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Official SWF Matchup Chart v3.0

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Ishiey

Mother Wolf
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V1: http://www.smashboards.com/threads/official-bbr-matchup-chart-v1-0.298484/
V2: http://smashboards.com/threads/official-swf-matchup-chart-v2-0.316173/


This is the third version of the BBR matchup chart, which displays ratings of all matchups in Super Smash Bros. Brawl. This chart was created very similarly to the previous version, with panels created for each character comprising of members both in and out of the BBR that discussed which matchups they would like changed and why with opposing character panels. I’d like to thank all panel leaders and panelists for their contributions to the project, as well as apologize for the lengthy delay before its release.


Like previous versions, this chart uses the +4 to -4 point scale, as described below:
-4: (close to) unwinnable

-3: large disadvantage/hard countered
-2: medium disadvantage
-1: small disadvantage
0: even
+1: small advantage
+2: medium advantage
+3: large advantage/hard counter
+4: (close to) unloseable

Unlike the previous chart, characters are ordered by their cumulative weighted matchup scores this time around. Weighting was done based off of the most recent tier list, with the lowest tier being worth one point, the next lowest two, and so on up to SS tier which is worth 11 points. This means that characters higher on the tier list will have a greater effect on a character’s ranking in the ordered matchup chart. Individual matchup spreads for each character can be found in the collapse tag below the chart.


Also unlike previous installments of the matchup chart, Sheilda is no longer listed because this would skew the weighting system used by essentially doubling Sheik’s worth in most instances (ex. Fox would be lower because of losing to both Sheik and Sheilda). For reference, Sheilda was considered to do one point better than Sheik versus Pikachu, King Dedede, and ROB in v2.


Note that for all scores a competitive level of play is assumed and the performance of top and high level players was considered more strongly than what is seen in lower level play. Keep in mind that the chart does not necessarily reflect the opinions and performances of absolute outliers and is ultimately a consensus between people who are assumed to know their character. Furthermore, the APEX 2012 ruleset was kept in mind.


=============================================================​


As the Brawl community ages, it is becoming more and more difficult to successfully run the matchup chart project in its usual format due to activity and representation issues. Therefore, it is extremely unlikely that another version of the Brawl matchup chart will be released. However, we are working on a way to continue making updates to the current chart without relying on the same process, so as to reflect changes going on in the metagame and correct what possible inaccurate ratios there may be. Expect more information on this in the near future.


=============================================================​


The Matchup Chart
Individual Character Spreads
:metaknight:
0: :pikachu2:
1: :diddy: :falco: :fox: :marth: :olimar::popo::snake::wolf::zerosuitsamus:
2: :dk2::gw::kirby2::lucario::lucas: :ness2: :pit: :rob::sheik::sonic::toonlink::wario::yoshi2:
3: :bowser2::falcon: :dedede::ike::jigglypuff::link2: :luigi2: :peach::pt: :mario2: :samus2:
4: :ganondorf: :zelda:


:popo:
-1: :metaknight: :peach::toonlink::zerosuitsamus:
0: :diddy: :ike: :marth: :rob::snake::wario::wolf:
1: :lucario::ness2: :olimar::pikachu2::pit::pt: :sonic: :yoshi2:
2: :dk2: :falco: :gw::jigglypuff::kirby2::link2::lucas: :luigi2: :mario2: :samus2:
3: :dedede::falcon::fox::sheik: :zelda:
4: :bowser2::ganondorf:


:olimar:
-1: :falco: :popo::metaknight:
0: :diddy: :marth::ness2: :peach::pit::wario::wolf:
1: :fox::gw::lucario: :luigi2: :mario2: :pt::sheik::snake::toonlink::zerosuitsamus:
2: :bowser2::dedede::ike::kirby2::lucas::pikachu2::rob::sonic: :yoshi2:
3: :dk2::falcon::jigglypuff::link2::samus2:
4: :ganondorf: :zelda:


:marth:
-1: :dedede::metaknight:
0: :diddy: :dk2: :falco: :popo::olimar::rob::snake: :sonic: :wolf::zerosuitsamus:
1:fox::ike::kirby2::lucario::pikachu2: :pit::sheik::toonlink::yoshi2:
2: :bowser2::falcon::gw::link2: :luigi2: :peach::samus2::wario:
3: :ganondorf::jigglypuff::lucas: :mario2::ness2: :pt: :zelda:


:pikachu2:
-2: :olimar:
-1: :diddy::popo::lucario::marth:
0: :gw::kirby2::metaknight: :peach::wario:
+1: :zerosuitsamus: :mario2::ness2: :ike::sonic::pit::rob: :luigi2: :toonlink::yoshi2:
+2: :bowser2: :dedede::dk2::falco: :jigglypuff: :link2::lucas::pt::samus2::snake: :wolf: :zelda:
+3: :falcon: :fox::ganondorf::sheik:


:falco:
-2: :popo::pikachu2:
-1::metaknight:
0: :fox::kirby2::lucario::marth: :pit::snake::wario:
1: :diddy: :gw::ike::lucas::olimar::peach::sheik: :toonlink::wolf::zerosuitsamus:
2: :dedede::dk2::jigglypuff: :luigi2: :mario2: :ness2: :pt::rob::sonic:
3: :bowser2: :falcon: :link2::samus2::yoshi2::zelda:
4: :ganondorf:


:diddy:
-1: :falco: :metaknight::snake: :wario:
0: :popo::marth: :olimar::peach::pit::toonlink:
1: :dedede: :fox::ike: :kirby2: :lucario: :luigi2: :mario2::ness2: :pikachu2::rob: :sheik::sonic::wolf: :yoshi2::zerosuitsamus:
2: :bowser2::dk2::falcon::gw::jigglypuff::link2::lucas::pt: :zelda:
3: :ganondorf::samus2:


:snake:
-2: :pikachu2:
-1: :dedede::metaknight::olimar:
0: :falco: :popo: :ike: :marth: :pit::wario: :zerosuitsamus:
1: :diddy::dk2::fox::gw::kirby2::lucario::rob::sheik::sonic::toonlink::wolf::yoshi2:
2: :bowser2::falcon::link2: :luigi2::ness2: :pt::samus2:
3: :ganondorf::jigglypuff::lucas: :mario2: :peach: :zelda:


:wario:
-2: :dedede: :marth: :metaknight:
-1: :peach:
0: :falco: :gw::popo::olimar::pikachu2::sheik::snake:
1: :falcon: :diddy::fox::ike::kirby2::lucario: :luigi2: :mario2: :ness2: :pit::rob::sonic: :toonlink: :yoshi2::zerosuitsamus:
2: :dk2::jigglypuff::link2::lucas::pt::samus2::wolf: :zelda:
3: :bowser2::ganondorf:


:zerosuitsamus:
-1: :diddy: :falco: :metaknight::olimar::pikachu2::wario:
0: :fox::ike: :lucario: :marth: :peach: :snake::sonic::wolf:
1: :dedede: :gw::popo::kirby2::lucas: :mario2: :ness2: :pit::pt::samus2: :sheik: :toonlink::yoshi2:
2: :bowser2::dk2::falcon::link2: :luigi2: :rob:
3: :ganondorf::jigglypuff: :zelda:


:dedede:
-3: :popo: :metaknight:
-2: :falco: :olimar::pikachu2:
-1: :diddy: :fox: :zerosuitsamus:
0: :gw::kirby2::pit::sheik: :yoshi2:
1: :ike: :marth: :peach::snake::sonic: :toonlink:
2: :falcon::jigglypuff::lucario: :lucas: :luigi2: :rob::wario: :zelda:
3: :dk2: :ganondorf::link2: :ness2: :mario2: :pt::samus2::wolf:
4: :bowser2:


:toonlink:
-2: :metaknight:
-1: :dedede::falco: :marth: :olimar: :pikachu2::snake::wario::zerosuitsamus:
0: :diddy::fox::lucario::pit::samus2::sheik::wolf:
1: :dk2::gw::popo::ike::kirby2: :luigi2: :mario2: :peach::rob::sonic::yoshi2:
2: :bowser2: :falcon::jigglypuff::link2::lucas: :ness2: :pt: :zelda:
3: :ganondorf:


:lucario:
-2: :dedede: :metaknight:
-1: :diddy::fox::gw::popo::marth: :olimar::snake::wario:
0: :dk2: :falco: :kirby2::pit::toonlink::wolf::zerosuitsamus:
1: :ike::lucas::luigi2: :mario2::ness2: :pikachu2::rob:
2: :bowser2: :falcon::jigglypuff::link2: :peach::pt::samus2::sheik::sonic: :yoshi2: :zelda:
3: :ganondorf:


:pit:
-2: :metaknight:
-1: :gw::popo: :marth: :pikachu2: :sonic::wario: :zerosuitsamus:
0: :dedede::diddy: :falco: :fox::kirby2::peach::lucario::olimar::rob::sheik::snake::toonlink::wolf:
1: :ike::lucas::luigi2: :mario2: :ness2: :pt::samus2::yoshi2:
2: :bowser2::dk2::falcon::jigglypuff::link2: :zelda:
3: :ganondorf:


:wolf:
-3: :dedede:
-2: :pikachu2: :wario:
-1: :diddy: :falco: :metaknight::sheik: :snake:
0: :fox::gw: :popo::kirby2: :lucario: :marth: :olimar: :pit::rob::toonlink: :zerosuitsamus:
1: :dk2: :ike: :lucas: :luigi2: :peach: :sonic:
2: :bowser2: :falcon: :ganondorf: :jigglypuff: :link2: :mario2::ness2: :pt::samus2::yoshi2:
3::zelda:


:gw:
-2: :diddy: :popo: :marth: :metaknight:
-1: :falco: :olimar::snake::toonlink::zerosuitsamus:
0: :dedede::fox: :pikachu2::wario::wolf: :yoshi2:
1: :dk2::ike::kirby2::link2::lucario: :luigi2: :peach::pit::rob::sheik::sonic:
2: :bowser2: :falcon::lucas: :mario2: :ness2: :pt::samus2:
3: :ganondorf: :jigglypuff: :zelda:


:fox:
-3: :popo::pikachu2::sheik:
-2:
-1: :diddy::kirby2: :marth: :metaknight::olimar::snake::wario:
0: :falco: :gw::ike: :ness2: :pit::toonlink::wolf::zerosuitsamus:
1: :dedede::lucario::lucas: :luigi2: :mario2: :peach::pt::samus2::sonic::yoshi2:
2: :falcon: :bowser2::dk2::jigglypuff::link2::rob: :zelda:
3: :ganondorf:


:peach:
-3: :metaknight: :snake:
-2: :lucario::marth:
-1: :dedede::falco: :fox::gw::toonlink::wolf:
0: :diddy::dk2::ike::kirby2::olimar::pikachu2::pit::rob::samus2::sonic: :yoshi2::zerosuitsamus:
1: :popo: :luigi2: :pt::sheik::wario:
2: :bowser2::falcon::jigglypuff::link2::lucas: :mario2: :ness2: :zelda:
3: :ganondorf:


:kirby2:
-2: :popo::metaknight::olimar:
-1: :diddy: :gw: :marth: :snake::toonlink::wario::zerosuitsamus:
0: :dedede::dk2: :falco: :lucario: :ness2: :peach::pikachu2::pit::rob::sonic::wolf: :yoshi2:
1: :bowser2::fox::ike::lucas::luigi2: :mario2: :pt::samus2: :sheik:
2: :falcon::ganondorf::jigglypuff::link2: :zelda:


