Official SWF Tier List v8

[Luco]

There aren't really any solo Ness mains anymore; FOW switched to MK and Shaky co-mains Ness alongside ZSS now (if not having fully switched to ZSS). idk about Japan.

Shaky lives in a region where one of their best players plays (arguably) the best character for healing Ness (ZSS) so they ran a healing team.

FOW has had an MK for quite a while so I imagine in dubs he'd mostly (if not always) go MK, a better character in dubs. I saw him team with ZeRo that one time and win, but outside of that I've only seen his MK in dubs (except the time he teamed with Mekos...lol)

...There aren't really any other notable Ness mains AFAIK.

Mekos pretty much always ran healing teams too, whether with ESAM, Larry, or FOW XD I don't think I've seen him team with anybody else. He's pretty picky with his teammates and will often say things like "I'm not travelling to this tourney unless I can secure a good partner for dubs"

Dunno who Pink Fresh teams with. I don't really follow MD/VA that much.
I know FAE teamed with Bio (a ZSS) back when Bio still played. Don't even know if FAE still plays
The only other Lucas players I've seen in doubles are Blacktwins (who teams with my ZSS lol) and the japanese ones that run the healing anubis, but without the healing the anubis factor is gone and then the whole team falls apart...

You also seem to be forgetting that even the PKKids are still decent/good without healing, you're still better off teaming with a character that CAN heal you. And they aren't good to the extent that somebody who in singles plays a not-great character in dubs (eg a Marth/Falco/ICs player) would pick them up just for dubs, because you could just pick up MK/Wario for dubs instead.

That's.... kinda my whole point. Why are we arguing? XD

EDIT: Also....

5000th post! *happy*

 

[Man Li Gi]

What I can say about this entire argument: Ness is flat out better than Lucas in dubs. Lucas is not the worst in dubs, but gets outclassed by Ness in every way possible in dubs. This doesn't make Lucas awful in dubs, but just outclassed.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

What I can say about this entire argument: Ness is flat out better than Lucas. Lucas is not the worst, but gets outclassed by Ness in every way possible. This doesn't make Lucas awful, but just outclassed.

ftfy

 

[Man Li Gi]

ftfy

Don't be rude about it.

 

[Thor]

ftfy

Last I checked, Ness's usmash doesn't KO at... well, any percent (I mean, I guess if you like sudden death...).

Lucas's usmash KOs pretty early. His dsmash also can KO (great read versus Olimar landing with whistle), and his fsmash is probably more useful. He can also zap jump and he's got a tether recovery and magnet pull for recovery, while you have to clank his PK thunder, not just touch it, to gimp him. His PK fire is also better for zoning than Ness's PK fire (Admittedly, Ness has fair, but PK fire by Lucas is longer range).

Ness is still a better character, but he's definitely not outclassed in every way. The problem is that these benefits are negligible and completely negated by the right teammate in doubles (saving you during recovery or distracting edgeguarders, KOing or KO setups for Ness fsmash, fair zones faster than PK fire), which is why he's outclassed in doubles. [I'm sure Lucas mains know more strengths Lucas has over Ness, this list was off the top of my head).

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Last I checked, Ness's usmash doesn't KO at... well, any percent (I mean, I guess if you like sudden death...).

I guess MK is a bad character too

Not gonna bother responding to the rest of your post because I honestly don't give a rat's ass.

 

[Thor]

I guess MK is a bad character too
Not gonna bother responding to the rest of your post because I honestly don't give a rat's ***.

I never said a lame/not KOing usmash makes a character bad. I said it means Ness doesn't outclass Lucas in every single way.

Or you could learn to read what I say the first time.

 

[socandrewcer]

Why don't we just ban both Ness and Lucas

 

[infiniteV115]

That's.... kinda my whole point. Why are we arguing? XD

My point was that you can't expect there to be decent results for non-healing Ness/Lucas teams in dubs because all the worthwhile Ness/Lucas players happen to run healing teams, so you can't argue that the lack of decent results for non-healing Ness/Lucas teams is due to the fact that Ness and Lucas are bad in dubs outside of healing

 

[Z'zgashi]

Lucas IS bad without healing in dubs though. That's why you'll literally like, never see guys like Mekos team with a non-healing teammate. Ness, however, is still good without healing (better wth it though of course), which is the entire point I was making in the first place.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Can this dubs talk be in its own thread?

 

[Thor]

Can this dubs talk be in its own thread?

Would temporarily retitling the thread "its own thread" make you feel better?

In a way though, we are discussing Ness and Lucas as they relate to the tier list (why Ness is better than Lucas, thus the gap known as Yoshi and Luigi in the regular tier list, which would be larger in a doubles tier list). Also, this is still better than the usual ****** we get about Jigglypuff not being a bad character.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Alright then. Those days of yore ruined the almighty thread.

