Official SWF Tier List v8

[Grim Tuesday]

The MU chart is only a part of the tier list tho

Puff is underrated, but not really for the reasons you said imo. Her biggest advantage over the other low tiers is safety; she basically never has to feel pressured (because pound + mobility + jumps), which is a really strong trait to have if you are a patient player and you can properly abuse her offensively (solid grab game, decent pressure off of an aerial, b-reversed pound punishing, Rest for early KOs, etc... - a lot of Puffs don't play her often enough to abuse all of this though). In terms of running away, she can do it, but I think it's a sub-optimal tactic to completely avoid combat; her vertical mobility (especially fall speed) is still pretty awful so making a wrong move whilst going for a time out can lead to a really hard punish. Instead, ideal Puff imo should play super campy but still put some degree of pressure on the opponent where possible.

A lot of her weaknesses stem from misconceptions; not very good damage output (blatantly false), poor KO ability (she isn't the best at it, but it's largely MU and lead-dependent, and it's nowhere near as bad as, say, Samus), bad range (not a problem in practice because of her mobility and ability to not commit), etc... The worst one is that if a character has a decent move that out-ranges her aerials, the MU is therefore unwinnable or close to it. I've proven this wrong so many times for so many characters, you can't beat an entire character with a single move and she has multiple safe counters to things like Snake's tilts, G&W's tilts and smashes, Dedede's back air, etc...

In terms of match-ups, MK is her worst imo and I'd say it's near unwinnable. He has so many ways to shut her down in every situation, it's ridiculous. I don't like giving MU ratios anymore, but her Falco and Diddy MUs aren't particularly amazing in my experience, none of them are if the opponent learns the MU unfortunately. With that said, I think all of her MUs are realistically winnable in tournament apart from MK (including Snake, Olimar, G&W, etc...) which is pretty good for a bottom tier.

No one plays her because she's hard, boring, other characters do what she does better and she is REALLY crap if you play her linearly, and that seems like all she is capable of at face value, so heaps of people pick her up "for the lolz" and are like "wow, this character is so ****" cause they just spam SH fair over and over.

/endrant

 

[-LzR-]

I feel like Puff has a ridiculous followup potential for some reason. It's almost like playing Melee. I don't know why it happens, but Puff can do it better than most of the cast.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Yeah, I personally think Jiggs is better than Falcon/Link and sitting around Bowser/Mario. Samus' zair imo is the best low tier.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I feel like Puff has a ridiculous followup potential for some reason. It's almost like playing Melee. I don't know why it happens, but Puff can do it better than most of the cast.

That would be a side effect of her superior aerial mobility

Yeah, I personally think Jiggs is better than Falcon/Link.

That's what I think too.

I mean, she's still SSSSSSSSSSSS tier, but that's definitely better than Falcon

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Samus' zair would be good if it was on literally anyone else, I think lol.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Well obviously it would, cuz that move is ****ing amazing. But idk how anyone can argue against her being any worse than any other low tiers, even Mario (who is above her for some odd reason), with guys like Quik doing so good with her. Of course, he still uses mostly ZSS, but Samus is a bad character, so its to be expected, but you literally dont see ANY other low tiers being played by ANYONE at as high of levels or placing as high as Quik does with Samus.

 

[No_Skillz]

So i heard 2 marths, not 1, but 2 marths outplaced every Falco, Olimar, IC's, Snake, and diddy at apex. but perhaps i heard wrong

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Well obviously it would, cuz that move is ****ing amazing.

I was implying that it's not good on Samus, fyi

 

[Z'zgashi]

Yeah shes just too tall and falls too slow to really abuse it anywhere near as well as almost everyone else in the game could. The move is still good enough to carry her from total ass to not as garbage as the rest of the trash though imo.

 

[Dre89]

Grim- If the opponent outranges her with similar frame data or with a disjoint then yes that match is basically unwinnable at the top level of play assuming the opponent knows the MU equally as well.

I also agree Samus is a tier above the likes of Bowser and Mario. Samus is safe and zair is a top tier move. Not being able to KO isn't the end of the world when you can just take games to time. Bowser is probably bottom tier, he's not safe and he's incredibly linear both in recovery and offence. I think he's probably bottom three, behind Link.

