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Official SWF Matchup Chart v3.0
- Thread starter Ishiey
- Start date
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Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
No, no
Gheb is MY alt account
Gheb is MY alt account
nonono
You're all MY alt accounts.
You're all MY alt accounts.
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
This is my alt account that was originally meant for trolling. My real account where I posted all my genuine opinions and thoughts was called Alien Vision but it got banned for some reason
CourageHound
Smash Ace
Could somone explain to me the mechanics of the DDD:Marth matchup and why its +1 DDD. I can't but help think i always play that matchup out wrong.
Much appreciated for a response.
Much appreciated for a response.
BlueXenon
Smash Lord
Alien Vision was a wifi player and music producer. I still remember him.
DDD's moves beat Marth's most solid tools head-on [DDD ftilt > Marth sideB; DDD bair / fair => Marth's aerials] and most of Marth's other moves can get grabbed. DDD kind of lives forever and he has some really lame ledge traps if Marth ever catches the ledge with upB. DDD has a chaingrab against Marth but it's pretty overrated. Ledge traps probably do the biggest damage to Marth.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
applejack is really sexy
D
Deleted member 189823
Guest
NH Cody
Smash Champion
no gheb your other avi was better you should stick with that one
ぱみゅ
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DDD's Fair/Bair are NOT any better than Math's Nair.
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
He was saying that DDD's bair/fair beat Marth's aerials head-on, not necessarily that they're better
Though regardless I don't think it's fair to say that his fair beats Marth's aerials, it's fairly slow so it's not a reliable counter/response to Marth's fair/nair
Though regardless I don't think it's fair to say that his fair beats Marth's aerials, it's fairly slow so it's not a reliable counter/response to Marth's fair/nair
CourageHound
Smash Ace
I know D3 bair beats Marth fair, but nair as well? The spacing must be tight, no?
Osennecho
Smash Ace
I hate fighting a DDD as Marth... I'd rather play an ICs then Vex again. That damn purple Penguin.
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
Probably depends on the angle. Marth's fair probably wins if he's slightly below DDD. As for nair, I don't know DDD too well so I could easily be wrong on this but I'm thinking Marth's nair would win if at max range and Marth is slightly above DDD?
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
Risk reward in all of these exchanges is horridly skewed in DDD's favour regardless
Desu~
Smash Ace
I really wanted to master the triple D.
Except that Techiyo made me give up so quickly.
Except that Techiyo made me give up so quickly.
Jigglypuff is better anyway.
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
DDD is just a worse version of Jigglypuff anyway
Bobwithlobsters
Smash Journeyman
Who isn't just a worse version of jigglypuff?
Jigglypuff.
NH Cody
Smash Champion
oh and about d3 vs marth, it's probably even, but dedede is such an irrelevant and obscure character that nobody uses that this matchup is irrelevant. all marth mains use mk anyway so what's the point. there are no "super pro" dedede players
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
NH Cody
Smash Champion
mr r uses mk, mikeneko uses mk sometimes, mikehaze uses mk, I use mk, killock uses ICs I think? so he doesn't need mk
Osennecho
Smash Ace
That's definitely wrong. DDD wins the matchup. The only really good Marth I can cite on this (in addition to citing common sense) is Ramin. I know last time I heard he was torn in his opinion on whether or not MK or DDD was Marth's worst matchup.
NH Cody
Smash Champion
ask shaya/cj/pierce 7d to explain this
Osennecho
Smash Ace
CJ already made an amazing guide on the matchup? Although it is kind of outdated meta wise at this point.
ぱみゅ
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That's funny, I used to believe it was even, but CJ himself convinced me it was +1 for DDD
L∈O
Smash Journeyman
This matchup is definitely +1 for King Dedede...
I also think Dedede's MU is worse than MK's MU for Marth...
Even have thought in main DDD to help me against Marth players, 'cause is very difficult for Luigi to win Marth, but I didn't do well...
Beyond this, I would continue to have problems against Meta Knight and Ice Climbers...
I also think Dedede's MU is worse than MK's MU for Marth...
Even have thought in main DDD to help me against Marth players, 'cause is very difficult for Luigi to win Marth, but I didn't do well...
Beyond this, I would continue to have problems against Meta Knight and Ice Climbers...
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
It's definitely +1 Dedede
Marth perpetually overrated for reasons I've stated many times before
smh
Marth perpetually overrated for reasons I've stated many times before
smh
smashkng
Smash Lord
Marth vs DDD is even or very slight advantage for DDD (if Marth vs Snake and Falco are 0, then this MU is 0 too. Cause Marth has a very slight advantage vs those 2 chars and they are still both 0 in the MU chart ). MK is definitely worse for Marth. DDD is easy to juggle (don't jump to juggle him unless he commits with an aerial because he can then just go down with AD + FF cause of his incredible FF and then punish you, just stay on the ground and he has problems landing. He is very predictable with where he lands anyway). If you get DDD to the air then you should be putting a lot of damage on DDD. The hardest part for Marth in the MU is killing DDD. The best way for Marth to kill is simply edge guarding him because of his mediocre recovery. It doesn't happen too often, but if you grab him when he has no jumps left, you can force ground brakes over and over and he's be forced to up b without being able to avoid getting grabbed at the peak of the up b. It's pretty much an infinite until DDD decides to SD, as long as the Marth doesn't mess up with the grab timing and the timing of his pummels. Without sending DDD offstage, Marth can't really KO DDD below 160 without a tipper Fsmash or something LOL (maybe a fresh tipper Nair can KO at around 150 % IDK).
