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Official SWF Matchup Chart v3.0

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DeLux

Player that used to be Lux
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True, but the problem is that I as a newbie player will not always know what are good questions to ask? Some things I learn are simply randomly found by reading the discussions of other rather than my own questions asked. Especially simple insights and smash philosophy about how I as a player might actually be approaching the game incorrectly.

Asking my professor about the Great Wall of China with some questions does not always give you the same information as simply reading an article about the Great Wall of China. Your questions are more direct and specialized compared to the article which gives you information about stuff you wouldn't have thought to ask about. If anything, I won't have good questions until after I read the article.
If a newbie player needs a guide on questions to ask regarding a MU, I'll give a template:

I'm debating picking up (insert character here) to use against (insert opponent's character here). I notice the MU Ratio is listed as (insert MU ratio here).

What makes the MU play out as (insert MU ratio here)?
Are there high level videos of the MU played that I can view?
Does anyone disagree with the listed MU ratio and why?
Which players have a large amount of experience in the MU that I can ask more detailed questions as I try to figure out the MU through my own future experiences?
The point of the MU chart isn't to teach someone how to play a MU. The point is to facilitate discussion and help players narrow down exactly where they need to go/what they need to know in order to learn the MU on their own.
 
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Well thats more due to the fact that Brawl is starting to die. Back when this game was bigger, the character boards where hella active. Once Smash 4 comes out, itll be better.
I've been active on the boards since Aug 08' (older accounts I dropped), and even then certain characters boards lacked the sort of go to sources. I recall a number of match-up efforts throughout the years and they always, always seemed to dissolve into trying to put labels and number on a match-up over the really important stuff (how to play the match-up). And again, I never knew who was actually saying something useful or not. To be honest, character board organization is unpredictable and I bet it is too in the BBR, but it seems more reliable given the resource of better players.
If a newbie player needs a guide on questions to ask regarding a MU, I'll give a template:

The point of the MU chart isn't to teach someone how to play a MU. The point is to facilitate discussion and help players narrow down exactly where they need to go/what they need to know in order to learn the MU on their own.
Yes, and it wouldn't it be such a great boon to already have a nice template provided for you without having the dozens of so newbie players to keep asking the same person or couple of people the same thing?

I suppose I have ranted on this long enough. I just think it would be a great resource for people to have those templates already provided to supplement this match-up chart and anything more specific new players and old ones can ask when they need too.
 

DeLux

Player that used to be Lux
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Yes, and it wouldn't it be such a great boon to already have a nice template provided for you without having the dozens of so newbie players to keep asking the same person or couple of people the same thing?


I suppose I have ranted on this long enough. I just think it would be a great resource for people to have those templates already provided to supplement this match-up chart and anything more specific new players and old ones can ask when they need too
It wouldn't. In terms of networking, it's a lot more powerful for a player to ask another player to get personal feedback based on the specialization you're asking for, especially considering the emotional investment a player will make in trying to help another player.

If you think of degrees of communication break down, let's say we did prewrite MU descriptors like you're suggesting.

You'd have to go from-
Player A's experience and knowledge in the MU > Player A's ability to express and communicate their thoughts > Player B finding the write up > Player B reading and interpreting the writeup > Player B applying the info

There's bound to be translation errors somewhere along the way, so it's more handy for someone to have a personal connection (whether it's via the character subforum or some other means) in order to clear up issues that come when Player B tries to figure out things on his own.

If we just give them a pre-cookie cutter write up, people are less likely to try to really understand the reality of the MU, and will just take the BBR cookie cutter write up as the end all be all
 

Ishiey

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It's sadly not as simple or realistic to produce these summaries as you make it sound, Eryx.

Someone has to be willing to do the write-up. The other side has to agree that the write-up is accurate. But we already have issues with people barely even participating in their panels, and agreements aren't super common in the project as a whole. I'm pretty sure over a third of the MUs brought up for discussion ended up going to the third panel because they couldn't reach a consensus.

Even with the last chart (v2), we only had a handful of write-ups, the vast majority of which were the work of one person in the panel really pushing to get it done and barely any feedback from the rest of their panel / the opposing panel. It just doesn't work like we would all like to imagine in our heads.

