Official SWF Matchup Chart v3.0

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I agree, the only times Vacuums should be considered is when playing against Kirby or King Dedede.

 

[Iota]

For one, she has turnips. I assume that since you didn't mention them at all you don't think of them as any use at all. However, I think it still has its uses despite being relatively nonthreatening. For one, if Wario ever tries to do anything about Turnips in the air he as already committed to an action. For example, say he tries to air dodge or aerial grab a turnip. In the lag he put himself in, Peach (if close enough) can just go and attack Wario in that lag he put himself in. That's one way to force an action and hit Wario. Its a similar situation with insta-tossing the item too, but a bit harder to punish (depends upon the angles peach can try hitting Wario from). Otherwise, if Wario is straight-up avoiding turnips without a move (just drifting around), then Peach is already forcing an approach by funneling Wario closer to Peach and eventually into landing lag. To me, it just all really comes down to peach being clever about turnip placement and being ready to cover Wario's actions after seeing what he does with turnips and his eventual landing/ending lag and keeping Wario pinned down (if he got to the ledge for example).

I am not sure about kill set-ups, but yeah, grab is an obvious set-up into a kill potentially. About getting that grab in the first place... I think there are some set-ups into grab. Jab mix-up for one. Again, Wario's landing lag or attempt to hit peach and messing up (player mistake at that point). Another I think is hitting with float cancel dair, but I am not positive on that one. Oh, and turnips I forget if they have fixed lag or not, but that is potentially another location for getting grab. Either way, kills will come with time and enough percent. So, if Peach can keep Wario, then you get your kill eventually.

Also, what sort of pokes are you thinking about at all?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7L613gmGW8
Oh, and here is an example of what I mean by Turnips causing that follow-up. Just look in the first few seconds. Iota grabs a turnip (I think by accident), but he lands on the platform with a turnip in landing lag. Had CS Dinah not plucked another turnip there, but just went and attacked he might have gotten a nice meaty punish with Utilt. Another problem caused by Wario trying to grab turnips (without insta-tossing or straight up avoiding) is that he losses like all of his attacks options because he has a turnip in hand.

tl;dr(?) In short, turnips don't' force Wario to approach at all if he doesn't' want too. But, they do force him to make actions and therefore peach can follow-up on those actions depending upon what it is and the placement of the characters on the stage.

I'm going to get to this in much more detail later if I can when I'm on my computer but I'll list a few things now.

Wario should not be getting punished for air dodging through a turnip or grabbing one. He is far too mobile compared to peach for her to be able to force that kinda thing. If you're actually close enough to make said punish then the Wario is doing something wrong as you shouldn't be point blank when peach is in neutral with a turnip (unless you have a tire). Turnips can in no way "funnel" our approach closer to you, and we shouldn't really be landing near you without an aerial covering us from your grab.

I'm going to be blunt, jab is a joke of a grab set up. It's incredibly easy to just buffer a roll away so that it's impassible to grab us, in fact rolling away from you is a very strong option when we need space if you don't have a turnip since your mobility is trash. I don't get why Wario would ever commit to a landing that would get him grabbed, peach does not have the tools to force that kind of thing. Turnips can combo into grab at low percents but..I personally don't think we should be grounded long enough to get GT'd->grabbed. Without grab FYI, peach can't kill Wario till 150%+ with proper spacing on our part.

Wario pokes with fair, bair, weak Nair; tires, bike (eats through your aerials when used right), etc.

I think it's really funny you used a wifi match from over a year ago that I played right after my first tourney. I could probably John about not having any wifi warm-ups but...I'm pretty sure I was still so bad I went even vs Dinah in lag lol. ( no offense to Dinah)

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I'm going to get to this in much more detail later if I can when I'm on my computer but I'll list a few things now.

Wario should not be getting punished for air dodging through a turnip or grabbing one. He is far too mobile compared to peach for her to be able to force that kinda thing. If you're actually close enough to make said punish then the Wario is doing something wrong as you shouldn't be point blank when peach is in neutral with a turnip (unless you have a tire). Turnips can in no way "funnel" our approach closer to you, and we shouldn't really be landing near you without an aerial covering us from your grab.