 

[Illuvial]

I agree with the Samus placement 100%. I used to think she was I'm Hyrule tier, but the more I play with and against Samus the more I see how good she is compared to other low tiers. I don't get why peiple bash her lack of KO power when Toon Link has the same issue but has great success taking games to time. All in all, I would say top of low tier honestly, and if her recovery wasn't so balls I would put her in mid tier.

Another thing I don't agree with is the Lucas placement. I feel like he should be at least 2 spaces up, but I have little experience with him, so who knows! I have a friend who mains Lucas, and Lucas' tools seem to be pretty useful overall.

Also, does anyone else laugh at the fact that the final post in the v7 tier thread is "Sonic is pretty bad."?

 

[pidgezero_one]

How do you even regurgitate '+'s from your alphabet soup.

You're a wizard or some **** man.

Dude it's just a sideways X

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Also, does anyone else laugh at the fact that the final post in the v7 tier thread is "Sonic is pretty bad."?

Now I want to go find the last post in every tier list thread.

brb

 

[Armada]

I wish we talked far more often. By far the smartest thing said on the thread. Everything else is borderline nauseating to read.

If you feel for talking you can just PM me or add me on FB (then better to send a PM on FB cause I don't go trough that friendlist so often )
=)

But yeah thanks!

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Tier List V1
This thread has run its course.
-Alphazealot

Tier List v2
Dear lord...

Was the second tier list seriously just necro'd?

We're on number four, guys, seriously. :\

...And it seems that this wasn't even the first time, jeez.
-KitaMerby

Tier Lst v3 (this one was actually closed BEFORE the V2 thread was closed)
Closing discussion on this because YOU ARE ALL this list is obsolete.
-Aisight

Tier List v4
What the **** is this ****?
-Mic_128

Tier List v5
I got a good laugh out of ripples post though, it was worth it.
-Browny

Tier List v6
v7 is out, please take all tier list discussion there: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=321738
-Marc

Tier List v7
sonic is pretty bad tho
-Tesh

imo tier lists 2, 3, 4 and 7 had the best endings

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Grim- If the opponent outranges her with similar frame data or with a disjoint then yes that match is basically unwinnable at the top level of play assuming the opponent knows the MU equally as well.

Hypothetical situation; you are G&W and Jigglypuff jumps into you with her back facing toward you, no matter what aerial she does, you can out-range it with dtilt.

G&W's dtilt-centric options:
#1: Dtilt pre-emptively.
#2: Dtilt on reaction.
#3: Don't dtilt

Jigglypuff's options:
#1: Bair (spaced at the tip)
#2: Bair (whiff, slightly out of dtilt range)
#3: Nothing (slightly out of dtilt range)
#4: Weave back to original position
#5: Second jump

IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER:
If G&W whiffs the dtilt at close-range, Puff can punish it (9 frame cooldown - enough to bair [only just], nair, walk forward > ftilt, dash grab or dash attack).

Hopefully I don't have to go through some complicated sequence of events to show you why Puff doesn't auto-lose when a character out-ranges her, that list above should be enough. But I'll mention a few things anyway:
Whenever Puff jumps towards G&W like this, he is put in a situation where a single slight mistake will cause him to get hit - however, Puff jumping toward G&W is not a commitment for Puff (this is what I was talking about before) because she can say "Nuh-uh, I don't like where this is going" at almost any point. This is called pressure, and it's something that you usually can't put on the opponent when your MU against them is unwinnable, which is strange because you already established that MUs like this are unwinnable for Puff. Hm.

Also note how every option I listed doesn't just secure a safe getaway for Puff, it also doesn't relinquish her pressure on G&W. The fade away (option #4) can easily turn into a B-Reversed Pound - a very threatening option as long as you use it sparingly, or it can turn into land > turn around > approaching SH nair (you can mix up nair and bair like this endlessly, both moves have different duration, range and utility, forcing the opponent to be at least somewhat on their toes even with her most basic of approaches). Hell, you could even walk towards the G&W and perfect shield the dtilt if you are very confident with your prediction - worst case scenario you take a bit of damage, best case you get a grab/ftilt/SH fair which gives you stage control and momentum (G&W can't get stage control/momentum like this because Puff's mobility + patience = free access to any part of the stage - I know this sounds ridiculous but it's true, will elaborate if requested). Option #5 lets you do even more tricksies because you are bringing in an entire other axis to help mix up your timing, and you can cross-up to the G&W's opposite side.

