Official SWF Matchup Chart v3.0

[Seagull Joe]

It's sad how much this is like the MU discussions. We have people who don't know characters, with no experience saying ignorant things, trolls pop in and spam insults, the topic's somehow guided in weird directions and Olimars and ROBs win by not posting.

Seagull, I respect you as a player and as someone who defends their opinions. I'm going to defend mine, just like you.
Me saying MK getting opponent's offstages and walling with Ganon's Uair being as good (or better IMO) as juggling with MK's Uair isn't unreasonable is it? MK's best offstage.

It starts later, ends later, and can't combo.

What use is walling when you could have a move that can literally be spammed to beat airdodges rather then having to read an opponent?

If I was to link a video like you keep doing, I would just link one of the billion videos of rufio'ing someone or Uairx#>Shuttle loop>Death...Actually: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OY8fAHjZ-E#t=14m49s

As Wolf would you rather try to recover vs MK offstage or be above him?

Could you re-word that? I don't know what you're asking. If has enough time to get me offstage and follow me, I'll probably be dead.

What would you say to people arguing a MU they've never played? What if Yoshi players never played the Wolf Yoshi MU and wanted it -1? Do you realize the stupid **** low tiers constantly put up with like people saying Link's a -4 with ICs? ZSS being as bad for Link as Falco, using noobs you've critiqued as MU references, people saying Link won't live past 180 ever despite me doing it all the time with evidence? Idiot people just assume playing a good character means they know everything. I'm so sick of that entitlement attitude. Do I tell you how to play Wolf, or Ed how to play Zelda? No! When you play a character for 5 years you actually know how to use them.
You couldn't 3 stock me in a -3 MU of Link vs MK, and neither could any other MK except slither2hunter in 1 game and many MKs I took 2 stocks off like K9 and Delux. Many games off. Give me some credit man. You're in a big region; my region's almost dead. When it's not it's a 2-3 hour drive one way and the wifi connections suck. I still went all Link in 6 tournaments and I can use the 4th worst character in -3 and -2 MUs vs top players like you. It takes balls to be good with a terrible character. We're not playing to make money. It's just what we want to do.

I've EARNED the right to be respected as a Link player and with my secondaries too. I didn't have it easy either. You can disagree but I'm not some idiot who doesn't speak from experience.

I don't need to main or use him for any period of time to be able to make simple observations. I've played the game long enough.

I probably could 3 stock you with if S2H did looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool.

I respect your endeavor and effort you put into your posts, but when you link Wi-Fi or use that as evidence, your credibility gets shot.

And what makes you have the ability to be respected for your and secondaries? What tournament accomplishments/victories or results have you brought to the table?

 

[Espy Rose]

Also interesting Espy I never knew that thanks bro ur a gud frend bro

Need help with anything else?

 

[xDD-Master]

Wtf discussing UpAirs.

Marios UpAir though!

 

[Rizen]

Could you re-word that? I don't know what you're asking. If has enough time to get me offstage and follow me, I'll probably be dead.

I don't need to main or use him for any period of time to be able to make simple observations. I've played the game long enough.

I probably could 3 stock you with if S2H did looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool.

I respect your endeavor and effort you put into your posts, but when you link Wi-Fi or use that as evidence, your credibility gets shot.

And what makes you have the ability to be respected for your and secondaries? What tournament accomplishments/victories or results have you brought to the table?

Just that Wolf's worse offstage vs MK was my reasoning.

But you didn't 3 stock me.

Well if someone says Link can't live past 180% and I show this

Link lives over 200% (in the last year)

Spoiler

234%
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=isGgoIlBAoA#t=269s
201%
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkZqQB5bqnU&feature=player_detailpage#t=189s
218%
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sijv_-r6jH8&feature=player_detailpage#t=158s
219%
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4M-6wt87Fto&feature=player_detailpage#t=242s
239%
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpsBkzpRM6c&feature=player_detailpage#t=452s

Wifi or not my point is made.
As you can see people don't just believe me when I say stuff like Link surviving over 200% so even wifi can help in cases like this. I never based any MU argument on wifi ever. I hate wifi but it's often all I have. We also had other tourney goer Link's like X and Scizor. People just overlook the forest for the trees. If people would accept things I wouldn't have to post vids.

