Official SWF Matchup Chart v3.0

[Rizen]

Rizen should try stand-up.

That's because it is bad.

You think Ganon's Uair is bad^? Please explain why. Is it slow, weak, bad reach, cooldown, other? I don't see your logic?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Isn't rizen the same guy from the zss vs link matchup discussion?

real.

 

[Sar]

Rizen, have you forgotten part of the reason why MK's uair is so good? It creates the easiest FRAMETRAPS. People have such a hard time landing vs metaknight because he forces airdodges and bad defensive options and can follow up with any other of his broken aerials.

Reasons why Uair is the best for creating frametraps.
-Awesome disjoint
Because of the disjointed hitbox, most characters are forced to take a defensive option against MK uair.

-Frame 2 startup
Uhm, yeah. Way better than any frame 6 BS.

-13 frame duration
By far the fastest in the game. This means that even if the first uair doesn't hit, an airdodgle through mk won't work.

MK would NOT be better with gannon's uair because it is just too long. 33 frames means he cant frametrap with it, roof-KO with it, or do anything that makes mk's air game so hard to deal with.

I also think the fact that you "play" gannon is messing with you perspective with the move. Gannon as a whole is so bad that any move that is even remotely viable seems WAY better than it really is.

 

[Rizen]

^I never said MK didn't have an awesome Uair. Ganon is bad; that's why I'm only saying his Uair is good, not him. When did I say otherwise?

Isn't rizen the same guy from the zss vs link matchup discussion?

real.

Do you play Ganon? Something about all this theorycrafting from people who don't actually use the character bugs me. It's easy to mock but I've seen 1 other person who uses Ganon in this conversation.
Look at it from my point of view; I'm posting nicely, explaining my reasons from experience, and it keeps coming out as MK's moveset vs Ganon's Uair by people who don't use Ganon and think he must fall it or it sucks. Why do you think I'm wrong about Ganon's Uair being up there with ZSS'? Please explain why a frame 6 that kills and has a huge disjointed reach is bad. You know my logic.

 

[Dekillsage]

I picked ganon once.
I didn't get to play

 

[DeLux]

To be fair, I think most people (except Espy apparently) think Ganon's Uair is pretty good. I'm in that camp.

However, it's nowhere near as good as MK's Uair, and Mk would be a worse character if he traded Uairs with Ganon contrary to what you suggest

 

[Sar]

^I never said MK didn't have an awesome Uair. Ganon is bad; that's why I'm only saying his Uair is good, not him. When did I say otherwise?

The problem is that this wasn't your original argument. On multiple occasions you said that "Gannon's uair is the best or second best in the game" or that "Mk would be better with gannon's uair."

Both of those are incorrect.

But yeah, gannon's uair is good.

Another seriously underrated uair is GW's. I still think there are things to do with it that people have yet to really master.

 

[Rizen]

^I still say it's one of the best moves. See my logic below.

To be fair, I think most people (except Espy apparently) think Ganon's Uair is pretty good. I'm in that camp.

However, it's nowhere near as good as MK's Uair, and Mk would be a worse character if he trade Uairs with Ganon contrary to what you suggest

I can accept that. It was originally about Ganon having a good Uair then all this other stuff came into it. While I do think MK would benefit from the power and launching angles of Ganon's Uair, MK does do well with his too. Getting opponents offstage with a Uair like Ganon's then guarding them would outweigh the juggling but that's my opinion.
If I had to give Link or Zelda or Wolf or pretty much any of my characters MK's Uair or Ganon's I'd choose Ganon's. Considering only the Uair and not shuttle loops etc I do believe Ganon's is better and one of the best.

This all started with http://smashboards.com/threads/official-swf-matchup-chart-v3-0.338390/page-17#post-15723791 if low tiers have some of the best moves and I'd say Ganon's Uair is one of them. Then it went down the rabbit hole, lol.

 

[Delta-cod]

Rizen, you can't look at moves in a vacuum. Well, you can, but it's pointless to do so in most cases.

Ganon's Uair is good. MK's Uair is infinitely better though. MK would not be better with Ganon's Uair.

 

[Rizen]

Rizen, you can't look at moves in a vacuum. Well, you can, but it's pointless to do so in most cases.

Ganon's Uair is good. MK's Uair is infinitely better though. MK would not be better with Ganon's Uair.

It's all in the magic world of make believe anyway. MK doesn't have it so, yeah.
Consider MK launching someone with Ganon's Uair then using his edgeguarding. I think that would be deadly. Thing's like Ftilt>Ganon's Uair>shuttle loop at low %s >semispike Uair>Dair.

