Official SWF Matchup Chart v3.0

[Rizen]

It's a matter of play-style preferences. Wolf has a fast falling speed but good air movement and decent recovery distance. He's probably hard to use if you're good with floaty characters.
I'm bad with floaties. They play weird to me. *shrug*

 

[Anonano]

Nah. Prolly gonna be last tierlist/MU chart for Brawl since Smash 4 is around the corner.

I'd love to agree with this buuuuuuut delays. We'll see how it goes though

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Seems like a lot of time to do something other characters can do without really thinking.

*****, please. I love Brawl but it's easy for 90% of the characters in this game to recover easily against almost every character. Recovery in Brawl is freakin' easy. Save your second jump and you can usually get back taking only incidental damage. I don't know why everyone pretends that everyone is getting ****ing gimped in this game left and right, it almost never happens and if it did the offstage player made an enormous mistake.

 

[SoulPech]

complaining about recovery? guess those guys have never got into depth w/ Melee.

 

[Espy Rose]

I don't know why everyone pretends that everyone is getting ****ing gimped in this game left and right

Probably because most players have to recover against a Meta Knight.

 

[Sar]

Does anyone know of any good videos of Ike vs ICs? That ratio has me intrigued.

 

[Luco]

Probably because most players have to recover against a Meta Knight.

Even then it's less of a deal than everyone makes it out to be. =/

 

[Neon!]

peach's matchups are still fairly inaccurate but im satisfed with DK's.

 

[Dekillsage]

Even then it's less of a deal than everyone makes it out to be. =/

shuttle loop

 

[Espy Rose]

dair

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Jigglypuff

 

[NickRiddle]

Gooby pls.

 

[-LzR-]

shuttle loop

This soooo much arargsdgs sdfsd >: (

 

[Luco]

shuttle loop

Aerial or grounded?

Cause aerial shuttle looping against a char trying to recover.... Air dodge?

 

[Rizen]

Aerial or grounded?

Cause aerial shuttle looping against a char trying to recover.... Air dodge?

Yeah but MK has multiple jumps, a long transcendent priority sword with huge 180 swings and the best recovery in the game. vs most characters a well timed air dodge can save you but MK can attack again and again

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Double mid air shuttle loop? Ban MK

 

[Rizen]

Is shuttle loop transcendent?
I meant he can Fair/Dair and repeat then shuttle loop once.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Is shuttle loop transcendent?
I meant he can Fair/Dair and repeat then shuttle loop once.

No. You can check if a move is transcendent based on its reaction to 's shine. Shine beats shuttle loop everytime. It's just risky because you press down b so you have the chance of being sent diagonally down if you miss lool.

 

[Dekillsage]

Double mid air shuttle loop? Ban MK

This exists on smashville lol

 

[Rizen]

This exists on smashville lol

Can you link a video?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Ground Shuttle Loop is "SpecialHi" animation with three separate hitbox durations.

The first one "on the ground" is transcendent.
The second phase of hitboxes is during the ascent which is also transcendent.
The final hitbox at the height of the shuttle loop with the little loop at the end is also transcendent.

The aerial shuttle loop is split into multiple animations. The first is start-up which is "SpecialAirHiStart". The 2nd part contains the actual hitboxes which is "SpecialAirHiLoop". This two is split into two distinct hitboxes. The ascent has a hitbox which is transcendent and the little loop hitbox at the end is transcendent as well.

tl;dr Grounded and Aerial Shuttle Loop contain completely transcendent hitboxes.

I am not sure what you mean by that SeagullJoe. Reflector is just intangible frames during the start-up and active hitboxes are transcendent as well for Wolf's reflector. So, Wolf is winning purely by virtue of being intangible and both reflector doesn't interact with hitboxes. Then again, this is all from data farming lol and not actually testing with frame advance.

 

[Lukingordex]

I'm curious about the Pokemon Trainer vs DK MU,can anyone explain it to me?


Edit:

Lucas vs Samus being even lol,explain plz

 

[Dekillsage]

Can you link a video?

You ever see a MK shuttle loop and then cancel it on the moving platform into another shuttle loop? Watch Otori vs 9b from apex and you'll see him do it a lot on battlefield

 

[DeLux]

No. You can check if a move is transcendent based on its reaction to 's shine. Shine beats shuttle loop everytime. It's just risky because you press down b so you have the chance of being sent diagonally down if you miss lool.