I was initially planning to do something MASSIVE with write-ups, but it's unrealistic and not worth it for a game that's this late in its lifespan. Running the project in its current form is a lot of work already... at a point things just don't make sense to attempt. So basically what DeLux is saying; it's better to post a question template and get individual than for a small group to make ~700 summaries with all sorts of possibly-useful things lost in translation and negotiation.

Why not make the MU discussion forum visible to the public but remove posting rights?
I'm considering it. Issue is people potentially getting flamed over disagreements, and I'm sure most panelists are more than ready to put this project behind them :p I don't think doing such a thing was brought up at the start either, so some people might want their posts removed. We'll see.

:059:
 

Luco

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I'd personally like to see what players better than myself have to say on the matter. So, if it's being considered, my support is behind the unveiling of those discussions. Total respect though to those who would prefer the past left behind, i'm just interested in MU specifics! ^_^

I don't see why lower level players such as yourself care. The MUC was made to help everyone no matter how accurate. Especially those less intelligent in the subject of smash. Why are you arguing when you never spent a SECOND to take the time out of your day to help the progression of the MUC, it's beyond pointless. Anyone who disagrees with this gtfo.
This is soooo ignorant though. Who's to say I don't care? How would you know? What if I did apply for the panel? What if I spend countless painful hours learning about the game so I can try to be the best I can be? What then? Do all my hours go to waste? Am I discarded as trash because the next person put in a few more hours by the virtue of the fact that they started competitive smash a year or two before I did? And what if I have put effort into MUs, the ones I got rebuked for, the ones where my opinion was gladly taken in?

The reason I care is because I believe that anyone serious enough to actually spend their hobby progressing on a video game such as this one should be allowed their input. I care because there are actually people out there who want to be better and are actually enthusiastic and i'm honoured to know some of those people. I care because I don't think those people should be left out. I care because said people get left out of discussions because they're not top level when in fact they may have the know-how to give valuable input.

A second? No... It's much more than a second. Even if we're wrong, we deserve the right to discuss it with those around us to determine why it's wrong. When top players don't volunteer for a panel because they don't like the status of those in it, does it not further the problem? Those people should be the ones going in there and helping the younger players to have a voice, they should be the ones correcting those statements, not complaining about it afterwards that inexperienced players were allowed to make inaccurate MU ratings.

If you care, you should go for it. We certainly do, so it pains me when someone with the experience to go on top of everything discards us because we're 'too much trouble'.


I'm sorry. The reason I rant is because i'm a bit hurt. I do care. I actually give a heck about this game, so why can't it be recognised? It's just so unfair.

Yeah. I'm sorry. I respect you all... i'm just... annoyed. *sigh*
 

-LzR-

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Go home, BBR. You're drunk.

(Pathetic and stupid MU chart on so many levels. Brawl is a dying game so I really don't care anymore).

It's awesome how whenever you disagree with something you just john how you don't care but you still keep whining and making insults everywhere. You never cease to amaze me.
 

Rizen

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I skipped most of the last 2 pages but I have to point this out:

Sorry if I seemed harsh before, I just got back from namesearching into the Link thread, where apparently "the best Link LordXav1er" (aka not Kirinblaze) thinks KNOWS that ICs vs Link is even, or close to it.
But on a more serious note I wish I had played you Vinnie at XSmash there is no way in hell Link is -4 vs IC sorry Falco MK and D3 are much better vs Link and am not afraid to prove it.

IC vs Link at worst is -2
Edit: Kirinblaze (the best Link in the world) is in my region. Although I haven't really done the MU much with him, I could say that Link is ****ing *** and every time I've seen him win, he outplayed the **** out of them. ICs vs Link sounds terrible and Link would have to SOMEHOW outcamp a 0-death grab with the 2nd worst character in the game. Good luck. lol
Isn't Kirin retired? Was that like friendlies 3 years ago? When was Link the 2nd worst character? When did Link players say ICs vs Link is even? :facepalm:
 

mikeray4

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For the record I fought for Snake only to be -1 vs pika. Esam + MVD just fought harder and cared more.
 