DDD can kill pretty early with Utilt (around 107 fresh?). DDD has a huge grab and lots of range in many of his moves, but Marth can also abuse his lack of mobility very well and most of his moves aren't very safe on block. Also DDD's Bair may have a lot of range but it also extends his hurtbox a lot, something Marth's aerials don't do. And unlike most of Marth's aerials, it doesn't have an arc hitbox. His Fair does have but it has more flaws than Marth's Fair. DDD may have a lot of range on his grab but even then it's still very possible for Marth to space outside his grab range. I've been able to hit aerials without getting shield grabbed most of the time.
The MU can be compared with DK vs Marth, another range, weight and power vs disjoints, combos and speed MU. DDD just falls faster, has a few more disjointed tools, a slightly better grab (when talking about this MU) and less possibilities of landing a move which KO's really early than DK does. Less aerial mobility too (which makes it harder for DDD than DK to chase Marth in the air who decides to move away from him). DDD has multiple jumps though which makes it slightly trickier to juggle DDD than DK (for Marth). DDD has huge vertical range on Dair but, it's important to realise that it does have blind spots at the sides of the move (especially one of them, don't remember if it was the front or the back) which are very abusable and prevents the move from being broken as an anti-juggle.
DDD has his advantages over MK but I find him easier because of his predictability compared to MK (just like the problem G&W has). When DDD is in the air then you know he's gonna Bair you. When at mid range you know he's going to Ftilt you or shield. His lack of mobility makes it pretty difficult for him to cover his intentions. It's a lot harder to read against a smart MK because he has so many options. DDD's run and grab really sucks compared to MK's.
DDD can kill pretty early with Utilt (around 107 fresh?). DDD has a huge grab and lots of range in many of his moves, but Marth can also abuse his lack of mobility very well and most of his moves aren't very safe on block. Also DDD's Bair may have a lot of range but it also extends his hurtbox a lot, something Marth's aerials don't do. And unlike most of Marth's aerials, it doesn't have an arc hitbox. His Fair does have but it has more flaws than Marth's Fair. DDD may have a lot of range on his grab but even then it's still very possible for Marth to space outside his grab range. I've been able to hit aerials without getting shield grabbed most of the time.
The MU can be compared with DK vs Marth, another range, weight and power vs disjoints, combos and speed MU. DDD just falls faster, has a few more disjointed tools, a slightly better grab (when talking about this MU) and less possibilities of landing a move which KO's really early than DK does. Less aerial mobility too (which makes it harder for DDD than DK to chase Marth in the air who decides to move away from him). DDD has multiple jumps though which makes it slightly trickier to juggle DDD than DK (for Marth). DDD has huge vertical range on Dair but, it's important to realise that it does have blind spots at the sides of the move (especially one of them, don't remember if it was the front or the back) which are very abusable and prevents the move from being broken as an anti-juggle.
DDD has his advantages over MK but I find him easier because of his predictability compared to MK (just like the problem G&W has). When DDD is in the air then you know he's gonna Bair you. When at mid range you know he's going to Ftilt you or shield. His lack of mobility makes it pretty difficult for him to cover his intentions. It's a lot harder to read against a smart MK because he has so many options. DDD's run and grab really sucks compared to MK's.
No, Marth is flatly even with Snake / Falco and loses to DDD. The chart's right in this case.
Death Arcana
Rum is for Drinking
smashkng
Smash Lord
I do think that Marth does beat Falco and Snake if only so slightly that a 0 makes complete sense to me. The Marth vs DDD MU also takes longer for Marth to learn than viceversa (DDD has simple tools while Marth has to know a lot of things about DDD). However, when giving MU ratios, you don't take that into account, do you? If that's the case, then it's even or very slight advantage for DDD (an advantage which can be compared with Marth vs Falco for example). Which means that a 0 is more accurate to me in Marth vs DDD.
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
Ramin barely uses MK, he only uses him to experiment. In important sets (ie if he thinks he has to worry about losing with Marth) he goes Marth, or Snake if he thinks his Snake has a better chance (eg vs Nakat at Rescue 3). I haven't seen him use MK seriously in a while, and he didn't even use MK against Atomsk's DDD at Collision IV (though he did use ZSS first XD)
When has Mikeneko used MK outside of doubles?
I knew Mike had a bit of an MK for counterpick stages but like Mr.R I haven't seen him use it in any important sets, could you provide an example? Also from what I understand he's switching over to ICs (or at least was considering it at one point) so he's not really a Marth main anymore.
You don't count. I thought you were a TL main O.o
Okay, Killlock doesn't use MK either.
Why is Leon not on this list? Cause he doesn't play MK either XD
xDD-Master
Smash Champion
Lol Ramin is like all MK/Snake nowadays in Europe, I think he didnt pick Marth the last 2-3 Tournaments. (VS. Leon and VS. Dany, who got 2 & 3 last bigger european tournament)
But how should you know, you arent part of our scene, so thats fine
I hope you dont feel offended for getting corrected haha
But how should you know, you arent part of our scene, so thats fine
I hope you dont feel offended for getting corrected haha
Fuujin
Smash Champion
There's an error with Zelda vs Samus.
It says -1 on Zelda's end but -2 on Samus's end.
Though really like 1/3rd of her match ups are erroneous and you guys did a pretty bad terrible on it,
but in terms of consistency the Samus/Zelda one is wrong.
I need a good kii,
someone be a dear and post who was on the Zelda panel.
I was B& when yall made this newmess chart.
It says -1 on Zelda's end but -2 on Samus's end.
Though really like 1/3rd of her match ups are erroneous and you guys did a pretty bad terrible on it,
but in terms of consistency the Samus/Zelda one is wrong.
I need a good kii,
someone be a dear and post who was on the Zelda panel.
I was B& when yall made this new
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