Well I've been in 6 or 7 live tourneys and always ended up playing people who won them like Fino. Always going all Link, placing 17th of 40, 25th of 90. Worse in earlier ones. It's been a while, I can't remember every one.

I've beaten good people.


How many tournaments have you gone all Bowser in? I'm just saying it's hard to go all low tier. Very few people do it. It's not smart playing but it's what I wanted to do. High tiers or Borderlines can actually win but you can't base MUs on how many low tiers won tourneys.

 

[Delta-cod]

That reminds me, I've been meaning to ask what's the Yoshi/MK MU? I have a scrub MK and Yoshi really surprised me, lol. I've hear Yoshi's one of the best 10 characters to fight MK.

If this is in response to the Uair comment, I wasn't speaking with any MU in mind. It was just a general observation.

Yoshi is one of the best characters to fight MK assuming the MK is not playing to the current metagame. The current metagame is relying less on reading your opponent and more on just cutting off options and pushing your zone forward, until your opponent runs out of stage to retreat to and is forced to go to the ledge (bad) or attack in desperation (also bad). Yoshi does not have adequate tools to deal with this kind of pressure from MK, so he, like most characters, will just get bodied.

Assuming the MK camps, the MU can maybe be seen as a -1. Campy MK gives Yoshi space to make reads, and the defensive options that a campy MK will tend to pick gives Yoshi's moves and approaches more utility, assuming you have the patience to pick your battles.

Aggro MK is tricky, but can also just be a -1 assuming you can beat out some of the approaches, since a grab can make up for a lot. Either way, I think playing against aggro MK is super fun, although frustrating because sometimes you just get caught by the fact that MK can do anything he wants once he has the advantaged situation.

There's a difference between camping and the zoney kind of play that this game is turning into, though. Not too many people are actually zoning against Yoshi like they should be, so Yoshi looks like he has a "good" MU, when in reality it's horrible against anyone with any knowledge.

I really like mid-tier events/restrictions because I feel like the game is less about this kind of progressing brick-wall, and more about player vs. player reads/interaction, since mid tiers typically lack strong enough zones to play this way. So you can go for silly stuff and the game can be super entertaining, lol.

 

[RaptorTEC]

Deltas really long post in short is this - Back in '05 this mu seemed pretty good but now everyone realized its really booty.

 

[Delta-cod]

The history is more of a roller coaster ride than that, but yes.

Although it still looks winnable when played against most MKs cuz they suck.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Well if someone says Link can't live past 180% and I show this

What does living long have to do with anything?

I've lived past 200% with Jigglypuff (and so has the other Puff main in Toronto), does that prove anything? It doesn't mean Jigglypuff has survivability, it just means that we don't get hit by kill moves.

After watching the videos you linked, it's the same. You're just running around taking chip damage and avoiding kill moves to high percent. That doesn't mean anything about Link's survivability, it just shows that anyone can live long if they don't get hit by strong attacks.

 

[Sar]

Correct me if I'm wrong but this seems to be a logical hole.

Rizen says he has credibility to talk about these low-tier MUs because he actually plays them.

Rizen says he rarely ever gets to go to irl tourneys and therefore has to play wifi.

Rizen says he would never base any MUs off of wifi.

Wat.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Uair?
Why don't we talk about Yoshi and his fast broken Up air.

 

[Rizen]

After watching the videos you linked, it's the same. You're just running around taking chip damage and avoiding kill moves to high percent. That doesn't mean anything about Link's survivability, it just shows that anyone can live long if they don't get hit by strong attacks.

You're missing the point. If Link survives Wario's Uair at 153 or Sheik's Usmash at 170 something what that means is Link survives Wario's Uair at 153 or Sheik's Usmash at 170 something. Just like I said. The rest is not important.

Correct me if I'm wrong but this seems to be a logical hole.

Rizen says he has credibility to talk about these low-tier MUs because he actually plays them.

Rizen says he rarely ever gets to go to irl tourneys and therefore has to play wifi.

Rizen says he would never base any MUs off of wifi.

Wat.

You left out 'Rizen played all Link in several tourneys and many other offline events and he bases MUs on those. He plays wifi to practice like 90% of the people'. So yes, you're wrong.

