Official SWF Matchup Chart v3.0

[Fuujin]

There's an error with Zelda vs Samus.
It says -1 on Zelda's end but -2 on Samus's end.


Though really like 1/3rd of her match ups are erroneous and you guys did a pretty bad/terrible on it,
but in terms of consistency the Samus/Zelda one is wrong.


I need a good kii,
someone be a dear and post who was on the Zelda panel.
I was B& when yall made this new mess chart.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Maybe if Marth mains used MK they'd win stuff that isn't locals

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Maybe if Marth mains used MK they'd win stuff that isn't locals

SFP we just went over this. All Marth mains DO use MK.

Except Killlock for some reason

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Marth/ICs
-1 or -2

kgo

 

[C.J.]

Could somone explain to me the mechanics of the DDD:Marth matchup and why its +1 DDD. I can't but help think i always play that matchup out wrong.

Much appreciated for a response.

Go to Marth boards. Look for the thread "Overthrow the King" pretty much everything that you need to help.

DDD's moves beat Marth's most solid tools head-on [DDD ftilt > Marth sideB; DDD bair / fair => Marth's aerials] and most of Marth's other moves can get grabbed. DDD kind of lives forever and he has some really lame ledge traps if Marth ever catches the ledge with upB. DDD has a chaingrab against Marth but it's pretty overrated. Ledge traps probably do the biggest damage to Marth.

Yes, the ledge traps are the biggest problems. But DDD has a frame 6 move OoS that leads to Marth being on the ledge from anywhere onstage. If you take the CG out, then Marth beats DDD since Marth can pressure DDD to the ledge a LOT easier than vice versa.

Risk reward in all of these exchanges is horridly skewed in DDD's favour regardless

I wouldn't say "horribly" since it's mostly % dependent, but yes Marth loses the trade.

mr r uses mk, mikeneko uses mk sometimes, mikehaze uses mk, I use mk, killock uses ICs I think? so he doesn't need mk

V115 basically covered this, but Ramin goes Marth when it counts (Apex, SKTAR, etc). He hasn't been going Marth as much recently since he hasn't been playing/practicing and doesn't feel as comfortable as he has in the past.
And MN goes MK in doubles because Marth in doubles is really awkward.

That's definitely wrong. DDD wins the matchup. The only really good Marth I can cite on this (in addition to citing common sense) is Ramin. I know last time I heard he was torn in his opinion on whether or not MK or DDD was Marth's worst matchup.

Ask Ramin who the best Marth vs DDD is =D

Also, DDD on FD is Marth's hardest MU. Followed by MK, then DDD on other stages.

CJ already made an amazing guide on the matchup? Although it is kind of outdated meta wise at this point.

Not really that outdated. Nobody likes playing so methodical and patiently though so w/e. My record vs DDD players, much better than me (such as 4GOD) playing like I outlined is ~even.

It's definitely +1 Dedede
Marth perpetually overrated for reasons I've stated many times before
smh

Yes DDD wins
Marth isn't overrated... at least not by players whose opinions actually matter/I care about. I admit I haven't been in the general forums in a loonngggg time and didn't help w/ the last tier list so I don't know what the random people are saying about him.

Marth vs DDD is even or very slight advantage for DDD

DDD absolutely wins +1.

(if Marth vs Snake and Falco are 0, then this MU is 0 too. Cause Marth has a very slight advantage vs those 2 chars and they are still both 0 in the MU chart ).

It is POSSIBLE to argue that Marth beats Falco if you put a lot of weight on how relevant the 0-death is. But it's not that important at high level so w/e, it's even. I will admit that it is *probably* easier for Marth to make a comeback than Falco because of it, but the weight of the 0-death is minuscule at top level play.

MK is definitely worse for Marth.

Unless you're on FD. On other stages, MK is harder for MK, but not by THAT much.

