Official SWF Matchup Chart v3.0

[infiniteV115]

Falcon's uair is also pretty good
And Ness/Lucas'

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I think Bowser's Uair is the best.





















































As in, the best feeling when you actually hit someone with it.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

i nailed someone with a zelda uair today

swag.

 

[Rizen]

The only reason ZSS's Uair is arguably better than Ganon's is it juggles so well. Ganon's Uair starts frame 6, slightly slower but it has good KO power, damage and covers a huge area all around Ganon except under him; better range than ZSS'. It can gimp with the semi-spike but it also power KOs. MK would be much harder with Ganon's Uair. Ganon's Uair is about as disjointed as MK's and reaches to the sides and down too. People are talking about ICs Uairs and such but Ganon's beats those in every way except 3 frames of cool down.

Don't simply dismiss a move because it can't juggle. There's no way Ganon's Uair is worse than any except ZSS'.

 

[Dekillsage]

mks uair hits on the 2nd frame lol

 

[DeLux]

And then we look at the two moves' FAFs and we discover that MK probably has the better Uair lol

 

[Djent]

Like Gheb said, Pika's UAir is up there. Not just because of its properties in a vacuum, but because of what it sets up for.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Ganon's uair range is really bigger than this? Is it anywhere near this disjointed? lol

 

[Rizen]

Ganon is a large character and his legs are disjointed during Uair; it's like Falcon's but bigger and stronger. In that it is bigger than ZSS' Uair.

I should clarify that Ganon has no extra jumps and terrible mobility. I'm only talking about Uair. MK has many jumps and ZSS is very agile. If they kept these good stats and got Ganon's Uair with them IMO they would be even better. Imagine MK with his recovery and jumps walling someone off with a Uair that has the range and power of Ganon's

And then we look at the two moves' FAFs and we discover that MK probably has the better Uair lol

But can MK's Uair do this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gt_heHxPRc0&feature=player_detailpage&t=144 tell me MK wouldn't be better with that Uair.

 

[DeLux]

But can MK's Uair do this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gt_heHxPRc0&feature=player_detailpage&t=144 tell me MK wouldn't be better with that Uair.

No he wouldn't

 

[Dekillsage]

Shuttle loop

 

[Rizen]

No he wouldn't

MK has multiple jumps that let that happen. It's not his Uair that's better.

 

[Espy Rose]

Even dair, arguably.

 

[infiniteV115]

Just to clarify on the range of ZSS' uair

That last photo is the sourspot that comes out behind her (yet still faster than her bair lol)
Her legs span a total of probably about 200° total, seeing as how it starts out pointing diagonally down and in front of her. And it maintains huge range and disjoint, except with not much disjoint on the first and last frame I don't think.
I don't see much of an argument for Ganon's uair being bigger than this. Or more disjointed. Or better. Sure, it kills better, but ZSS' combos and juggles better and still kills pretty well. She definitely would rather have her own uair than Ganon's.

Edit: And so would MK. MK doesn't need uair to do what you showed in that video, Rizen. That's what shuttle loop is for XD

 

[Grim Tuesday]

It's also the fact that the movie is ****ing frame 2, Rizen

 

[DeLux]

MK has multiple jumps that let that happen. It's not his Uair that's better.

It's the FAF that matters in that case if you couldn't tell >_>

Continued combo because of FAF AD before his AC frames of Uair to Uair > Buffer DJ > Uair? the 15ish frames of FAF difference matters

For every Uair Ganon throw, MK can get 1 + another to frame trap lol

And when you can frame trap to Nair/SL/Grab/Fair/Dtilt follow up etc. GGs, which with the Ganon frame data wouldn't be able to be done near the ground so you'd lose half the followups

 

[Rizen]

^The damage isn't great with only one double jump though. MK could only follow because he jumped 6 times. In the video you linked if MK had Ganon's Uair he would have launched Wario off stage and had 5 more jumps+shuttle loop to Uair wall him off. It's important to get the opponent offstage. Wario wasn't DIing very well.

It's also the fact that the movie is ****ing frame 2, Rizen

MK's is. ZSS' is 4. What if MK had Ganon's mobility and no extra jumps? How good would his Uair be then?
People are focusing on the other stats and not the Uair.