People seem to forget everything else as soon as wifi's mentioned. It's a good practice tool but all my evidence is recent and offline.

 

[DeLux]

People just overlook the forest for the trees. If people would accept things I wouldn't have to post vids.

Well I've been in 6 or 7 live tourneys and always ended up playing people who won them like Fino. Always going all Link, placing 17th of 40, 25th of 90. Worse in earlier ones. It's been a while, I can't remember every one.

I've beaten good people.

Having been to Colorado myself, and no offense to CO's scene because I love them to death and they know that, I find this claim to be pretty questionable. Would you mind listing all of the "good players" you've played in tournament/mm and what your record is against them?

 

[NickRiddle]

People still argue with Rizen.
I love this thread.

 

[infiniteV115]

You're completely ignoring the built in FF of Link's Dair. Why do you think you know Link better than me? Or Ganon? You're just assuming things about Link's momentum canceling. The trial proven fact is it works better than other aerials. News flash: just because you play a high tier doesn't mean you know MUs you've never played or characters you don't use!

Did you actually read my post or are you just saying words
Cause it seems like you're just saying words

 

[Rizen]

Did you actually read my post or are you just saying words
Cause it seems like you're just saying words

Remind me how much have you played Link? How much have you played vs him?

Having been to Colorado myself, and no offense to CO's scene because I love them to death and they know that, I find this claim to be pretty questionable. Would you mind listing all of the "good players" you've played in tournament/mm and what your record is against them?

Fishbait ***** me, Fino, Bees, Dave, Meno, Steam, Chunky, Sunny, DTL others. The curse of a bad region Obviously most of the good players were wifi which is why I play it. You have to remember results from Scizor, X and other Links. Just because I've played MUs on and offline it doesn't mean the online part hurts my games as long as I know the difference. Why should I turn down learning the ZSS MU from Bio or the Pika MU from Truth even if it is wifi? When I learn a MU I go for the most resources possible and the best people. I don't see what's wrong with that. Salem won Apex and he got good on wifi. Never turn down experience.

The problem is low tiers are very rare so there's like 4 or 5 active good Links. While I end up defending myself a lot, the other side is few people have any evidence. Like 1 other person uses Ganon in friendlies so It's several people who don't use Ganon saying his Uair sucks and 1 person who uses him saying it's a really good Uair.
My MK's not good with Uair. I like to base my points on experience but I'm a really scrubby MK so that's my experience :/ I need to step him up. I learned Ganon and am learning MK to better understand him even though I don't like his play style. At least I play both and have played vs both. How many people can say that?
People just assume everything. Ganon does have a great Uair just like I said. Someone jumps in the conversation with bad info then the discussion becomes MK's move set vs Ganon's Uair. It should be that hard to say Ganon's Uair is great IMO top 2 but somehow the point's lost.

It's easy for high tiers to place in tourneys but when judging MUs that are -2s and -3s you have to go by the actual MU. What bugs me is how often that is ignored. I'm very against theory crafting to the point where I'll learn a character I'm bad against, like Zelda and PT. I strongly believe you can't know a character without playing them and that's based on how much I've learned from my 8 characters, counting PT as 1 +learning and dropping Sonic and Lucario. When DLA's frustrated about the Ganon MUs and so on I can see where he's coming from.

tl;dr
I'm talking from the experience and playing. That's what counts.

People still argue with Rizen.
I love this thread.

Great job using Shawdy as a MU reference; he'd played Link maybe 3 months at the time. You have a lot more experience vs some other ZSS' in the MU who didn't even play it. Keep up the theorycrafting.
Hey didn't X play Salem and they both thought the MU was -1? Didn't I play Bio?

The real question is why am I arguing with people who just assume stuff? Playing ZSS =/= knowing everything about the game.

 

[infiniteV115]

Words it is. I'm done here

 

[Espy Rose]

If FIshbait ***** you, then we have a problem.

Texas as an overall region has gotten pretty weak with Gnes, Razer, Dojo, and Trela kinda falling out of the loop, but Fishbait wouldn't breach our top 10 down here even now. Then you have to factor in the Midwest, EC, WC...

Colorado only has one decent player. Decent.

 

[Rizen]

^good thing this isn't a region tier list discussion :[

@ Espy, what's the Sonic/Snake MU? How many good Snakes have you beaten?