MK comes the closest to actually being able to shut down Puff like you're suggesting, but even then it's not the safety of one of his options but the combination of all of them. If he mixes up SH fairs and ftilts properly (as well as GSL when she sneaks in without frame advantage) it's impossible for Puff to get in, but even that can't be replicated 100% in practice and I've taken lots of games off of MKs who are aware of his advantages in the MU.

--------------------
DISCLAIMER: The **** I wrote above implies that Puff has the advantage in like every situation ever. That is blatantly false, G&W has a lot of options that I didn't mention there and this is one of the reasons she has a losing MU versus basically everyone, I was just disproving the misconception that out-ranging Puff = can't lose against her.

Further more, that might seem like ridiculous theory-craft that isn't applicable in a real game, but I do that kind of **** to lots of different players and lots of different characters at least a hundred times in a single set; it's her bread and butter. And if you don't think I'm a good enough player for that to mean anything, look at Melee Hungrybox - "bla bla different game", the principle is still the same though, Melee Puff still gets out-ranged by Marth's fair, how come she wins that match-up?

 

[Jabejazz]

Dude it's just a sideways X

Haha, next you're gonna tell me d's are backward b's.

Also,

what is this

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Haha, next you're gonna tell me d's are backward b's.

Also,


what is this

That's a Stunfisk

 

[Illuvial]

Look up Stunfisk in the anime, you will **** bricks.

 

[Akenero]

Dammit SFP don't say that, that's like a Bat Signal for Dark.Pch!

Dark is in one of his depression states, he's not listening...
also, Pit should go up about, maybe 2-3 more spots, he is very good, but horribly underrated, the ability to reflect projcectiles, any and all of them no less, while also being able to turn someone around and utilize a sheild that is impossible to beat(even if it is laggy) not to mention multiple jumps, a glide, and arguably one of the best, if not THE best recovery in the game, even if does have a shining flaw, he needs to go up a few spots...

On the subject of other characters I feel should move up, Lucas...
He is not the best character by any strech of the imagination, at all.
He's still not the worst, I am glad as a Lucas main myself that he is in lower Mid tier, but, really he did nothing...he has some very fast attacks, good range, and the ability to almost shut down some character's projectiles!
His recovery is amazing, for goodness sakes, zap jumping is THE HIGHEST JUMP IN THE GAME!!! And then he has PK thunder, magnet sliding, whatever, and even a combination of all 3, plus the rope snake!
extremely campy and aggressive playstyles can potentially apply to this character, campy as in the PK fire, PK thunder as a edgeguarding tool (like make it spin so you can't avoid it) PK freeze for long range sniping (and for reads) and even an approach tool, the magnet sliding, if he's being pressured by say, a falco using the "stand back and shoot strategy" which, is really stupid against lucas, lucas can just kinda stay there and force falco to approach, or approach by jumping forward, magnet, jump forward, magnet.
His aggressive playstyle uses approaching PK fires and his gimmicks, the ability to have multi hit attacks while pressuring a sheild with Dtilt, which if that sheild is dropped, or they can't get the grab in, they have to risk taking damage, tripping, rolling(in which case lucas can chase with the rope snake for a good punish) or a spot dodge, which, yeah, keep on Dtilting or grab...he can hold his own if he gets a grab, with the best pummel in the game, and the ability to not only reflect projectiles, but absorb energy ones too!
Yes, he has some bad matchups...THAT DOES NOT MEAN HE'S TERRIBLE!!!It just means he has a little bit of trouble with some characters...I'm not asking him to be in top tier or anything, just move up a spot or two...I mean, look at Mekos for example, he's not that shabby in tourneys...

 

[BlueXenon]

Imo mk has the best recovery by far. He has tornado, 6 jumps, down b, side b, shutte loop, a glide thats refreshed whenever he's hit, he can protect himself with uair's, and he can even wait for edge guarding opponents to be forced to return to the ledge before he recovers.

 

[Akenero]

Imo mk has the best recovery by far. He has tornado, 6 jumps, down b, side b, shutte loop, a glide thats refreshed whenever he's hit, he can refresh his jumps on sv's platform, he can protect himself with uair's, and he can even wait for edge guarding opponents to be forced to return to the ledge before he recovers.

but he can only do one combination of those things, 6 jumps, okay, that's really good, down B is short ranged, side b is punishable, shuttle loop is good, gliding is also good.but with pit, he has pretty much the exact same, but with 5.Seconds.Of free flight...plus the fastest glide in the game...and pit also can protect himself, with fairs, bairs, and dairs...MK is the best character in the game, but pit has one of the best recoveries.