I can't find a hitbubble pic of Ganon's Uair but it is bigger. The argument is people saying they'd turn down a frame 6 Uair that kills Snake at 110%.
Like I said ZSS' Uair is the only one that might beat it.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Frame 2 uair with hardly any ending lag that combos into any move in the game > frame 6 uair that KOs

especially since MK already has a KO move when in that position; shuttle loop

 

[Rizen]

Frame 2 uair with hardly any ending lag that combos into any move in the game > frame 6 uair that KOs

especially since MK already has a KO move when in that position; shuttle loop

Ganon's is significantly larger though. MK's can be DIed; it's not a true combo and getting as many Uairs as that video is unusual. Ganon's gets opponents offstage better and it walls better because the spike, power and range. It's like a shuttle loop that doesn't cause gliding but can be used in place several times. MK could spam Ganon's Uair for even better results.

Let me ask, how many people actually use Ganon?

 

[infiniteV115]

Even with 2 jumps, MK could still get rising uair --> DJ uair --> aerial of choice/SL.
It also frame traps into tons of stuff. If Ganon had MK's uair and he was below an opponent and falling with them, he could frame trap them with uair-->dair if they airdodged the uair.

It can also pressure opponents on platforms above you because of the lack of cooldown. Ganon has to do falling uairs to be safe, MK doesn't.

 

[Rizen]

Even with 2 jumps, MK could still get rising uair --> DJ uair --> aerial of choice/SL.

How would the aerial of choice hit without another jump?

Ganon's Uair is not just falling. IDK why you think that. It's great rising, approaching, falling etc.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

He would completely lose the utility of using it on grounded opponents; that's massive, it's possibly the best "Shoryuken-esque" anti-air in the game. He would lose the massive momentum (and potential damage) it gives him at low % (Ganon's uair would just knock them away, and force MK to commit pretty hard if he wanted to capitalize on it a lot of the time - it'd be similar to MK's dsmash at low % if you want to envision how it would play out).

Almost every combo can be escaped somehow, you can call it a string if that makes you feel better, but you're undervaluing its follow-up potential massively ("you can DI it" - a frame 2 move on reaction? Good luck. Uair chains, sure, you can DI and make them harder to do, but DI doesn't kill MK's uair follow-ups lol); there's also the fact that it's an aerial frame trap, you can usually throw it out and guarantee a hit afterwards even if they dodge it.

He couldn't "spam" Ganon's uair because it has ending lag and landing lag. You miss, too bad. Some characters will even be able to punish you afterwards.

EDIT: He has to do falling uairs because if you rising uair someone on a platform and it doesn't hit them or hits their shield, you relinquish pressure and they can escape.

 

[infiniteV115]

How would the aerial of choice hit without another jump?

Ganon's Uair is not just falling. IDK why you think that. It's great rising, approaching, falling etc.

Because it doesn't have much knockback at low %.
And for the Ganon uair thing I meant as platform pressure.

 

[| Big D |]

If Ganon had MK's up air he would finally be putting that sword of his to good use.

 

[Rizen]

He would completely lose the utility of using it on grounded opponents; that's massive, it's possibly the best "Shoryuken-esque" anti-air in the game. He would lose the massive momentum (and potential damage) it gives him at low % (Ganon's uair would just knock them away, and force MK to commit pretty hard if he wanted to capitalize on it a lot of the time - it'd be similar to MK's dsmash at low % if you want to envision how it would play out).

Almost every combo can be escaped somehow, you can call it a string if that makes you feel better, but you're undervaluing its follow-up potential massively ("you can DI it" - a frame 2 move on reaction? Good luck. Uair chains, sure, you can DI and make them harder to do, but DI doesn't kill MK's uair follow-ups lol); there's also the fact that it's an aerial frame trap, you can usually throw it out and guarantee a hit afterwards even if they dodge it.

He couldn't "spam" Ganon's uair because it has ending lag and landing lag. You miss, too bad. Some characters will even be able to punish you afterwards.

EDIT: He has to do falling uairs because if you rising uair someone on a platform and it doesn't hit them or hits their shield, you relinquish pressure and they can escape.

Ganon can Uair ground opponents I approach with it. But Why would MK use Uair vs ground opponents when he has Dair?
MK gets about 2.5 Uairs (2%, 9%, 14% damage for 3 Uairs in that video Delux linked) for Ganon's 1 and the damage doesn't stack up to Ganon's; if Ganon had MK's Uair he'd take a huge loss in potential damage. MK's Uair is dependent on the jumps to be good.