I'm going to be blunt, jab is a joke of a grab set up. It's incredibly easy to just buffer a roll away so that it's impassible to grab us, in fact rolling away from you is a very strong option when we need space if you don't have a turnip since your mobility is trash. I don't get why Wario would ever commit to a landing that would get him grabbed, peach does not have the tools to force that kind of thing. Turnips can combo into grab at low percents but..I personally don't think we should be grounded long enough to get GT'd->grabbed. Without grab FYI, peach can't kill Wario till 150%+ with proper spacing on our part.

Wario pokes with fair, bair, weak Nair; tires, bike (eats through your aerials when used right), etc.

I think it's really funny you used a wifi match from over a year ago that I played right after my first tourney. I could probably John about not having any wifi warm-ups but...I'm pretty sure I was still so bad I went even vs Dinah in lag lol. ( no offense to Dinah)

Not sure what's amusing about using that video. Its hard to describe the exact spacing and situations one is trying to talk about without bringing in a screenshot or video to help provide a clearer picture to what one is talking about. What should you playing for your first time after a tourney or being on wifi have to do at all with what I am trying to discuss? I don't even care who won or lost in the video. I don't even care if it was a CPU playing a CPU or some newbie playing another newbie on Hyrule castle. I only care about like this 2 second interval 0:04-0:06 and the rest I don't care about at all. All I was using that video for was showing a situation where a wario (having grabbed a turnip due to an air dodge) puts himself in lag and because of it lands on a platform directly underneath peach. Its one of the prime examples I am trying to illustrate where turnips help set-up for situations where peach can attack Wario relatively safely.

Anyways, the main point of bring up turnips is that its a tool that Peach has to attempt to combat Wario. Perhaps its a weak one (you/me/others will come to different conclusions), but its there nonetheless. Stage, players, actions, and positioning will all determine whether or not the turnip proved to be useful in the end or not. In player-player interactions, its a tool that is helpful in this situations of trying to deal with Wario's camping. There is a difference between a tool being useless and a tool being helpful. Turnips against Wario do not fall under useless as Ganon trying to Utilt wario's camping would.

 

[Iota]

Not sure what's amusing about using that video. Its hard to describe the exact spacing and situations one is trying to talk about without bringing in a screenshot or video to help provide a clearer picture to what one is talking about. What should you playing for your first time after a tourney or being on wifi have to do at all with what I am trying to discuss? I don't even care who won or lost in the video. I don't even care if it was a CPU playing a CPU or some newbie playing another newbie on Hyrule castle. All I was using that video for was showing a situation where a wario (having grabbed a turnip due to an air dodge) puts himself in lag and because of it lands on a platform directly underneath peach. Its one of the prime examples I am trying to illustrate where turnips help set-up for situations where peach can attack Wario relatively safely.

Anyways, the main point of bring up turnips is that its a tool that Peach has to attempt to combat Wario. Perhaps its a weak one (you/me/others will come to different conclusions), but its there nonetheless. Stage, players, actions, and positioning will all determine whether or not the turnip proved to be useful in the end or not. In player-player interactions, its a tool that is helpful in this situations of trying to deal with Wario's camping. There is a difference between a tool being useless and a tool being helpful. Turnips against Wario do not fall under useless as Ganon trying to Utilt wario's camping would.

I'm fairly certain that if I got hit by a u-tilt, it would've been because I veered towards peach after catching the turnip, not because I catched it in the first place. I couldve easily avoided that situation by just moving away from peach when I caught it instead of going towards her.

Turnips are there to help screw up Wario with weak pressure but they seriously do not realistically help pressure our landing options as long as we decide to not commit to anything silly. However, depending on the stage lloD has created walls with turnip play that I've found to be very hard to fight, so you can have that as a use for turnips I suppose.

Btw, I found the video funny cause its a poor example of my playing and of the MU in general.

