Official SWF Matchup Chart v3.0

[Grim Tuesday]

He's right though, Kirby is stupidly overrated.

 

[Espy Rose]

I still think he gave Kirby too much credit.

 

[Ghostbone]

I can't believe in Kirby being anywhere near decent when he hasn't had any results since ever and he has one of the simplest playstyles/kits in the game.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

His MK MU is definitely worse than -2 as well.

I can't see any way for Kirby to KO Meta Knight if MK has the lead.

 

[Luco]

His MK MU is definitely worse than -2 as well.

I can't see any way for Kirby to KO Meta Knight if MK has the lead.

GROUNDED HAMMER GOGOGOGO!

I dunno, ask da kirby mains. :o :3

 

[Ghostbone]

I can't see any way for Kirby to KO Meta Knight if MK has the lead.

You die so bair gets refreshed and can kill.

 

[Sunnysunny]

Down-B
Obviously.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Idk, Kirby seems very limited and one-dimensional and his bad MUs vs MK, ICs and Olimar don't help him either. But he seems to be at least viable against Falco, Diddy, Snake, Wario, Marth and pretty much every other character as well, except possibly ZSS. He's probably still solid mid-tier and better than Peach and GW [who are currently ranked higher than Kirby].

 

[Ghostbone]

Idk, Kirby seems very limited and one-dimensional

better than GW

Isn't the reason you think G&W sucks because he's limited and one-dimensional.

If you really think Kirby has more/better options than G&W I'd say you're delusional.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Yeah but

Kirby [...] seems to be at least viable against Falco, Diddy, Snake, Wario, Marth and pretty much every other character as well, except possibly ZSS.

Hence I think that Kirby might be a better character overall.

 

[Rizen]

Isn't the reason you think G&W sucks because he's limited and one-dimensional.

No he's 2 dimensional.
G&W and Peach>Kirby.
G&W's limited but he has great stats in mobility, recovery, disjointed reach and power. Unless a character has tools that can exploit G&W he can be difficult because his stats alone.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Idk, Kirby seems very limited and one-dimensional and his bad MUs vs MK, ICs and Olimar don't help him either. But he seems to be at least viable against Falco, Diddy, Snake, Wario, Marth and pretty much every other character as well, except possibly ZSS. He's probably still solid mid-tier and better than Peach and GW [who are currently ranked higher than Kirby].

It's funny how people can say that Kirby is viable against Marth and Snake, but for some reason they are both unwinnable match-ups for Jigglypuff.

 

[Luco]

It's funny how people can say that Kirby is viable against Marth and Snake, but for some reason they are both unwinnable match-ups for Jigglypuff.

Yea true but, in kirby's defense, in Snake's case, kirby can throw grenades right back at ya! (sorry for the shameless reference) PPP

 

[Ghostbone]

It's funny how people can say that Kirby is viable against Marth and Snake, but for some reason they are both unwinnable match-ups for Jigglypuff.

Kirby has bair though
Bair > everything
Bair till it's 10x stale, fish for F-smash, then die because it's so obvious, and fresh bair for the kill
Flawless strategy.

And kirby's matchups are way overrated, G&W would do better in all of them.

 

[Iota]

Falco is a terrible MU for Kirby. Junebug beat Chudat with a pocket Falco before Chu quit.

 

[Dekillsage]

Idk, Kirby seems very limited and one-dimensional and his bad MUs vs MK, ICs and Olimar don't help him either. But he seems to be at least viable against Falco, Diddy, Snake, Wario, Marth and pretty much every other character as well, except possibly ZSS. He's probably still solid mid-tier and better than Peach and GW [who are currently ranked higher than Kirby].

I mean if kirby being -2 vs snake is viable then sure. GW is better than kirby, free.

It's funny how people can say that Kirby is viable against Marth and Snake, but for some reason they are both unwinnable match-ups for Jigglypuff.

v115 explained it best. Rack up damage and anti air with utilt, then proceed to kill with utilt

Falco is a terrible MU for Kirby. Junebug beat Chudat with a pocket Falco before Chu quit.

I think +1 falco makes sense in this match up. Falco is the cooooolest

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I mean if kirby being -2 vs snake is viable then sure.

If the matchup were -2 I wouldn't call it viable. But it isn't -2 so idk what you are talking about son.

 

[Dekillsage]

It's +2 lol
I'd put my pride at stake that I can beat any kirby player out there in this +2 match up.

 

[Cassio]

Falln thinks its more evenish/pretty doable. Cant recall his exact opinion, but he does pretty well vs snake and I think has a recent win on MikeRay.

 

[Dekillsage]

Damn well I can't argue with that

 

[Sar]

WHERE DID THE CHART GO??!?!?!

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I agree with falln, it's not that bad.

