And Sakurai will once again ***** about how Smash Bros. shouldn't be competitive, but a party game.
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Official SWF Tier List v8
- Thread starter Marc
- Start date
Borderline tier was great!~
Akenero
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2012
- Messages
- 186
then we all tie him to a chair...and teach him how good competitive play is...
"It's like I'm really playing Pokemon"
Platsy
Smash Mouth
- Joined
- Aug 8, 2012
- Messages
- 559
- NNID
- Cyani-Oxide
I remember hearing somewhere that Miyamoto mains Ganon.
Edit: Disregard that, I was thinking of Sakurai.
MeekSpeedy
Smash Ace
yall nigahs is mad for no reason
def go to tourneys every month. But I haven't been focusing on smash @ all, been playing Injustice and Project M.
GalaxyWaffles
Smash Apprentice
Pit's still too low imo. Very underrated. The Japanese know how to use him very well. We suck at using him. His placement isn't too terrible though. It could be better.
Daisy>Peach. Daisy puts out.
Daisy>Peach. Daisy puts out.
Player-1
Smash Legend
who voted diddy to be 8th? That's going in the right direction, diddy is low tierPeople voted forto be 2nd,
to be 27th,
to be 7th, and
SoulPech
Smash Master
I was expecting a "Fox is bad and shouldn't have gone higher" kind of post, but now i'm disappointed. Then again, sometimes life is full of disappointments.
Yeah, like Jigglypuff not being SSSSSSSSSSSSSS tier
Osennecho
Smash Ace
You misread his post SP. P1 meant that the dude's prediction that he thought Fox would have been higher was a prediction made entirely off of the BBR incompetence. He was basically making a sarcastic trash comment in regards to the current tier list and saying that Fox is bad in one sentence. I'm not sure if I explained this well enough or not... It makes sense to me anyways.
I like to think i lightened the mood in here
@KID: No longer in school. Texas Smash is just dried up in all but two areas.
Tier list is pretty meh. Don't really hate it, but I'm not too fond of it either.
Just seems like a handful of people are upset over the wording of the tiers. Some of the groupings seem kinda icky, but it's not really a big deal.
The only problem is that Sonic is still not above Peach.
Damn the BBR's apathy towards this critical display of ignorance. There shall be blood.
Tier list is pretty meh. Don't really hate it, but I'm not too fond of it either.
Just seems like a handful of people are upset over the wording of the tiers. Some of the groupings seem kinda icky, but it's not really a big deal.
The only problem is that Sonic is still not above Peach.
Damn the BBR's apathy towards this critical display of ignorance. There shall be blood.
GalaxyWaffles
Smash Apprentice
DK behind Kirby? What? Shouldn't it be the other way around?
Lower mid tier should be changed.. I think Mario & Samus should be added there.
Since when did Fox beat G&W?
Lower mid tier should be changed.. I think Mario & Samus should be added there.
Since when did Fox beat G&W?
Fox beat doesn't anybody.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
Sonic should be above Peach, but then so should most of mid tier
Dammit SFP don't say that, that's like a Bat Signal for Dark.Pch!
well that settles it, expect a sequel to yesterday's masterpiece once i'm done my exams
MegaRobMan
Smash Hero
DeDeDe is not mid tier.
A character that nullifies over 2/3rds of the cast is not mid tier. D3 only has one losing matchup with other midtiers (FOX) and only really loses to 4 best characters in the game (plus Falco/Pika).
That's like saying that Sheik in melee is midtier because she only loses to the 3 characters ahead of her and Ice Climbers (= brawl FOX in this comparison) and she nullifies over 2/3rds of the cast.
The rest of it looks good. Peach might be too low.
I encourage all Low Tier tournaments to include Luigi/Lucas/PT.
A character that nullifies over 2/3rds of the cast is not mid tier. D3 only has one losing matchup with other midtiers (FOX) and only really loses to 4 best characters in the game (plus Falco/Pika).
That's like saying that Sheik in melee is midtier because she only loses to the 3 characters ahead of her and Ice Climbers (= brawl FOX in this comparison) and she nullifies over 2/3rds of the cast.
The rest of it looks good. Peach might be too low.
I encourage all Low Tier tournaments to include Luigi/Lucas/PT.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
Because beating characters that no one uses is soooo relevantm.
It's not even a niche thing, MK destroys mid/low tier to the same degree AND doesn't get absolutely bodied by.almost every top tier. D3 has no business being placed high.
It's not even a niche thing, MK destroys mid/low tier to the same degree AND doesn't get absolutely bodied by.almost every top tier. D3 has no business being placed high.
MegaRobMan
Smash Hero
Aren't you the same person who is pissed about stages getting banned because stages that MK gets banned are good for characters that no one plays as?
Rethink your logic and how you apply it places and keep it consistent.
/best troll.
edit: did not know I could say pissed on smashboards.
Rethink your logic and how you apply it places and keep it consistent.
/best troll.
edit: did not know I could say pissed on smashboards.