 

[Ghostbone]

I'm going to be blunt, jab is a joke of a grab set up. It's incredibly easy to just buffer a roll away so that it's impassible to grab us

Peach can just side-b the roll though, lol.
(inb4 side-b is trash, not when you're rolling away which you claim to be a great option?)

Wario pokes with fair, bair, weak Nair; tires, bike (eats through your aerials when used right), etc.

And peach's bair beats all of that lol.


Sure if you never commit to anything Peach will have a hard time hitting you
But you're not committing to anything and won't get any damage on her, and she has turnips, a projectile, which can also end up being beam swords or mr.saturns (happens often enough in really campy matchups like against Jiggs or Wario), and you're giving up stage control.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I feel pressure to approach as Puff because I fear the beam sword lol, dunno if Wario has the same trouble dealing with it tho

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Grounded peach bomber hits on Frame: 24.
16 frame cool down for jab1.
Roll away is 37 frames.
Include the time it takes for peach bomber to cover all the distance Wario already put on after rolling away.

Jab wario -> peach bomber to cover roll away is not going to cover it. Wario will be able to shield before it ever hits him.

 

[Ghostbone]

If you buffer a roll away wouldn't you be hit by jab2 in the startup.
Plus the incredibly difficulty of buffering a roll off a frame 2 move on reaction.

And since when was forcing your opponent towards the edge of the stage a bad thing anyway...

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

If you buffer a roll away wouldn't you be hit by jab2 in the startup.
Plus the incredibly difficulty of buffering a roll off a frame 2 move on reaction.

And since when was forcing your opponent towards the edge of the stage a bad thing anyway...

-You can buffer inputs during a slew of sections in this game. When hit with jab you go through hitlag don't forget . This coupled with jab having the cool down period equates to like 1/3 of a second. Your body can react to that and make an input.
-Depending upon the character your stage position doesn't always mean anything. MK will be just as annoying near the ledge, on the ledge, or in the center of the stage. I'd say the same thing for Wario with his drifting and platform play.
-At jab1 -> jab2, I have no idea. Besides, the whole point of rolling is to avoid being grabbed in the first place. Thus, as Iota puts it, roll gets Wario away from being killed. Either because you hit him with jab2 (maybe stopping the roll) or just plain cannot get grab out in time.

 

[Ghostbone]

-You can buffer inputs during a slew of sections in this game. When hit with jab you go through hitlag don't forget . This coupled with jab having the cool down period equates to like 1/3 of a second. Your body can react to that and make an input.

K we'll use the frame data you gave.
Peach bomber hits on frame 24 (we can add a few frames for travel time I suppose? Though the detect box only comes out during while she's moving), Wario can shield on frame 38, so he needs to roll 14 (minus about 3?) frames before peach can do anything, which is (16-11=)5 frames after jab, jab comes out on frame 2 so that's 7 frames after it starts, jab has 1 frame of shield stun, so 8 frames, it'd need like 7 frames of hitlag (which it has nowhere near, though I can't find the frame data on that) to be reasonably dodged on reaction. (reaction time is less than 15 frames/0.25 seconds, but you need time to account for multiple options and your multiple responses...)

ie. If Peach predicts Wario's b-roll in reaction to Jab1, and she side-b's, it will hit.

-Depending upon the character your stage position doesn't always mean anything. MK will be just as annoying near the ledge, on the ledge, or in the center of the stage. I'd say the same thing for Wario with his drifting and platform play.

Rofl
This might be true if there was no LGL, but stage control/positioning is important in basically every matchup in the game.

-At jab1 -> jab2, I have no idea. Besides, the whole point of rolling is to avoid being grabbed in the first place. Thus, as Iota puts it, roll gets Wario away from being killed. Either because you hit him with jab2 (maybe stopping the roll) or just plain cannot get grab out in time.

You're rolling towards the blast zone meaning even staled fair from Peach will kill.
Peach has ways to kill besides grab release > u-smash, especially if you're hanging around the edge where her horizontal kill moves kill way earlier.


