Official SWF Matchup Chart v3.0

[Grim Tuesday]

>___>

I'm happy to say that the MU is worse for Jigglypuff (I don't necessarily agree, but I don't really care either lol). My contention is that the MU is apparently UNWINNABLE for Jigglypuff; do the points listed above really justify such a massive difference between two very similar MUs?

 

[Ghostbone]

Well you described the same thing for kirby... The only difference is kirby's bair is way better, meaning the match-up is better for him.

Oh man
This is so wrong because
Kirby's only good move is bair
Meaning it gets 10x staled and becomes ****

While puff has multiple aerials to use for different purposes (like fair/bair for spacing and dair/pound for punishing, compared to kirby's bair for spacing, bair/sometimes grab for punishing, bair for killing)

 

[Alphicans]

Yes, the difference in character traits make it that much worse despite how similar the match-ups feel to play out. Kirby just generates more hits, and his fsmash is more forgiving when trying to land a kill on a landing snake. Kirby's dtilt also opens snake wide open at times, making his grounded game an actual threat.

Ghost bone, does kirby's grab mean nothing to you? Pummeling and grabs refresh moves bro.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Yes, the difference in character traits make it that much worse despite how similar the match-ups feel to play out. Kirby just generates more hits, and his fsmash is more forgiving when trying to land a kill on a landing snake. Kirby's dtilt also opens snake wide open at times, making his grounded game an actual threat.

If you gave Falcon the ability to generate a few more hits, kill with a little less risk, and an (apparently) usable move in a single, specific situation, would his MU against Meta Knight go from -3 to -1?

You can tell me specifically why it's not comparable if you want, but I hope you understand what I'm getting at. There is no way these differences warrant a MU value difference of -2, and there is no way the people who are suggesting that it does aren't caught in the throes of bias 'Oh me, oh my, it is impossible for Jigglypuff to not be terrible and to not be destroyed in what is notoriously her worst MU'. This dogmatic view is ridiculous lol

On that topic, if anyone's idea of how Jigglypuff is played is formed from watching matches like the one FredFuchs linked, you are so horrendously misguided that my words will do nothing lol

EDIT: Actually, that Puff at least has some kind of framework beyond 'SH bair over and over'. He's starting to learn higher-level Pound usage (the move is like amazing at low level, bad at mid level, amazing again at higher levels lol) and mixing up his ground movement, he also used ftilt at one point which was nice. But he is too reliant on the ground and his play is just lacking overall - bad option choices, bad spacing and bad habits. Also missed soooo many Rest opportunities.

 

[Ghostbone]

Ghost bone, does kirby's grab mean nothing to you? Pummeling and grabs refresh moves bro.

Pummel refreshes once (assuming they're mashing, you don't have the time to space out your pummels to stale it multiple times), throw refreshes once.

Well dam the other 8 moves in the stale moves queue are like 6xbair, maybe 1 tilt and 1 fair (that got punished on hit so it's still bad).

Oh and Jiggs throws put Snake in a worse position (off-stage or higher up) than kirby's do. (kirby d-throws then has to shield and give up the advantage, jiggs also chases better than kirby since she can actually follow snake's b-reversals with her air speed)

And Kirby has a hard time grabbing snake anyway (so does jiggs, but Kirby relies on his grab so heavily since it's his main way of unstaling bair)

Kirby is still like, the worst victim of stale moves in the game, Jiggs doesn't have that issue, that's way more important than you're giving it credit for.

 

[Alphicans]

Pummel refreshes once (assuming they're mashing), throw refreshes once.

Well dam the other 8 moves in the stale moves queue are like 6xbair, maybe 1 tilt and 1 fair (that got punished on hit so it's still bad).

Oh and Jiggs throws put Snake in a worse position (off-stage or higher up) than kirby's do. (kirby d-throws then has to shield and give up the advantage, jiggs also chases better than kirby since she can actually follow snake's b-reversals with her air speed)

And Kirby has a hard time grabbing snake anyway (so does jiggs, but Kirby relies on his grab so heavily since it's his main way of unstaling bair)

K...

