Official SWF Matchup Chart v2.0

[| Big D |]

Like this

 

[PMC66]

Wario v wolf should be -1 i'm sorry anyone who says other wise is living in 2009.

+1 for wario iirc

 

[Lukingordex]

Wario's CG is too good.

 

[PMC66]

it's also nearly impractical in the mu and there are no legitimate set ups for it. this MU would be trash for wolf if oh i don't know he didn't have a good keep out game and blaster being a decent tool to harrass wario.

-2 my ***, chain grab even when the wario knows it barely makes a difference if this matchup is so bad how come Reflex and Hunger have lost to Kain in tournament? both knew the mu perfectly as did Kain, yet Kain went roughly even with both said Wario's at points in their careers hunger is less active but Reflex vs kain was recentish.

-1, i'm sorry but chain grab doesn't help that much, and wolf mains for a long time have proven he can hold his own in this MU,

it's also quite weird how the chain grab works but basically if you can mash quickly it shoudln't work lower than about 57% and considering N-air and D-air follow throughs are Wario's main combo starters even then in every scenario they will not give him the grab if the wolf DIs correctly.

That and theres getting the grab heck getting inside wolf, and getting inside wolf is surprisingly hard for Wario to do at times

Oh and change Falco to 0 the stuff wolf does to that Turkey off stage is just as disgusting as what falco can do to wolf on stage lol

i disagree with Diddy and snake as -1s but i'm not going to argue with them, people willl hopefully see the light some day ._.

 

[Ishiey]

Possibly. I think it's around the same difficulty as MK, if not a little easier for Wolf, but then again that might just be me sucking vs MK and not sucking vs Wario :x the +/-2 as it stands isn't really extreme though, most people think it's somewhere in between. (@ Wario, Snake could be even imo but he still has a slight edge, and Diddy is a **** lol)

And plus, if we went to a better ratio people that don't know anything about Wolf would complain about how he goes almost even with people that "infinite CG" and "gimp" him for no reason

 

[PMC66]

^ they should still be correctly educated however.

gah everyone is so backward to me sometimes. for gods sake speed it up people wario doesn't -2 wolf just stay in line with wario throw out blaster shots whilst in the air and space with b-air and it is not that hard.

 

[Chuee]

-2 my ***, chain grab even when the wario knows it barely makes a difference if this matchup is so bad how come Reflex and Hunger have lost to Kain in tournament? both knew the mu perfectly as did Kain, yet Kain went roughly even with both said Wario's at points in their careers hunger is less active but Reflex vs kain was recentish.

Reflex didn't use the CG on Kain if a recall correctly, and even if he did he messed up/or didn't use it too the highest percent it works.

 

[PMC66]

Reflex didn't use the CG on Kain if a recall correctly, and even if he did he messed up/or didn't use it too the highest percent it works.

he managed to use it twice in a set one where he tried to do it too early failed and staled the grab so it wouldn't work, and one where he did it to the 120s but didn't trust his execution. whilst he didn't infinite wolf he won those matches where he did grab wolf regardless, showing that wario has difficulty getting in on wolf alot of the time if he plays correctly if the majority of the match wario isn't in the situation to utilise his grab. honestly it helps a little, but only a little, even if you can do it, it's not that much harder for wolf to win tbh because wolf will just zone you out anyway. the reason wario wins is because he out lasts wolf and can kill him faster, alot of the time considering how the mu is played and the trajectory of alot of wario's attacks i can't see gimp game as polarising the mu that badly either.

ish you'd hate my region alot of diddy kongs lol.

 

[Ishiey]

Diddy is so ****ing fast, it's really irritating if there wasn't such a huge "cooldown" disparity (for lack of a better word) Wolf would definitely be even. Although tbh it could still be even, one should never doubt JJ Wolf.

+1 for Wario's survivability advantage over Wolf being an underrated pro.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

If Wario can use the CG consistently then it's easily +2 for him, if not +3.

 

[hunger!]

i choose not to cg kain.

/namesearch muhahahahhaa

 

[GOofyGV]

If Wario can use the CG consistently then it's easily +2 for him, if not +3.

yep and grabbing wolf is that easy to make it so bad >.>

it's not +3 all I say

 

[Lukingordex]

it's also nearly impractical in the mu and there are no legitimate set ups for it. this MU would be trash for wolf if oh i don't know he didn't have a good keep out game and blaster being a decent tool to harrass wario.

-2 my ***, chain grab even when the wario knows it barely makes a difference if this matchup is so bad how come Reflex and Hunger have lost to Kain in tournament? both knew the mu perfectly as did Kain, yet Kain went roughly even with both said Wario's at points in their careers hunger is less active but Reflex vs kain was recentish.

-1, i'm sorry but chain grab doesn't help that much, and wolf mains for a long time have proven he can hold his own in this MU,

it's also quite weird how the chain grab works but basically if you can mash quickly it shoudln't work lower than about 57% and considering N-air and D-air follow throughs are Wario's main combo starters even then in every scenario they will not give him the grab if the wolf DIs correctly.

That and theres getting the grab heck getting inside wolf, and getting inside wolf is surprisingly hard for Wario to do at times

Oh and change Falco to 0 the stuff wolf does to that Turkey off stage is just as disgusting as what falco can do to wolf on stage lol

i disagree with Diddy and snake as -1s but i'm not going to argue with them, people willl hopefully see the light some day ._.

Wolf is too good

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It's worth noting that I used all the wrong stages against Kain and lost to MCPe soon after for the same reason. I know better now, and I beat MCPe fairly handily now.