But anyway, the point is that back-rolling away from Peach to give yourself more space is counter-productive when you're just limiting your space by rolling towards the edge of the stage.
And if she predicts the roll she can actually hit you out of it, rather than it being an infallible movement tool >.>

 

[Iota]

And peach's bair beats all of that lol.


Sure if you never commit to anything Peach will have a hard time hitting you
But you're not committing to anything and won't get any damage on her, and she has turnips, a projectile, which can also end up being beam swords or mr.saturns (happens often enough in really campy matchups like against Jiggs or Wario), and you're giving up stage control.

lloD pulled a bo-bomb and 2 stitches during the set. Peach pulling items in this MU is going to happen no matter what because -- even if we lose the MU -- it's incredibly campy on both sides. Wario doesn't want to approach until he sees an opening or has a set up with his tires, and Peach just wants to try and wall Wario out forever.

I don't think you know how Wario's poke game works if you think something 'beating' it head on stops it. However I'm not going to argue further on this point as this is gets to the technical part of the MU that I can't explain properly for Wario.

K we'll use the frame data you gave.
Peach bomber hits on frame 24 (we can add a few frames for travel time I suppose? Though the detect box only comes out during while she's moving), Wario can shield on frame 38, so he needs to roll 14 (minus about 3?) frames before peach can do anything, which is (16-11=)5 frames after jab, jab comes out on frame 2 so that's 7 frames after it starts, jab has 1 frame of shield stun, so 8 frames, it'd need like 7 frames of hitlag (which it has nowhere near, though I can't find the frame data on that) to be reasonably dodged on reaction. (reaction time is less than 15 frames/0.25 seconds, but you need time to account for multiple options and your multiple responses...)

ie. If Peach predicts Wario's b-roll in reaction to Jab1, and she side-b's, it will hit.

You're rolling towards the blast zone meaning even staled fair from Peach will kill.
Peach has ways to kill besides grab release > u-smash, especially if you're hanging around the edge where her horizontal kill moves kill way earlier.


But anyway, the point is that back-rolling away from Peach to give yourself more space is counter-productive when you're just limiting your space by rolling towards the edge of the stage.
And if she predicts the roll she can actually hit you out of it, rather than it being an infallible movement tool >.>

I don't really get how either of you thought I meant b-roll was the end all tactic for getting out of Peach's pressure. It's just really good as it prevents Peach from a). giving anymore aerial pressure if she's doing her fair/dair bull on us, and b). it prevents her from grabbing us. Side-b does work at beating it but that's purely as a mix-up. If I decide to do anything other than roll (e.g. nair, fair, grab) then you're getting punished for it.

Stale fair doesn't kill at the ledge until 140-160+ with good DI. It's really, really bad as a kill move when it's stale which is why you always have people saying Peach is horrible at killing. Bair doesn't kill until around that same % range, especially when stale (which it usually is in this MU). Also, we can just jump over you to the other side of the stage if we're getting too close to the ledge. It's not like you have the mobility to chase us without possibly committing to something horrendously hazardous. I.e. where we are on the stage often doesn't portray the space we're limited to in this MU.

 

[-LzR-]

Fair really shouldn't be used much against Wario anyways so it should be fresh when needed.

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the current discussion is how peach clearly beats wario +1 do to her ability to wall him out and get the kill easier than usual. While the warios feel that it's probably close to a 0 mu. This is right after basically without any arguing both the wario mains and marth mains came to the agreement that marth doesn't really win +2 more of +1 because in reality wario has the tools to get around marth's zoning game.

So the peaches are effectively arguing that marth and peach are basically in the same ball park for difficulty for wario? I really don't see how anything peach has can compare to marth's zoning, mobility, and killing power... At least not in this mu.

 

[Ghostbone]

So the peaches are effectively arguing that marth and peach are basically in the same ball park for difficulty for wario? I really don't see how anything peach has can compare to marth's zoning, mobility, and killing power... At least not in this mu.

Uhh
I don't know what to say to this besides Peach isn't Marth
They're like completely different, and Wario plays differently against them.