 

[Luco]

My point was that you can't expect there to be decent results for non-healing Ness/Lucas teams in dubs because all the worthwhile Ness/Lucas players happen to run healing teams, so you can't argue that the lack of decent results for non-healing Ness/Lucas teams is due to the fact that Ness and Lucas are bad in dubs outside of healing

Alright then, that is fair. But even considering, with a massive lack of results in that sector (and even if we know why, I believe this point still stands), are we really ready to put them in different tiers? I can see why, theoretically, you might. I don't think we should without some kind of supporting evidence, and I suppose this would be the issue with a doubles tier list - top players tend to have particular combos and ideas in their head when they pick the characters they do, so to judge a character outside of that becomes very difficult. Tbh, even in our case, considering a non-healing Ness is in no way better than a healing ness, I feel the same should apply to Lucas. if we're going to do this based on character potential, then sure it's nice to know that Ness can hold his own better than Lucas but at the end of the day, we don't know whether a non-healing Ness would go that far and that also goes for Lucas. Their maximum potential is the healing strat, so I believe they should be judged based off that criteria. Versatility is certainly nice and I don't deny that at all, I just think that at the end of the day, we happen to know that both characters with the healing strat go very, very far, and we have no idea about non-healing strats except for in low-mid level competition.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Would temporarily retitling the thread "its own thread" make you feel better?

In a way though, we are discussing Ness and Lucas as they relate to the tier list (why Ness is better than Lucas, thus the gap known as Yoshi and Luigi in the regular tier list, which would be larger in a doubles tier list). Also, this is still better than the usual ****** we get about Jigglypuff not being a bad character.

Imo Yoshi > Ness and Lucas > Luigi so...

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Lucas IS bad without healing in dubs though. That's why you'll literally like, never see guys like Mekos team with a non-healing teammate. Ness, however, is still good without healing (better wth it though of course), which is the entire point I was making in the first place.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hdCJMMnnJ8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrRCxXzbcnk

 

[Z'zgashi]

M2K is the exception cuz he's M2K.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

M2K is the exception cuz he's M2K.

Doesn't matter you said literally never.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Doesn't matter you said literally never.

 

[Thor]

Doesn't matter you said literally never.

No he said (as of the way you quoted it)

That's why you'll literally like, never

Notice the word, "like" (I bolded, underlined, and italicized it), which implies "just about" in this context. And M2K is the (usual) exception that the "like" in his sentence was put in place for (Nairo, Zero, and some others probably also fit this bill, though Nairo + not ADHD has almost never happened for the past ~2 years, if not literally never).

I already said you should learn to read a post the first time (It was in the context of my posts, but I'd hoped you'd apply it as a general rule).

Ness > Lucas, by some indeterminate amount. It might just be a "top of this tier, bottom of this tier" thing. They might be in different tiers but adjacent because of how the list breaks down. We won't know unless a list is made of potential in doubles assuming specific strategies (healing, anubis, no gimmick (MK on top in that one, Wario would be high here too for sure), bucketing, other stuff I don't know about...).

 

[tekkie]

everyone is wrong about everything; i've nitpicked all of your posts, found words and phrases that are technically wrong when construed literally, no matter how tangential to your intentions, and pointed them out, and thus overcome and dominated your arguments

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

everyone is wrong about everything; i've nitpicked all of your posts, found words and phrases that are technically wrong when construed literally, no matter how tangential to your intentions, and pointed them out, and thus overcome and dominated your arguments

That's how internet arguments work right?

 

[Hippieslayer]

That's how internet arguments work right?

How the internet also works is you stop replying to people when they've wrecked your **** and reply to something irrelevant instead. Thereby attempting to show your superiority by ignoring your opponent meanwhile hoping to get something else going that can cover up your total failure.

 

[infiniteV115]

HOLY CRAP I REMEMBER YOU IT'S HIPPIESLAYER I HAVEN'T SEEN YOU IN AGES DUDE ****ING CAPSLOCK

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

How the internet also works is you stop replying to people when they've wrecked your **** and reply to something irrelevant instead. Thereby attempting to show your superiority by ignoring your opponent meanwhile hoping to get something else going that can cover up your total failure.

Arguing with those idiots would imply that I don't know my posts are **** already

 

[Hippieslayer]

I am afraid you have comitted cognitive error. Kindly defenestrate thyself.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I am afraid you have comitted cognitive error. Kindly defenestrate thyself.

I'm on the first floor, walking out the door would accomplish the same goal and I wouldn't have to clean up any glass afterwards.