 

[pidgezero_one]

Does anyone else enjoy posting in here while on the toilet? I feel the toilet's contents reflect the quality of posts in here right up until 10 seconds before I posted.

 

[DeLux]

Fishbait ***** me, Fino, Bees, Dave, Meno, Steam, Chunky, Sunny, DTL others. The curse of a bad region Obviously most of the good players were wifi which is why I play it.

So outside of Fishbait, Fino (Olimar probably back in 2010 since that's the last time he's gone to CO for tournament), Bees (Rob), Steam (Lucario), and Meno (Peach), you have limited experience with characters you've played against at a high level in tournament when it counts.

You have to remember results from Scizor, X and other Links. Just because I've played MUs on and offline it doesn't mean the online part hurts my games as long as I know the difference. Why should I turn down learning the ZSS MU from Bio or the Pika MU from Truth even if it is wifi? When I learn a MU I go for the most resources possible and the best people. I don't see what's wrong with that. Salem won Apex and he got good on wifi. Never turn down experience.

You can ride Salem all you want. I don't think people respect him for being from wifi. I think people respect him for going out to tournament and making accomplishments playing in various regions with traveling to do so and then having results to show for it. At the end of the day, if you assume around 50ms latency (which is pretty fast for wii wifi), you're assuming 3 frames of lag from the get go. So you are experience success in an environment where in an ideal situation, if someone normally timed to PS a projectile, they'd instead be hit for it. Moves that are 15 frames or longer are no longer reactable at neutral. DIing to a move you didn't think you'd get hit by is no longer reactable. Wifi might help you improve by increasing the pool of players you have to draw from, but using it as MU based experience to draw solid evidence does not reflect high level or top level of play.

The problem is low tiers are very rare so there's like 4 or 5 active good Links. While I end up defending myself a lot, the other side is few people have any evidence. Like 1 other person uses Ganon in friendlies so It's several people who don't use Ganon saying his Uair sucks and 1 person who uses him saying it's a really good Uair.

Most of the people have just been countering your claim that MK would be improved with Ganon's Uair, with pretty strong evidence to support why that claim is false.

My MK's not good with Uair. I like to base my points on experience but I'm a really scrubby MK so that's my experience :/ I need to step him up. I learned Ganon and am learning MK to better understand him even though I don't like his play style. At least I play both and have played vs both. How many people can say that?

Perhaps then maybe you ought to not look at people making false assumptions, and maybe start questioning your experience. Like you've been claiming "nobody plays ganon well enough to understand how good his moveset is". I'd contend you do not play metaknight well enough to understand how good his moveset is, so the comparison of "Ganon's Uair would improve MK" you're trying to draw has no backing or evidence.

People just assume everything. Ganon does have a great Uair just like I said. Someone jumps in the conversation with bad info then the discussion becomes MK's move set vs Ganon's Uair. It should be that hard to say Ganon's Uair is great IMO top 2 but somehow the point's lost.

The conversation shifted that way because YOU kept saying MK would be improved with Ganon's Uair, which pretty much anyone with an understanding of how MK utilizes his Uair has agreed that he'd be worse off with a higher knockback, high FAF uair.

It's easy for high tiers to place in tourneys but when judging MUs that are -2s and -3s you have to go by the actual MU. What bugs me is how often that is ignored. I'm very against theory crafting to the point where I'll learn a character I'm bad against, like Zelda and PT. I strongly believe you can't know a character without playing them and that's based on how much I've learned from my 8 characters, counting PT as 1 +learning and dropping Sonic and Lucario. When DLA's frustrated about the Ganon MUs and so on I can see where he's coming from.

tl;dr
I'm talking from the experience and playing. That's what counts.

In the same spirit you question the experience of others for not playing certain characters, it's fair to question your experience. You have limited high level play offline. You admit most of your experience comes from wifi, which is questionable just on the question of latency. That doesn't even go into whether casual games matter, because most high level players aren't playing to win in casuals, especially on wifi. So I'd avoid the calls on credibility if I were you. It's a pot meets kettle situation.

 

[pidgezero_one]

Also, V has a Rollout problem.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I talked about nothing with 's ability to live random things. I just talked about why your momentum cancel did not matter.

