Official SWF Matchup Chart v3.0

[xDD-Master]

Yeah I agree that both Mario & Ganon are -4 vs MK. And also that Mario just cant beat MK, no matter how good the Mario is. (Assuming the MK is a top player and knows the MU, which should be the case when making a tier list or MU chart)

So I was wondering why MK is only -3.

What kind of drugs do these people take?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

When I think of Ganon vs MK, I can understand why he has -4 match-ups. Literally, anything Ganon does can be stuffed by MK. MK has safe pokes against Ganon at virtually any part of their encounters and there really shouldn't be a surprise factor brought up from earlier with Ganon other than random Dash attack in your face as that's his only fast long reach move to hit with compared to his other stuff.

When I see Mario vs MK, I can actually see some situations that MK might mess up and get punished by Mario a few times. OoS UpB or at the very least fire balls vs MK is a huge improvement over anything Ganon actually has in a number of situations. To me, its Mario actually have a few options that can succeed vs Ganon with scenario's that really never succeed. The only reason I might see it being better for Ganon is that Ganon punishes mistakes hard. However, then we are talking about a sub-par MK that's making many mistakes.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Meh as a Mario player, Im honestly not sure if I think Mario vs MK is -3 or -4. I mean, Mario can kind of do stuff against MK if he can out play MK, but at the same time, while he can kind of get hits/damage in, he cant effectively close out the game and its stupidly hard to win a match verses MK with him. The MU feels like a -3 until you have to try and score a kill or actually WIN the game at which point it can feel quite unwinnable, if you get what I mean.

 

[BSP]

Mario should never beat a competent MK. It should be a minus 4. Z'z is right about KO'ing. It's just "lol mario" at that point.

 

[xDD-Master]

When I play MK, I fear Ganon more than Mario... both are -4 IMO, but vs. Ganon, every mistake gets punished a lot harder.
Both characters have to mindgame anyway, to do ANYTHING notable.

For every read+hit you do with Mario/Ganon, you take 5-10 hits while trying. It just that Ganon gets more for trying.
On the other hand, as ganon is slower overall he probably has to read even more/better...
And now I wonder why we even talk about Ganon.

My initial question was just the one, if you guys think that Mario has any Chance at beating top level MKs, assuming the Mario is a Brawl-God.
Or if MK is just too good in the MU, so that the player skill (Human abilities) will never be enough to overcome the character's weaknesses, which I think is the case in that MU.

So I wonder why it is -3. I think there are even more unwinnable MUs in Brawl than right now represented in the Chart.

Maybe we should really start a 3-case-chart with:
1) Guaranteed Win
2) Winnable/Losable ("even")
3) Autolose/unwinnable

(Ofc. 1 & 3 always have to happen both in a MU, for the other player the other one)

When this is done, we can move on, to specify the Ratio in 2.
We could put down unwinnable MUs as an X, while "Autowin" is an O for example.

-4 to +4 will only be used for match-ups, where both characters can at least potentially win vs the other.

 

[Rizen]

^I don't really get that system :/

And now I wonder why we even talk about Ganon.

Because the reason people lose bad MUs is because they don't know them. The first time you play a good Ganon, he's scary.

I would like to the Mario players' explanation of the Ganon/MK MU and why it's -3.

 

[xDD-Master]

For the system: There is X, -3, -2, -1, 0, +1, +2, +3, O
X = "Autolose" (Just unwinnable)
O = "Autowin" (You should never be losing if you play the MU right)

-3 to +3 are just applied, when a Match-Up isnt unwinnable for one of the 2 characters, kinda like a scale.

Just look, Mario vs MK is -3 atm... how in the world could the chart-makers let that happen? Its obvious that no matter how good the Mario is, he won't beat an MK that knows the Match-Up.

Thats why I said, first we just focus on which match-ups are unwinnable, and which are "even" (In this case even = Both characters CAN win)

And later on, we decide the actual ratio of the MU.

Ofc. we can just put -4 and +4 instead of X and O. X and O should just be used for the "first phase", where we only decide if in Match-Up-XYZ both characters can win, or if one of the characters should always win. (We can use - for MUs where both charas can win, the symbols really dont matter).

Did I make it more clear?


The reason I would prefer this, because I think its a lot easier to decide/agree on if a Match-Up is winnable at all, for a character, or unwinnable, if thats not the case.

 

[Rizen]

^Why not keep the +/-4 we already have instead of redesigning the system?

A problem with calling a MU unwinnable is technically every character can do something so with metagame changes and stage changes some MUs become better than -4s. For example DK vs DDD went from -4 to -3 for DK this chart. We can't dismiss MUs entirely because this can and does happen.

 

[1PokeMastr]

Why not just keep the current system ?
It seems good enough in terms of it all.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

It seems good enough in terms of it all.

Nope. Ratio system was way better.

 

[-LzR-]

Ratio system was not and will never be in any way better than the current simple and easy to understand system. No one even agree what the hell 60:40 mean't and it was such a pointless system. It's like we used +1/-1 for a small advantage. I am glad the ratios are mostly gone now.

 

[Espy Rose]

Nope. Ratio system was way better.

Nope.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Except that it's totally the other way round. Nobody can tell whether a matchup that used to be considered 60/40 is supposed to be +1 or +2 now. One is too high, the other is too low - neither makes sense or can accurately describe the matchup.