Oh well.

 

[Delta-cod]

Or we can just Ftilt > Uair > Shuttle Loop > dair.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

MK's uair is godlike, the single fastest aerial in the game BY FAR, comes out frame 2, combos into almost anything including itself, completely unpunishable if spaced right, and the best aerial move in the game for momentum canceling BY LEAPS AND BOUNDS

Mostly just here to correct some stuff. For one, which aerial you use momentum cancel means nothing at all. Seriously, the duration is not the most significant part of momentum canceling at all. The only important part an aerial provides you with for momentum canceling is the fast fall. You are only activating the aerial in the first place to just be able to fast fall. And you can fast fall any aerial on frame one for momentum canceling.

Quick little quiz to recap!

Which scenario below will allow MK to survive to the highest percent?
1)MK does his Uair and fast falls on frame one.
2)MK does his Nair and fast falls on frame one.
3)MK does his Bair and fast falls on frame one.
4)MK does his Dair and fast falls on frame one.
5)MK does his Fair and fast falls on frame one.
The correct answer?
Any of them. They all will make MK survive EXACTLY the same and one is not better than the other.

Now, why does duration matter at all? To be honest, it doesn't really matter. The only reason you'd want to use the shortest aerial is for situations like when a character might hit you during your aerial lag so close to the blast zone like PIkachu's thunder or perhaps Falco who can jump really high.

It chains because MK's jumps. The damage is poor. It is a great move but you have to consider the other things that make it work. It's not the best momentum canceler; Link's Dair auto starts FF mechanics as it's happening and faster than MK's Uair ends.

Auto-fast-falling is a trait of any down aerial done with the c-stick. Also, you cannot gauge best momentum canceling aerial because of what I said to Z'zagshi. The aerial you use is not the thing that makes you life longer. Its the fastfalling that does it and the fast falling is character dependent not which aerial you are using. You are right in the fact that Link momentum cancels better than MK. MK does not have as high of a fast fall as Link does and therefore when Link momentum cancels via fast falling he gets more of a benefit from momentum canceling than MK does.

Do you even know how momentum canceling works?

Be wary what you say. Oh, and as a last little segment to this momentum canceling bit that I am not positive about (never really tested it rigorously) is I think moves like ZSS, Sheik, and TL's Dair do not make good momentum cancelers. I couldn't get it to work in frame advance nor in practice. I do not think those moves allow for fast falling.

 

[Rizen]

Auto-fast-falling is a trait of any down aerial done with the c-stick. Also, you cannot gauge best momentum canceling aerial because of what I said to Z'zagshi. The aerial you use is not the thing that makes you life longer. Its the fastfalling that does it and the fast falling is character dependent not which aerial you are using. You are right in the fact that Link momentum cancels better than MK. MK does not have as high of a fast fall as Link does and therefore when Link momentum cancels via fast falling he gets more of a benefit from momentum canceling than MK does.

But Link's Dair survives longer than his faster Bair. Dair has it's own FF property that's separate from Link's normal FF speed. TLink's might too; I've seen them do it (IDK?). Dair's properties actually do let Link survive longer off the top than his other aerials. Deva had a big thing about this.

Or we can just Ftilt > Uair > Shuttle Loop > dair.

Does that work? I guess if the opponent tried a SH approach and DIed the Ftilt up. If they DIed out then MK's Uair wouldn't be as good.

With MK's Nair you get essentially the same launch as Ganon's Uair but with less range. I guess I like the low angle launches as the only character who's a beach ball I have is Bowser and low launches are worse for most of my characters.

 

[infiniteV115]

What do you know about the mechanics of Link's Dair? Why do you assume it's not? Explain how I survived Wario's Uair at 153% on Brinstar.

Link just has a really good fastfall and is also fairly heavy, it has nothing to do with the dair itself. It was entirely because of the fastfall (and maybe the uair was stale idk how strong that **** is)

 

[DeLux]

Xeylode, duration would matter for horizontal moves no?

It would allow you with MK to Uair > FF > DJ >Uair > FF > DJ to augment your angle hmm?

 

[Rizen]

Link just has a really good fastfall and is also fairly heavy, it has nothing to do with the dair itself. It was entirely because of the fastfall (and maybe the uair was stale idk how strong that **** is)

Dair lets Link live off the top longer than Bair which is faster. You're not taking the move's dynamics into account. The idea for using the fastest aerial is to gain control and fast fall ASAP. Dair FFs before it actually ends. Link players have known this for years and applied it. Delux just said it:

Uair > FF > DJ >Uair > FF > DJ to augment your angle hmm?