The problem is low tiers are very rare so there's like 4 or 5 active good Links. While I end up defending myself a lot, the other side is few people have any evidence. Like 1 other person uses Ganon in friendlies so It's several people who don't use Ganon saying his Uair sucks and 1 person who uses him saying it's a really good Uair.

That person is a scrub.

My MK's not good with Uair. I like to base my points on experience but I'm a really scrubby MK so that's my experience :/ I need to step him up. I learned Ganon and am learning MK to better understand him even though I don't like his play style. At least I play both and have played vs both. How many people can say that?

Everyone could say that.

People just assume everything. Ganon does have a great Uair just like I said. Someone jumps in the conversation with bad info then the discussion becomes MK's move set vs Ganon's Uair. It should be that hard to say Ganon's Uair is great IMO top 2 but somehow the point's lost.

It sucks by comparison. Every top player has said that. Know your place.

It's easy for high tiers to place in tourneys but when judging MUs that are -2s and -3s you have to go by the actual MU. What bugs me is how often that is ignored. I'm very against theory crafting to the point where I'll learn a character I'm bad against, like Zelda and PT. I strongly believe you can't know a character without playing them and that's based on how much I've learned from my 8 characters, counting PT as 1 +learning and dropping Sonic and Lucario. When DLA's frustrated about the Ganon MUs and so on I can see where he's coming from.

I play , , and in friendlies all the time, but I don't pretend to know their matchups. Picking a character you don't necessarily main and beating people isn't hard. In friendlies I've beaten Logic's with , but that means nothing because he just does things wrong in the matchup (Constantly shielding).

 

[Sar]

Ok rizen. Ok.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Uair?
Why don't we talk about Yoshi and his fast broken Up air.

Because it's easier to talk about how godlike MK's everything is and blame him for Global Warming.

 

[Rizen]

In the same spirit you question the experience of others for not playing certain characters, it's fair to question your experience. You have limited high level play offline. You admit most of your experience comes from wifi, which is questionable just on the question of latency. That doesn't even go into whether casual games matter, because most high level players aren't playing to win in casuals, especially on wifi. So I'd avoid the calls on credibility if I were you. It's a pot meets kettle situation.

The fact is it's a MU discussion. It's not a region discussion. I can say X played Salem irl and people ignored it. When you think about it, what right does infinite have to talk when's never played the MU and doesn't play Link? Really there's a lot of evidence but people just keep trying to wander around it because they lack the experience.
If I didn't know what I was doing how'd I take 2 stocks off your MK and give high damage? This is skill and experience. People can talk about region, or rankings but that's never part of it. The truth is a MU discussion is about people who've played the MUs seeing how good/bad the characters are in it.
Basically you can't deny terms or evidence but you have to take it for what it is. My performance speaks for it's self. It further backs up other evidence. This is going against theorycrafting. People like to single out scraps of info.

We basically agree on every MU I've seen so IDK why you think it's wrong or inexperienced for me to further that? Like with ICs vs Link we had 6 people, 2 of which played ICs all saying it was -2 for Link; who's experience is wrong? You can't deny everyone's experience made a stronger case. The more experience the better.
If anything you should be on the case of the people who have never played the MU or never played anyone but scrubs instead of the people who learned it from the pros and played it a lot. Fame and region =/= MU experience.

Most of the people have just been countering your claim that MK would be improved with Ganon's Uair, with pretty strong evidence to support why that claim is false.

Perhaps then maybe you ought to not look at people making false assumptions, and maybe start questioning your experience. Like you've been claiming "nobody plays ganon well enough to understand how good his moveset is". I'd contend you do not play metaknight well enough to understand how good his moveset is, so the comparison of "Ganon's Uair would improve MK" you're trying to draw has no backing or evidence.

False assumptions like Ganon's Uair must be falled and it's bad are false; ask any Ganon player about these. You can't take that out of context. I have my opinions but some things are facts.
You play MK but not Ganon so it's a bias for MK on your part as much as my bias for Ganon's Uair because my MK sucks. I didn't think Ganon had any good moves until I learned him. I'm going to get my MK better and see what I think then. Based on that I do think people are underrating Ganon's Uair but I could be wrong about MK's being worse. There's no point in speculating; I'm going to play it out for myself.