For example, Peach actually has fast close ranged moves (eg. frame 3 nair, frame 2 jab), and OoS options that don't put her into helpless, she has a projectile, she can pressure shields, she doesn't have a massive blind spot below her (infact dair is really hard to outspace), she has long lasting hitboxes, kills earlier from a grab, up-b can't be ledge-hogged, etc. Not to mention her floatiness (both fall speed and ability) make her more difficult to string than marth....
(I'm not saying Peach is better than Marth, but to compare the two and say "well marth does better in these aspects" while completely ignoring the rest of the character's traits is ludicrous)

Marth's easy to get inside, less threatening once Wario's next to him, and his moves are easier to bait and punish compared to Peach, at least for Wario.

Is Peach better in the matchup than Marth? Not necessarily. Does she do better in some aspects and worse in other aspects? I'd think that's a given...

 

[Rizen]

In my experience from fighting vs Peach and Wario, but not as them, it seems like both characters do well from the higher ground. In other words, Peach and Wario both like to hop or float a bit above the opponent's level. Both can retreat and stall. So the reason Peach does well vs Wario is she has a very effective tactic to space him and wall him out with floating? And her grab release of course. Wario can't abuse her blind spot from above like he can vs other characters.

Like, when I play G&W vs Peach the match often revolves around who can use the (literally) higher spacing. Peach wins if G&W's below but she can't do much besides reset if G&W's attacking from a bit higher. G&W has good disjoint unlike Wario so he has the advantage.

That's my take.

 

[smashkng]

Marth hardly has any blind spots on his aerials at all except below him. When spaced correctly approaching Marth from above should be extremely hard because of the large range on his aerials and very low amount of cooldown on them (especially when they're fast falled correctly). He also has a decent Utilt and fast ground speed to change positioning quickly from the ground. Not only that, but he also has ridiculous pivot grab to use to stop Wario's approaches from above. Fair only hits slightly below him and Dair lasts for too few frames below. Peach isn't the only good character at shield pressuring. Marth's really good at that too because of his range and very low amount of lag on his aerials and Dtilt. Marth has pretty good mobility too to make his spacing one of the more consistent in the game. It's true that Marth's hitboxes don't last very long, but it's not a big problem at all in the Wario MU unless you're bad at timing moves.

Peach may actually not be better than Marth at close range. Marth's better at close-mid range (around the tip of DB) cause it outranges many characters' moves with few amount of frames in start-up. But Marth's CQC is still good in a weird way because if you do ANY attack on him at close that isn't invincible like MK's GSL, Up b will always beat it and he only needs ONE frame to gain the option to Up b. Plus Marth's OoS is so good that he can punish almost anything OoS if you're fast enough with reacting too. Marth is pretty good at covering options that beat Marth's DS as well with his other options, so I wouldn't say "oh Marth's so easy to fight at close range" because it certainly is at least above average and it certainly is better than Wario's CQC game. Marth overall also has significantly better mobility than Peach to get out of CQC easier when necessary.

Peach doesn't kill earlier from a grab than Marth does. Marth has GR reverse SS tipper Fsmash, which kills around 90 % or something like that closer to the edge and around 95% from the center of the stage when fresh. GR tipper Fsmash works even if grabbed near a BF plataform. Peach's Usmash kills around 95% from a GR on Wario. Peach can only reliably kill from a grab in this MU, Marth can kill with more than just grabs. Also, Marth has a lot more options than just Up b from shield (good Marth even know when Up b will hit, so they rarely miss that). Fair OoS for example is a really safe OoS option. And his standing grab is longer than Peach's. It's even longer than Wario's too, so at the range Wario can grab he may himself risk getting grabbed unless it's about shield grabbing a poorly spaced attack that Marth did (if he gets Marth to run out of space, although he is pretty good at recovering space too with the help of his mobility).