Input Shine using Special + Cstick down while holding up on analog stick

 

[Rizen]

^ @ conversation. Oh so it's canceled with platforms but not technically 2 midair loops without something refreshing them. That makes sense.

MK's air loop doesn't have invulnerability and ground does is the difference? Both are transcendent. Okay.
I want to say only MK's glide attack lacks transcendence of his normal sword attacks.

 

[1PokeMastr]

If it was transcendant, glide attack would worse, in my opinion, it'd trade with everything.

Just like nado if it were transcendant, trade with everything.

And Seagull, I'd expect you to know that Shuttle Loop is transcendant.
If I've seen it used to hit Mk's out of nado a billion times, you probably have too.

AND WHY DOES NO ONE DI ON REACTION.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

And Seagull, I'd expect you to know that Shuttle Loop is transcendant.
If I've seen it used to hit Mk's out of nado a billion times, you probably have too.

Grounded shuttle loop beats Tornado because it has 3 frames of invincibility at the startup.
Aerial shuttle loop very rarely beats a Tornado though - that's why you often see MKs recovering with Tornado in the ditto. Only in a few instances it's possible for the shuttle loop's transcendent priority to make a difference and trade with the Tornado.

 

[Shaya]

Shuttle Loop can only beat tornado in the air vertically, horizontally it will always lose, sometimes trade.

 

[Luco]

Yeah but MK has multiple jumps, a long transcendent priority sword with huge 180 swings and the best recovery in the game. vs most characters a well timed air dodge can save you but MK can attack again and again

If he's using shuttle loop, one of his better moves to keep you out and/or KO you, AD suddenly puts him in a position where his options are limited. Glide attack gives him more options but even then, MK's not quite as mobile as Wario aerially and you're usually fine if you're taking defensive measures.

Frankly I think an MK staying grounded when you're trying to recover is the scarier situation. Most MKs get very little risk from going out to gimp you though, which is why I find the aerial approach is more common. In that case, if you're smart with recovery, you can usually get past them in some way. If they ARE staying grounded, that's when i'd be looking at real safe options. If you're not at risk, you could go for the ledge and go from there. If you have a move like Falco's phantasm, you could time it to give yourself less ending lag so that you're less punishable. It's harder this way but most characters have something, something that can be used to recover. And even if you have trouble with it or mess up the first time, from onstage all MK's really gonna do is send you back out there. Yeah you take more damage but a stock? That takes work, even for MK. SFP is actually quite right IMO - getting back in this game is actually ok.

 

[Rizen]

If he's using shuttle loop, one of his better moves to keep you out and/or KO you, AD suddenly puts him in a position where his options are limited. Glide attack gives him more options but even then, MK's not quite as mobile as Wario aerially and you're usually fine if you're taking defensive measures.

That's true but MK won't only use shuttle loop when he can go offstage> Dair>Dair>jump>Dair>Dair>jump>Dair>shuttle loop which you can't air dodge through.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You guys need to learn real MK options.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

You guys need to learn real MK options.

What they should really do is learn to play Puff so they don't have to worry about being gimped by MK as badly

 

[Rizen]

What they should really do is learn to play Puff so they don't have to worry about being gimped by MK as badly

Then they'll CP Ganon and Dair gimp Jiggz at any %

 

[Grim Tuesday]

MK is the only character that can edge-guard Puff.

 

[Ishiey]

Why can't a character such as Marth successfully edge-guard Jigglypuff?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Why could he? She has six jumps, an aerial stall and amazing offensive option coupled into one move, the second best air speed in the game and the slowest fall speed (a positive, when combined with her ability to strafe... would be bad if she couldn't move horizontally, or jump lol). As long as she's patient, she can always at least get the ledge. As long as she's patient while on the ledge, she can always get back the stage.

 

[Rizen]

My attitude is every character can be edgeguarded but it's very hard vs some. I've seen Zelda Dair spike a MK. I think that was Mocha?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Well yeah anything that's within the physics of the game can be done

I'm using 'can' and 'can't' in the practicality sense, not the possible/impossible sense lol

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Marth vs Wario is probably just +1, not +2. If the Wario uses uair as perfectly as Glutonny does, that is. I don't see anybody except him doing it though so I'm not surprised that a lot of people think it's +2.

 

[Ghostbone]

I honestly think Marth vs Wario is even after watching gluttony play the matchup.

But Marth mains think they beat everyone they outrange, so it's whatever.