Official SWF Matchup Chart v3.0

[infiniteV115]

"lrn2spellplz"? It's "learn to spell, please"

lrn2spellplz

 

[Delta-cod]

Blast! I've been exposed!

Time for sudoku, I suppose.

 

[RaptorTEC]

One time Delta changed the YGD title to "Yarnasaurus Rex" because he thought it was clever.

 

[Delta-cod]

Pics or it didn't happen.

 

[RaptorTEC]

I have witnesses for that incident!

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I have witnesses for that incident!

Witnesses lie.

The only way to prove that an event has indeed occurred is to provide physical evidence of said event, especially in the form of a photograph.

Or, in other words,

Pics or it didn't happen.

 

[RaptorTEC]

Don't worry as soon as I can get on a computer later on I will provide pictures of the horrific event. Delta will not only be exposed but he will never show his face around these parts anymore

 

[Sinister Slush]

The only evidence I have is I favorited a certain page in the Yoshi general discussion back when the Friday April Fool's joke happened and it still had the title Yarnasauras Rex as the name.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I remember it, I dont think I have any evidence though...

Those were some dark times back then...

 

[Delta-cod]

I never showed my face in the first place.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

How about we just do away with the ranking system and just have a list of the pros/cons of matchups.

Something like:

MK vs Ganon

MK Pros:
Kills Easily
Gimps Easily
Gets hits easily

MK cons:
lol why does this section even exist.

Ganon Pros:
Kills Early
Opponent will not take you seriously and sandbag

Ganon Cons:
Can't hit
Can't recover
Can't avoid hits
Sucks

Imo this would be a lot easier for people to understand.

And there wouldn't be any useless arguments over semantics.

I am very much in favor of something other than an attempt to summarize match-ups by number. Any discuss I seem to see on boards is more emphasis on the number rather than what makes it said number. The +/- of a match-up (lol) would be neat, but there would be arguments nonetheless because I can guarantee you there will be subjective things about it.

As a polarizing example, I would say that any character with a projectile like Wolf or Mario should easily be powershielded and punished if they are simply using it on the ground (PS -> dash attack). However, I can go up to any newbie player and they find its an annoying projectile to get around and its hard to beat the spam. People are going to have subjective thoughts on what makes a pro/con.

Or it might be its fairly common to assume Falco loves final destination when in actuality he would prefer battlefield. Certain characters cannot accelerate upwards as quickly as falco can. So, having the option to go for the ledge, top platform, or deep onstage makes combating his recovery all the more difficult because not all characters can cover stage, ledge, and top platform. On FD however, nearly every character in the game can cover the ledge and stage properly making Falco's recovery worse on FD than on BF. Some people are probably going to say FD is still better for Falco than BF in all match-ups.

 

[Rizen]

I've always banned FD vs Falco. ^What characters do better vs Falco on FD than BF?

 

[Z'zgashi]

Maybe ICs (not sure), Ive heard Pika does good against Falco there, but I dont thing its better than other stages.

So really, not that many characters.

 

[Shaya]

Any player who can react to falco's side b (20+ frames) and has good mobility + means of punishing (a good hitbox) of Falco's side B kinda... can destroy Falco on FD purely because he relies on platform and vertical height mix ups to avoid infinite juggling.

So in other words.... A lot of characters can beat falco on FD... lol A lot of Falcos I know think BF is their best stage.

 

[Rizen]

^That's interesting to learn. What characters specifically would Falco take to BF rather than FD?

 

[Shaya]

Marth, Diddy, maybe ICs, Snake, Olimar

 

[Ghostbone]

Falco can abuse their recoveries on FD just as much as they can abuse his.

 

[Rizen]

Marth, Diddy, maybe ICs, Snake, Olimar

Except Diddy and ICs that's not what I expected at all but I don't play Falco. Interesting.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Marth, Diddy, maybe ICs, Snake, Olimar

I disagree about Diddy and Olimar. Olimar is actually weird as FD is his worst stage in many ways. It's the only stage that neither gives him a benifitial platform setup, nor does it have an improved pluck rate for his better pikmin. It's much harder for him to cover approaches and outcamp his opponent that on BF. Almost every character should try to get to play on FD vs Olimar imo.