It's easier to DI a string than a single move but DI's done in the stun (SDI) momentum after. Squirtle's frame 1 jabs can be DIed.

I get the feeling you have never played a Ganon who used Uair more than once in the air at a time. It's doable.

@ edit, why are people who don't play Ganon telling me how to play him? landing on a platform has lag you can rising Uair and punish even if they dodge. Ganon has a great rising Uair. Ganon's Uair lasts 10 frames to MK's 2. It's harder to miss entirely even though it ends later.

Because it doesn't have much knockback at low %.
And for the Ganon uair thing I meant as platform pressure.

It wouldn't lead to an aerial of choice without the extra jump to follow unless the opponent fell on top of MK.

Ganon's Uair has platform pressure.



We need someone else who uses Ganon in here lol.

 

[infiniteV115]

*facepalm*
I'm talking about like when the opponent is on the platform above you. Like when you're on the main stage of BF and they're on one of the side platforms. Chances are they're going to shield if you're close enough to hit them.

What I'm saying is that MK can use his uair to pressure since it's so safe on block due to the disjoint and lack of cooldown. If Ganon tried to platform pressure with his uair he'd have to do a falling uair, cause a rising one would be unsafe on block. That's what I'm saying. MK's uair is a better platform pressure tool than Ganon's.

 

[Rizen]

*facepalm*
I'm talking about like when the opponent is on the platform above you. Like when you're on the main stage of BF and they're on one of the side platforms. Chances are they're going to shield if you're close enough to hit them.

What I'm saying is that MK can use his uair to pressure since it's so safe on block due to the disjoint and lack of cooldown. If Ganon tried to platform pressure with his uair he'd have to do a falling uair, cause a rising one would be unsafe on block. That's what I'm saying. MK's uair is a better platform pressure tool than Ganon's.

I know. If the opponent's on a platform above you they're in a bad place regardless of the characters. MK's Uair has less shield pressure and push. MK gets 2 Uairs in but Ganon has better pressure and range. Granted MK's Uair is better for platform pressure.
Why do people keep saying Ganon has to fall Uair? It'd be stupid to wait when he can rising Uair sooner>land and punish if the opponent slides off the platform.

The reason people think Ganon's Uair is bad is they assume it is.

 

[Espy Rose]

That's because it is bad.

 

[Z'zgashi]

MK's uair is godlike, the single fastest aerial in the game BY FAR, comes out frame 2, combos into almost anything including itself, completely unpunishable if spaced right, and the best aerial move in the game for momentum canceling BY LEAPS AND BOUNDS

 

[Rizen]

That's because it is bad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=DQ7f-YDAaeA&t=53

MK's uair is godlike, the single fastest aerial in the game BY FAR, comes out frame 2, combos into almost anything including itself, completely unpunishable if spaced right, and the best aerial move in the game for momentum canceling BY LEAPS AND BOUNDS

It chains because MK's jumps. The damage is poor. It is a great move but you have to consider the other things that make it work. It's not the best momentum canceler; Link's Dair auto starts FF mechanics as it's happening and faster than MK's Uair ends. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=c4bMvey0Dpk#t=193s

 

[Delta-cod]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=DQ7f-YDAaeA&t=53


It chains because MK's jumps. The damage is poor. It is a great move but you have to consider the other things that make it work. It's not the best momentum canceler; Link's Dair auto starts FF mechanics as it's happening and faster than MK's Uair ends. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=c4bMvey0Dpk#t=193s

MK could just shuttle loop for the same effect there.

If MK had Ganon's Uair, he couldn't chain Uairs even if he retained his jumps anyways. Not only is Uair too slow, but it hits them too far away.

And why do you need another move that knocks people super far away at a bad angle when you already have Shuttle Loop and Dair?

 

[Z'zgashi]

First off, LOL if you think Link's dair is the best momentum canceler (or even close to the best). Do you even know how momentum canceling works? And second, even with less jumps, it still chains into itself, just less times, so Im not seeing your point here.

 

[Rizen]

MK could just shuttle loop for the same effect there.

If MK had Ganon's Uair, he couldn't chain Uairs even if he retained his jumps anyways. Not only is Uair too slow, but it hits them too far away.

And why do you need another move that knocks people super far away at a bad angle when you already have Shuttle Loop and Dair?

