Official SWF Matchup Chart v3.0

[Cassio]

Goddang, looks like Im late to the party with this release. Nice work guys.

Looks like I missed some fireworks. Pika vs MK is even. That was one of the only completed discussions we had. Free to explain but I guess peeps might be done with it.

RedHal thunder might be considered more avoidable if youview pika as a linear character. But hes far from it, preparing yourself to DI uptilt leaves you open to sunset DIing an nair or other unfortunate mishaps (even the optimal DI for a utilt vs upsmash are in opposite directions). Not to mention that MKs weight and low aerial mobility makes him a sitting target in the air, even with good DI simply running after him (given proper amounts of hitstun) gives a roughly 50-50 chance at tagging him anyways.

That being said I agree that getting hit by thunder is stupid. About as stupid as pika dying to aerieal shuttle loop off the side ever, or grounded shuttle loop below 150%. Cause 'reaction time' and good DI should clearly prevent all of this from happening. But you know what, BS still happens. Both characters get their BS kills, and its all the same in the end.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Input Shine using Special + Cstick down while holding up on analog stick

That's cheating .

If it was transcendant, glide attack would worse, in my opinion, it'd trade with everything.

Just like nado if it were transcendant, trade with everything.

And Seagull, I'd expect you to know that Shuttle Loop is transcendant.
If I've seen it used to hit Mk's out of nado a billion times, you probably have too.

AND WHY DOES NO ONE DI ON REACTION.

My explanation above was for just aerial shuttle loop. Sorry for the confusion. GSL has invincibility on startup.

Marth vs Wario is probably just +1, not +2. If the Wario uses uair as perfectly as Glutonny does, that is. I don't see anybody except him doing it though so I'm not surprised that a lot of people think it's +2.

In an unrelated note, I really think vs might be leaning to even. Iota beat LLOD yesterday at the tourney I went to 2-0. All he did was camp, poke, and eventually kill. Reflex namesearch.

How does honestly force someone as mobile as to approach her and jump into the **** when his poke game vs her is so good?

 

[Rizen]

How does honestly force someone as mobile as to approach her and jump into the **** when his poke game vs her is so good?

0:34
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=FLA30ii-DTQ#t=34s

 

[FourStar]

Goddang, looks like Im late to the party with this release. Nice work guys.

Looks like I missed some fireworks. Pika vs MK is even. That was one of the only completed discussions we had. Free to explain but I guess peeps might be done with it.

RedHal thunder might be considered more avoidable if youview pika as a linear character. But hes far from it, preparing yourself to DI uptilt leaves you open to sunset DIing an nair or other unfortunate mishaps (even the optimal DI for a utilt vs upsmash are in opposite directions). Not to mention that MKs weight and low aerial mobility makes him a sitting target in the air, even with good DI simply running after him (given proper amounts of hitstun) gives a roughly 50-50 chance at tagging him anyways.

That being said I agree that getting hit by thunder is stupid. About as stupid as pika dying to aerieal shuttle loop off the side ever, or grounded shuttle loop below 150%. Cause 'reaction time' and good DI should clearly prevent all of this from happening. But you know what, BS still happens. Both characters get their BS kills, and its all the same in the end.

the only problem with pika being even with MK is all the butthurt people that think pika sucks

 

[Z'zgashi]

ESAM vs MK is even.

Fixed

 

[Sinister Slush]

Pretty much sadly.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Fixed

Can you show that? Because ESAM vs MK is totally not even.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I think he mostly means through discussions that ESAM won. Otherwise yeah he's been losing to MK mains while beating them every now and then.
Well that and MK panel had to deal with ESAM and Tagxy cassio, whatever people feel like calling him.

 

[Cassio]

Yeah that

OR

You have no idea what the heck youre talking about when discussing the MK-Pika MU, and the only way to voice your dissent with a MU you have no knowledge of is to make critical attacks against knowledgeable players on the side you disagree with.

SFP I understand the point you want to make (though results arent as strong as you imply), but this isn't a results based MU Chart. Id suggest reading (or rereading) Armada's post in regards to how this was approached.
http://smashboards.com/threads/official-swf-tier-list-v8.335959/page-9#post-15474204

 

[Z'zgashi]

I think he mostly means through discussions that ESAM won.

^ This.

No Pikachus, not even ESAM, have been able to consistently trade sets or have even win percentages against top MKs, they lose the majority of the time. Sure, ESAM wins sometimes, but not enough to warrant an even imo. In fact, ESAM's ICs have just as good of a record against top MKs, and that MU is considered -1.

 

[Rizen]

the only problem with pika being even with MK is all the butthurt people that think pika sucks

This is the first time the premise of Pika sucking has ever come up that I can recall.

 

[Sinister Slush]

He joined in 2013, I wouldn't take anything he says with a grain of salt

 

[Seagull Joe]

the only problem with pika being even with MK is all the butthurt people that think pika sucks

He does suck.

 

[Cassio]

^ This.