DDD is easy to juggle (don't jump to juggle him unless he commits with an aerial because he can then just go down with AD + FF cause of his incredible FF and then punish you, just stay on the ground and he has problems landing. He is very predictable with where he lands anyway). If you get DDD to the air then you should be putting a lot of damage on DDD.

Which almost offsets for the weight

The hardest part for Marth in the MU is killing DDD. The best way for Marth to kill is simply edge guarding him because of his mediocre recovery. It doesn't happen too often, but if you grab him when he has no jumps left, you can force ground brakes over and over and he's be forced to up b without being able to avoid getting grabbed at the peak of the up b. It's pretty much an infinite until DDD decides to SD, as long as the Marth doesn't mess up with the grab timing and the timing of his pummels. Without sending DDD offstage, Marth can't really KO DDD below 160 without a tipper Fsmash or something LOL (maybe a fresh tipper Nair can KO at around 150 % IDK).

You forgot tipper dsmash, but yeah if you kill him before ~170 you got an awesome read or the DDD messed up.

The MU can be compared with DK vs Marth,

No, it can't.

another range, weight and power vs disjoints, combos and speed MU. DDD just falls faster, has a few more disjointed tools, a slightly better grab (when talking about this MU) and less possibilities of landing a move which KO's really early than DK does. Less aerial mobility too (which makes it harder for DDD than DK to chase Marth in the air who decides to move away from him). DDD has multiple jumps though which makes it slightly trickier to juggle DDD than DK (for Marth). DDD has huge vertical range on Dair but, it's important to realise that it does have blind spots at the sides of the move (especially one of them, don't remember if it was the front or the back) which are very abusable and prevents the move from being broken as an anti-juggle.

It's not a *slightly* better grab. The CG, which leads from his grab, is the most important difference and LITERALLY makes the difference in the MU. Saying it's only "slightly" is a gross underestimation.
Dair isn't important, like at all. Mentioning it appeals to peripheral processing route so just leave it out lol.

No, Marth is flatly even with Snake / Falco and loses to DDD. The chart's right in this case.

Yup yup!

I honestly believe that Marth's MU chart is accurate to the highest degree possible. I can understand Lucario and Pika being even instead of +1, but I understand them as +1 instead.

what the?
what is your logic in this
dude your posts are getting worse and worse

Probably

I do think that Marth does beat Falco and Snake if only so slightly that a 0 makes complete sense to me. The Marth vs DDD MU also takes longer for Marth to learn than viceversa (DDD has simple tools while Marth has to know a lot of things about DDD). However, when giving MU ratios, you don't take that into account, do you? If that's the case, then it's even or very slight advantage for DDD (an advantage which can be compared with Marth vs Falco for example). Which means that a 0 is more accurate to me in Marth vs DDD.

Well, you're wrong @ Marth beating them. And the advantage that DDD has over Marth is very real, and given the risk/reward of fighting DDD's grab compared to the R/R of Marth/Falco, is much more relevant/important than any possible "advantage" Marth has on Falco.

Ramin still uses Marth the most, he just avoids Marth dittos and Marth vs ICs.

Recently he's going Marth only in friendlies/wifi so he can autopilot for free. But he's practicing Marth for Apex~


@Grim- I will always think Marth/IC is even. It's hard, but when I watch MN vs 9B, NEO vs Vinnie (after he beat dabuz), etc it just seems even.
I will admit that, with the stage list shrinking and shrinking it becomes more reasonable for it to be -1.

Larger stage lists I retain it's even though.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

The common thing I hear about Marth is that he's "really good but so hard to use"
when in actuality, he's slightly worse than the people who say that think
so he has to work extra hard to meet those expectations, i.e. "hard to use"

 

[C.J.]

It's not an entirely inaccurate statement. His margin of error is smaller than other top tier characters (which you can argue means that they're worse, but I disagree with that argument) but his reward, how he keeps positional advantage, and ability to retain momentum from executing well is far better than any character under him.

