Official SWF Matchup Chart v3.0

[KuroganeHammer]

Well there's a face I certainly wasn't expecting to see.

Welcome back.

 

[infiniteV115]

v115: Sorry, I'm not trying to say that. It's just seems as though a lot of analysis was made in the corner instead of being open to interpretation from a variety of perspectives.

Just because the voters didn't consist of the majority of the people on SWF, doesn't mean it didn't include a variety of perspectives

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I don't think I want to support a site where Fuujin isn't allowed to post .gifs





















oh wait yes I do.

 

[Funkmasterblitz]

Anyways, can anyone explain why DDD counters Lucario.

 

[infiniteV115]

High damage output on Lucario because of the chaingrab
Being heavy mitigates the benefit of aura to an extent (ie aura isn't as useful in this MU as in other MUs against lighter chars)
Can deal good damage on Lucario offstage (not necessarily to say that he's good at gimping but he can at least rack up good damage) with bair. If he manages to edgehog and force Lucario to recover onstage, he can get up from the edge and then CG Lucario all the way to the other side again, more damage, rinse and repeat.
Has reliable kill setup in dthrow --> running usmash (I think buffered running jump cancelling usmash?)

You can also throw waddles at a Lucario while he's charging his aura sphere and if he shoots, the waddle takes the hit. Also Lucario isn't the most mobile character so he can't punish Minion Toss (is that what it's called? DDD's sideB) as easily as he would like

 

[Z'zgashi]

Another thing is Lucario has to be stupidly perfect with his spacing on basically every attack since D3's massive reach both with his grab and his tilts has the ability to punish lucario on block even with his aura's range unless spaced basically perfectly. Add in Lucario's lack of mobility (its better than D3's, but barely) and the fact that D3 can just trade in he needs to, its really bad for Luc.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Lucario is honestly slightly overrated imo

 

[Luco]

Lucario is honestly slightly overrated imo

Shots were fired on this day.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I stopped the thread with my passive aggression towards Lucario

Fear me, gentlemen.
Fear me.

 

[1PokeMastr]

DDD is invincible.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Yeah

He's so fat he can't be killed.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Alright, explain this one: how does Ike go even with Ice Climbers?

 

[ぱみゅ]

Because he has a sword and DeLux was part of the ICs panel.

but seriously, Ike is pretty good at spacing people out, personally not sure if good enough to earn a 0, but good still.

 

[Fuujin]

Because he has a sword and DeLux was part of the ICs panel.

Shade.

 

[L∈O]

Can anyone explain:

Why Luigi and Sonic don't have an Even matchup (it's +1 in Sonic's favor)?

Why Luigi only takes +1 instead of +2 against Jigglys?

Why DDD and Yoshi have an Even matchup instead of +1 for DDD?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Why would he +2 puff?

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Why would he +2 puff?

Because Luigi kills early and Puff dies early obviously.

Never mind the fact that Puff can easily outspace Luigi (I've done it and I'm horrible against Luigi) and she destroys his recovery.

 

[L∈O]

Always thought it should be +2...

I mean, Jigglys can gimp Luigi's recovery (as long as a misfire doesn't occur), but his ground game is lame, he has poor reach, Luigi can build damage using the Cyclone and the Fireballs, and every smash attack (especially the Forward) send Jigglys far...

And the Up Smash (Shoryuken) can kill at the 40% percents...

Don't know, as I said before, just think it should be +2...

 

[Grim Tuesday]

No offence dude
but you need to acquire more skillz and experience
before you can make tha claimz

know what im sayin

 

[| Big D |]

It's because Luigi gets grab release > up b from air release on puff.

 

[Desu~]

+2 in Luigi's favour cuz he can switch his Up-B Shoryuken input into Up Smash.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

+2 in Luigi's favour cuz he can switch his Up-B Shoryuken input into Up Smash.

Just set C Stick to Special obv

 

[Grim Tuesday]

It's because Luigi gets grab release > up b from air release on puff.

frame data plz?

 

[| Big D |]

No frame data but if you try it on a CPU you will notice it's very easy. Much easier than other characters' GR > Up air on puff.

 

[Espy Rose]

Why Luigi and Sonic don't have an Even matchup (it's +1 in Sonic's favor)?

I could explain it but you'd probably disagree, and I'm never in the mood to argue match ups.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Can Luigi even force an air release on Puff?
Can she Rest him out of it? (unlike the other GR > uairs, he needs to be inside her to hit with shoryuken)

Yoshi only has like 4 frames to hit with his GR > uair iirc (uair hits on frame 5)
Luigi's shoryuken hits frame 6, and it'll take a few more frames for him to reach Puff
so the timing is definitely tight if it works - idk how their jump speed and vertical acceleration compare

lol @ CPUs being reliable tho
you can hit CPUs with the jankiest GR > uairs with Yoshi
but hitting it on a player is much harder
this is all word of mouth from my resident yoshi main tho

 

[Delta-cod]

Regarding DDD vs. Yoshi, it's just the way the MU discussion worked out. There was discussion for +1 DDD, but it was decided on even. It could go either way. My most recent experience playing DDD was pretty meh, but I also haven't played this game consistently for a while now (loljohns).

 

[| Big D |]

I understand that for sure. Being an ICs main I can fully understand what you're getting at, but at the same time I'm also used to having to be able to execute under pressure.