FOR THE SAME REASON THAT PUFF/SNAKE ISN'T THAT BAD AROSJBGNOSDOINDSF

 

[Ghostbone]

I can't see any reason for Kirby to do decent against falco aside from "lol duck under lasers"

He can't bair because they turn him around, gg.

 

[Ishiey]

WHERE DID THE CHART GO??!?!?!

It still shows up for me :x anyone else having this issue?

 

[Ghostbone]

It still shows up for me :x anyone else having this issue?

I can't see the chart unless I open it in imageshack.

 

[Rizen]

It still shows up for me :x anyone else having this issue?

Only a broken image link like the one Truth's pika is hiding behind.

 

[| Big D |]

Image shack has been really dumb lately, our PR image is on there and it's only like up half the time.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Snake
Well, in the Snake vs Kirby match-up, Kirby has some nice traits that Jigglypuff just does not have which make the match-up far more manageable. The biggest one to me is the fact that Kirby has a much higher fast falling speed than jigglypuff does. While both are able to follow Snake in the air relatively well, its the fact that Kirby can accelerate upwards to snake and down with him that makes it far easier to juggle him. One good timed fast fall air dodge as Snake and he is getting past Jigglypuff while Kirby on the other hand can follow the air dodge and other moves Snake might make like avoiding a FF bair/uair and punish Snake's lag by the time he gets to the ground. Jiggs cannot always do that.

Another nice feature is Kirby has much better ground tools than jigglypuff does. For one, Jiggs is slow on the ground with pathetic ranging moves. Grab from kirby from one traps Snake very well at lower percents leading to relatively decent follow-ups such as Fthrow or Dthrow while Jiggs doesn't get this nice trapping action from any of her throws. The ground mobility is a rather nice feature to have as Kirby since you can space, shield, and dodge compared to Jiggs which has to rely more on the air mobility which is primarily a spacing game which Snake can beat out with utilt potentially (yes, despite staling it).

http://www.smashboards.com/threads/usmash-ko-percents.309050/
Since vertical knockouts are far more prevalent with Snake you can see from this that Jigg's dies far sooner to a Falco Usmash than Kirby does which is due primarily to the difference in fast falling speed gives Kirby a greater momentum cancel than Jigglypuff can afford. Thus, Kirby will naturally be living longer versus Snake than Jigglypuff will be.

Oh, and I suppose that having shallow and hammer are an additional gimmicky features Kirby has over Jiggs. When Snake is forced to cypher, Kirby can get a free Hammer attempt and if for some reason he manages to get a shallow that leads to Kirby being able to camp Snake right back. Although, these features are not as important in my opinion.

Otherwise, with all this in mind it makes sense to me why Kirby vs Snake might be a -1 for Kirby. Its hard to get in on snake (harder for jiggs), but once Kirby gets in he can punish harder than jiggs and keep a strong advantage.

Marth
I imagine that Kirby/Jiggs vs Marth is a similar argument as the snake one above. Kirby having the access to the ground speed can get in on Marth far easier than Jiggs can which again is more prevalent with aerial approaches than moving along the ground. Once again the weight and fast falling speed helps Kirby keep up with Marth in the air leading to easier juggles while jiggs struggles with that. Marth doesn't like having a kirby floating underneath him at all once he's in the air.

 

[Seagull Joe]

It's +2 lol
I'd put my pride at stake that I can beat any kirby player out there in this +2 match up.

Go MM Chu.

 

[Dekillsage]

Go MM Chu.

Bring him out of hiding.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Snake
Well, in the Snake vs Kirby match-up, Kirby has some nice traits that Jigglypuff just does not have which make the match-up far more manageable. The biggest one to me is the fact that Kirby has a much higher fast falling speed than jigglypuff does. While both are able to follow Snake in the air relatively well, its the fact that Kirby can accelerate upwards to snake and down with him that makes it far easier to juggle him. One good timed fast fall air dodge as Snake and he is getting past Jigglypuff while Kirby on the other hand can follow the air dodge and other moves Snake might make like avoiding a FF bair/uair and punish Snake's lag by the time he gets to the ground. Jiggs cannot always do that.

Regardless of various ways you can compare Puff/Kirby's traits in a vacuum, in an actual match, Puff's punishes are as strong as Kirby's. Make of that what you will (I'd probably put it down to the fact that being unable to follow Snake as well vertically in the air is mitigated because Puff can cover more space horizontally in the air than Kirby can, and thus stay below Snake and cover all of his options. But I'd be happy to agree that Kirby can punish harder for the sake of my point, sure.

Another nice feature is Kirby has much better ground tools than jigglypuff does. For one, Jiggs is slow on the ground with pathetic ranging moves. Grab from kirby from one traps Snake very well at lower percents leading to relatively decent follow-ups such as Fthrow or Dthrow while Jiggs doesn't get this nice trapping action from any of her throws. The ground mobility is a rather nice feature to have as Kirby since you can space, shield, and dodge compared to Jiggs which has to rely more on the air mobility which is primarily a spacing game which Snake can beat out with utilt potentially (yes, despite staling it).

