Official SWF Matchup Chart v2.0

[Tesh]

How good a character is overall or in a specific matchup is all about risk/reward and the likelihood to come out on top in common situations.

Some characters have power (ganondorf), some characters have the ability to set things up and land their moves (like sonic to an extent) and some have both. You can't really just compare Ganon to GnW that way.

You obviously have to consider player vs player because these matchups will always be played out...by players. When discussing a matchup or tier list position its impossible to calculate how things look when no one reads or makes mistakes.

 

[-LzR-]

I think this where risk vs reward belongs to. Ganon can't do **** without making heavy risks while MK can manage to wreck him without risking himself at all. He can still read so what but he can't do ****. Damn what a pointless discussion.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Nah, Jebus raises a good point.

I mean, if we are willing to accept the player aspect instead of just saying "ICs will perfect shield > 0 to death everything", why don't we consider things like... MK/Puff being -2 because that is how bad it is if the MK doesn't know the MU (which is the case, 99% of the time)?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyUdoohXrMg ZSS/Snake +2

Bizkit would have won if that tourney used his fantastic ruleset.

 

[infiniteV115]

If Salem can JV 2-stock Bizkit on FD then I doubt he would have lost with Bizkit's ruleset

 

[Desu~]

Do you guys think that reads and mindgames should be taken into consideration when creating a MU?

How can you considerate that when it's clearly something that can't be measured?
I understand that the way a player plays his character will have an effect on the matchups, but at this point, the matchups are entirely based on what advantages a character has against another character, hell i would even say depending on the speed of one character's executions. Naturally, Ganon would never be able to beat MK because he's just too fast.

So what i'm saying is i think it's okay to try and manage to slightly change the odds of a matchups with reads and mindgames. I also think that way. However, i would think that the current MU chart only shows what an average character's advantages and/or disadvantages against other characters.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

If Salem can JV 2-stock Bizkit on FD then I doubt he would have lost with Bizkit's ruleset

None of you guys would get the joke

 

[Ayce God]

why do you guys have pikachu even with marth? and why is marth a counter for snake and falco? *sits down and tries to figure this out*

 

[Player-1]

None of you guys would get the joke

I'll enlighten them:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Z9CyEvg_BQ

 

[Ussi]

why do you guys have pikachu even with marth? and why is marth a counter for snake and falco? *sits down and tries to figure this out*

Shaya's forces lost to ESAM

 

[Ayce God]

ramin almost three stocked esam, it's painfully obvious it's hard for pikachu to get in on marth and stay in. it should def be -1 for pika pika

 

[TheReflexWonder]

ramin almost three stocked esam, it's painfully obvious it's hard for pikachu to get in on marth and stay in. it should def be -1 for pika pika

When did that happen?

 

[NickRiddle]

ramin almost three stocked esam, it's painfully obvious it's hard for pikachu to get in on marth and stay in. it should def be -1 for pika pika

Then ESAM won the MM...

 

[Tesh]

As much as people attack ESAM for overrating pikachu's matchups, he has proof and none of you do except lame theorycraft. None of you forum people convinced him MK beats pikachu, it took losing to good MKs for him to admit that.

If top level Pikachu beats top level Marth, then that is simply how the matchup goes.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

As much as people attack ESAM for overrating pikachu's matchups, he has proof and none of you do except lame theorycraft. None of you forum people convinced him MK beats pikachu, it took losing to good MKs for him to admit that.

If top level Pikachu beats top level Marth, then that is simply how the matchup goes.

Then top-level PT beats top-level a lot of characters...?

On a more serious note, top-level Ivysaur beats top-level Donkey Kong. Hopefully Will would co-sign this.

 

[Ayce God]

When did that happen?

a mm at sktar.

Then ESAM won the MM...

but I think that's bc esam is a better player than ramin an also due to the fact ramin obliviously didn't know how to di thunder. which was the only way esam was a able to win was exploiting that.

As much as people attack ESAM for overrating pikachu's matchups, he has proof and none of you do except lame theorycraft. None of you forum people convinced him MK beats pikachu, it took losing to good MKs for him to admit that.

If top level Pikachu beats top level Marth, then that is simply how the matchup goes.

you have a rep for trolling, henceforth I can't take anything you say seriously. bc what u just said was pretty silly.

 

[Tesh]

Then top-level PT beats top-level a lot of characters...?

On a more serious note, top-level Ivysaur beats top-level Donkey Kong. Hopefully Will would co-sign this.

Yes? I've always felt PT beats Peach (used to be my secondary and the only way I could beat Peaches when Sonic didn't work). You beat Illmatic twice.

If people are still unable to beat you consistently after all this time AT HIGH LEVEL then PT probably wins the matchup or goes even at least. So obviously I'm not saying dominance in your region means PT beats diddy, zss, ics, falco, but if you were to travel around and beat DEHF, Shugo, Nick Riddle, Salem, Vinnie, ESAM, Gnes, ADHD then I think it makes a strong case for PT winning those matchups in reality.

Its alot more silly to believe something just because it looks good on paper.

 

[Player-1]

Reflex's PT doesn't beat me it suks and is washed up, my PT is probably better tbh
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3OkpfDGTQc&feature=player_detailpage#t=372s
*baits him into using PT against me next tournament*

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Yes? I've always felt PT beats Peach (used to be my secondary and the only way I could beat Peaches when Sonic didn't work). You beat Illmatic twice.

Also 3-0'd Excel_Zero in a money match about a month ago. :3

 

[Player-1]

reflex is too scared to $200 MM me with solo ivysaur

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth vs pika is not even. Never was never will be. Idk bout Marth countering snake either.