Everyone could say that.



I play , , and in friendlies all the time, but I don't pretend to know their matchups. Picking a character you don't necessarily main and beating people isn't hard. In friendlies I've beaten Logic's with , but that means nothing because he just does things wrong in the matchup (Constantly shielding).

Only 1 other person uses Ganon; that's hardly everyone :/ Like you said in the lower part, there's a difference in playing and learning a character. I wouldn't talk about Ganon without having learned him. I do need to learn MK better, you've seen I've been practicing with him for some time but that's really no qualification for knowing him. Most of my experience is vs him. I learned a lot by playing him that I couldn't have otherwise. Like I said to Delux, that just means I have to get good with MK too



I completely agree. You have to know a character and their MUs and can't mess around with a character and represent them. There's no accuracy in MUs played wrong. I've learned a lot about Wolf and other character's MUs but I still ask the pros. Lol my Oli is terrible.
IDK why you think I'm the idiot when I actually know the MUs. Other people didn't; call them idiots

 

[Seagull Joe]

What you just said made no sense. I'm done here.

 

[Rizen]

What you just said made no sense. I'm done here.

infinite hasn't played the ZSS/Link MU. Nick only played 2 scrub Links. Why should they argue the MU?

 

[DeLux]

The fact is it's a MU discussion. It's not a region discussion. I can say X played Salem irl and people ignored it. When you think about it, what right does infinite have to talk when's never played the MU and doesn't play Link? Really there's a lot of evidence but people just keep trying to wander around it because they lack the experience.
If I didn't know what I was doing how'd I take 2 stocks off your MK and give high damage? This is skill and experience. People can talk about region, or rankings but that's never part of it. The truth is a MU discussion is about people who've played the MUs seeing how good/bad the characters are in it.

Ok, if you seriously want to get into our MK vs. Link wifi battle: I got off work and was about two shots of EC into my night. It was wifi, so obviously I was not going to try very hard. I got a 2 stock lead, then I was talking on my phone and watching Netflix (not even kidding). So I spent the game jumping around stalling until my phone convo ended. So yea, I beat your Link drunk while watching Netflix and talking on the phone. Next time I'm in CO, we can MM for whatever you want and I'll be sure to put my try pants on and turn my phone off. But at the end of the day, even if I WERE focusing on playing/trying, it's still wifi friendlies. Which don't matter in the slightest, especially in the context I make $$$$ playing.

Basically you can't deny terms or evidence but you have to take it for what it is. My performance speaks for it's self. It further backs up other evidence. This is going against theorycrafting. People like to single out scraps of info.

You still haven't addressed my argument on why your wifi evidence doesn't matter. It doesn't reflect high-top level of play. It is played on wifi with at LEAST 3+ frames of lag that spikes inconsistently. It is casual play because it's not tournament setting. Most of the videos are of not high level players. So if you can address how your videos reflect high-top level play based on that pretty commonly accepted criteria, then your experience matters for evidence. Otherwise your experience is skewed and it's reflected in your view of the game and how it is constantly at odds with players that have shown the ability to understand the game to win at high-top levels.

We basically agree on every MU I've seen so IDK why you think it's wrong or inexperienced for me to further that? Like with ICs vs Link we had 6 people, 2 of which played ICs all saying it was -2 for Link; who's experience is wrong? You can't deny everyone's experience made a stronger case. The more experience the better.
If anything you should be on the case of the people who have never played the MU or never played anyone but scrubs instead of the people who learned it from the pros and played it a lot. Fame and region =/= MU experience.

You keep arguing with people about not having experience or evidence. In most cases that I've seen, people have given you evidence (in this case, the frame data of Uair for MK being superior to Ganon's) and then you call them for lack of experience (since they dont' play Ganon). We might agree on some MU ratios, but in principle your method of arguing experience when you have very limited (to no) high-top level play experience in most MUs, and questioning other players' credibility is extremely short sighted on your part, especially when you're trying to use your biased experience of the game from the lense of wifi to supersede of otherwise pretty objective evaluations.

TLDR: You probably should have a pretty strong top/high level play resume if you're going to pull the experience argument card. Otherwise you look like a fool.