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

Falco would definitely rather do battlefield vs DDD than FD if he knows what's good for him.

 

[Rizen]

^Can't Falco CG DDD but not the other way?

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

^Can't Falco CG DDD but not the other way?

in my mind the cg from Falco doesn't make that big an impact in this mu because it does maybe 60% but DDD them lives to 180 so it matters but not near as much as how locked down Falco can be trying to recover allowing DDD to get stupid low% kills on Falco. Falco can get basically the same % damage from the cg out on battle field but actually be able to recover if he needs to.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I've always banned FD vs Falco. ^What characters do better vs Falco on FD than BF?

To be honest, I am not too familiar with all the other characters when it comes to stage picking. By itself, Falco simply sees noticeable buffs due to the platforms. As mentioned, it helps with recovery. Because Falco is one of the only characters who can FH to the top platform he can combo off it and simply use it as a means to escape pressure and work his way back down again. Platform play in general strengthens any character who holds the ground versus someone knocked into the air. Any character forced into a teching situation on a platform is guaranteed to be punished no matter what since its one of the few locations in brawl where all options can truly be covered by a character. It help set-up KO's for him such as Usmash or Bair KO's depending upon the situation. BF in general just provides more perks than FD by itself.

in my mind the cg from Falco doesn't make that big an impact in this mu because it does maybe 60% but DDD them lives to 180 so it matters but not near as much as how locked down Falco can be trying to recover allowing DDD to get stupid low% kills on Falco. Falco can get basically the same % damage from the cg out on battle field but actually be able to recover if he needs to.

Get to randall's and we'll play.

Assuming an Usmash KO with best possible DI and momentum canceling 161% is the percentage DDD is going to start getting KO'd around. Around that percentage is where a strong fresh Bair is going to start KO'ing at as well near the sides of the stage I believe. A 180%, I guess would be a reasonable upper bounds for DDD to be living around.

Either way, the CG is still quite leveling in the match-up. 0%-48% + follow-up will put it at that 60% mark you are talking about. But, ending it with a spike or potentially another move like weak Bair or Nair can still potentially lead to more damage and put up the percentage even higher. If the spike ends offstage, the best scenario for DDD is he'll reach the ledge and not get KO'd by the Falco being ballsy. But, being stuck on the ledge as DDD is not the greatest situation versus Falco anyway. If Falco chooses to end the spike onstage, then DDD is not stuck in tech chase position which all options can be covered by Falco thanks to ending the spike near the ledge.

Thus, provided Falco keeps DDD anchored down in these bad spots after the spike, then the CG has potential to take DDD from 0% to 60% guaranteed, while tacking on damage from DDD in poor positioning making the CG effectively getting almost as high as perhaps 100%. So, 1/3 to 1/2 of your percentage in a stock seems fairly significant.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Still, Falco's movement is extremely linear and DDD one of the hardest punishers in the game.
One Illusion read = Taking a Stock at like 100%.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Still, Falco's movement is extremely linear

Stop posting holy ****.

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

Stop posting holy ****.

Come on Gheb, we have just been discussing how Falco has very linear recovery which is made even worse by the stage FD which can lead to DDD getting stupid early kills. Don't insult someone's comment if you aren't following the conversation... It's not like Kyo is saying Falco is linear in everything especially not compared to DDD.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Still, Falco's movement is extremely linear and DDD one of the hardest punishers in the game.
One Illusion read = Taking a Stock at like 100%.

But a bad read = damage

 

[Rizen]

Marth, Diddy, maybe ICs, Snake, Olimar

Why does Falco do better vs Marth on BF than FD? I thought Falco's strong area would be in his camping zones based on an old Marth guide:

http://www.smashboards.com/threads/marths-zones.229253/

It seems like BF is really good for Marth?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I understood the context and have not insulted anybody.

 

[Djent]

Tyrant is now my hero.

ADHD too.

 

[Espy Rose]

I understood the context and have not insulted anybody.

Does it count if your mere existence on the forum insults human intelligence?

 

[Rizen]

Pro tip: I debates/conversation it goes without saying that anyone with different views is stupid. No need to say it.

 

[Djent]

So...can we be done underrating Snake now?

