partners (PKkids/GW) if they're who you meant by niche partners, Shaya. She's good with the standard good doubles characters too, like MK/Wario/Diddy, as well as with heavies/tankers like Snake/DK/Sonic (though obv teaming with DK isn't too good)

She's just really weird to team with because usually when ZSS approaches/applies pressure, she's doing so with sideB/lasers/dsmash....so that means her partner can't be on the ground in front of her, cause if he/she is, she doesn't really have any options XD

 

[| Big D |]

This team tho

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AXLRMljLiE&list=PLrHvDQDhJa9sQS2tDby3wK9NPAahOO54p&index=3

 

[1PokeMastr]

Zss with Dk is a nightmare for the Dk player.

Dk takes up half the room.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I like how Luc and Luc are recovering a lot of percentage to basically have Lucas be a stock tank, but Lucario is basically taking about as much damage as he gives back to Lucas many times :/ I guess it gives Lucario better aura from the damage and maybe stock disadvantage, but... I thought it was generally better in teams to give yourself the advantage by hitting the other team. not have Lucario get hit, then potentially have him get tag teamed.

 

[1PokeMastr]

Lucario kind of needs damage for him to be good.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I forget, but isn't it only increased damage output and therefore knockback/hitstun/priority that are affected by aura? Other than aura sphere getting larger as well.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Hitstun and priority never goes up. Shield stun might, I dont remember, but those other two dont. But yes, technically only damage goes up, and in turn knockback goes up since it scales off damage.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Hitstun is based on knockback, which is in turn based on damage, so I'd assume it does go up with aura
But that's irrelevant because you can cancel hitstun in brawl

I don't know how shield stun is calculated, but I assume it's damage? So that would go up as well

And priority, assuming we're talking about the way ground attacks interact with each other, is also dependent on damage

so why wouldn't aura affect those things?

 

[Sunnysunny]

OH LOOK
IT'S THIS CONVERSATION AGAIN

For the record, yea, Aura increases hit stun/Damage/Knockback/ and shield stun

And I guess priority if you're talking about clashing? Lucario's disjoints so good it's hardly really noticable though.! But generally hitboxes n **** arn't effected unless it's like, aurasphere.

I dunno, the word "priority" is used so loosly here sometimes, so i'm gonna reframe from talking about that too much. Lol.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Hitstun works weird, I dont even want to attempt to explain that (and I was probably wrong anyway), but priority I guess would go up, but it would go up so little it wouldnt even really do anything.

EDIT: Ninja'd

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Priority should only be used to explain the way hitboxes interact when they touch each other

People who use it when talking about hitbox size, attack speed/duration and hitbox position are the ones who complicate the term

This article seems pretty legit: http://www.ssbwiki.com/Priority

 

[Man Li Gi]

Priority should only be used to explain the way hitboxes interact when they touch each other

People who use it when talking about hitbox size, attack speed/duration and hitbox position are the ones who complicate the term

This article seems pretty legit: http://www.ssbwiki.com/Priority

Thank you. People have been using it wrongly and it has been annoying me.

I like how Luc and Luc are recovering a lot of percentage to basically have Lucas be a stock tank, but Lucario is basically taking about as much damage as he gives back to Lucas many times :/ I guess it gives Lucario better aura from the damage and maybe stock disadvantage, but... I thought it was generally better in teams to give yourself the advantage by hitting the other team. not have Lucario get hit, then potentially have him get tag teamed.

The Anubis strat at its finest. Coulda worked better with Ness, but none the less a start that serves its lethal purpose.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Lucario + Ness is hella scary.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

April Fool's Day Tier List:
SS: Fox, Meta Knight
S: Ice Climbers
A+: Olimar, Diddy Kong
A-: Marth, Snake, Falco
B: Pikachu, Zero Suit Samus, Wario
C+: Lucario, King Dedede, Toon Link
C: Wolf, Mr. Game & Watch, Pit
C-: R.O.B., Peach
D: Kirby, Donkey Kong, Sonic, Ike, Sheilda, Sheik, Ness, Yoshi
E: Luigi, Pokémon Trainer, Lucas
F: Mario, Samus, Bowser, Captain Falcon, Link, Zelda, Ganondorf, Jigglypuff

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Jigglypuff isn't low enough.