First off your last line isn't exactly true. Snake's tilts are quite susceptible to being grabbed. Also grabbing snake out of his landings isn't very hard either. So even if you only get 2 refreshed moves from a grab (also no, you'll likely get more at higher percents), you'll get enough grabs and tilts that bair should at the very least be able to put snake off stage, which is honestly the goal you should be focusing on most of the time anways.

Why does kirby HAVE to shield after dthrow. Even if he does why does that give up the advantage (I see MKs do this a lot out of their dthrow, yet that move is completely broken).

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I just want to point out that Kirby's Utilt is pretty stupid. The foot is completely intangible throughout the entire time the hitboxes are out. And the foot itself is attached with a hitbox which gives kirby a huge disjoint over his head.

 

[Ghostbone]

More pummels doesn't mean you get more refreshes because you have to space them out, otherwise they only take up one slot in the queue.

Kirby can't easily put Snake in a position to be grabbed. Kirby spends most of his time camping because that's all he can do in this matchup.

Even if you put Snake off stage he recovers high and generally b-reverses back to the ground in safety.
And all you can punish with anyway is bair, which is staled to hell and won't ever kill.

Kirby has to shield after d-throw because bair beats anything else he tries to do, and grenade at least trades with everything else.

Idk what I'm even arguing for, Kirby vs Snake is terrible and Jiggs vs Snake is about the same but slightly worse because Jiggs camping gives Snake more time to set-up stuff. (they're both -2)

Edit: Kirby's u-tilt does nothing vs snake, it gets beaten out by all of snake's tilts. "Kirby's Utilt is pretty stupid" yea well Snake's tilts have like twice the range with more damage.

 

[Alphicans]

Getting tripped out by b-reverse is pretty scrubby. You may not always get a direct punish, but it's very easy to keep him locked in his shield upon landing, especially when you're grounded and have a good dash grab (kirby's run speed is better, and dash grab is better, and his utilt is silly).

Also, if kirby gets snake's power, he can plank the ledge and deal out damage quite easily tbh. Not much snake can do about it at all. Unfortunately I don't see kirby go for the power steal, cause they usually just spit him out, putting snake into a not-so-bad position :/.

 

[FredFuchs]

ok so it's settled. jiggs sucks and kirby sucks slightly less. let's talk about a more interesting mu that no one sees like fox vs shiek or peach vs snake

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

More pummels doesn't mean you get more refreshes because you have to space them out, otherwise they only take up one slot in the queue.

Kirby can't easily put Snake in a position to be grabbed. Kirby spends most of his time camping because that's all he can do in this matchup.

Even if you put Snake off stage he recovers high and generally b-reverses back to the ground in safety.
And all you can punish with anyway is bair, which is staled to hell and won't ever kill.

Kirby has to shield after d-throw because bair beats anything else he tries to do, and grenade at least trades with everything else.

Idk what I'm even arguing for, Kirby vs Snake is terrible and Jiggs vs Snake is about the same but slightly worse because Jiggs camping gives Snake more time to set-up stuff. (they're both -2)

Edit: Kirby's u-tilt does nothing vs snake, it gets beaten out by all of snake's tilts. "Kirby's Utilt is pretty stupid" yea well Snake's tilts have like twice the range with more damage.

Staled moves is more of a player issue rather than a match-up one. If you want to keep Bair as a KO option, you can start replacing many situations with alternative moves which kirby can do. Bair is nicer, but there are still alternatives. Snake on a platform? Fair/Uair instead will still work nicely. Trying to catch an airdodge? Fair. Perhaps eating through Snake's cypher? Uair instead.

There is a lack of forcing grabs, but situations due arise against Snake to get them compared to other characters like MK or Wario.

