Official SWF Tier List v8

[Grim Tuesday]

DK's bair isn't better?

 

[Seagull Joe]

DK's bair isn't better?

It hits harder (slightly), but it isn't safer to use. It's also got a much larger hurtbox.

's bair is good because it comes out on frame 6, has very good range, can auto-cancel, cannot be shield grabbed when spaced, can string into itself, does 13% fresh, and can kill when not stale.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Wolf's bair isn't the best but it's better than DK's.

 

[-LzR-]

DKs bair is only good because of it's great range. Other than that it's inferior to like every great bair in the game. Oh and it's also very unsafe for a longranged bair.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I like Jigglypuff's bair.
Even though it's mediocre.

Mostly because I made a Jigglypuff plush once, in her 'bair' pose and everyone I showed it to thought it was her **** sticking out to the side.

 

[Desu~]

I made a Jigglypuff plush once, in her 'bair' pose and everyone I showed it to thought it was her **** sticking out to the side.

Oh, that has to be the most painful story i've ever heard.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Bowser has the best bair obviously.

 

[infiniteV115]

I was 0-deathed by a Bowser main (Pappy) in pools at IMPULSE 2013, he baired me combo'd me and then baired me offstage and then baired me out of my jump and edgehogged me

So I agree with Z'z on this one

 

[DeLux]

Hold up

Pump the brakes

Did I read a bunch of Bair Why 2013?

I'm a prophet

All bow down at the altar of Back Air

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

Hold on guys, I'm pretty sure the best bair is Kirby's by a wide margin. I mean he uses it for everything. It's like he practically doesn't need the rest of his moveset!

 

[FredFuchs]

isn't ddd's bair also one of the best?

 

[Ghostbone]

Kirby's bair is pretty amazing, tricks people into thinking he's a usable character.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Hey guys, serious question.

If everyone could actually perfectly execute every hidden thing each character has, would the tier list change a bunch? Think of perfect warlock jumps, Jigglypuff using all of her crazy footstool stuff, every time Diddy Kong threw out a banana other people used their infinites they can against him, where a tire from Wario could get him infinited as well, all these kind of tiny things I see while rummaging through guides.

I'm just curious as to why a bunch of things I see and read about are almost never used, is it just laziness? And if someone learned how to do it all perfectly would they be the next big thing?

 

[DeLux]

Hey guys, serious question.

If everyone could actually perfectly execute every hidden thing each character has, would the tier list change a bunch? Think of perfect warlock jumps, Jigglypuff using all of her crazy footstool stuff, every time Diddy Kong threw out a banana other people used their infinites they can against him, where a tire from Wario could get him infinited as well, all these kind of tiny things I see while rummaging through guides.

I'm just curious as to why a bunch of things I see and read about are almost never used, is it just laziness? And if someone learned how to do it all perfectly would they be the next big thing?

I wrote a thread on innovation diffusion theory http://smashboards.com/threads/so-you-want-to-innovate-your-play-basics-on-getting-better.336364/

Essentially that would explain why things don't get added. Sometimes things don't have tangible relative advantages, they aren't compatible with how people want to play, they are too complex, it's too obscure for trialability, there isn't an observable trend of anyone else using said option.

Technically speaking there is usually an S-Curve of innovation adoption for successful innovations. Assuming it's a good enough innovation via the five factors, there will be early adopters followed by a mass wave of adopters until it caps out with late adopters. At some point innovations tend to hit critical mass (at least if they are successful) where if applied to a fighting game, someone is no longer competitive if they fail to adopt the innovation.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Bowser can also potentially CG all character barring DK, Yoshi & Jiggaly. Also, the rest of his GR options, even if his CG isn't garanteed (AR is garanteed on a few characters, but forcing a GR isn't garanteed).

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

DK is underrated.

Cool, another member of potential tier

 

[Lzuigirox]

Let's talk about luigi, he should be SSS tier.

 

[Desu~]

Hey guys, serious question.

If everyone could actually perfectly execute every hidden thing each character has, would the tier list change a bunch? Think of perfect warlock jumps, Jigglypuff using all of her crazy footstool stuff, every time Diddy Kong threw out a banana other people used their infinites they can against him, where a tire from Wario could get him infinited as well, all these kind of tiny things I see while rummaging through guides.

I'm just curious as to why a bunch of things I see and read about are almost never used, is it just laziness? And if someone learned how to do it all perfectly would they be the next big thing?

