Official Standard Custom Moveset Project Initial Release

[BestTeaMaker]

Slotting doesn't apply to Mii Fighters, so you may want to move that above "The custom movesets must be placed on slots 9-10" just for wording accuracy and to reduce any possible confusion.

You may also want to clarify that "load" means "put on the console" and not "swap loadouts", unless you meant swap loadouts, in which case I'm curious as to why that's a rule.

Well, I already wrote "Create a custom moveset", so I don't know how that confusion could happen. But thanks.

 

[Raijinken]

Well, I already wrote "Create a custom moveset", so I don't know how that confusion could happen. But thanks.

I've met some very inattentive readers in my lifetime. I think the meaning is clear enough, personally, but I'm always paranoid and go out of my way to squash any room for misinterpretation.

Either way, sounds like a good ruleset to me.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Here's the rules I'm using for a local tournament this Saturday:
http://www.facebook.com/events/806069132775750/permalink/806159189433411/

This week will have a locked set of customs for slots 1-10, with slots 7 through 10 decided by user submissions. The goal is to eventually move to a locked set for slots 1-8 once the local community have decided on their favorite sets, and allow players to change slots 9 and 10.

 

[Noa.]

People have been discussing Ness's customs.

Lasting pk thunder I think is pretty interesting. It does help your recovery because you can go much farther with it. This is important because this allows you to recover much lower or farther away from the stage, so it's not as easy for your opponent to reach you and hit you with an aerial. Plus the extended range helps when people jump into pkt2. When harassing with pk thunder, pkt2 is a lot harder to land because it travels a lot slower. I'm not sure on how the damage compares on individual pk thunders, but because you can usually land multiple default pk thunders, lasting pk thunder harassment will do less damage compared to default pk thunder harassment. However, when using lasting pk thunder against offstage opponents, there seems to be a hitbox that sends them away from the pk thunder. This could be very useful against characters with weak recoveries like Little Mac, Doc, and Ganondorf. But I have no idea how this hitbox works. I need to do more testing. I'm pretty sure that lasting pkt2 does more damage than default pkt2, if you land all the hits. But I never seem to be able to land all the hits. If I hit them with the beginning I don't tend to hit them with the last few hits, which sucks. So not only does lasting pkt2 have significantly less knockback, but landing that last hit with knockback is hard to hit with.

Default pk thunder is definitely much better than lasting pk thunder. The gains you get in recovery are very small, and do not compare to the loss of consistent pk thunder harassment and the threat of pkt2 kills. I don't think lasting pk thunder is awful though. Just not as good, which is a common theme for the better characters. Ness's recovery is not that great, but is not horrid enough to change his up b. I would only take lasting pk thunder if the metagame and strategy of edge guarding against Ness advances far enough to warrant it, and I doubt that will happen. Or I would take lasting pk thunder against certain characters if I could figure out how to correctly use the gimping hitbox.

All of the neutral Bs look useless to me. I haven't actually tried using rising pk flash though. I'll try it out the next time at a smashfest (probably tonight).

Of the pk fires, I still think default is best. Lucas pk fire is useful since it has more range and you can use it in the air more effectively than the default pk fire. But default pk fire has such a great possibility for a reward, and that is so central to Ness's gameplan. Pk bonfire is so short that it defeats any advantages it would otherwise gain.

 

[kraven202]

Customs at Evo sounds like such a great idea, however I fear that the way people are proposing it might just not work out. If customs ruin Evo because of how long they take or because other reasons then that's it for customs, custom will be done forever.

Now here's the thing: There's just way too much effort to be put from the community and the TOs and far too many complications with trying to use the Custom moveset project on such a large event. Now don't get me wrong; I'm all up for custom moves and I wish this could be done much easier. It could if Sakurai didnt decide to put something so awesome in the game then do it in the most horrible way humanly possible (by making them so hard to obtain and then so annoying and time consuming to equip instead of making a side menu on the character selection screen...) but... that did not happen and we're stuck with this...

Mixed sets also bring a lot of complications to the table like a very unstable metagame because movesets are going to keep changing constantly. There are so many combinations that it's going to be much much harder on players to adapt to match ups. Yes, you could select the 10 best movesets for each chararacter--but that also kinda defeats the purpose of allowing mixed sets which is to allow everyone to use their movesets and not something pre-determined. But if we allow people to use their movesets it would take way too much time...

Now here's the thing... I'm in favor of mixed sets, in fact that should be the goal for everyone using customs, and if you guys manage to pull that off for Evo then that'd be freaking amazing, however consider this...

If the custom moveset project goes down and it cant happen then at least we should make a Plan B which is to allow custom however they can only be used 2222 and 3333 and I know I know what you're all going to say: That it's not worth it and that you'd rather not use anything at all instead, but if that's the only way custom moves ever get to see the light of day then we should at least do it like that..

Doing it like this has its fair share of advantages too. It's much easier to set up, movesets don't constantly change, players won't have so much trouble adapting, a much more stable metagame, less trouble for both the TOs and the community... Even if it's just 2222 and 3333, a lot of characters already benefit a lot from it. (Mostly the bottom tiers)

For customs to happen, everyone needs to be on the same page. If you want customs to happen you need to agree on a stable way to make it happen; otherwise its just a mess of people saying they want it their way and that just scares the TOs because its so confusing and hard to apply. Same thing applies for Mii height/weight; just accept default/default and stop asking to be able to change the H/W because it's just not going to happen.