This is why I brought-up Utilt. Due to the intangibility on the foot of Utilt, Snake trying to Bair his way through wont' work due to the huge disjoint on Utilt. It just comes down to spacing and timing on the move to beat out a Bair attempt. And it can also be spaced (like any other move on snake) to avoid grenades. Not trying to bring it up for all-purpose sort fo move like Snake's Utilt, but just pointing out another move Kirby has that is rather nice and rare properties on a move when you said Bair was the only move kirby has that is good.

 

[Ghostbone]

Staled moves is more of a player issue rather than a match-up one. If you want to keep Bair as a KO option, you can start replacing many situations with alternative moves which kirby can do. Bair is nicer, but there are still alternatives. Snake on a platform? Fair/Uair instead will still work nicely. Trying to catch an airdodge? Fair. Perhaps eating through Snake's cypher? Uair instead.

His other options don't work for multiple reasons
Fair is unreliable, hardly even linking into itself most of the time, and being able to be SDI'd out of.
Uair hits above him, not exactly great when someone's falling past you, it's start-up also leaves much to be desired.
When snake's on a platform, he's just going to shield both of them, they won't get added to the stale moves queue.

Like just watch Kirby vs Snake, it's literally just bair over and over again because that's kirby's only option most of the time. And it's a terrible approach, he has to hope snake blows himself up so he doesn't have to approach.

This is why I brought-up Utilt. Due to the intangibility on the foot of Utilt, Snake trying to Bair his way through wont' work due to the huge disjoint on Utilt. It just comes down to spacing and timing on the move to beat out a Bair attempt. And it can also be spaced (like any other move on snake) to avoid grenades. Not trying to bring it up for all-purpose sort fo move like Snake's Utilt, but just pointing out another move Kirby has that is rather nice and rare properties on a move when you said Bair was the only move kirby has that is good.

The hitbox from Snake's bair would either clank with or outright eat kirby's u-tilt.
But yes, U-tilt is situationally good, it's one of his like, 5 usable moves (grab, bair, u-tilt, f-smash, inhale)
Though out of those, only like bair and grab to punish landings work vs snake reliably. (inb4 uair is good for juggling, it's only good to force air-dodges that you can then punish with bair....)

 

[Alphicans]

:/ everything Eryx said is pretty much correct, and everything you just said is pretty much wrong. Like not even imo wrong, just flat out wrong. For example, kirby's utilt should beat out snake's bair outright in virtue of the disjoint and in virtue of ground moves > aerials.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

That depends entirely on both character's position.

 

[-LzR-]

So what if bair is stale? Why does Kirby give a single ****? He has plenty of powerful actually viable moves that can instead.

 

[Alphicans]

That depends entirely on both character's position.

You're right, but the only times bair will "beat" utilt is probably when the kirby shouldn't even consider using utilt in the first place.

 

[RoxburyGuy58]

Geez I don't remember Ness being this bad, although I haven't been to a tournament since 09 so I guess things change. Looks like we still need more good Ness players.

Also I'm pretty sure he should be at least even with Ike, unless I'm missing something? His power is dangerous, yes, but I've always found him to be more of a big walking target than anything else.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

You're right, but the only times bair will "beat" utilt is probably when the kirby shouldn't even consider using utilt in the first place.

That logic works both ways though.

 

[Dekillsage]

Also, if kirby gets snake's power, he can plank the ledge and deal out damage quite easily tbh. Not much snake can do about it at all. Unfortunately I don't see kirby go for the power steal, cause they usually just spit him out, putting snake into a not-so-bad position :/.

When before snake couldn't challenge kirby directly on the ledge because of inhale, I can now take actual risks and go for things when he's on the ledge! Go ahead and pick kirby and try to throw a grenade from the ledge and get fair'd for it because its the most telegraphed thing in the world.