No Pikachus, not even ESAM, have been able to consistently trade sets or have even win percentages against top MKs, they lose the majority of the time. Sure, ESAM wins sometimes, but not enough to warrant an even imo. In fact, ESAM's ICs have just as good of a record against top MKs, and that MU is considered -1.

Confirmation bias: selectively picking (or quoting ) information that supports pre-conceived notions. The MU wasn't deemed even for the reasons you mentioned, as I mentioned earlier this isnt a results chart. Also ESAM isnt a character, although Im sure itd boost his ego significantly if he were.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Also ESAM isnt a character, although Im sure itd boost his ego significantly if he were.

Because we all know that he definitely needs a bigger ego.

 

[Dekillsage]

Can't spell pikachu without esam

 

[Seagull Joe]

Can't spell pikachu without esam

Funny that Esam's name is a play on . Time for him to change his name to Epika.

 

[FourStar]

personally i think MK should be even with IC's. i honestly don't have an opinion on pika vs MK though

 

[Shaya]

Most marth's don't think we beat wario that badly.

Its the Warios who think we win the match up ;\

 

[Dekillsage]

You do
by how much whoooooo cares

personally i think MK should be even with IC's. i honestly don't have an opinion on pika vs MK though

On Fd you can say ics vs mk is even
otherwise nooooope I just don't see it

 

[FourStar]

He joined in 2013, I wouldn't take anything he says with a grain of salt

thats such an ignorant thing to say dude. just cuz i joined this year? what the hell is that supposed to mean?

 

[Sinister Slush]

Not so much as ignorant but more of practical.

 

[FourStar]

On Fd you can say ics vs mk is even
otherwise nooooope I just don't see it

really? i feel like smashville and fd give IC's such a huge advantage with lack of platforms. and yes there is platform on smashville but if IC's stay away from the platform you can take away the option of allowing MK to use the moving platform. from what i've seen it seems like MK has the best advantage on a stage with multiple platforms and they use those platforms to seperate Nana and Popo.

 

[Espy Rose]

You guys are missing a major point. Pikachu's panel had Cassio AND Esam on it.
Would you really, honestly, truly want to put yourself through that kind of crap for a single match up?

I know I wouldn't.

 

[Sinister Slush]

You guys are missing a major point. Pikachu's panel had Cassio AND Esam on it.
Would you really, honestly, truly want to put yourself through that kind of crap for a single match up?

I know I wouldn't.

Well that and MK panel had to deal with ESAM and Tagxy cassio, whatever people feel like calling him.

Basically what everyone is not seeing.

 

[Dekillsage]

@4star Doesn't give them an advantage, it just makes the match up easier. Mk's stall on the moving platform and prolong the neutral game on smashville, I don't really see it being that good of a stage in the match up.

Separating the climbers isn't hard once you win neutral, but the neutral game is scary because when MK wins its opportunity to do damage and when Ic's win its a 0-death. But the reason why I say its not an even mu is because many of Ic's grab set ups stop working once a character reaches I think 30%? and because the game plan is to hope MK makes a mistake or make a really good read(you see nakat do this often). They can't force anything, at least its not in their favor to try and do so.

MK players last I saw where still doing attack -> grounded shuttle loop -> other stuff, which is odd. You'd think they'd do nado for better positioning once they win neutral.

 

[FourStar]

@4star Doesn't give them an advantage, it just makes the match up easier. Mk's stall on the moving platform and prolong the neutral game on smashville, I don't really see it being that good of a stage in the match up.

Separating the climbers isn't hard once you win neutral, but the neutral game is scary because when MK wins its opportunity to do damage and when Ic's win its a 0-death. But the reason why I say its not an even mu is because many of Ic's grab set ups stop working once a character reaches I think 30%? and because the game plan is to hope MK makes a mistake or make a really good read(you see nakat do this often). They can't force anything, at least its not in their favor to try and do so.

MK players last I saw where still doing attack -> grounded shuttle loop -> other stuff, which is odd. You'd think they'd do nado for better positioning once they win neutral.

i see that makes sense. so i guess MK really doesn't have any disadvantages. other than this continuous MK vs pika stuff which will never end....

 

[BlueXenon]

You do
by how much whoooooo cares


On Fd you can say ics vs mk is even
otherwise nooooope I just don't see it

I don't understand why MK is worse on FD vs Ic's. Instead of using platforms to escape punishment, he can use the ledge. It's also a very big stage so when a mk knows his tornado attempts aren't going to work, he should be able to retreat far enough to not get grabbed.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

so i guess MK really doesn't have any disadvantages.

You're just realizing this now????

 

[FourStar]

You're just realizing this now????

hint hint sarcasm buddy

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

hint hint sarcasm buddy

Oh good, you caught on.

 

[DeLux]

I don't understand why MK is worse on FD vs Ic's. Instead of using platforms to escape punishment, he can use the ledge. It's also a very big stage so when a mk knows his tornado attempts aren't going to work, he should be able to retreat far enough to not get grabbed.

