Official SWF Matchup Chart v3.0

[Sar]

It's listed as an even MU

Oh, oops. I just remember being surprised when I saw it so I figured it was +1 I guess that's what I get or not double checking.

But still, why even?

 

[DeLux]

If you ever have the misfortune of playing a top ike, it's terrifying

 

[Sar]

But I won't get to play a top Ike until SKTAR so I'm ignorant and dumb.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'm ignorant and dumb.

Then this is exactly the right place for you.

 

[Rizen]

I'm interested in hearing the Yoshi/Olimar MU since it never happened in the discussions, lol.

 

[Delta-cod]

There is so little data/experience in the MU between players of the characters that the MU discussion would rely more on general theorycrafting. So it'd probably be uninteresting.

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

And I love this thread. We could talk about topics that don't produce as much drama like anything peach related, or maybe snake DDD mu, or just go back to discussing Kirby's back air?

 

[Rizen]

discussing Kirby's back air?

It stales

 

[Dekillsage]

If you ever have the misfortune of playing a top ike, it's terrifying

It's pretty freaking terrifying

 

[Rizen]

^Who are the top Ikes currently?

 

[philbobjoe]

San and Ryo have been two of the best, but I'm unsure of who's the best right now/if they play anymore.

 

[xDD-Master]

And I love this thread. We could talk about topics that don't produce as much drama like anything peach related, or maybe snake DDD mu, or just go back to discussing Kirby's back air?

How about we discuss about 20 pages again, if Peach or Sonic does better vs Snake?

 

[Seagull Joe]

How about we discuss about 20 pages again, if Peach or Sonic does better vs Snake?

easily.

 

[Master Raven]

Ryo still plays. He did pretty good at a tourney lasy week actually.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I'm interested in hearing the Yoshi/Olimar MU since it never happened in the discussions, lol.

Like Delta said, it never really happens so its hard to tell. Theory craft generally puts it somewhere between even to +1 in Olimar's favor. I dont really have much of an opinion on it since I never play the MU against good Olimar's and the only time I ever did was at Genesis 2 forever ago and got 2 stocked since I had never played the MU before lol.

 

[Ghostbone]

And I love this thread. We could talk about topics that don't produce as much drama like anything peach related, or maybe snake DDD mu, or just go back to discussing Kirby's back air?

Peach sucks
Snake vs DDD is even
Kirby's back air is a pretty good move.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

When was the last time we talked about Snake vs. Marth? That MU has a lot of history and evidence pointing towards different ratios, could be fun

imo it's even, ally thinks it's marth's favour, yeah?

 

[Dekillsage]

Someone said snake vs ddd is even lets not touch that subject anymore!!!!

Snake vs marth.... ugh
I think marth has slight advantage, but I play the MU like an idiot so idk

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

Someone said snake vs ddd is even lets not touch that subject anymore!!!!

Snake vs marth.... ugh
I think marth has slight advantage, but I play the MU like an idiot so idk

Just cause I care about you so much I'm going to say that snake DDD is even as well. But I feel a lot more of DDD 's mu's are even than most do I think. Snake is eternally overrated though so I am going to say marth beats snake. I'm not sure I see it though. I know marth spikes snake pretty easy but marth gets his normal spacing options shut down by snake's grenades and tilts.

 

[smashkng]

Grenades aren't that scary for Marth. Pulling out Nades is not completely lagless, he's pretty vulnerable to grabs when holding a Nade at the range of Snake's non-projectiles. and the only option he can do to reliably beat grab attempts (MK's much better but Marth's dash grab is still pretty decent IMO and it's fast, which Marth's fast running speed it's less of a problem that is lacks range) is by spot dodging, which also pretty easy to punish if Marth decides not to commit with grab. Also, sometimes Marth's aerials clash with Snake's Grenades without making them blow up (IDK too well why sometimes it clashes and why sometimes it doesn't though, Nades must have a pretty weird hurtbox). Tilts don't completely shut down Marth's spacing options. They work to mess up Marth but only when he guesses right. Marth can just move just outside the range of his tilts and punish almost any commitment with tilts Snake does. All Snake can do is guess what Marth will do (it's hard to shut down Marth's spacing without a broken option like MK's GSL). I'm not sure if Snake's Utilt does outrange Fair horizontally though (at least when it comes to the higher parts of Snake). IMO it's a pretty big problem for Snake in the MU that almost all of his non-projectiles are so punishable on block so he has to rely on risky grab attempts (and his dash grab is pretty bad for a high tier) to beat Marth's shield when at close or mid range (although getting the grab leads to Dthrows which can put a ton of damage if he succesfully guesses right. Just watch Ally vs Mikeneko there. Marth however can easily get away with several options when he hits Snake's shield.

When it comes to gimping, Snake is easiest to gimp at lower %s, when aerials like Fair combo really well on Snake which eventually leads to Dair. Marth can also easily set them up from grabs at low %s too. At higher %s it's much harder to set up gimps. At those %s the damage will come mostly from juggles which eventually can set up a kill move.