 

[Espy Rose]

I hope not.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Still, Falco's movement is extremely linear and DDD one of the hardest punishers in the game.
One Illusion read = Taking a Stock at like 100%.

That sort of makes it seems like getting a read on phantasm is going to be fairly common. To me, I am just fairly convinced that Falco can always force himself into a safe position either by phantasm to a platform out of the opponents reach (BF top platform), Delfino (top platform, under the stage with transform), or straight up choose between the ledge and stage depending upon opponents position. Whether or not its safe as in no damage or just a weak punish depends. But, I believe Falco can avoid KO attempts like DDD's Utilt this way. So, unless Falco is being habitual about his phantasm attempts (such as off the ledge which is extremely common with newer players for some reason), then yeah.

Why does Falco do better vs Marth on BF than FD? I thought Falco's strong area would be in his camping zones based on an old Marth guide:

http://www.smashboards.com/threads/marths-zones.229253/

It seems like BF is really good for Marth?

They sort of work both ways. Marth is one of those characters who's range allows him to cover much of Falco's recovery. FH Uair reaches the top platform or much of his short hop moves covers the whole lower platform. He can easily poke Falco on the ledge and has the dash speed to get to the ledge or inner stages very quickly. On the other hand, the platform still helps buffer Falco. Marth cannot swing his sort a certain range above a platform without incurring lag, so the platforms help protect Falco against any sort of air dodge/aerial shennigans. This with the fact that Marth is pretty bad underneath him makes it much easier to abuse Marth when he is knocked away above the platforms.

FD on the other hand Marth can air dodge/aerial straight down if he so chooses at any height above the stage and stuff Falco's attempts to hit him. In that respect, not only does Falco lose mix-up space in his recovery, it makes it a bit trickery to handle Marth for juggling. Falco gets more control working with BF than he does on FD is the biggest reason I see it working better for him there. However, Marth also would like the platforms as well to more easily handle juggling.

In the end, most stages are going to give either character relatively decent advantages. It just depends upon whoever ends up staying in the advantageous positions the longest is it clear which character got the stage to work for them the best. There are a few exceptions like DDD gets free KOs on Castle Seige part 2 due to walk offs at times, or extra free damage due to walls in PS1 or Delfino.

So...can we be done underrating Snake now?

I think Snake is in a good spot. Its surprising how similar he is to Falco in melee in the fact that he has a very controlling ground game, yet once he gets hit it can pretty much easily lead to him losing a stock. I'd agree he doesn't have many advantaged match-ups. I see top, high, and mid tier all having fairly evenly matched match-ups with him. I'm honestly surprised he stayed so high up on the tier list for as long as he did.

 

[Djent]

See, I disagree. He may have a lot of even(ish) matchups, but his only bad ones are MK, Pika, and maybe Olimar (though results don't bear that one out). None of those matchups are unwinnable (-2 Pika my ass). He has even MUs against characters that dominate others really hard (Falco, ICs) and that's valuable. Of course, the way the chart is weighted might not actually bear out my claims in terms of +/- ratios, but he's easily one of the strongest solo characters.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

When you say underrating, where does that notion come from? Do you think its from people's comments about how snake is not actually all that great? Or do you think Snake actually should in general appear as a better character over characters like Olimar, ICs, Falco, Pikachu, Marth, Diddy, etc? If the latter one, what is that Snake has going for him that really out strips the other characters?

I'd agree I think I see a ton of people saying Snake is "bad" despite still being a top tier character so it sort of appears underrated. In the earlier days of Brawl, it certainly seemed like Snake was overrated and now I just think its fine. Snake despite having stupid attributes is not all that stupid of a character once you know how to abuse his flaws.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I mean, I personally think Snake > Marth, but thats as high as Id put him.

 

[Djent]

I think Snake should probably be around 4th-5th on the tier list instead of 6th (woops, my bad Z'zgashi). MK, ICs, and Olimar are definitely better. Falco could potentially edge him out, but he's better than everyone else free (including Diddy who should be 6th). This has more to do with weighted matchups than specific character attributes.

 

[Z'zgashi]

He's 6th atm, and I personally think he should be 5th, but Ive thought that for a long time.

My opinion has def changed a bit since then, but my opinion of top tier (while tier groupings have changed slightly) is pretty much still the same.