Right now I can only see Peach doing better than Marth in 2 aspects of the Wario MU. 1 Avoiding hits when above Wario because of a better anti-juggle Dair (although she MAY not do better overall because Marth has both a better fast fall and better horizontal aerial speed + aerials still protect really well once he's no longer directly above, but more like diagonally above). 2 is having access to floating. Rest is either even or Marth is better at that against Wario.

 

[NickRiddle]

Peach can kill at lower %s from a grab because she can lock Wario into regrabs all day.

 

[Vinylic.]

Off the current topic, Would someone tell me why Kirby/Wario is still -1.

I don't even understand. Sorry for the interruption.

 

[Ghostbone]

Off the current topic, Would someone tell me why Kirby/Wario is still -1.

I don't even understand. Sorry for the interruption.

Because Kirby's the most overrated character.
/you can only be so good when you have like 5 moves.

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

Peach can kill at lower %s from a grab because she can lock Wario into regrabs all day.

I'm sorry NickRiddle, but could you explain this for me? How does peach lock wario into regrabs? I'm not sure how that would work.

 

[Sinister Slush]

When Wario is grab released he goes straight up and down for some reason. So a lot of characters has a chaingrab on him. Yoshi for example has an infinite on him.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Wario gets infinited by a small portion of the cast, I know Yoshi can infinite him (like Slush said), Bowser can infinite Wario with both Air Release AND Ground Release, and even Ganon can infinite Wario lol.

 

[smashkng]

Peach can only GR infinite Wario if he has wasted his double jump.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Wario can side b out of Peach's infinite even if he doesnt have double jump if I remember correctly.

 

[Rizen]

I'm sorry NickRiddle, but could you explain this for me? How does peach lock wario into regrabs? I'm not sure how that would work.

For Ganon it looks like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQIXyUwOccc

 

[NickRiddle]

She doesn't get a guaranteed footstool?
I've seen it happen, so I thought it was legit.

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

If peach has a guaranteed grab release infinite that would a bit of a game changer because as is her grab is only a kill at high percents plus wario isn't exactly easy to grab...

 

[NickRiddle]

Wario's not easy to grab, but in order to hit Peach without tires doesn't he need to be in, or close to, her grab range?

 

[Iota]

Every character has a guaranteed footstool out of GR on Wario. However the only character who has an infinite out of said footstool is pikachu iirc. Peach has a weak nair lock regrab thingy that goes to a certain percentage but it doesn't go anywhere near kill percents. Also, again, Peach's grab sucks. Wario shouldn't be getting grabbed by Peach, seriously. You can just outspace her grab all day with bairs and cross-ups. If you're getting pivot grabbed by Peach then you're being outplayed.

 

[Player-1]

Falcon has 0 to death on wario

Falcon +4s wario

 

[Iota]

Keep dreaming P-1. Keep dreaming.

 

[NickRiddle]

Doesn't Peach footstool > float > falling bair lock >regrab Wario?

 

[1PokeMastr]

For Ganon it looks like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQIXyUwOccc

You're doing that wrong.
Ganon has to take a step forward for that to work.


Yeah, that's how it works on Wario, NickRiddle.

 

[Iota]

Doesn't Peach footstool > float > falling bair lock >regrab Wario?

She can do both bair and nair iirc, but they both stop locking at a certain percent. (I'm not 100% about nair but I'm 100% about them not being a 0-death FYI)

 

[NickRiddle]

It stops before u-smash? Okay.

 

[Iota]

It stops like 40-50% before u-smash pretty sure. It's barely worth the amount of technical effort you have to put into it imo.

 

[| Big D |]

I would imagine grab release to upair string would be a much better tool to use imo.

 

[Lord Chair]

I don't think anyone here understands Wario-Peach dynamics. Typical how the discussion revolves around bair and grab release.

 

[Iota]

You don't have to be so blunt about it LC lol.

 

[Vinylic.]

Because Kirby's the most overrated character.
/you can only be so good when you have like 5 moves.

Thanks for not answering my question.

I've participated in an MU discussion regarding to Wario and I do and most of the people there discussed.
http://smashboards.com/threads/warios-match-ups.319826/page-23