Puff's up throw sets up for later hits as well as Kirby's fthrow (because of the aforementioned horizontal-covering thing - this isn't just a 'chance' thing either, it puts Puff in a situation where she should hit Snake 90% of the time, and like 75% of the time that 'hit' can be another grab). Kirby's ground options don't do much for him against Snake that Puff can't also do with her extra air options (they are both just situational tools, not match-up defining traits).

Kirby will naturally be living longer versus Snake than Jigglypuff will be.

these features are not as important in my opinion.

Yep to both of these things.

Otherwise, with all this in mind it makes sense to me why Kirby vs Snake might be a -1 for Kirby. Its hard to get in on snake (harder for jiggs), but once Kirby gets in he can punish harder than jiggs and keep a strong advantage.

I agree with it being a -1 for Kirby, and I'm happy to say that the MU is worse for Jigglypuff (I don't necessarily agree, but I don't really care either lol). My contention is that the MU is apparently UNWINNABLE for Jigglypuff; do the points listed above really justify such a massive difference between two very similar MUs? No.

Marth is a similar story; Kirby doesn't have access to some holy grail that Jigglypuff doesn't that will solve the MU for him. He just has a few slightly better general traits and tools (better fast-fall, better smashes, etc...), and different situational tools (Kirby's tilts and superior options OoS). These things do not 'make or break' a MU... perhaps if it was -2 for Kirby, but certainly not for a -1. And Puff has her own tools which make up for the lack of the ones I mentioned; Pound, nair, better air speed and Rest.

 

[Alphicans]

Lol @ assuming key traits do not "make" the match-up. You cannot make such a claim without backing it up.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Backing up my claims:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mw-rZA4saco

What did falln do here that Jigglypuff couldn't?
What advantage did he gain from his tilts, ground-game, air juggles and grab combos that are beyond Puff's access?

 

[Ghostbone]

He bair'd a lot
Jiggs doesn't have Kirby's bair
GG unwinnable matchups for jiggs.

/I don't think people realise that since Kirby's bair is his only good move and will get staled 10x, Jiggs might not have a move as good as Kirby's bair, but she has multiple moves that do similar things so they don't get staled ridiculously, plus she can set up kills with rest while kirby has to die to get a fresh bair, or fish for f-smash.

Bair doesn't solve Kirby's problems, it makes them look less bad but then you realise he's always at a disadvantage because he's trying to use one move for everything and it just gets pitifully weak.

 

[Ishiey]

Kirby's bair hits frame 6 and has 9 frames of landing lag, Puff is 8/15 on bair/fair/uair and 6/15 on nair, according to the frame data thread I found through the directory. That's a HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE difference, most notably in landing lag (hello ftilt for 1/4th of your stock), and bair speed matters a bunch too when Puff also has a worse FF so she can't get down to punish Snake when something stupid happens as she's camping.

Seriously though, Puff's aerials are pretty lackluster.


On imageshack being weird and the chart not showing: lame. I'll upload the chart elsewhere tomorrow and see if that works, until then you can still go to the direct link :/

 

[FredFuchs]

i clicked on the link hoping it was going to be a chudat esque kirby. instead, it was like watching anti vs 9b except with more camping. at least it felt like it.
edit: for ****s and giggles, here's a jiggs v snake vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMpu9Ip5ajo

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Kirby's bair hits frame 6 and has 9 frames of landing lag, Puff is 8/15 on bair/fair/uair and 6/15 on nair, according to the frame data thread I found through the directory. That's a HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE difference, most notably in landing lag (hello ftilt for 1/4th of your stock), and bair speed matters a bunch too when Puff also has a worse FF so she can't get down to punish Snake when something stupid happens as she's camping.

Seriously though, Puff's aerials are pretty lackluster.

Puff's bair is unpunishable if the aerial hits them or hits their shield tho, if you land or otherwise. Her aerial mobility and the threat Pound has on positioning also make the bairs less likely to whiff, Goodbye ftilt for 1/4th of your stock (also learn to SDI lol, that'd be the most telegraphed punish).

edit: for ****s and giggles, here's a jiggs v snake vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMpu9Ip5ajo

This puff sucks lol

 

[Alphicans]

Excuse me, what threat does pound have? Power shield to utilt says hello, and that's not unreasonable to do like most of the time.

Also if it's not spaced well, then non-power shield to lots of things will start working. Holding nade is also going to shut that down pretty hard too. Pound is a pretty bad move overall.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

It's a punish, not an approach.
Holding nade limits snake and doesn't protect from bair

Good job skirting everything else I said and attacking one thing btw

 

[Alphicans]

Well you described the same thing for kirby... The only difference is kirby's bair is way better, meaning the match-up is better for him.