 

[1PokeMastr]

The +/- system isn't meant to repesent the numerical ratio system at all or even organize it in the slightest.

It's meant to give a quick definition to a Mu, slight advantage, slight disdvantage, even, etc.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

How about we just do away with the ranking system and just have a list of the pros/cons of matchups.

Something like:

MK vs Ganon

MK Pros:
Kills Easily
Gimps Easily
Gets hits easily

MK cons:
lol why does this section even exist.

Ganon Pros:
Kills Early
Opponent will not take you seriously and sandbag

Ganon Cons:
Can't hit
Can't recover
Can't avoid hits
Sucks


Imo this would be a lot easier for people to understand.

And there wouldn't be any useless arguments over semantics.

 

[Espy Rose]

The fact that Gheb even tried to compare the systems after time and time again the BBR has repeated that the process doesn't work just...

This is what futility feels like.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

the BBR has repeated that the process doesn't work just...

What do I care about the words from a horde of donkeys?

 

[Espy Rose]

Guess that makes you the warble.

 

[Rizen]

How about we just do away with the ranking system and just have a list of the pros/cons of matchups.

Ganon Pros:
Opponent will not take you seriously and sandbag

^Lol.

The problem with that^ is MUs like DDD vs Link:

Link pros:
Outcamps
forces approaches
Walls with Zair
Bombs break grabs and boomerang can too
and so on...

Then in the real world of how MUs are played DDD shied grabs and it ends up being -3 for Link but even in theory

 

[Z'zgashi]

That MU sounds like a -3 in theory imo.

 

[Rizen]

Okay.

I'd like to hear from Ganon, Bowser and/or DDD mains why DDD vs Ganon is -3 for Ganon but DDD/Bowser is -4 for Bowser?

 

[Z'zgashi]

Because infinites.

Funny enough, they can both infinite each other, just Bowser will never get it cuz his grab range is so small and D3's grab range > Bowser's everything and D3's pummel dthrow infinite is OP.

 

[Ussi]

Isn't it humanly possible to mash out of 1 DDD pummel up till like ~130%? Why does the infinite matter?

 

[Z'zgashi]

You'd have to ask a D3 main on the specifics cuz I honestly dont remember exactly how it works.

Regardless though, its still a **** ton of damage even if D3 drops the infinite due to small step, and its not like Bowser can do anything else to D3 anyway.

 

[| Big D |]

It's true the infinite only works if dthrow is kept fresh aka by pummeling.

However on the other hand without it you get a small step cg which adds up to a lot of damage and we also get dthrow > dsmash.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I'd like to hear from Ganon, Bowser and/or DDD mains why DDD vs Ganon is -3 for Ganon but DDD/Bowser is -4 for Bowser?

For me, I am convinced bowser would have a worse match-up because he is one of the few (only?) character(s) in the game which gets walking chaingrabbed. This along with the idea that Ganon has a SideB which can eat through spot dodge or shield attempts more readily than bowser can despite having his own koopa claw.

 

[Ussi]

Small step i understand cause that's just the suck for Bowser and DK. I just don't understand pummel infinites counting since ddd has the slowest pummel and people have gotten much better at mashing out of grabs

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

What percentage would you say is average for getting out of grabs from a pummel? I tend to gauge it that I should never pummel with any character below 50% because everyone can get out it seems. After 50% it seems you can work in one free pummel. At around 110% or so you can work in 2 pummels safely.

 

[DeLux]

Definitely not two pummels at 110

 

[SaveMeJebus]

This exists on smashville lol

You have to be pretty dumb to airdodge into that

 

[Ussi]

Average doesn't matter for determining MUs, we want high level play, and high level play has good button mashing to get out of grabs.

I'd say even the average button masher can get out at 100% before DDD finishes his first pummel

 

[Ghostbone]

Set d-pad to buttons
Rotate through that while holding the control stick one direction, mashing c-stick the opposite direction, and mashing all the other buttons on the controller.
You'll get out of D3's grab if he ever tries to pummel you.

 

[Delta-cod]

Set d-pad to buttons
Rotate through that while holding the control stick one direction, mashing c-stick the opposite direction, and mashing all the other buttons on the controller.
You'll get out of D3's grab if he ever tries to pummel you.

How many hands do you have?

 

[Ghostbone]

How many hands do you have?

Err
Each hand has multiple fingers you know.

 

[Delta-cod]

I'd say that your right hand would be getting subpar mashing on the C-stick and buttons.

 

[Ghostbone]

Not really?
And it's mainly the d-pad + dual stick mechanics that lets you mash fast anyway.

 

[Dekillsage]

You have to be pretty dumb to airdodge into that

I mean just consider what Mk usually does
move -> shuttle loop is usually what he's gonna do and you either chose to get hit by the first move to avoid getting shuttle looped, or you get shuttle looped and now he can cancel it lol

I'm assuming that's what I was talking about b4

 

[-LzR-]

And that's how you play MK. Do a move -> do another move. You get your free automatic frametrap for absolutely no reading or anything required. And it's safe 90% of the time. Awesome huh.

 

[RaptorTEC]

Mashing out with wiichuck and it's shake smash is amazing.

 

[Delta-cod]

Mashing out with wiichuck and it's shake smash is amazing.

Mashing out with wiichuck and it is shake smash is amazing? "it is"? "IT IS"!?

lrn2spellplz