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
Well if we're going to point fingers like that then I'm pretty sure you were the dude that wanted to get Lylat and Castle Siege banned because you couldn't handle the ledges XD
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
Ban criteria isn't the same thing as tier list criteria
Besides I don't give a **** about stages anymore anyway lo
Besides I don't give a **** about stages anymore anyway lo
Oh man a tier list came out
I think I forgot to vote! I blame the smashboards layout change, it bodied me for a good while. I have disagreements on IC's being in their own tier, if only due to stage and stalling rule variations that can impact them. That tier structure might actually look accurate if the game was only FD BF SV, with no bans (although at that point I would merge IC's and MK into the same S tier at that point).
Ok I'll make a point list of what I would change or do differently:
1. MK and IC's in the same tier (eventually if the game dries up to 3 stages no bans, I think this is inevitable)
2. Cut off top tier at Diddy. High tier sticks out like a sore thumb, that tier NEEDS either Snake and friends or Lucario and friends badly.
3. Lucario D3 and TL should obviously be excluded from Mid Tier tournaments regardless of labeling, and arguably Fox should also go into High Tier/not be Mid Tier allowed. G^W is fine in Mid Tier, Wolf definitely ****in is if we're gonna allow D3 to have his reign of terror lol. I'm confident that most TO's will see Lucario etc and exclude them, even if the label is "upper" mid. People have the option of allowing or disallowing upper and lower tiers I guess.
Bout all I can criticize. Big part of this was community? Seems different I guess.
I think I forgot to vote! I blame the smashboards layout change, it bodied me for a good while. I have disagreements on IC's being in their own tier, if only due to stage and stalling rule variations that can impact them. That tier structure might actually look accurate if the game was only FD BF SV, with no bans (although at that point I would merge IC's and MK into the same S tier at that point).
Ok I'll make a point list of what I would change or do differently:
1. MK and IC's in the same tier (eventually if the game dries up to 3 stages no bans, I think this is inevitable)
2. Cut off top tier at Diddy. High tier sticks out like a sore thumb, that tier NEEDS either Snake and friends or Lucario and friends badly.
3. Lucario D3 and TL should obviously be excluded from Mid Tier tournaments regardless of labeling, and arguably Fox should also go into High Tier/not be Mid Tier allowed. G^W is fine in Mid Tier, Wolf definitely ****in is if we're gonna allow D3 to have his reign of terror lol. I'm confident that most TO's will see Lucario etc and exclude them, even if the label is "upper" mid. People have the option of allowing or disallowing upper and lower tiers I guess.
Bout all I can criticize. Big part of this was community? Seems different I guess.
MegaRobMan
Smash Hero
Nah Lylat is and will always be fine, even though the ledge sucks and I lost a match this past weekend because of it.
Also the subject was switching stages from neutrals to CPs. There is no way that a stage with that many gimmicks plus that ledge should be a neutral (looking at PS1/CS).
CS/PS1 I wanted banned because of people going through the stage and dying. Which is different than FO's people falling through the stage for obvious reasons.
Castle Siege is a bad stage 100% of the way through.
Stages used to be banned because they break the game and because of character specific gimmicks (like Foxes shine is the reason that half the stages are banned in melee). CS has metagame breaking **** when the stage transitions and people will eventually just camp until right before the stage changes and then ground people. PS1 it's easier to avoid because you HAVE TO BE in the middle of the stage when it works, but it's still stupid.
and that ledge.
Also the subject was switching stages from neutrals to CPs. There is no way that a stage with that many gimmicks plus that ledge should be a neutral (looking at PS1/CS).
CS/PS1 I wanted banned because of people going through the stage and dying. Which is different than FO's people falling through the stage for obvious reasons.
Castle Siege is a bad stage 100% of the way through.
Stages used to be banned because they break the game and because of character specific gimmicks (like Foxes shine is the reason that half the stages are banned in melee). CS has metagame breaking **** when the stage transitions and people will eventually just camp until right before the stage changes and then ground people. PS1 it's easier to avoid because you HAVE TO BE in the middle of the stage when it works, but it's still stupid.
and that ledge.
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
Yup. Still a scrub
MegaRobMan
Smash Hero
I wasn't aware that was up for debate.
Pierce7d
Wise Hermit
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2006
- Messages
- 6,289
- 3DS FC
- 1993-9028-0439
I wish we talked far more often. By far the smartest thing said on the thread. Everything else is borderline nauseating to read.Yay I called MK as first and ICs as second 5 years ago and now it happend
Was reading through the bigger part of this thread and for me it seems like the brawl community have the same "problem" as the melee community has when it comes to tierlists. WHY is everyone putting so much focus on results?
If results is THAT important why is it even necessary to vote in the first place?
Results are fact and personal preference is a opinion. I don't understand why the system should be based on opinons when everyone use results (facts) as the clear argument.
However I have a lot of times said when I have been talking about this topic with melee players that I don't think results are THAT important when it comes to tierlists.