Rizen

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Wait I thought Scabe was the best link? Is there some joke here I dunno about? Owell. @.@
Scabe's the best Australian Link. Best current Links that come to mind are Scizor and X but that's based off assumptions that several Links like Deva, Kirinblaze and Legan retired or use other characters currently. Mr.R was a great Link. ALSM is up there. TBH I don't know what happened to a lot of Link players.
 

RaptorTEC

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Why not make the MU discussion forum visible to the public but remove posting rights?
They're not gonna do this cause they don't want the public to see how fraudulent it is that some changes happened after there was no argument. Luckily I have screenshots to try and get stuff switched back when the time comes.

Edit: @Grim Tuesday No you are not the best Jigglypuff. You are the self proclaimed best Jigglypuff. :p
 

Rizen

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If the public could see the MU discussions we'd lose our mystique. Like telling kids the Santa at the mall is really a fat guy in a fake beard getting minimum wage.
 

infiniteV115

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I, for one, would love it if the public was allowed to view the ZSS vs Link discussion. I think only 1 person in that discussion has to worry about losing their 'mystique'
 

fkacyan

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If the backroom was visible for all to see nobody in it would get as much respect for the purple tag as they do now.
 

Rizen

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I, for one, would love it if the public was allowed to view the ZSS vs Link discussion. I think only 1 person in that discussion has to worry about losing their 'mystique'
Which? One of the people who hasn't played it, one who posted once the entire project, one of the people who got in a debate about Toon Link's Zair or Marth's Fair, one who thought it was as bad as Link vs Falco...

I can already hear the crowd chanting "Jerry! Jerry!" :urg:
 

Marc

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We're not going to make discussions public because it's poor form to have people post in a supposedly private room, then release it all anyway. People on the project are allowed to paste their own posts here, but we're not doing topic dumps (which would be a ****ton to go through in the first place). I'm not shying away from the notion that quite a few discussions went nowhere or were of poor quality, but releasing them so people can cherry pick what they don't like and target individual people is not the answer. Visibility of the SBR in general is something to consider for whatever it is we put in place for Smash 4, but that's not relevant to this discussion.

As for the chart, it is what it is. This was a project where pretty much everyone had the opportunity to get in and put in work to make it good and we'll soon come up with a way to have ongoing updates that will happen in the public domain entirely. It all runs on volunteer work, so unless this community as a whole gets a strong work ethic going, there are limits to what can be accomplished. Also, with this number of matchups, it is virtually impossible for everyone to agree with all of it.
 

Grim Tuesday

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We're not going to make discussions public because it's poor form to have people post in a supposedly private room, then release it all anyway. People on the project are allowed to paste their own posts here, but we're not doing topic dumps (which would be a ****ton to go through in the first place). I'm not shying away from the notion that quite a few discussions went nowhere or were of poor quality, but releasing them so people can cherry pick what they don't like and target individual people is not the answer. Visibility of the SBR in general is something to consider for whatever it is we put in place for Smash 4, but that's not relevant to this discussion.

As for the chart, it is what it is. This was a project where pretty much everyone had the opportunity to get in and put in work to make it good and we'll soon come up with a way to have ongoing updates that will happen in the public domain entirely. It all runs on volunteer work, so unless this community as a whole gets a strong work ethic going, there are limits to what can be accomplished. Also, with this number of matchups, it is virtually impossible for everyone to agree with all of it.
If everyone in the BBR and the panelists could see it, it's hardly private - what could someone have said that they are happy to reveal to what is, essentially, just a smaller sample size of the population that isn't allowed to see it?
 

fkacyan

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I'm not shying away from the notion that quite a few discussions went nowhere or were of poor quality, but releasing them so people can cherry pick what they don't like and target individual people is not the answer. Visibility of the SBR in general is something to consider for whatever it is we put in place for Smash 4, but that's not relevant to this discussion.
Take the names out if you're THAT concerned about people getting hanged for their unfounded, idiotic opinions, but it's pretty obvious by a lot of the discussion in the BBR that it's supersaturated and a lot of people just shouldn't be there.
 