Also kirby can't plank and deal damage like that either, no one is stupid enough to have that happen to them. You being on the stage can throw grenades back at kirby, stopping the grenades he threw, time them to blow up as he throw them, or limit his ability to do anything really. All kirby gets from getting that power if a way for me to not let him back on the stage.

I just want to point out that Kirby's Utilt is pretty stupid. The foot is completely intangible throughout the entire time the hitboxes are out. And the foot itself is attached with a hitbox which gives kirby a huge disjoint over his head.

lol

Kirby can't easily put Snake in a position to be grabbed. Kirby spends most of his time camping because that's all he can do in this matchup.

Even if you put Snake off stage he recovers high and generally b-reverses back to the ground in safety.
And all you can punish with anyway is bair, which is staled to hell and won't ever kill.

Kirby has to shield after d-throw because bair beats anything else he tries to do, and grenade at least trades with everything else.

Kirby shouldn't be d-throwing if bair will beat options that aren't shield. Regardless if he does then it becomes rps and even if he wins it, doesn't mean much. Fthrow-> mix up is way more reliable.

With proper spacing kirby doesn't grab snake for ****. That much is true.

If we recover high, kirby is basically guessing the majority of the time. People tend to think snake has a problem landing when he's one of the best at choosing where he wants to go. Kirby can't keep up with that speed, and if he does the punish is like a bair IF he made it there in time. Means nothing

So what if bair is stale? Why does Kirby give a single ****? He has plenty of powerful actually viable moves that can instead.

Lol like what? How is he landing these secret powerful moves to kill me? Fsmash doesn't even hit snake unless you airdodged into kirby, something you never have to do.


More thoughts

If you think Kirby can stall snake or play campy and beat him, you're wrong. That's the most joke strategy I've ever seen in my entire life(falln vs havok) because the truth is snake doesn't have to do **** to beat it. You stand, cook a grenade, throw where kirby wants to land and it wont work. OR you just don't go to smashville, so you don't even have to think about that strategy being used against you.
Kirby jumps around you and what is he going to do? You can beat bair with utilt clean every single time, and his mix ups are some of the slowest gimmicky things out there. Just stand and wait, that's all there is too it.
Killing him isn't even an issue either. His weight is a joke, punishing his landings is free, killing him off dthrow is free. This match up is free.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

You can beat bair with utilt clean every single time

That's just straight up not not true.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Curiosity, how many people here frequently get to play the Kirby vs Snake match-up at all? I got access to it fairly often.

Like just watch Kirby vs Snake, it's literally just bair over and over again because that's kirby's only option most of the time. And it's a terrible approach, he has to hope snake blows himself up so he doesn't have to approach.

The hitbox from Snake's bair would either clank with or outright eat kirby's u-tilt.
But yes, U-tilt is situationally good, it's one of his like, 5 usable moves (grab, bair, u-tilt, f-smash, inhale)
Though out of those, only like bair and grab to punish landings work vs snake reliably. (inb4 uair is good for juggling, it's only good to force air-dodges that you can then punish with bair....)

Interesting advice to watch a kirby vs snake match. How its played exactly depends upon the player which I feel I saw after watching Chudat vs Ally at Xanadu (2 or 3 years ago match) compared to how Falln attempted vs Havokk by simply platform camping the entire time. And yet again I see the match-up played different when I play RRR vs snake too. I see bair walling attempts many times, but I also see kirby players manage to throw in ground play and get away with it. Another thing I forgot is that Snake when going for grenade play cannot grab a crouching kirby or shield grab a dtilt attempt. And grab is snake's only option for holding nades without first having to through laggy spot dodge/roll or shield drop animation first. Since holding a nade is typically held behind snake spaced Dtilt's will not explode as they attempt to poke Snake. I dunno. I'm just confused why so many people think Kirby must wall Bair's the entire match instead of simply trying to outplay the other person upclose.