 

[pidgezero_one]

my tier list:
-ike climbers
-sopo ike
-who cares
-slippy

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Jigglypuff isn't low enough.

You're right I should put Melee Fox PM Fox and 64 Fox at the top and then put Melee Puff PM Puff and 64 Puff at the bottom above Jigglypuff

ah well next year!

 

[Luco]

my tier list:
-ike climbers
-sopo ike
-who cares
-slippy

Actually pidge you made a great post on the page I left when you talked about subjectivity and opinion. Ah wellsies. :3

I think Lucas has the capabilities to be at around the same level as Ness on that hypothetical tier list. Magnet cancel to Dair is very rarely punished by most grounded opponents (save a couple. MK can die in a hole) and Nair to combo more or less keeps Lucas in a position where he can shield pressure at least one for some time or at the least keep them occupied and due to that aggressive playstyle means that if the other player wants to go in they risk punishing their own team-mate. That said.... yeah there's definitely better (my hypothetical situation obviously has quite a few 'holes' or scenarios where that just obviously fails) and Ness certainly has more options in this regard, I just think that Lucas doesn't fall as short as you make him out to, Gashi.

Anyway, hey guys, good to see you again. Probably won't be around as much these days but i'd like to hear more about other MUs. I remember back when I used to frequent here that people got annoyed with me for talking too specifically about my mains, so it'll be fun to contribute to other stuff every now and then. :-)

 

[PKBeam]

Actually pidge you made a great post on the page I left when you talked about subjectivity and opinion. Ah wellsies. :3

I think Lucas has the capabilities to be at around the same level as Ness on that hypothetical tier list.
I agree with this, probably same tier
Magnet cancel to Dair is very rarely punished by most grounded opponents
That'd only work if they don't know about it...?
(save a couple. MK can die in a hole) and Nair to combo more or less keeps Lucas in a position where he can shield pressure at least one for some time or at the least keep them occupied and due to that aggressive playstyle means that if the other player wants to go in they risk punishing their own team-mate. That said.... yeah there's definitely better (my hypothetical situation obviously has quite a few 'holes' or scenarios where that just obviously fails) and Ness certainly has more options in this regard, I just think that Lucas doesn't fall as short as you make him out to, Gashi.

Anyway, hey guys, good to see you again. Probably won't be around as much these days but i'd like to hear more about other MUs. I remember back when I used to frequent here that people got annoyed with me for talking too specifically about my mains, so it'll be fun to contribute to other stuff every now and then. :-)

Comments in bold

 

[Luco]

Kind of. Dair is one of Lucas' safer moves, I remember noticing when I left for a little bit that Lucas players were using it more and more. It stops a lot of stuff (really notable example is an aerial MK upB, but not the grounded one :'( ) and also leads into things and sets up the Dtilt lock if you're lucky. In dubs the use is better because you're either shield pressuring them or damaging them and probably putting them in a position where your partner can capitalise. That said, dubs is pretty chaotic and that's why all of these hypothetical scenarios we like to throw out tend to be more situational than they seem.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I think Lucas has the capabilities to be at around the same level as Ness on that hypothetical tier list.

Does Lucas have a move that can almost infinitely wall 2 opponents at the same time with literally zero commitment? No. So there is no way Lucas is anywhere near Ness on the list. Ness is Top 10 in dubs easy, Lucas is like, 15-18 roughly at best. Never said Lucas is bad in dubs, Ness is just better in so many ways and can play Lucas' role on a team plus many more while doing them just as well if not better.