I don't have frame data but if you notice, jiggs does a little flip after you grab release her. From that you can usually tell what works and what doesn't. I'm fairly certain this works, and with a few minutes in training mode a lot of people can get it down consistently.

Anyways I've recorded a video and I tried to show that if you combo nair into grab, you're grabbing jiggs from the air so it forces an air release.

Anyways enough talk, grab release up b on jiggs.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Yoshi's GR > uair on puff is stupid easy to do.

And imo Yoshi v D3 is +1 D3.

 

[Osennecho]

lol @ CPUs being reliable tho

Marth can infinite pummel->air break-> retreating pivot grab wario cpus. It's quite fun. To bad that doesn't work in reality =_=... In reality people can footstool out quite easily.

 

[Ghostbone]

Everything puff does is safe on Luigi's shield, she bodies his recovery and is basically immune to most jab set-ups because she's too light rofl. She also escapes most strings because she has plenty of jumps to retreat and not have to commit to something, as well as being light/floaty making her be sent pretty far from early aerials/throws and stuff.

But +2 Luigi because up-angled f-smash kills bad DI at 50 obvs.

 

[PKBeam]

Ah.... I didn't realise one move, even one that good, turned the MU from slightly Puff's favour to strong Luigi advantage...once again I am astounded at how good Luigi's Fsmash is.....

 

[Ghostbone]

Your sarcasm detector is broken.

 

[PKBeam]

Well it's the internet and I know close to nothing about either Puff or Luigi.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I understand that for sure. Being an ICs main I can fully understand what you're getting at, but at the same time I'm also used to having to be able to execute under pressure.

I don't have frame data but if you notice, jiggs does a little flip after you grab release her. From that you can usually tell what works and what doesn't. I'm fairly certain this works, and with a few minutes in training mode a lot of people can get it down consistently.

Anyways I've recorded a video and I tried to show that if you combo nair into grab, you're grabbing jiggs from the air so it forces an air release.

Anyways enough talk, grab release up b on jiggs.

I stand corrected XD

 

[C.J.]

Haven't been in this part of the forum for a looonnnggggg time.

Have I missed anything important or interesting or is it just the exact same stuff as always?
Grim, Espy, etc?

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Haven't been in this part of the forum for a looonnnggggg time.

Have I missed anything important or interesting or is it just the exact same stuff as always?
Grim, Espy, etc?

Are you saying the exact same stuff as always isn't interesting?

I take offense to that sir, I like to think I'm very interesting.

 

[RaptorTEC]

Big D's video though... Looool

 

[BSP]

Why Luigi and Sonic don't have an Even matchup (it's +1 in Sonic's favor)?

From my experience, Sonic has a much easier time consistently putting pressure on Luigi and damaging him in the process. His sheer mobility and Luigi’s lack thereof in addition to his spin cancels let him bait and punish Luigi while remaining safe for the most part. When I play Brawlman1000, that’s how I always feel during matches. He’s in control when we’re at neutral, and he’s got to make a mistake or I have to make a good read in order to get any serious damage on him or KO him. It’s easier for him to do the same to me with Sonic’s speed and baits, and he’s safer while doing so.


What keeps this as a +1 for Sonic and not more in his favor is the fact that it’s Luigi he’s fighting and Sonic still can’t KO that well, giving Luigi’s strengths more chances to make a difference. He does a large amount of damage with each move and they string really well at low percent. The right move for Luigi hitting you at 0% could be a free 30% for him + bad position for you. Then there’s the fact that he has amazing KO potential. Up B at around 60% on Sonic is a kill. A misfire is not too far behind that (I know it’s luck based (…supposedly), but it’s something to consider as it can catch players off guard, and it KO’s really early). Fsmash charged isn’t too far from that, and angled up, it has very little lag so Luigi can literally just throw it out and you’ve got to respect it. Luigi’s damage output and KO power somewhat make up for his lack of control in the MU (and in most, tbh), but not enough to make it even.

This is assuming Sonic isn't trying to time Luigi out. If he is, it might be even worse.

Then again, it's Luigi...

 

[L∈O]

From my experience, Sonic has a much easier time consistently putting pressure on Luigi and damaging him in the process. His sheer mobility and Luigi’s lack thereof in addition to his spin cancels let him bait and punish Luigi while remaining safe for the most part. When I play Brawlman1000, that’s how I always feel during matches. He’s in control when we’re at neutral, and he’s got to make a mistake or I have to make a good read in order to get any serious damage on him or KO him. It’s easier for him to do the same to me with Sonic’s speed and baits, and he’s safer while doing so.


What keeps this as a +1 for Sonic and not more in his favor is the fact that it’s Luigi he’s fighting and Sonic still can’t KO that well, giving Luigi’s strengths more chances to make a difference. He does a large amount of damage with each move and they string really well at low percent. The right move for Luigi hitting you at 0% could be a free 30% for him + bad position for you. Then there’s the fact that he has amazing KO potential. Up B at around 60% on Sonic is a kill. A misfire is not too far behind that (I know it’s luck based (…supposedly), but it’s something to consider as it can catch players off guard, and it KO’s really early). Fsmash charged isn’t too far from that, and angled up, it has very little lag so Luigi can literally just throw it out and you’ve got to respect it. Luigi’s damage output and KO power somewhat make up for his lack of control in the MU (and in most, tbh), but not enough to make it even.

This is assuming Sonic isn't trying to time Luigi out. If he is, it might be even worse.

Then again, it's Luigi...

Thanks for your explanation...