Anyway, aerials cannot clank at all. Have you seriously ever seen any aerial clank at all with a move? It doesn't happen (glide attacks like MK's is different though). And with Kirby's intangible foot (the bones or character model on the foot removes his hurtbox during the time the hitbox is active). Snake's bair hitboxes are centered around his body. There is not enough disjoint on his bair to get through the disjoint on Utilt from kirby.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzVRPLCt6T8 Quick vid showing the spacing of missing and how the bair would collide with kirby's foot, but without the hurtbox there snake's bair gets eaten up.

 

[infiniteV115]

Aerials can clank, but only with certain moves.
ie moves that clank with everything that isn't transcendent, such as nado/bouncing suitpiece/pikmin attacks that aren't upB

 

[-LzR-]

Nado is a special, suitpieces are items and pikmin are an exception because they are living things you can actually hit.
The only actual aerial that clanks I can think of is Zss nair and that move seems to be quite meh.

 

[Alphicans]

Yo dekillsage did you just suggest beating kirby planking with snake fair?

 

[DeLux]

Snake's RAR SH FF Fair has been his best kept edge guard secret until middle 2013

 

[NickRiddle]

MVD knows the secret.

 

[Dekillsage]

Yo dekillsage did you just suggest beating kirby planking with snake fair?

When he has your power yes. You can beat it with fair

 

[Dekillsage]

Curiosity, how many people here frequently get to play the Kirby vs Snake match-up at all? I got access to it fairly often.

Every friday for 2-3 years

That's just straight up not not true.

It beats it. If you think kirby will bair you utilt and it hits him clean, everytime.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

It'll be punished if you guess wrong.

 

[Dekillsage]

It'll be punished if you guess wrong.

Is this game not about making reads and decisions? I could choose to not do anything, but there is an answers to bair (utilting isn't the only one) if I choose to make that read.

 

[Alphicans]

Lol utilt beats nado every single time too if you do it right and know the spacing, but guess what? nado ***** snake. And I am sorry I can't take you seriously if you think that magically kirby players are going to be complete morons just because they have snake's powers. Just cause he doesn't have inhale anymore, doesn't mean you're not gonna eat insane amounts of damage for going for the worst aerial of all ****ing time.

 

[DeLux]

RAR Fair Rare Fare?

Do it intelligently (rarely and sparingly) for surprise punishment cost

RAR Fair Rare Fare why 2014

 

[Rizen]

Grim IDK if I want to hug your avatar or shoot it.

 

[Dekillsage]

Lol utilt beats nado every single time too if you do it right and know the spacing, but guess what? nado ***** snake. And I am sorry I can't take you seriously if you think that magically kirby players are going to be complete morons just because they have snake's powers. Just cause he doesn't have inhale anymore, doesn't mean you're not gonna eat insane amounts of damage for going for the worst aerial of all ****ing time.

what insane amount of damage am I going to take for going for fair when kirby is on the ledge throwing grenades now? Think about it for a second
Kirby is on the ledge, kirby jumps back and pulls nade
what can he do? Get hit by fair


Its not hard. If he didn't do it and hits me then why should I care? He'll bair me like twice, I'll go high and recover safely. You don't know **** homie

 

[RaptorTEC]

"You don't know **** homie" - Killsage 2013

 

[| Big D |]

Lol utilt beats nado every single time too if you do it right and know the spacing, but guess what? nado ***** snake. And I am sorry I can't take you seriously if you think that magically kirby players are going to be complete morons just because they have snake's powers. Just cause he doesn't have inhale anymore, doesn't mean you're not gonna eat insane amounts of damage for going for the worst aerial of all ****ing time.

Bowser's dair is worse imo.

 

[Alphicans]

I can't tell the trolls from the dumb

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I can't tell the trolls from the dumb

It's pretty simple.

If they're from Toronto: Troll
If they post stupid faces: Troll
If they have terrible grammar: Troll

 

[Dekillsage]

Couldn't help myself

 

[DeLux]

I can't tell the trolls from the dumb

Troll Role Troll Toll