 

[Rizen]

Ok, if you seriously want to get into our MK vs. Link wifi battle: I got off work and was about two shots of EC into my night. It was wifi, so obviously I was not going to try very hard. I got a 2 stock lead, then I was talking on my phone and watching Netflix (not even kidding). So I spent the game jumping around stalling until my phone convo ended. So yea, I beat your Link drunk while watching Netflix and talking on the phone. Next time I'm in CO, we can MM for whatever you want and I'll be sure to put my try pants on and turn my phone off. But at the end of the day, even if I WERE focusing on playing/trying, it's still wifi friendlies. Which don't matter in the slightest, especially in the context I make $$$$ playing.



You still haven't addressed my argument on why your wifi evidence doesn't matter. It doesn't reflect high-top level of play. It is played on wifi with at LEAST 3+ frames of lag that spikes inconsistently. It is casual play because it's not tournament setting. Most of the videos are of not high level players. So if you can address how your videos reflect high-top level play based on that pretty commonly accepted criteria, then your experience matters for evidence. Otherwise your experience is skewed and it's reflected in your view of the game and how it is constantly at odds with players that have shown the ability to understand the game to win at high-top levels.



You keep arguing with people about not having experience or evidence. In most cases that I've seen, people have given you evidence (in this case, the frame data of Uair for MK being superior to Ganon's) and then you call them for lack of experience (since they dont' play Ganon). We might agree on some MU ratios, but in principle your method of arguing experience when you have very limited (to no) high-top level play experience in most MUs, and questioning other players' credibility is extremely short sighted on your part, especially when you're trying to use your biased experience of the game from the lense of wifi to supersede of otherwise pretty objective evaluations.

TLDR: You probably should have a pretty strong top/high level play resume if you're going to pull the experience argument card. Otherwise you look like a fool.

MMing Link vs MK is stupid, sorry you're not getting free money. It's a -3 MU and I didn't hear any of that before.

Why are you assuming I used wifi as evidence? I never did. Maybe you should look at the top ZSS player and the top Link's matches.

No I didn't argue people didn't have evidence. You just made that up. I argued that people were underrating Ganon's Uair and we need a ganon like DLA in here to help clarify things.

TL;DR
Stop johning and making things up. You don't even play these MUs or characters. Stop kissing up to people who never even played the MU and face reality! Look at the evidence not johns or excuses. A MU is not a popularity contest for players who have their face out there. It's about the MU!

Edit:
I'm going to stop posting and cool down lol. It seems like all evidence from top level play to personal experience is being ignored and people who don't even use the characters think they can just buy skill. I held up my claim.

 

[DeLux]

MMing Link vs MK is stupid, sorry you're not getting free money. It's a -3 MU and I didn't hear any of that before.

Why are you assuming I used wifi as evidence? I never did. Maybe you should look at the top ZSS player and the top Link's matches.

No I didn't argue people didn't have evidence. You just made that up. I argued that people were underrating Ganon's Uair and we need a ganon like DLA in here to help clarify things.

TL;DR
Stop johning and making things up. You don't even play these MUs or characters. Stop kissing up to people who never even played the MU and face reality! Look at the evidence not johns or excuses. A MU is not a popularity contest for players who have their face out there. It's about the MU!

lol are you seriously going to say you didn't use wifi as evidence after you linked multiple wifi videos?
So not only are you not going to have credibility because you have limited top-high level play experience, you're going to just straight up lie?

Might have to pull the mod card here and end the convo because you have to be trolling. There's no other explanation.

 

[Rizen]

Delux, I'm mad. I'm not talking; believe what you want.

 

[Sar]

Rizen's arguments are bad and he should feel bad.

 

[DeLux]

Why don't we end the convo and move onto a different topic, mods orders

 

[| Big D |]

I think Yoshi is highly overrated.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I think Mewtwo is highly underrated.

 

[Sar]

Why does Ike have a +1 on ICs? I'm not contesting it, just curious.

Is it the throw popo offstage -> dtilt spike nana that I saw Ryo do?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Why does Ike have a +1 on ICs?

Because Florida cried the loudest.

 

[NickRiddle]

Florida cries as loudly as possible all the time.

 

[DeLux]

It's listed as an even MU

 

[NickRiddle]

Crying so loud we change the chart when it's not changed. #florida