Of course it all comes down to what the community want the tierlist to represant (maybe it excist some generall rule for it I don't know) but I do think some kind of "human level"/potencial should be what the tierlist represent. By putting so much effort into the results you basically just say who the top players are without thinking about how good the chars truley are.
I also think the "lazy" way of thinking that becomes a results of this "results-based" lists is a problem for many players. Because you don't put as much time to understand
- What works in every single situation.
-How to cover options
- How to edgeguard/recover
- Punish game
- deffensive parts
-etc
If you think about that enough you will most likely get a better clue on how good the chars are. You will also UNDERSTAND them much better. So you will also improve more as a player because you now know how to play because you have more knowledge.
I hate to use myself as a example but in this case I do think it is a pretty good one and I don't follow the brawl community so I don't know any really good example (even if it exists a lot of them).
Me vs Hbox in melee is a perfect example (as I think many brawlers at least heard about on Apex 2012). Before I started to use Y link vs Hbox basically every single player thought the MU was not good at all for Y link. Y link has for such a long time been consider a very bad char. He also have NO results that shows he could have any good MUs against the better chars (Would say Y link vs puff is very even)
After I won A LOT of people talked about how Y link CLEARLY won the MU based on 2 ****ing games where Hbox had no experience in the MU at all. I think this set proved a lot when it comes to how people think when it comes to MUs/tierlists.
Instead of trying to really understand why something works/doesn't work they use results instead cause it's easier. But a easier path is many times not the best path and as a RESULT most people do not improve as much as they could do!
Not a bad list BBR. ICs are annoying and broken, but they don't need their own tier over Diddy and Olimar.
Juggleguy
Smash Grimer
god damnit
Illuvial
Exploring Tallon IV
Borderline tier sounded a lot better than Upper Mid tier that is for sure.
Honestly I have a hard time understanding what these tiers even mean theres too many of them
I'll halp you understand:
Condensed version:
omfg tourneyfag tier: Meta Knight
chaingrabs: Ice Climbers
good characters, mayhaps one or two flaws????: Olimar, Diddy Kong
good characters, mayhaps ten or twenty flaws??//?/?: Marth, Snake, Falco
ok characters and the one that won apix: Pikachu, Zero Suit Samus, Wario
mid tiers that can also be considered high tiers if you wish with all your heart: Lucario, King Dedede, Toon Link
mid tiers, aka meh characters: Wolf, Fox, Mr. Game & Watch, Pit
why is a robot and woman even in this game tier: R.O.B., Peach
bad characters: Kirby, Donkey Kong, Sonic, Ike, Sheilda, Sheik, Ness, Yoshi
VERY bad characters: Luigi, Pokémon Trainer, Lucas
What do you think "F" stands for? tier: Mario, Samus, Bowser, Captain Falcon, Link, Jigglypuff, Zelda, Ganondorf
Condensed version:
omfg tourneyfag tier: Meta Knight
chaingrabs: Ice Climbers
good characters, mayhaps one or two flaws????: Olimar, Diddy Kong
good characters, mayhaps ten or twenty flaws??//?/?: Marth, Snake, Falco
ok characters and the one that won apix: Pikachu, Zero Suit Samus, Wario
mid tiers that can also be considered high tiers if you wish with all your heart: Lucario, King Dedede, Toon Link
mid tiers, aka meh characters: Wolf, Fox, Mr. Game & Watch, Pit
why is a robot and woman even in this game tier: R.O.B., Peach
bad characters: Kirby, Donkey Kong, Sonic, Ike, Sheilda, Sheik, Ness, Yoshi
VERY bad characters: Luigi, Pokémon Trainer, Lucas
What do you think "F" stands for? tier: Mario, Samus, Bowser, Captain Falcon, Link, Jigglypuff, Zelda, Ganondorf
TKD
Smash Lord
Not being able to beat a character that no one uses is the biggest reason Salem beat everyone, and Esam took like 100 stocks from the opposing crew at Apex.
Best post in this thread.
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2009
- Messages
- 11,841
My favorite part is how you can tell how unbalanced this game is just by looking at the amount of tiers
other games
S:
A:
B:
C:
brawl
SS:
S:
A+:
A-:
B:
C+:
C:
C-:
D:
E:
F:
It's like regurgitated alphabet soup.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
Non-weighted MU spreads are relevant. The reason why MK MU is weighted so heavily (and why he's so popular and his has own tier) is because he has the best non-weighted MU spread in the game. You can't even weigh MUs without valuing non-weighted ones first, it's impossible.
Also, I know no one cares about the lower tiers, but Jiggs seems incredibly underrated. I know my opinion doesn't mean much because I'm not a good player, but multiple jumps plus good air speed give her the ability to run away once she gets the lead. Not saying she's good but that's certainly a trait that most of bottom tier would kill for. She probably also has better MUs against characters like MK Falco and Diddy than the other bottom tieriers.
Her problem is that she's underrepresented and her optiomal play-style (running away) is unappealing and mentally stressful.