And using big words doesn't make you sound smart, especially when you spell them wrong

Let's get this back on topic before Lord Shaya appears and starts handing out infractions.

I forget what you were all talking about, Ness and Lucas in dubs or something? Ness is good. Lucas is less good. Talk about something relevant to the actual tier list now.

 

[Man Li Gi]

DK is the best mid tier by far.....He should be top of C- tier or added to the borderline C tier. There you go, now discuss and argue.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

DK is ****ing stupid. His whole moveset is effectively invincible I hate him so much.

Ban DK.

 

[ぱみゅ]

DK is too good, he has many even Matchups against Top Tiers, and even their anti-DDD metagame has evolved.

 

[infiniteV115]

Sonic and Ike are both better than DK.

DK gets stomped on by like all of the top 3 (each of those MUs is -2 at best for DK), and outside of Snake and Marth he gets beaten solidly by the rest of top tier.

Sonic does better against MK, and about the same as DK against ICs/Oli. The rest of his top tier MUs aren't as bad overall; he does better against Pikachu, significantly better against ZSS, and slightly worse against Snake. The rest of top tier is about the same. He also significantly better against DDD and he doesn't get beaten solidly by anybody else really (except Lucario) whereas DK has to deal with DDD and also loses pretty badly to Fox and Pit from what I understand.

Ike does about the same as DK against MK and Oli (imo slightly better against MK) and significantly better against ICs. He also does much better against Pikachu, Wario, ZSS, Falco. The same/slightly better against Snake, same/slightly worse against Marth, and idk about Diddy but I imagine that Ike does slightly better. And again, no -4 against DDD and outside of top tier all his MUs are pretty manageable (I guess he also loses pretty badly to Fox though?)

 

[Man Li Gi]

DK worse than Ike? Debatable
DK worse than Sanic? You pushed it too far.

I cry fowl as DK on paper is -2 against Falco, but many Falcos can't handle DK. If for some reason the Falco decides to fight DK (less camping, but aggro), DK is more than ready to defeat the bird.

Sanic does better against MK than DK? Bro, Sanic is outranged, overpowered, and not fast enough for MK. Sanic may have a slightly easier time racking damage, but with the lack of a reliable KO move and much lower range than DK, I find that hard to believe.

The Pit and Fox MU is pretty tough as both are mobile and have projectiles that just bog DK down, but still holds only a -2. Why you ask? It really is stage dependent. DK has enough power and tools to take them on in BF, swelters in FD, and is at slight disadvantage on SV.

NO way does IKE do better against MK than DK. Ike's only OoS is his jab. His only attack that is even realistic to consistently use is Jab, Nair, Bair, and Fair. Those moves aren't going to cut it. I see the only place Ike outshines DK is in the KD3 MU, but many advancements have been taken to deal with the KD3 CG.

 

[Z'zgashi]

DK >>>> Ike/Sonic. Also, Sonic is trash, he's barely better than Yoshi lol.

/6 years experience fighting X

 

[-LzR-]

DK is definitely a solid character, but a lot about it is about one little mistake killing you at 40% even if the MU itself is pretty easy.

 

[Man Li Gi]

....And great range in majority of his attacks, mobility for the size, and survivability. The KO power is bonus/well welcomed.

 

[-LzR-]

I'm not doubting that. He is definitely solid. Great range and surprisingly mobile. I just mean't that his ease of getting ridiculously early kills kinda makes him appear better than he really is. I totally respect DK as a character, I get beaten by one on a regular basis.

 

[Z'zgashi]

DK is easily best in Mid Tier imo. If I had to arrange the current mid tier, Id say DK first, then Kirby, then Ike, then Ness/Sheik/Sonic/Yoshi are all pretty interchangeable (imo just place them based off results or something, so I guess like Sonic > Ness > Yoshi > Sheik atm? Really dont care about the order). And before anyone asks, Sheilda imo shouldnt even be considered its own character hence why it's not listed.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

DK is easily best in Mid Tier imo. If I had to arrange the current mid tier, Id say DK first, then Kirby, then Ike, then Ness/Sheik/Sonic/Yoshi are all pretty interchangeable (imo just place them based off results or something, so I guess like Sonic > Ness > Yoshi > Sheik atm? Really dont care about the order). And before anyone asks, Sheilda imo shouldnt even be considered its own character hence why it's not listed.

Does this mean you think ROB is high tier? Or are you talking about "Mid Tier" as the current tier list is listed, and not including "Upper Mid Tier"

I'm going to assume the latter because I don't think you're crazy.

 

[Z'zgashi]

The latter

 

[ぱみゅ]

If it weren't because Transformation as a move is unnecessarily slow, plus takes YEARS to load, Shielda would've been much more viable.
I still think it's viable against DDD.