It's still a pretty even matchup though. Marth wins slightly but Snake still has good options (mostly his reward for succesfully punishing comes to mind) although that usually requires risky reads, but it's still doable enough to get a few times every match.

 

[xDD-Master]

Do you think Mario can beat MK AT ALL ? Like lets say, the skills of M2K, Ally and Anti in one person combined (Or take more people, doesnt matter), and he plays Mario. Could he beat Otori?

What do you think?


Or in short: Does mario (In Theory) have any chance vs the best MKs? (One that plays the MU correct).

Or will he lose, no matter how good he is?


I really wonder what you guys think.

 

[Espy Rose]

The discussion is over, but Rizen, I've beaten Razer's Snake before.

 

[Rizen]

The discussion is over, but Rizen, I've beaten Razer's Snake before.

I was wondering, what's the Sonic/Snake MU though?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Marth vs Snake is exactly even, as is Snake vs DDD
Mario cannot beat MK or DDD.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Do you think Mario can beat MK AT ALL ? Like lets say, the skills of M2K, Ally and Anti in one person combined (Or take more people, doesnt matter), and he plays Mario. Could he beat Otori?

What do you think?


Or in short: Does mario (In Theory) have any chance vs the best MKs? (One that plays the MU correct).

Or will he lose, no matter how good he is?


I really wonder what you guys think.

cannot win. I think has a better chance honestly. At least then he has ganoncide (Scarier then cape).

 

[Rizen]

*Checks chart* Mario is -3 with MK and Ganon's -4.
IDK about Mario but for Ganon the MU is just hell. MK's Ftilt>everything on the ground. Ganon has better reach with some air moves like Uair but that barely helps.
At least Mario has fireballs to space with. I assume it's a hell MU for him too.

 

[smashkng]

Nado beats almost anything Ganon does unfortunately and he can only stop Nado with laggier moves like Dair or Ftilt. Plus Ganon should never come back once he's offstage, and even if he makes it back he is terrible at getting off the ledge, especially when he has RCO lag and especially against someone like MK. It's a -4 for Ganon without a doubt. Sure Ganon is scarier than Mario, but it doesn't make him have a better MU than Mario unless lack of MU knowledge counts in the rating, which I assume never does. Ganoncide is really situational, unless the MK doesn't know the MU he shouldn't be getting Ganoncided, he can just space his moves to beat that and gimp Ganon afterwards.

 

[Ghostbone]

Mario and Ganon are both trash characters that will never beat one of the best MK players in the world in a serious set.

Though Ganon has more surprise value so Ganon > Mario.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Yep, both matchups are +4 for MK.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Can we just simplify things and give MK a +4 matchup against everyone?

 

[Rizen]

Can we just simplify things and give MK a +4 matchup against everyone?

Except Pika

 

[Z'zgashi]

Youre right, MK has a +5 on Pika.

 

[Neon!]

In case it wasnt noted somewhere, The Will vs MK matchup is -2, for the rest of the DK's its still -3.

 

[Dekillsage]

Lol no its not

"I can't do anything!!!!" -Will

 

[Sinister Slush]

*taps B button* That's all he does! -Will

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

Nado beats almost anything Ganon does unfortunately and he can only stop Nado with laggier moves like Dair or Ftilt. Plus Ganon should never come back once he's offstage, and even if he makes it back he is terrible at getting off the ledge, especially when he has RCO lag and especially against someone like MK. It's a -4 for Ganon without a doubt. Sure Ganon is scarier than Mario, but it doesn't make him have a better MU than Mario unless lack of MU knowledge counts in the rating, which I assume never does. Ganoncide is really situational, unless the MK doesn't know the MU he shouldn't be getting Ganoncided, he can just space his moves to beat that and gimp Ganon afterwards.

Just for accuracy gannon does have more options to beat tornado than just the ones you listed. Both warlock punch and his up tilt beat tornado for everyone's information. I actually saw a gannon hit mk out of tornado with up tilt in a doubles tournament match a long time ago in the early times of this game. Hypest thing I've seen in a match to this day even if the gannon still lost.

 

[Ghostbone]

Warlock punch and up-tilt are not options to beat tornado when their startup is longer than its duration.
/why am I responding to a troll post

 

[Rizen]

^I guess it's technically true. Technically anything that avoids nado's hit bubbles and hits MK beats it so any downward aiming aerial. It's still a -4 for Ganon .

(Technically it's Ganon, not Gannon)

/whatever

 

[Alphicans]

Just for accuracy gannon does have more options to beat tornado than just the ones you listed. Both warlock punch and his up tilt beat tornado for everyone's information. I actually saw a gannon hit mk out of tornado with up tilt in a doubles tournament match a long time ago in the early times of this game. Hypest thing I've seen in a match to this day even if the gannon still lost.

http://gannon-banned.com/#gannon

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

The moves do beat tornado. I wouldn't say they are exactly effective for doing it but I was just being thorough.

Also thank you for the catch on my spelling. Ganon.