 

[The cake is a lie]

meow

Lots of sheep

 

[Iota]

Not sure if it's worth stating due to Kain possibly playing bad/semi-old set but Krystedez beat Kain with no chain grab a month after Kain beat Hunger. I would think that the set would've been a lot worse for Kain if Krys had used the CG.

 

[Laem]

Pretty sure Wario has dangerous setups into grab such as from nair or jab, or anything that pops wolf up a little.

 

[crifer]

Pretty sure Wario has dangerous setups into grab such as from nair or jab, or anything that pops wolf up a little.

dont forget bite. not sure if it works against wolf, though.

 

[Ishiey]

I think bite only leads into grab before CG %s, not sure though. Surprised that stages made such a big difference in the MU Reflex, what choices helped you out vs the Wolves?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Bite, the weak hit of nair, jab, the weak hits of dair and possibly even low % uair might not have a guaranteed grab follow-up but they all put Wolf into RPS positions where Wario can get a grab by correctly predicting the Wolf player's decision making.

 

[_Kain_]

Nair doesn't set up into grab unless you don't DI, neither does jab. Their both only situational. The reason why the CG from wario is not as threatning as the other ones from Pika/DDD is because all of Wario's approaches come from the air, so he's easy to telegraph how he is gonna come in to try to grab, and easy to wall off that way too. Bite only sets up into grab at the very low percents, too low for the CG to start I believe, dunno for sure

Only way I see Wario getting an actual grab off is from shield grabbing cause Wario's grab range is pretty good and anything mispaced on his shield he can probably grab. There's plenty other ways coming from reads but I don't really see Wario forcing Wolf into a grab like the other chars

Not really downplaying the CG but really Wario's only viable way of grabbing Wolf is reads/shieldgrabbing something mispaced which also isn't that hard since he has a good grab range.

Idk that's my two cents on it

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I think bite only leads into grab before CG %s, not sure though. Surprised that stages made such a big difference in the MU Reflex, what choices helped you out vs the Wolves?

Getting rid of platforms, mostly. Initially, I gave them stages with multiple platforms and/or lots of space, like Battlefield and Lylat Cruise.

 

[Lord Chair]

Wario actually has very few guaranteed setups into grab against Wolf. Nair has fairly poor frame advantage and the percentage window in which it actually combos into grab is somewhere up fairly high. Bite doesn't combo into grab at chaingrab percents. Jab is rather unlikely to ever land against Wolf unless Wolf messes up.

What Wolf has to commit to in order not to get grabbed is fairly gay though. There's still enough setups (especially fair) that just get the job done.

Platforms are dumb.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyUdoohXrMg ZSS/Snake +2

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Diddy vs MK is 50-50.

 

[NickRiddle]

Bizkit for worst Snake against ZSS ever.

 

[Luigi player]

Diddy vs MK is 50-50.

so diddy doesnt lose a single mu?

 

[Tesh]

tho

 

[SaveMeJebus]

so diddy doesnt lose a single mu?

Not with the Japanese stage list.

tho

Diddy goes even with Snake. He beats him in the air. Their ground games are pretty even. Diddy can rack up damage faster but Snake kills earlier but has no OOS kill moves.

 

[Player-1]

you guys are ****ing stupid

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Do you guys think that reads and mindgames should be taken into consideration when creating a MU?

 

[MEOW1337KITTEH]

Depends on the character really. If they have a good punish like Wario, GnW, ICs I think they should. But for like... falco it's not as important.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Depends on the character really. If they have a good punish like Wario, GnW, ICs I think they should. But for like... falco it's not as important.

What about Falco's F-Smash or Dthrow to BDACUS?

 

[infiniteV115]

Not necessarily the reads and mindgames in and of themselves, but the risk/reward associated with reads and mindgames executed by different characters.

eg Diddy trying to read a roll against Snake and punishing it with sideB is a lot safer than Jiggs trying to punish it with Rest

However you can't say things like "Diddy goes even with Snake, he just has to read all of Snake's rolls and punish them with sideB" cause whether or not he makes hard reads like that will depend on the players moreso than the characters

So yes reads and mindgames matter but HOW MUCH they matter depends on the characters...and in almost every case, reads and mindgames have very little weight on the MU

 

[Tesh]

Those don't really hit anywhere near as hard as those "dead at 50" moves from the others.

Obviously reads matter more in a situation where your character can perform something game changing with that read.

Look at Sonic, no matter how hard he reads you, he won't get much out of it because he doesn't have any really hard punishers, despite being very capable of punishing almost anything. Then look at wario or Gnw and when they read you, you get hit without something that kills you...at like 50.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

That's more player vs. player than character vs character though

 

[-LzR-]

No matter how good player you are you won't be able to make reads that kill at 50% with Sonic, but with G&W it's nothing unreasonable.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

No matter how good player you are you won't be able to make reads that kill at 50% with Sonic, but with G&W it's nothing unreasonable.

Yeah, but you can also go an entire set without getting a correct read. Reads are never 100% reliable

 

[Tesh]

That's more player vs. player than character vs character though

Reading is player vs player, but the rewards you get from a read are all about the character.

Yeah, but you can also go an entire set without getting a correct read. Reads are never 100% reliable

What? Without reads (or dumb luck) you won't really be able to win at high level play so what are you even talking about?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Reading is player vs player, but the rewards you get from a read are all about the character.

Yeah, but you wouldn't have gotten that reward without that read from the player.

What? Without reads (or dumb luck) you won't really be able to win at high level play so what are you even talking about?

A ganon player can out-read and beat an MK player but that doesn't make the match up even. Pretty much anything that involves player vs. player should be left out of the MU chart. The exceptions to the rule are moves that are near impossible to do with regular human timing or impossible to do consistently 100% of the time