Uair>FF...
Link's Dair it's self FFs.

 

[Delta-cod]

Adding on to DeLux's point, I'd love to see a Link Dair a horizontal knockback move because then he couldn't recover, lol.

 

[Sar]

Xeylode, duration would matter for horizontal moves no?

It would allow you with MK to Uair > FF > DJ >Uair > FF > DJ to augment your angle hmm?

Duration DOES matter if you're at all concerned of dying off the sides. The faster aerial allows you to use your double jump earlier, and double jump is useful because it cancels horizontal momentum.
Be careful of making assertions like that, Eryx.

 

[Sar]

The idea for using the fastest aerial is to gain control and fast fall ASAP. Dair FFs before it actually ends.

And this is wrong. You can fastfall DURING an aerial, so it doesn't matter how long the duration is. Dair might be better, though, because it fastfalls automatically. This means that you don't have to remember to do, say, bair and then press down on the control stick immediately after.

 

[infiniteV115]

The idea for using the fastest aerial is to gain control and fast fall ASAP. Dair FFs before it actually ends. Link players have known this for years and applied it. Delux just said it:

Other aerials can be fastfalled DURING the aerial as well you know...that's kinda what you're supposed to do when you're momentum cancelling. Link All players have known this for years and applied it. Eryx Vexia just said it.

 

[Espy Rose]

To be fair, I think most people (except Espy apparently) think Ganon's Uair is pretty good. I'm in that camp

Relative to Meta Knight's anything.

I'm considering investing time into each post by including emoticons.

 

[DeLux]

Actually let's be real, CAN you FF frame 1 of a non-Dair option? I always assumed it was frame 2 because of like, even frame perfect dual sticking you have to have a frame for aerial direction input THEN FF?

And Rizen, I think you misinterpreted what I meant when I said Uair > FF > DJ. That in theory could be 3 frames as far as I know

 

[Rizen]

Other aerials can be fastfalled DURING the aerial as well you know...that's kinda what you're supposed to do when you're momentum cancelling. Link All players have known this for years and applied it. Eryx Vexia just said it.

So why use the fastest aerial? The ending comes into it. Did you see the chart http://smashboards.com/threads/official-swf-matchup-chart-v3-0.338390/page-18#post-15725225
http://www.geocities.jp/kuso_dwi_lovers/list.html he just said MK's Uair is the fastest and best. Everyone uses the fastest aerial for a reason.

Link's Dair also momentum cancels best for a reason.

 

[Espy Rose]

Now, why does duration matter at all? To be honest, it doesn't really matter. The only reason you'd want to use the shortest aerial is for situations like when a character might hit you during your aerial lag so close to the blast zone like PIkachu's thunder or perhaps Falco who can jump really high.

Or if your name is Sonic, Mr. Game & Watch, Donkey Kong, or even possibly Yoshi.

 

[infiniteV115]

You use the fastest aerial if you're getting sent horizontally, because then you're fastfalling to reduce knockback but you also want to use a jump/B-move to prevent yourself from reaching the blastzone you're approaching (eg Pikachu sideB, bucket brake, etc) so you use the aerial with the shortest duration to get the next part out as soon as possible to prolong your life.

Vertically, the only thing that'll prolong your life is the fastfall because there's nothing else you can do afterwards, so it doesn't matter how long the aerial lasts.
The only exceptions are the 3 chars with B moves that completely halt all momentum (bucket brake, DK upB, Yoshi sideB) and stall-then-fall aerials (ZSS/TL/Sheik/Sonic dair, etc)

Here watch this vid and you'll understand how momentum cancelling works.

And THIS is why it doesn't matter what aerial you used to survive a Wario uair on Brinstar. You would have lived with a fair as well, assuming you fastfalled it.

 

[Espy Rose]

Sonic's downB also halts all momentum btw.

 

[Sar]

Actually let's be real, CAN you FF frame 1 of a non-Dair option? I always assumed it was frame 2 because of like, even frame perfect dual sticking you have to have a frame for aerial direction input THEN FF?

And Rizen, I think you misinterpreted what I meant when I said Uair > FF > DJ. That in theory could be 3 frames as far as I know

Actually you can. Watch the video V linked, if you hold down on the control stick and then input any aerial with the c-stick as soon as possible, it will automatically be fastfalled.