If you compare it to smashville -

If an IC can make a hard read on the MK's landing patterns, they can get a grab on FD. By adding the platform, an IC has to make a hard read on the MK's landing pattern as well as execute some difficult tech (ie. 16 frame window if Nado is properly spaced to platform cancel > buffered dash grab).

At least, that's the simplest way to put it

 

[FourStar]

Oh good, you caught on.

i think i knew that when i first started playing. MK's only weakness is the person who plays him

 

[Iota]

In an unrelated note, I really think vs might be leaning to even. Iota beat LLOD yesterday at the tourney I went to 2-0. All he did was camp, poke, and eventually kill. Reflex namesearch.

How does honestly force someone as mobile as to approach her and jump into the **** when his poke game vs her is so good?

She can't. Wario can literally just camp for waft and try to break the bike forever. The only thing that stops us from doing so is the timer. Like...her lead isn't really there until the timer runs out or all of our stocks are gone because of how strong our comeback factor is if we try to get tires n stuff.

Also, lloD only got 2 grabs the entire set on me and he wasn't able to follow up on either of them due to the platform and a slight technical error. Peach has no real way to force the grab without outplaying the opponent, and in that case it's not really a good example of the match up now is it?

 

[Ghostbone]

i think i knew that when i first started playing. MK's only weakness is the person who plays him

ehhh
MK has weaknesses

His strengths just allow him to account for them like they don't exist. (eg. low aerial mobility accounted for by a glide and super high mobility with all his specials)

Peach vs Wario is about +1
Peach is actually scary when she can kill, and ignoring the grab release, wario often has to put himself in a position to be hit by stuff like sweetspot bair and nair.

 

[Rizen]

Can Peach do something like Nair landing cancel>Grab? I hear something like that but IDK.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

In an unrelated note, I really think vs might be leaning to even. Iota beat LLOD yesterday at the tourney I went to 2-0. All he did was camp, poke, and eventually kill. Reflex namesearch.

How does honestly force someone as mobile as to approach her and jump into the **** when his poke game vs her is so good?

For one, she has turnips. I assume that since you didn't mention them at all you don't think of them as any use at all. However, I think it still has its uses despite being relatively nonthreatening. For one, if Wario ever tries to do anything about Turnips in the air he as already committed to an action. For example, say he tries to air dodge or aerial grab a turnip. In the lag he put himself in, Peach (if close enough) can just go and attack Wario in that lag he put himself in. That's one way to force an action and hit Wario. Its a similar situation with insta-tossing the item too, but a bit harder to punish (depends upon the angles peach can try hitting Wario from). Otherwise, if Wario is straight-up avoiding turnips without a move (just drifting around), then Peach is already forcing an approach by funneling Wario closer to Peach and eventually into landing lag. To me, it just all really comes down to peach being clever about turnip placement and being ready to cover Wario's actions after seeing what he does with turnips and his eventual landing/ending lag and keeping Wario pinned down (if he got to the ledge for example).

I am not sure about kill set-ups, but yeah, grab is an obvious set-up into a kill potentially. About getting that grab in the first place... I think there are some set-ups into grab. Jab mix-up for one. Again, Wario's landing lag or attempt to hit peach and messing up (player mistake at that point). Another I think is hitting with float cancel dair, but I am not positive on that one. Oh, and turnips I forget if they have fixed lag or not, but that is potentially another location for getting grab. Either way, kills will come with time and enough percent. So, if Peach can keep Wario, then you get your kill eventually.

Also, what sort of pokes are you thinking about at all?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7L613gmGW8
Oh, and here is an example of what I mean by Turnips causing that follow-up. Just look in the first few seconds. Iota grabs a turnip (I think by accident), but he lands on the platform with a turnip in landing lag. Had CS Dinah not plucked another turnip there, but just went and attacked he might have gotten a nice meaty punish with Utilt. Another problem caused by Wario trying to grab turnips (without insta-tossing or straight up avoiding) is that he losses like all of his attacks options because he has a turnip in hand.

tl;dr(?) In short, turnips don't' force Wario to approach at all if he doesn't' want too. But, they do force him to make actions and therefore peach can follow-up on those actions depending upon what it is and the placement of the characters on the stage.

 

[Espy Rose]

ehhh
MK has weaknesses

His strengths just allow him to account for them like they don't exist. (eg. low aerial mobility accounted for by a glide and super high mobility with all his specials)

I find it hard to believe you can still call a weakness a weakness when the character has abilities to completely nullify said weakness.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I find it hard to believe you can still call a weakness a weakness when the character has abilities to completely nullify said weakness.

Even if you can nullify a weakness, if the weakness still exists it should be recognized as a weakness.

Forgive the rather.. extreme example I'm about to use, but Ness and Lucas have a huge weakness in their grab release, but they can nullify the weakness by not getting grabbed. That doesn't mean their grab release isn't still a weakness.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Looking at character traits in a vacuum is silly anyway.