 

[BlueXenon]

Down b isn't short ranged. And mk can use more than one thing in a single recovery. For example he can use 2 jumps with uair's, glide, cancel his glide and down b to the ledge.

 

[DMG]

Pit's recovery is good in pure terms, but MK is completely unrivaled in his ability to protect and overall vary his recovery to the stage. Pit cannot turn into a tornado spontaneously and sweep to the stage lol. It's really up there, but Pit shouldn't go higher just based on his recovery. His onstage game is a bit too average sadly.

MK hands down is the best or near best at recovering in a myriad of situations, further coupled by usually having at least 2 different viable recovery options present in any given scenario. He has flaws but they tend to be from his horizontal air speed or his fall speed, not from his options.

 

[TheFlow]

Toon link, Lucario, and Dedede in mid tiers? This will make mid tiers events way harder for them.

 

[Akenero]

I know pit's recovery is not perfect, just that it is one of his redeeming qualities, and his ground game is not very good, it's mediocre at best, but his air game is pretty decent if you know what you're doing.
look at the japanese, they do know how to use pit, america on the other hand, spam arrows...that's it...
he can be so much more! a -2 against MK as of right now, that's nothing to scoff at! Especially with his placement

 

[NickRiddle]

Lucas is bad, and you should feel bad. He belongs in Low Tier just barely above Luigi.

His best approaching tool is a move that pushes him backwards, and if you're not an terrible you can just shield every one of those PK Fires... and then slowly gain ground on him.

 

[Akenero]

Low Tier just barely above Luigi.

yes, that's what I said, move up a space or two, I know he's bad, he's slightly underrated though.

 

[BlueXenon]

Do all moves stale at the same rate?

 

[infiniteV115]

Some moves don't stale at all but yeah I believe the same multipliers are applied to all moves that stale

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Some moves don't stale at all but yeah I believe the same multipliers are applied to all moves that stale

If by some moves you mean ZSS' Nair then yeah.

Otherwise every other move stales at the same rate. (I can't think of any others that don't stale, feel free to prove me wrong)

 

[sGale]

I'm pretty sure no Zair stales.

 

[infiniteV115]

Pikachu's dair shockwave hitbox when he hits the ground doesn't stale either iirc
Oh and ZSS has some weird property where her nB and sideB stale each other. It's dumb

 

[Dabuz]

Jigglypuff is the worst character.

 

[infiniteV115]

Jigglypuff is the worst character.

bus pls

 

[Iota]

Lol I didn't realize Dabuz still had me sigged

 

[Seagull Joe]

Dabuz is a horrible drawer.

 

[Jabejazz]

Dabuz.jpg

 

[Dre89]

Grim- Assuming GW will always dtilt there is silly because a good GW is not going to repeatedly pick the same option.

Assuming the GW won't always do the same thing there, he has a lot of options you didn't consider. He can just shield, he can run away and aerial or pivot grab, he can charge a smash attack. He can even just stand there to see what you do. There are probably other options I'm not thinking of.

Retreating with empty jumps isn't always safe either. If the GW reads that without committing to anything beforehand he can dash across the ground and pressure your landing or force you to use another jump, which might not be safe either.

Point is for all your pro-puff theorycraft, it can be done in return for GW. You're only going to win this MU as puff if you're significantly better or they don't know the MU. A character with priority on all of his moves plus a much higher margin for error due to weight and KO power will always win assuming MU knowledge and ability to read, adapt, bait etc.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Sounds like that's exactly what I said in the second to last paragraph.
It's almost as if an interaction between G&W and Puff is a complicated mental battle which, while in G&W's favour on the whole, gives Puff ample room to fight back - an indication that the MU is not unwinnable. You do understand the difference between having an advantage in the MU, and the MU being unwinnable - yes?

If he shields, tippered bair is safe on shield, or you can land and grab. If he runs away and does an aerial Puff can chase him and re-start pressure (with extra frame advantage to boot), I already mentioned doing nothing in my last post. Don't respond to this part of the post with "what if G&W did this" please, theory-craft is dumb.

The opponent needs a solid read to catch Puff's retreating jump fyi, cause she has more options than the opponent when they have to chase her like that (usually).