Other than MK and IC, as skill levels increase, I honestly can't think of a character that gains as much as Marth. So a big issue that you'll come across is how people will define good.
You're seem to be looking at them at present whereas a lot of other people look at it as theoretical or where they'll be in 4 months, 7 months, a year.

However, using that as a fall back excuse is stupid and anyone who uses it should feel bad.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Marth vs ICs is 6/4 for ICs imo.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

^I concur with ze gheb

 

[infiniteV115]

Considering how good Mikeneko is at reading and punishing shields, I'm disappointed by the fact that he seems to never use shield breaker (even when the opponent's shield is low)
I watched him vs 9B (SRT) recently and saw multiple opportunities for him to break 9Bs shield (especially game 2) but he just doesn't go for it; he uses aerials instead. I think if he used shield breaker properly (I'm not saying getting it 100% of the time cause obviously that's unrealistic to expect of him, but actually just implementing it into his gameplay considering he's already so good at reading shields) he could make the MU look even.

Has Mikeneko ever taken a set off 9B? (assuming Marth:ICs ofc)

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Considering how good Mikeneko is at reading and punishing shields, I'm disappointed by the fact that he seems to never use shield breaker (even when the opponent's shield is low)
I watched him vs 9B (SRT) recently and saw multiple opportunities for him to break 9Bs shield (especially game 2) but he just doesn't go for it; he uses aerials instead. I think if he used shield breaker properly (I'm not saying getting it 100% of the time cause obviously that's unrealistic to expect of him, but actually just implementing it into his gameplay considering he's already so good at reading shields) he could make the MU look even.

Has Mikeneko ever taken a set off 9B? (assuming Marth:ICs ofc)

Why is unrealistic to expect it of him? Leon did it to King Kong at Impulse I think 4 or 5 times in game 3 alone, and Leon isn't as good as Mikeneko.

Also Bowser is +4 against ICs so it's much harder to break his shield than ICs.

Flawless logic.

I'm rambling I'll stop now.

inb4stupidresponse

 

[C.J.]

Considering how good Mikeneko is at reading and punishing shields, I'm disappointed by the fact that he seems to never use shield breaker (even when the opponent's shield is low)
I watched him vs 9B (SRT) recently and saw multiple opportunities for him to break 9Bs shield (especially game 2) but he just doesn't go for it; he uses aerials instead. I think if he used shield breaker properly (I'm not saying getting it 100% of the time cause obviously that's unrealistic to expect of him, but actually just implementing it into his gameplay considering he's already so good at reading shields) he could make the MU look even.

Has Mikeneko ever taken a set off 9B? (assuming Marth:ICs ofc)

Strictly speaking, it's not a safe move. MN plays off of the safest option available at the time. It's why his follow-ups are so blah compared to Ramin/Leon.

And no, they've only played that one time AFAIK.

 

[NH Cody]

Lol Ramin is like all MK/Snake nowadays in Europe, I think he didnt pick Marth the last 2-3 Tournaments. (VS. Leon and VS. Dany, who got 2 & 3 last bigger european tournament)

But how should you know, you arent part of our scene, so thats fine

I hope you dont feel offended for getting corrected haha

get owned v115

maybe if you checked tourney results once maybe every...3 years, you would see he has mk next to his name literally every single time

also I like how you go on a random rant about this when all I said was that the marth mains use mk. this is completely true and there is no denying it. why would you go marth vs dedede if you can even remotely use mk xD

 

[infiniteV115]

get owned v115

maybe if you checked tourney results once maybe every...3 years, you would see he has mk next to his name literally every single time

i stand corrected

also I like how you go on a random rant about this when all I said was that the marth mains use mk. this is completely true and there is no denying it. why would you go marth vs dedede if you can even remotely use mk xD

idk ask Ramin he's the Marth player that can use MK but instead uses Marth and ZSS against DDD XD

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

get owned v115

Sorry, only Blacktwins is allowed to own V115

I'm too lazy to link the videos, but I'm sure I've done that enough times already in this thread/the tier list thread.