 

[Tesh]

Marth vs pika is not even. Never was never will be. Idk bout Marth countering snake either.

well yea pikachu probably wins it

 

[Emblem Lord]

No. He doesn't. U can tell that just by lookin at them. Wut tools does pika have that negate Marths game? How does pika as a char invalidate Marth. This is how you determine who wins and who loses.

People lettin one char wonders decide match ratios has always been smash communities problem. Look at the tools. That's all.

 

[Ishiey]

Pika waits for Marth to jump, and then runs under him. Just like half of the cast. GG

But then Marth players learn not to jump around like idiots, and all of his MUs become "good" again.

I'm almost serious.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I'm being serious. Pika does not control Marth. Nor does pika limit Marths game. Marth wins this match. Marth controls more space, limits pikas options and forces pika to either take a risk or guess with a read. This is not the definition of an even match.

Put that in Marths advantage. Doesn't matter if esam trashes every Marth on the planet. If he is doing it by jus being good but winning exactly as I described he is in fact proving my point.

Also I always felt Marth and snake go even. That's jus me though. That match is debatable unlike pika vs Marth

 

[Neon!]

Changes that should be made for DK

IC -3
Sheik -1
GW 0

 

[da K.I.D.]

Marth vs pika is not even. Never was never will be. Idk bout Marth countering snake either.

Hello mysterious time traveling man!

What year are you from!?

Oh? 2009 you say...?

 

[Ayce God]

your making fun of him but youre not even explaining why u believe pika goes even and why snake doesn't.

sounds like some of you are just on the popular vote bandwagon

 

[da K.I.D.]

because its been explained already. you cant say marth doesnt beat snake after pretty much every good marth player has beaten allys snake. and just because esam is far better than everyone else playing his character doesnt mean that what he does should be disregarded. if esam has beaten EVERY SINGLE marth out there, then it has to mean that some how, on a base level pikachu as a character has the tools to deal with marth. if your character loses a matchup the best player of said character shouldnt be able to beat every last dude out there that plays that matchup that beats your character. at that point its not a losing matchup anymore if people arent actually losing the matchup.

 

[Delta-cod]

I guess Yoshi beats GnW then cuz I've beaten Vinnie's GnW on several occasions.

 

[Ayce God]

but if it's ONLY esam doing it then how does that prove anything? esam isn't using any secret tools to beat marth he's just straight up out playing them.

plus esam is a s+ player fighting beating s ranked people. there's no marth main on exams level ramin Leon and mike are all a notch below him.

yalls logic as to why it's even just doesn't make sense. and ally is notorious for being bad against marth.

 

[Tesh]

lol, Ally is "notorious for being bad against marth" because he used to main snake and the matchup is bad.

And maybe those Marth players are s+ and marth isn't as good as you think he is.

 

[Ayce God]

there not s+ I believe if ramin lived here he would be, I think Europe holds him back a little.

and marth Is a great character. better than pikachu is. pika marth still ain't even. I think esam if asked would say it could be -1. just from his game with ramin.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Its funny, because the people who DON'T think Marth destroys Pika probably think he DOES destroy Puff, even when it's a pretty similar case for both.

Marth sucks dawgs

 

[da K.I.D.]

I guess Yoshi beats GnW then cuz I've beaten Vinnie's GnW on several occasions.

1. that doesnt seem very farfetched to me.
2. if you had beaten vinnie and alphicans, and whoever else high level gaws there are, you would have a pretty good leg to stand on with this statement.

A lot of you guys are just having the same mindset of the people that thought sonic was bottom tier back in the day, and every time the character did something amazing, people would brush it off like 'oh that guys just like... the best player ever, sonic is still bottom tier, but hes just really good'

eventually you just have to admit that pikachu is top tier and marth might not be as good as you all thought.

lastly. lol at the statements 'Marth beats pikachu because Mr R 3 stocked Esam'
and
'Esam only beat Mr R because Mr R is not the same level of player that esam is'
comign sequentially from teh same dude.

 

[Ayce God]

he didn't three stock him, and this is pointless. I guess whenever esam loses to a marth and the bandwagon switches magically everything were saying will make sense. smh.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

lol, Ally is "notorious for being bad against marth" because he used to main snake and the matchup is bad.

The match-up is even.

 

[clowsui]

Do I have to summon the power AGAIN?

Dr. Peepee

explain why Marth results don't match up with the character

(hint:

it has to do with the players

not the character)

 

[Luco]

I've thought about the logic and... i kinda have to agree with it. If you are a person who plays a LOT of a certain character, including the best players of that character and you're winning... mindset does come in to brawl but it can only be implemented with the tools that character has. Obviously if there are no tools to do so you can't be mindgamey. Every character has tools, however good or bad they might be. Even if you are amazing with your mindgame, if you use those tools to beat someone, it just means that somebody else can as well.

Then the other player adapts to that mindgame and you are left with the bare tools for a game or two. I assume that players such as ESAM have run in to this problem but if they keep winning, does this mean there ARE indeed tools to use to beating that character? I'm not being rhetorical here, i'm actually not sure. Is this how mindgame truly works and why our meta game is probably far from being fully developed? Is it really mindgame that controls meta game?

I kinda started this post with a point to make but as I went on I kinda tripped over myself and ended up asking questions, haha. *scratches head*

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Everything is punishable by every character from neutral if it is predicted (mostly due to perfect shields); so being the smarter player can completely dominate your character "not having options" in the match-up.