:sheik:
-3: :popo::pikachu2:
-2: :lucario::metaknight:
-1: :diddy::falco: :gw: :kirby2: :luigi2: :marth: :olimar: :peach::rob::snake: :zerosuitsamus:
0: :dedede::dk2::ike::pit::sonic::toonlink::wario::yoshi2:
1: :bowser2::jigglypuff: :mario2: :ness2: :pt::wolf: :zelda:
2: :link2: :samus2:
3: :falcon: :fox::lucas:
4: :ganondorf:


:rob:
-2: :dedede: :falco: :fox: :metaknight::olimar::zerosuitsamus:
-1: :diddy::gw::lucario::pikachu2::snake::toonlink::wario:
0: :dk2::popo::kirby2: :marth: :peach: :pit::samus2::wolf:
1: :bowser2::ike: :jigglypuff::link2::lucas: :luigi2: :mario2: :ness2: :pt::sheik::sonic::yoshi2: :zelda:
2: :falcon:
3: :ganondorf:


:ike:
-3: :metaknight:
-2: :olimar:
-1: :dedede: :diddy: :falco: :gw::kirby2::lucario: :marth: :pikachu2::pit::rob::samus2::toonlink::wario::wolf:
0: :bowser2::dk2::fox::popo: :mario2: :peach::sheik: :snake::sonic::yoshi2: :zerosuitsamus:
1: :falcon::jigglypuff: :lucas: :ness2: :zelda:
2: :ganondorf::link2: :luigi2: :pt:


:sonic:
-2: :falco: :lucario::metaknight::olimar:
-1: :dedede::diddy::fox::gw::popo::pikachu2::rob::snake::toonlink::wario::wolf:
0: :ike::kirby2::lucas: :mario2::marth: :peach::pt::sheik::yoshi2::zerosuitsamus:
1: :dk2::falcon::jigglypuff::luigi2: :ness2: :pit:
2: :bowser2: :ganondorf::link2::samus2: :zelda:


:yoshi2:
-3: :falco:
-2: :lucario::metaknight: :olimar::wolf:
-1: :diddy: :fox: :popo: :marth: :pikachu2::pit::rob::snake::toonlink: :wario::zerosuitsamus:
0: :dedede: :dk2: :gw::ike: :kirby2: :ness2: :peach::samus2::sheik::sonic:
1: :falcon::lucas::luigi2: :mario2: :zelda:
2: :jigglypuff::link2::pt:
3: :bowser2::ganondorf:


:dk2:
-3: :dedede::olimar:
-2: :diddy: :falco: :fox::popo: :metaknight::pikachu2::pit::wario::zerosuitsamus:
-1: :gw::pt::snake::sonic::toonlink::wolf:
0: :ike::kirby2::lucario: :marth: :peach::rob::sheik::yoshi2:
1: :bowser2: :falcon: :luigi2: :mario2: :samus2:
2: :ganondorf::link2: :zelda:
3: :jigglypuff::lucas::ness2:


:ness2:
-3: :dedede: :dk2: :marth:
-2: :falco: :gw::metaknight::peach::pt::snake::toonlink::wolf:
-1: :diddy::popo: :ike::lucario: :pikachu2: :pit::rob::sheik::sonic::wario::zerosuitsamus:
0: :bowser2: :falcon: :fox: :luigi2: :kirby2: :mario2: :olimar::yoshi2:
1: :jigglypuff::link2::lucas::samus2: :zelda:
2: :ganondorf:


:luigi2:
-3: :metaknight:
-2: :dedede: :falco: :popo::ike: :marth: :snake::zerosuitsamus:
-1: :diddy: :dk2::fox::gw::kirby2: :lucario: :lucas::olimar::peach::pikachu2::pit::pt::rob: :sonic::toonlink::wario::wolf: :yoshi2:
0: :mario2: :ness2: :samus2:
1: :bowser2::jigglypuff: :link2::sheik: :zelda:
2: :falcon::ganondorf:


:pt:
-3: :dedede: :marth: :metaknight:
-2: :diddy: :falco: :gw::ike::lucario::pikachu2::snake::toonlink::wario::wolf::yoshi2:
-1: :fox::popo: :kirby2::olimar::peach::pit::rob::sheik::zerosuitsamus:
0: :sonic:
1: :dk2::lucas::luigi2: :mario2:
2: :bowser2: :falcon::jigglypuff::link2: :ness2: :samus2: :zelda:
3: :ganondorf:


:mario2:
-3: :dedede: :marth: :metaknight: :snake:
-2: :falco: :popo::gw::peach::wolf:
-1: :diddy::dk2::fox::kirby2::lucario::lucas::olimar::pikachu2::pit::pt::rob::sheik::toonlink::wario::yoshi2::zerosuitsamus:
0: :bowser2::ike: :luigi2: :ness2: :samus2::sonic::zelda:
1: :falcon::jigglypuff::link2:
2: :ganondorf:


:lucas:
-3: :dk2: :marth: :sheik::snake:
-2: :dedede::diddy::gw::popo::metaknight::olimar::peach::pikachu2::toonlink: :wario:
-1: :falco: :fox::ike: :kirby2::lucario: :ness2: :pit::pt::rob::wolf::yoshi2::zerosuitsamus:
0: :bowser2::samus2: :sonic:
1: :falcon::jigglypuff: :link2: :luigi2: :mario2: :zelda:
2: :ganondorf:


:samus2:
-3: :dedede::diddy: :falco: :metaknight::olimar:
-2: :popo::gw::lucario: :marth: :pikachu2::pt::sheik::snake::sonic::wario::wolf:
-1: :dk2::fox::kirby2: :ness2: :pit::zerosuitsamus:
0: :falcon: :lucas::luigi2: :mario2: :peach: :rob::toonlink::yoshi2:
1: :ike::jigglypuff::link2::zelda:
2: :bowser2:
3: :ganondorf:


:link2:
-3: :dedede::falco: :metaknight::olimar:
-2: :diddy::dk2::fox::popo::ike::kirby2::lucario: :marth: :peach::pikachu2::pit::pt::sheik: :snake::sonic::toonlink::wario::wolf::yoshi2::zerosuitsamus:
-1: :gw::lucas::luigi2: :mario2: :ness2: :rob::samus2:
0: :bowser2::falcon::jigglypuff:
1: :ganondorf: :zelda:


:falcon:
-3: :falco: :popo::metaknight::olimar::pikachu2: :sheik:
-2: :dedede::diddy::fox: :gw::kirby2::lucario: :luigi2: :marth: :peach::pit::pt::rob::snake: :toonlink::wolf::zerosuitsamus:
-1: :dk2::ike::lucas: :mario2: :sonic::wario::yoshi2:
0: :bowser2::jigglypuff::link2: :ness2: :samus2: :zelda:
1: :ganondorf:


:bowser2:
-4: :dedede: :popo:
-3::falco: :metaknight::wario: :yoshi2:
-2: :diddy: :fox: :gw: :lucario: :marth: :olimar: :peach::pikachu2: :pit: :pt::samus2: :snake: :sonic: :toonlink: :wolf: :zerosuitsamus:
-1: :dk2::kirby2: :luigi2: :rob::sheik:
0: :falcon: :ike::link2: :lucas: :mario2: :ness2: :zelda:
1: :ganondorf:
2: :jigglypuff:


:jigglypuff:
-3: :dk2::gw: :marth: :metaknight: :olimar::snake: :zerosuitsamus:
-2: :bowser2: :dedede: :diddy: :falco: :fox: :popo: :kirby2: :lucario::peach: :pikachu2: :pit: :pt: :toonlink::wario::wolf: :yoshi2:
-1: :ike::lucas::luigi2: :mario2::ness2: :rob: :samus2::sheik: :sonic:
0::falcon::link2::zelda:
2: :ganondorf:


:zelda:
-4: :metaknight::olimar:
-3: :falco: :gw::popo: :marth: :snake: :wolf: :zerosuitsamus:
-2: :dedede::diddy::dk2::fox::kirby2::lucario::peach::pikachu2::pit::pt::sonic::toonlink::wario:
-1: :ike::link2::lucas::luigi2: :ness2: :rob: :samus2::sheik::yoshi2:
0: :bowser2: :falcon::jigglypuff::mario2:
2: :ganondorf:


:ganondorf:
-4: :falco: :popo::metaknight::olimar::sheik:
-3: :dedede::diddy::fox::gw::lucario: :marth: :peach::pikachu2::pit::pt::rob::samus2::snake::toonlink::wario::yoshi2::zerosuitsamus:
-2: :dk2::ike::jigglypuff::kirby2::lucas: :luigi2: :mario2: :ness2: :sonic::wolf: :zelda:
-1: :bowser2::falcon::link2:



[collapse=Changes from v2]Bowser
Falco -3
Lucario -2
Lucas 0
Ness 0
PT -2
Sonic -2
Wolf -2
Zelda 0


C. Falcon
DK -1
Fox -2
Toon Link -2
Sheik -3


Dedede
Diddy -1
DK +3
Ike +1
Lucario +2
Metaknight -3
Peach +1
Toon Link +1
Yoshi 0
ZSS -1


Diddy
Dedede +1
Falco -1
Kirby +1
Luigi +1
Marth 0
Sheik +1
Wario -1
Yoshi +1


DK
C. Falcon +1
Dedede -3
Metaknight -2
Ness +3


Falco
Bowser +3
Diddy +1
Link +3
Marth 0
Sheik +1
Yoshi +3


Fox
C. Falcon +2


Game&Watch
Jigglypuff +3
ICs -2
Pikachu 0
Yoshi 0


ICs
Game&Watch +2
Ike 0
Lucario +1
Olimar +1
PT +1
Yoshi +1


Ike
Dedede -1
ICs 0
Jigglypuff +1
Snake 0
ZSS 0


Jigglypuff
G&W -3
Ike -1
Lucas -1
ROB -1


Kirby
Diddy -1
Lucas +1
Sheik +1
Yoshi 0


Link
Falco -3
Luigi -1
Sheik -2


Lucario
Bowser +2
Dedede -2
ICs -1
Luigi +1
Ness +1
Peach +2


Lucas
Bowser 0
Jigglypuff +1
Kirby -1
Luigi +1
Pit -1
PT -1
Samus 0


Luigi
Diddy -1
Link +1
Lucario -1
Lucas -1
Sonic -1
Yoshi -1
Zelda +1


Mario
Marth -3
Snake -3
Zelda 0


Marth
Diddy 0
Falco 0
Olimar 0
Mario +3
Peach +2
Pikachu +1
Snake 0
Sonic 0


Metaknight
Dedede +3
DK +2
ROB +2


Ness
Bowser 0
DK -3
Lucario -1
Pikachu -1


Olimar
ICs -1
Marth 0
Yoshi +2


Peach
Dedede -1
Lucario -2
Marth -2
Snake -3
Sonic 0


Pikachu
Game&Watch 0
Marth -1
Ness +1
Snake +2
Toon Link +1
Wolf +2


Pit
Lucas +1
Sonic -1
ZSS -1


PT
Bowser +2
ICs -1
Lucas +1


ROB
Jigglypuff +1
Metaknight -2
Samus 0


Samus
Lucas 0
ROB 0
Zelda +1


Sheik
C. Falcon +3
Diddy -1
Falco -1
Kirby -1
Link +2
ZSS -1


Snake
Ike 0
Mario +3
Marth 0
Peach +3
Pikachu -2
ZSS 0


Sonic
Bowser +2
Luigi +1
Marth 0
Peach 0
Pit +1


Toon Link
C. Falcon +2
Dedede -1
Pikachu -1
Wolf 0
ZSS -1


Wolf
Bowser +2
Pikachu -2
Toon Link 0
Zelda +3


Wario
Diddy +1
Yoshi +1


Yoshi
Dedede 0
Diddy -1
Falco -3
Game&Watch 0
ICs -1
Kirby 0
Luigi +1
Olimar -2
Wario -1


Zelda
Bowser 0
Luigi -1
Mario 0
Samus -1
Wolf -3


ZSS
Dedede +1
Ike 0
Pit +1
Sheik +1
Snake 0
Toon Link +1[/collapse]
 

Luco

Smash Hero
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dracilus
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YAY NEW CHART - I HAVEN'T EVEN LOOKED YET.