 

[infiniteV115]

Yup. Dual stick mechanics 2OP imo

Also interesting Espy I never knew that thanks bro ur a gud frend bro

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

You're wrong about ICs. Uair is a huge reason why they are such a good character beyond the CG. It makes their damage output quite versatile because it's fast, disjointed deals a lot of damage, can be used in tandem with the other climber and if fresh has pretty good knockback. It's very likely a top 3 uair in the game.

I agree with this that you need to look at the move set not just a single move, ie how gannon can have the potentially broken side B if any other character had it but gannon has such a bad move set other than it that it manages to barely be usable. And on the opposite end wario's down air isn't really disjoint or anything special, but considering his mobility it becomes amazing.

 

[Rizen]

You use the fastest aerial if you're getting sent horizontally, because then you're fastfalling to reduce knockback but you also want to use a jump/B-move to prevent yourself from reaching the blastzone you're approaching (eg Pikachu sideB, bucket brake, etc) so you use the aerial with the shortest duration to get the next part out as soon as possible to prolong your life.

Vertically, the only thing that'll prolong your life is the fastfall because there's nothing else you can do afterwards, so it doesn't matter how long the aerial lasts.
The only exceptions are the 3 chars with B moves that completely halt all momentum (bucket brake, DK upB, Yoshi sideB) and stall-then-fall aerials (ZSS/TL/Sheik/Sonic dair, etc)

Here watch this vid and you'll understand how momentum cancelling works.

And THIS is why it doesn't matter what aerial you used to survive a Wario uair on Brinstar. You would have lived with a fair as well, assuming you fastfalled it.

You're completely ignoring the built in FF of Link's Dair. Why do you think you know Link better than me? Or Ganon? You're just assuming things about Link's momentum canceling. The trial proven fact is it works better than other aerials. News flash: just because you play a high tier doesn't mean you know MUs you've never played or characters you don't use!

 

[DeLux]

Actually you can. Watch the video V linked, if you hold down on the control stick and then input any aerial with the c-stick as soon as possible, it will automatically be fastfalled.

I know it will automatically be FF'd (I wrote the dual sticking thread) lol

But as far as I knew when frame mapping, I was under the impression the game read:

Frame 0: input cstick while holding analog down
Frame 1: aerial cstick direction
Frame 2: Fast Fall on the dual stick "snap back"


I was wondering if someone did more precise testing than frame advance (since cstick doesn't work well in it) that would indicate that the true order would look like:

Frame 0: input cstick while holding analog down or Hit down on cstick
Frame 1: aerial cstick direction / Fast Fall

Since as far as I know the latter frame map reflects dair with the cstick while the former reflects any other aerial with the cstick and dual sticking

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Xeylode, duration would matter for horizontal moves no?

How do you know my user tag? I don't remember saying it ever.

Horizontal movement still has me a little unsatisfied. Anytime I try looking at horizontal movement for myself, I have never seen a super huge percentage reduction. No one ever really explained what is it that is saving you on horizontal. My assumption was it was the drifting you are doing on the 2nd jump, but I wonder about it still. Anyway's, what I said was primarily for vertical momentum that the duration is not all important.

But Link's Dair survives longer than his faster Bair. Dair has it's own FF property that's separate from Link's normal FF speed. TLink's might too; I've seen them do it (IDK?). Dair's properties actually do let Link survive longer off the top than his other aerials. Deva had a big thing about this.

This I would like to see a link too (pun not intended). If something like that exists which is better than his own fast fall on other aerials than that's interesting.

Duration DOES matter if you're at all concerned of dying off the sides. The faster aerial allows you to use your double jump earlier, and double jump is useful because it cancels horizontal momentum.
Be careful of making assertions like that, Eryx.

Rizens' posts puts in perspective lol We all must be wary haha.

Or if your name is Sonic, Mr. Game & Watch, Donkey Kong, or even possibly Yoshi.

When I was making up the Usmash KO percentage chart for Falco I attempted to test out those things with G&W and DK with a ceiling on FD/BF/SV (all extremely similar). Now, those special breaking methods unique to them actually do not benefit at all from the vertical momentum canceling. Characters from Falco's Usmash were able to active aerial on frame 25 (26?) after hitlag, but even the shortest aerials lasted so long they could not due their special breaking before dying (throwing in the fastfalling too). Also, the special moves would only active on frame 30(35?) after hitlag. So, the fast falling aerial was still their best vertical momentum canceling option. I think their special method of breaking only works when they are still in momentum even after the aerial ends which would be on very long trajectories like going from one side of the stage to the other horizontally. AKA their special momentum canceling is best for horizontal while fast falling aerial is still best for vertical.