Because it would be like a wall of 2 shuttle loops a second in midair. MK hitting opponents offstage was never a bad thing for him.

 

[DeLux]

Has anyone watched a video yet without immediately exiting due to "wifi" in title?

 

[Z'zgashi]

Because it would be like a wall of 2 shuttle loops a second in midair. MK hitting opponents offstage was never a bad thing for him.

Or MK could use a 100% safe move that if it hits can be followed up by shuttle loop instead of having a slower, laggy ass move that has the same effect minus the safety shuttle loop has. Any character could follow up MK's uair if they had it with something ridiculous and often even better than Ganons uair.

 

[Rizen]

Ganon's Uair is as safe when spaced right. Link's Uair is too. A well spaced Uair being safe is not uncommon. No move is 100% safe; Pika's thunder, bombs beat it to name a few. You trailed off from Link's Dair momentum canceling btw.

Has anyone watched a video yet without immediately exiting due to "wifi" in title?

So you just ignore evidence?

First off, LOL if you think Link's dair is the best momentum canceler (or even close to the best). Do you even know how momentum canceling works? And second, even with less jumps, it still chains into itself, just less times, so Im not seeing your point here.

What do you know about the mechanics of Link's Dair? Why do you assume it's not? Explain how I survived Wario's Uair at 153% on Brinstar.

I never said MK's Uair couldn't chain into it's self. I said the extra jumps make it, which is true he could get 2 or 3 without them, and that Ganon's has better damage.



Before I go on does anybody actually play Ganon? I'm hearing ganon has to fall Uair and things that really are just theory-crafting and aren't true. We need DLA or someone in here who actually knows Ganon.

 

[Delta-cod]

Because it would be like a wall of 2 shuttle loops a second in midair. MK hitting opponents offstage was never a bad thing for him.

But he's giving up way too much to get that.

Why wouldn't he want a move that traps INTO a Shuttle Loop (so he only needs one), or pops the opponent up so they can be further trapped into Shuttle Loop.

Do YOU actually play Ganon? Where are your Ganon results? WiFi friendlies don't count, lol. I play Ganon in friendlies all the time.

 

[DeLux]

Yes, I do ignore videos of people poorly DIing moves as evidence of a moves kill power

The MKs would combo Uair > Sweet spot Nair in substitute of more Uairs from the DJs, which negates the "more damage from Ganon's Uair therefore it's better" argument.

The way MK's Uair is designed, it starts quicker (with ramifications being it's an extremely solid out of shield option and more versatile punish), has a lower FAF leading to more flexibility in followups for frame trapping AND combos, has an FAF that starts before the autocancel landing window allowing for pseuo L-Cancelling of aerial landing lag. That doesn't even mention auxiliary benefits of being able to use it as a fork/bait on opponents because of its speed towards following up with SL cancels.

Which leaves the fact that the only pros left mentioned are the horizontal range from Ganon's Uair which is negligible because of MK's other options with Fair having a ******** as hitbox and Bair1/2 comboing into ******** followups and having a ******** hitbox as well (which both can be done directly out of an Uair frame trap anyways). The other being the higher knock back, which is detrimental to followups as mentioned because of the FAF issues as well as negligible because of the follow ups of move moves like shuttle loop/Nair.

 

[Rizen]

^But again your riding on MK's other moves like Nair. I'm just talking about Uair. MK has great kill options, lol. Somehow my point ended up defending Ganon's Uair vs MK's moveset and I can't lol. MK too good.

But he's giving up way too much to get that.

Why wouldn't he want a move that traps INTO a Shuttle Loop (so he only needs one), or pops the opponent up so they can be further trapped into Shuttle Loop.

Do YOU actually play Ganon? Where are your Ganon results? WiFi friendlies don't count, lol. I play Ganon in friendlies all the time.

You're giving shuttle loop the credit. The original point was just about the Uair being better. MK has great moves, we all know this but can we defend Uair without trailing off?

Who uses Ganon in tourneys and gets results? You play a bad character, you know it's not easy to get results with bad characters and Ganon's the lowest, lol. What results do you have with Ganon? This is why I'm saying we need DLA in here.


You play Ganon right? What do you say about people saying it has to be falling? Or stuff like Espy simply saying Ganon's Uair is bad? Where would you rank his Uair out of all the Uairs?

 

[Espy Rose]

Rizen should try stand-up.