SO EXCITED!!!! <3

Third post!!!

EDIT: Can someone please explain the reasoning behind Ness - DK being changed to +/- 3? I can't find a recent top level match of this MU and as such i'm wondering what the evidence here is that DK suddenly bodies Ness, because to my knowledge that doesn't happen. =/

Otherwise I have mixed feelings about the new spread for Ness/Lucas. NESS MAINS WHERE YOU AT? @.@
 

Grim Tuesday

Smash Legend
Joined
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Messages
13,443
Location
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YAY NEW CHART - I HAVEN'T EVEN LOOKED YET.

SO EXCITED!!!! <3

Third post!!!

EDIT: Can someone please explain the reasoning behind Ness - DK being changed to +/- 3? I can't find a recent top level match of this MU and as such i'm wondering what the evidence here is that DK suddenly bodies Ness, because to my knowledge that doesn't happen. =/

Otherwise I have mixed feelings about the new spread for Ness/Lucas. NESS MAINS WHERE YOU AT? @.@

I agree, I can't see the MU being -3

ALSO:
Meta Knight/Pikachu IS NOT EVEN
Meta Knight/Donkey Kong IS WORSE THAN -2
Meta Knight/Jigglypuff IS HER WORST MATCH-UP BY FAR
 

Ghostbone

Smash Master
Joined
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Messages
4,665
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So people are really saying with a straight face that Pikachu does better than ICs, Olimar, Diddy, etc. vs MK.
Sigh.....
Really, Pikachu isn't in their league, player bias too stronk.
 

FredFuchs

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Messages
111
Location
Honolulu, Hawaii
ddd/mk -3. not sure how i feel about that. i used to think it was that, then i noticed that if i play patiently, it becomes more manageable. and ddd/falco is -1 imo.
 

TreK

Is "that guy"
Joined
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Messages
2,960
Location
France
Seems right to me.

I didn't know there were people other than me+Satanpuu who have played the Luigi vs Sonic matchup in tournament. Or was it theorycraft ?
 

Luco

Smash Hero
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dracilus
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I propose an amended tier list where Pikachu/MK is -1

This is not okay.
But if Pika-MK gets changed to -1, pro-ban will murder us anti-ban peeps. D=

Hehe, but I don't really mind with this MU tbh, i'll let other peeps sort stuff out. I'll just be a quiet anti-ban. :p
 

pidgezero_one

((((((((((( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) gotta go fast!
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Anybody else craving McDonalds Breakfast? Brb getting some
 

TreK

Is "that guy"
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Messages
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So, I just calculated how much this ranking would change with MK banned.
+2 : Pit, Ike
+1 : Falco, Peach, Luigi
-1 : Pikachu, TLink, Lucario, Fox, Sheik, ROB, Ness
Overall spread : 587, from 752 (22% augmentation of 'balance', if you will)

So either the method of weighting matchups is not accurate, or MK's ban does not affect the metagame that much. I'll let you interpret that however you want.
 

BSP

Smash Legend
Joined
May 23, 2009
Messages
10,246
Location
Louisiana
Why is:

Pika:MK still a 0?
Mario:DDD and Mario:MK only -3? I cant speak much for D3 due to inexperience, but Mario :MK feels unwinnable if the MK is competent.
Sonic:Lucario only -2? Isn't Espy like 0-10 with Trela?

ROB : MK moving to -2 is interesting.