 

[DeLux]

I'm a wizard

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Checking skype log
*paranoia sets in*

lol Convinced myself that 2nd jumping and drifting is what matters for reducing horizontal momentum. Air dodge though is potentially better than fastest aerial due to being able to activate air dodges sooner than aerials in hitstun by like 10 frames at times.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Isn't rizen the same guy from the zss vs link matchup discussion?

real.

Yes, yes he is.

I read almost every post from the last 3-4 pages. Oh my god, my head hurts.

Rizen, you're an idiot.

You're completely ignoring the built in FF of Link's Dair. Why do you think you know Link better than me? Or Ganon? You're just assuming things about Link's momentum canceling. The trial proven fact is it works better than other aerials. News flash: just because you play a high tier doesn't mean you know MUs you've never played or characters you don't use!

You were sent upward by a move that sends you vertically. You input the c-stick down (And probably held it with the c-stick and the analog). You instantly are now FF'ing with a Dair. By holding down with the analog and the c-stick, as well as using FF Dair, you lived.

You could've gotten the same effect if you FF'd a Bair and held down. It's just easier to do the former because it's less inputs.

If you were sent to the side (By like a Ftilt for example) I hope you wouldn't use Dair and use Bair.

Basically, Bair>Dair, but is a heavy **** regardless and I don't even know if Uair was stale. As long as you didn't hold up you probably would've lived regardless.

 

[Rizen]

Yes, yes he is.

I read almost every post.

Rizen, you're an idiot.

It's sad how much this is like the MU discussions. We have people who don't know characters, with no experience saying ignorant things, trolls pop in and spam insults, the topic's somehow guided in weird directions and Olimars and ROBs win by not posting.


Seagull, I respect you as a player and as someone who defends their opinions. I'm going to defend mine, just like you.
Me saying MK getting opponent's offstages and walling with Ganon's Uair being as good (or better IMO) as juggling with MK's Uair isn't unreasonable is it? MK's best offstage. As Wolf would you rather try to recover vs MK offstage or be above him?
What would you say to people arguing a MU they've never played? What if Yoshi players never played the Wolf Yoshi MU and wanted it -1? Do you realize the stupid **** low tiers constantly put up with like people saying Link's a -4 with ICs? ZSS being as bad for Link as Falco, using noobs you've critiqued as MU references, people saying Link won't live past 180 ever despite me doing it all the time with evidence? Idiot people just assume playing a good character means they know everything. I'm so sick of that entitlement attitude. Do I tell you how to play Wolf, or Ed how to play Zelda? No! When you play a character for 5 years you actually know how to use them.
You couldn't 3 stock me in a -3 MU of Link vs MK, and neither could any other MK except slither2hunter in 1 game and many MKs I took 2 stocks off like K9 and Delux. Many games off. Give me some credit man. You're in a big region; my region's almost dead. When it's not it's a 2-3 hour drive one way and the wifi connections suck. I still went all Link in 6 tournaments and I can use the 4th worst character in -3 and -2 MUs vs top players like you. It takes balls to be good with a terrible character. We're not playing to make money. It's just what we want to do.

I've EARNED the right to be respected as a Link player and with my secondaries too. I didn't have it easy either. You can disagree but I'm not some idiot who doesn't speak from experience.

 

[DeLux]

Wifi though

 

[Delta-cod]

The problem is Ganon's Uair doesn't have the same utility MK's Uair does. When I dodge MK's Uair, I get hit by MK's Uair or Shuttle Loop. When I dodge Ganon's Uair, I'm free.

 

[Rizen]

Wifi ZSS won Apex. There must be something to it.
A little respect's not too much to ask, you know.

The problem is Ganon's Uair doesn't have the same utility MK's Uair does. When I dodge MK's Uair, I get hit by MK's Uair or Shuttle Loop. When I dodge Ganon's Uair, I'm free.

That reminds me, I've been meaning to ask what's the Yoshi/MK MU? I have a scrub MK and Yoshi really surprised me, lol. I've hear Yoshi's one of the best 10 characters to fight MK.

 

[DeLux]

I'm 99% certain that Apex 2013 was an in person tournament, but I didn't attend so I'm not 100% sure.