Basically, what i would suggest, is that players should start exploiting the PS feature.
I know it sounds extreme, but i just know that if someone was to use PS with efficiency, people would be able to achieve greater heights.
It's dumb, but it's what i think.

 

[Z'zgashi]

If played at perfect potential, Diddy would never allow anyone to get his banana and would do the infiniting himself.

 

[Ghostbone]

If we consider perfect play, bananas would be useless because everyone would catch all of them.

 

[ぱみゅ]

So would be Snake at top level, everyone would PS his grenades and SDI To his back whenever he Ftilts, and gimp him with ease.

 

[thrillagorilla]

So would be Snake at top level, everyone would PS his grenades and SDI To his back whenever he Ftilts, and gimp him with ease.

Is it possible to get behind Snake from the first hit of f-tilt? I've never tried and the only consistent snake in my region is just over a three hour drive one way.

 

[infiniteV115]

Yes it's possible. I guess the difficulty depends on which hitbox hits you but some people do it just by holding towards Snake

 

[C.J.]

Shaky does it out of GR EVERY SINGLE TIME

So annoying ugh

 

[Djent]

Ugh, "perfect play" ... if one person is playing perfectly, then the other one can't possibly be. That kind of makes it useless for MU discussion, no?

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

"perfect play" = not moving ever.

I'll explain more after I finish babysitting.

 

[NH Cody]

that works for some characters like ICs but not toon link, sonic, or possibly zss

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

K to explain my previous post:
Perfect play = not moving

Moving = putting yourself into situations where you can be punished.

Not Moving = You can never be punished for everything.

Since perfect play means every attack gets Power Shielded, the first person who attacks gets their attack PSed and they get punished for it.

Therefore not moving is better than moving, which means Perfect play entails never moving ever.

Exhibit A

 

[infiniteV115]

I was going to respond seriously but then I realized that I know better

 

[Thor]

Probably not wanted around, but like, z button. Or shield+attack.

Now the game is rock paper scissors - I'm sure what I assign each of them is wrong but rock (shield) beats scissor ("properly spaced" attack), scissors (properly spaced attack) beats paper (grab), and paper (grab) beats rock (unless someone wants to tell me how to powershield a grab because I am almost sure that's impossible).

Throw in spotdoge and stuff could get interesting (beats slow attacks [probably not used because not safe], loses to shield [shield grab], might beat grabs [if like ZSS, not sure about lag time on say Falco's grab or Ike's grab or whomever]).

But if you could read what your opponent was doing before they input the proper frame, then yeah, not moving would be the best strategy. That said, if it takes 2 frames to respond (process and shield/spotdoge/attack), then frame 1 jabs + grabs become the metagame [ex: he's meh and terrible with his other partners but Squirtle, your opponent can't be perfect because they have to guess, if they try to PS their shield is up and has too much lag to avoid Squirtle's grab).

If you cut out a major attack option, yeah the metagame is don't attack (or use attacks safe on perfect shield which I don't think there are...).

I figured perfection assumes reading another's mind accurately which means neither can be perfect (those would be some ridiculous mindgames going on upstairs... lying to make your opponent discount the lies and trying to be unpredictable and such)

Probably still not wanted around so I'll leave again but I do agree with Djent - can't have the bomb that destroys everything ever hit an indestructible fort (perfect vs perfect) - something has to give.

EDIT: I probably should've known better too but I'll leave this up for whomever to mock. It's all that seems to happen 'round here anyway.

 

[thrillagorilla]

I see everyone is demonstrating perfect play perfectly by refusing to post.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Shaky does it out of GR EVERY SINGLE TIME

So annoying ugh

Da bess.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

implying it's difficult to SDI something out of grab release?

 

[Ghostbone]

It's easy to SDI snake's f-tilt when it's telegraphed out of a grab release, similar to how it's easy to SDI falco's dair at the end of the chain-grab.

 

[Freelance Spy]

ICs second, hype!

Nightmare for some.

 

[Sar]

If sopo was a character, where would he be on the tier list?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Somewhere between post 1 and 5 in the tier list 1.0 thread, probably

 

[Shaya]

Like, we could sit down and work out his match ups and come to the pretty conclusion that:
it loses to high tier swordsman horrendously.
doesn't do too badly against the other high tiers and lower due to solo CGing them all to 999% to the ledge followed by a gimping dtilt or fsmash.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Popo does not lose to Marth horrendously.

 

[RaptorTEC]

Yes he does.