Seems right to me.

I didn't know there were people other than me+Satanpuu who have played the Luigi vs Sonic matchup in tournament. Or was it theorycraft ?
I've played it in tourney from both sides. +1 Sonic is right IMO.
 

Leon94

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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Messages
304
Location
france
I disagree with marth vs falco, it should be +1 for marth IMO, same for DDK; IDK for oli, but vs Ike it should be AT LEAST +2 for marth, this MU is so free
 

Susi

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 14, 2009
Messages
159
Location
Tampere, Finland
Can someone please explain the reasoning behind Ness - DK being changed to +/- 3? I can't find a recent top level match of this MU and as such i'm wondering what the evidence here is that DK suddenly bodies Ness, because to my knowledge that doesn't happen. =/
Donkey Kong can actually always kill Ness if he gets a grab. No air release possibility or stage running out.

-3 tho...
 

-LzR-

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 1, 2009
Messages
7,649
Location
Finland
What the hell is Pika doing there with a 0 against Meta Knight?
And MK being 50% better than the 2nd best character who happens to be a character who can 0 death everyone from a grab. Yeah right, he is a not a problem to the metagame, he isn't even twice as good as the 2nd best character.
 

Power-Stunna

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 17, 2013
Messages
5
Location
Knoxville, TN
lol nothing's changed for captain falcon. still lots of challenging/bad match ups. I can deal. I love to work hard to win the bad match ups anyway.
 

teluoborg

Smash Otter
Premium
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teloutre
ITT : people butthurt about numbers they don't understand.

Ishey you should add that "what ratios truly mean" post to the op, a full list of the changes and also a list of how many people contributed to each panel (no names mentionned obv).

Hopefully it will help people understand how things went.

Personnally I'm sad this had to be rushed in order to avoid falling into oblivion, but I guess there was no other way.
Glad it's over and that it won't have to be done again.
 

Ruuku

Smash Lord
Joined
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Messages
1,643
Location
Kissimmee, FL
I wonder if ICs match ups require more than the following question: how easily can I get 3 grabs?
 

DLA

"Their anguish was my nourishment."
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DLAhhh
Yeahhhh MK : Pika definitely isn't even.

Also the Ganon chart is truly awful. Most people voting for +3s have never fought a good Ganon. I wish the decision making process was more organized, I wasnt even informed once about any of these so called "discussions" taking place.
 

MVD

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 29, 2009
Messages
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Location
Miami, FL
my only issue is snake marth being 0 (I feel its -1 for snake) and diddy being +1 snake (I feel its at best even for snake) other than that, yayyy -2 pika!

oh and snake tl is even imo
 

Ishiey

Mother Wolf
BRoomer
Joined
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Messages
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Land's End (NorCal)
DLA, that blame unfortunately rests on your panel leader, who never really got on things for the second part of this project despite my attempts to contact them and get the ball rolling :/ no other panelist contacted me about it and since there weren't really any MUs for Ganon to defend this time around, the panel basically got dropped...

Stuff like that is why I'm working on a better way to go about the chart-creating process.

:059:
 

DLA

"Their anguish was my nourishment."
Joined
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Messages
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Chicago, IL
NNID
DLAhhh
Thanks for the response Ishiey. That's kinda what I figured. If we ever get around to updating Ganon, I'd be glad to take over the discussion. This chart makes me kinda sad to look at :C Almost every character is AT LEAST one spot higher against Ganon than they should be, IMO.
 

KoozyK

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 31, 2010
Messages
715
Location
ECU or Greensboro NC,
pika is not even with MK.


In all theroy craft cant 2 characters get a 0 to deaf from one grab?

Being IC's and Pika? chain grab for ic's and pika dthrow-utilt-uair-footstool- jablock?

not that ive ever seen this happen from anyone but ESAM.
 

Xyro77

Unity Ruleset Committee Member
Joined
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Houston,Tx
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Pika vs mk is NOT even.

Mk literally wins every MU in the game.
 
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