Seagull Joe

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From the perspective of someone who is one of the best of his character (I don't consider myself a top player, but probably a high level one), I have no problem explaining the :wolf: matchups. As someone who has played the same character for 5 years and learned a lot overtime, it isn't hard for me to describe each of :wolf:'s matchups in details. I could see how people perceive him from the low level to high level spectrum. Most of the ways I've characterized :wolf:'s matchups have not been just from my gameplay, but also many others. In fact, the only changes I would make to the current :wolf: chart would be :popo: to -1 and :ganondorf: to +3. This change I would make is based on experience and observations.

I do not know why Vinnie or Nakat listed :wolf: as +2 loool. Given Kain's results alone the matchup would be even. I also have a super positive record on DeLux and have beaten Lain's/Hylian's :popo:. My only losses to :popo: have been to Nakat who generally wins from timing me out by not approaching loool. Our matches are always super close. Don't see how that could scale the match to an outright counter when I've barely lost each time.

Vinnie's :wolf: experience is from Pane -.-...

:018:
 

DeLux

Player that used to be Lux
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Saying Kain's record makes it even is an understatement. He's like a billion wins against 2 losses

I think in tournament/MM's my record is like:

0-1 with Choice (MM)
0-3 with Holmes
.5-2 with Seagull (won one game of the two for the set against wolf)
1- 3 or 4 against Kain I forget

0-1 with random Con wolf where I wasn't allowed to use any custom controls (I use A-Jump Y-Grab X- Attack Z-Jump R-Attack) and we randomed rumble falls and onett


-4 imo :p :p :p
 

Seagull Joe

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Oh and Esam has lost to McPP with :popo:...

I would have more incentive to agree with Nakat and Vinnie if any theory or results indicated :popo: wins +2, but neither results/theory back up their claims. Results and theory indicate the matchup as even more then anything, but I think it's -1 because it's like :falco: vs :wolf: at low percents. :wolf: should platform camp till above like 20-30% where Dthrow won't auto cg into itself (Tho the Dthrow cg doesn't start till around 10% cause it's weird) and lead to death (Same problem :wolf: has vs :falco: because of cg to spike).

The difference is that :falco: and :wolf: is based on priority and out-thinking one another at different ranges. :wolf: spaces around :popo:'s stuff and wins everywhere except close up.

:018:
 

DeLux

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It also doesn't help that Wolf flies through the air, has no lag, teleports through the stage, and gives out the honey face in space like it's his job.

His laser also has a sword on it, so the "swords and items minus Link" Rule of going even or better with ICs applies.
 

Espy Rose

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Though the match up itself doesn't happen too frequently, Sonic has beaten ICs at the higher levels of play consistently.

It's a +3 on their chart.

I don't even want to understand their reasoning. That mess is practically an even match up. :applejack:
 

Shaya

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ICs: we single cg wolf to 250%, +4 mu
Wolf: we have quite literally close to 0 reasons nor forced means for us to ever be in your grab range, -1 at worst
ICs: but the single cg though
Wolf: what does ics have that wolf doesn't beat with an auto cancelled shine?
Ics: but the single cg though

Zelda syndrome accusations all day, but I've never seen anything solid from ICs that Wolf doesn't have answers to.
 

Sinister Slush

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4 days later and I see the terror is over.
Time to lurk.

Take the names out if you're THAT concerned about people getting hanged for their unfounded, idiotic opinions, but it's pretty obvious by a lot of the discussion in the BBR that it's supersaturated and a lot of people just shouldn't be there.
It's not as simple as making a single code for the forum so people can't see names in one specific sub-forum. That and it's probably not possible.

Also, people got in the BBR for a reason. Just overtime they slowly stopped caring about the game or just quit in general. That's why there's usually sweeps to get rid of inactive members. But the old rule of "Everything has a loophole" people who don't play brawl or even post much anymore can make a couple of Wall of texts in some BBR threads and still be considered active even though they haven't contributed in almost a year and only started once the next clean up was announced.
 

fkacyan

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Also, people got in the BBR for a reason.
And a lot of those reasons are hilariously bad.

I wish I was able to show you the back room so you knew what I was referring to.
 
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