 

[NH Cody]

Sorry, only Blacktwins is allowed to own V115

I'm too lazy to link the videos, but I'm sure I've done that enough times already in this thread/the tier list thread.

LMAO I STARTED THIS TREND in the top characters video thread

 

[ぱみゅ]

And MN goes MK in doubles because Marth in doubles is really awkward.

Unless you are Fuwa and Tipper Fsmash everyone.

@Grim- I will always think Marth/IC is even. It's hard, but when I watch MN vs 9B, NEO vs Vinnie (after he beat dabuz), etc it just seems even.
I will admit that, with the stage list shrinking and shrinking it becomes more reasonable for it to be -1.

Larger stage lists I retain it's even though.

One more victim of MK's legacy.



Also, Fuujin is right, Zelda/Samus needs to be corrected.
IIRC it was changed to +1/-1

 

[Z'zgashi]

Bowser gets raaaaaaaped by ICs.

 

[| Big D |]

ICs do quite a number on Marth if the ICs know the MU. If ICs make the effort to stay grounded, there isn't a lot Marth can do. If you are going to throw any desyncs out, they need to be grounded or done far away from Marth just to scare him off. Also you don't have to be afraid of hiding in your shield.

 

[Shaya]

It's more like don't do anything at all... Marth can punish every single or desynced action ICs can do.

It's when ICs just sit there... sigh... just sigh.

 

[DeLux]

I think Marth wins the MU imho

He has a sword



And Bowser vs. ICs is even

 

[Shaya]

Or when ICs just go for the dash grab hard reads.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

You're seem to be looking at them at present whereas a lot of other people look at it as theoretical or where they'll be in 4 months, 7 months, a year.

"Potential"

 

[Deleted member 189823]

And Bowser vs. ICs is even

8O!

 

[NH Cody]

delux is right marth wins clearly, given that he has a sword

 

[Seagull Joe]

needs a few matchup changes: to even. to even. to even. to +1. to even. to -1. to -3. to +2.

 

[NH Cody]

wolf vs kirby should be -1

 

[Ishiey]

needs a few matchup changes: to even. to even. to even. to +1. to even. to -1. to -3. to +2.

Wolf wins the first three at +1. Idk about Fox, but I can see the arguments for the rest.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

needs a few matchup changes: to even. to even. to even. to +1. to even. to -1. to -3. to +2.

Wolf vs Fox is even :3

 

[Espy Rose]

Good thing we're never doing another discussion about them.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

needs a few matchup changes: to even. to even. to even. to +1. to even. to -1. to -3. to +2.

How does Ike go even against Ike & DK?

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

How does Ike go even against Ike

Is this actually a question?

 

[LiteralGrill]

Is this actually a question?

I'd say Ike v Ike is +1 is Ike's favor. I mean, let's be real here, Ike just has the exact tool to deal with Ike.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I'd say Ike v Ike is +1 is Ike's favor. I mean, let's be real here, Ike just has the exact tool to deal with Ike.

While that may be true, I feel that Ike manages to counter Ike's tool fairly well, and can deal some major blows to Ike of his own. Because of this, I feel that the only reasonable value for the Ike vs Ike MU is Even.

 

[LiteralGrill]

While that may be true, I feel that Ike manages to counter Ike's tool fairly well, and can deal some major blows to Ike of his own. Because of this, I feel that the only reasonable value for the Ike vs Ike MU is Even.

Hmm... I'll agree with that, I think we can all now agree that Ike vs Ike is even.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Everyone's a comedian.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Everyone's a comedian.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Is this actually a question?

lawl, I actually meant Wolf. How does he fair against Wolf that makes it even.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

lawl, I actually meant Wolf. How does he fair against Wolf that makes it even.

He fairs by facing the opponent, jumping and then flicking the C Stick in the direction he is facing.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You don't have to be facing the opponent to fair, scrub