Bottom line, get on the same page and organize yourselves, the goal should be the custom moveset project, but if that can't happen then at least consider going for plan B so custom moves actually get to see some action.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Do you know what the enter button is by any chance?

Because nobody is going to read that giant wall o'text.

 

[Thinkaman]

Customs at Evo sounds like such a great idea, however I fear that the way people are proposing it might just not work out. If customs ruin Evo because of how long they take or because other reasons then that's it for customs, custom will be done forever.

Now here's the thing: There's just way too much effort to be put from the community and the TOs and far too many complications with trying to use the Custom moveset project on such a large event. Now don't get me wrong; I'm all up for custom moves and I wish this could be done much easier. It could if Sakurai didnt decide to put something so awesome in the game then do it in the most horrible way humanly possible (by making them so hard to obtain and then so annoying and time consuming to equip instead of making a side menu on the character selection screen...) but... that did not happen and we're stuck with this...

Mixed sets also bring a lot of complications to the table like a very unstable metagame because movesets are going to keep changing constantly. There are so many combinations that it's going to be much much harder on players to adapt to match ups. Yes, you could select the 10 best movesets for each chararacter--but that also kinda defeats the purpose of allowing mixed sets which is to allow everyone to use their movesets and not something pre-determined. But if we allow people to use their movesets it would take way too much time...

Now here's the thing... I'm in favor of mixed sets, in fact that should be the goal for everyone using customs, and if you guys manage to pull that off for Evo then that'd be freaking amazing, however consider this...

If the custom moveset project goes down and it cant happen then at least we should make a Plan B which is to allow custom however they can only be used 2222 and 3333 and I know I know what you're all going to say: That it's not worth it and that you'd rather not use anything at all instead, but if that's the only way custom moves ever get to see the light of day then we should at least do it like that..

Doing it like this has its fair share of advantages too. It's much easier to set up, movesets don't constantly change, players won't have so much trouble adapting, a much more stable metagame, less trouble for both the TOs and the community... Even if it's just 2222 and 3333, a lot of characters already benefit a lot from it. (Mostly the bottom tiers)

For customs to happen, everyone needs to be on the same page. If you want customs to happen you need to agree on a stable way to make it happen; otherwise its just a mess of people saying they want it their way and that just scares the TOs because its so confusing and hard to apply. Same thing applies for Mii height/weight; just accept default/default and stop asking to be able to change the H/W because it's just not going to happen.

Bottom line, get on the same page and organize yourselves, the goal should be the custom moveset project, but if that can't happen then at least consider going for plan B so custom moves actually get to see some action.

This was a community service.

 

[Shamrock7r]

Ness absolutely needs a 1113 setup. His magnet pull is superior in every way to Lucas magnet for non healing purposes

 

[Neoleo21]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgVYCEVidpE

Could some one please enlighten me on the drawbacks to Quick Fire Bow and Piercing Aura Sphere? I understand that the engagement factor of this match was actually really interesting, but I'm nervous for what the video refers to as "High Priority Projectiles".

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

In April, I'll probably be running the first Smash 4 national tournament with customs legal. It's called Sandstorm down in Phoenix, AZ and we already have tons of good players confirmed going (including m2k and zero). We'll be utilizing this project but we NEED to have good presets. Im relying on you @ Amazing Ampharos to polish this as much as possible before April 18-19 because the whole country will be watching (and potentially using) your preset list in the near future.

I won't let you down; we'll definitely have further polished pre-sets before the start of April given the recent developments.

 

[warriorman222]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgVYCEVidpE

Could some one please enlighten me on the drawbacks to Quick Fire Bow and Piercing Aura Sphere? I understand that the engagement factor of this match was actually really interesting, but I'm nervous for what the video refers to as "High Priority Projectiles".

Quick Fire Bow is complete garbage, I don't even know where to begin (Lack of damage and range mean you can just SH over them). Piercing Sphere is also in the same boat. They're both meh in doubles and garbage in singles, and have customs much better than them (Power/Hero Bow, Snaring Sphere)

 

[Thinkaman]

Yeah, why would anyone use those moves in this matchup??? The damage was pitiful and easily avoided.

 

[Shamrock7r]

Edit: retracting this until I study more. My previous post got the numbers mixed up

 

[warriorman222]

Yeah, why would anyone use those moves in this matchup??? The damage was pitiful and easily avoided.

Yeah, i took them forever, to get dmage on each other. The camping was horrible, and I wonder if the person who made that video realized how little damage they were doing to each other.

 

[Thinkaman]

Yeah, i took them forever, to get dmage on each other. The camping was horrible, and I wonder if the person who made that video realized how little damage they were doing to each other.

Mario's fast fireball is the same way; it seems great until you realize it is doing 1% per hit.

 

[warriorman222]

Mario's fast fireball is the same way; it seems great until you realize it is doing 1% per hit.

Like, seriously, 1%? If I shoot you 100 times, you're at 100%. Normal fireball,400-600%. Fire Orb, 200(Horribly unlikely)-999(probably what will happen)s%. Seriously, it's extrmely weak, even with +200 Attack vs -200 defense.

 

[Thinkaman]

Like, seriously, 1%? If I shoot you 100 times, you're at 100%. Normal fireball,400-600%. Fire Orb, 200(Horribly unlikely)-999(probably what will happen)s%. Seriously, it's extrmely weak, even with +200 Attack vs -200 defense.

I exaggerated; it's not literally 1%. It's 1.5% at range, 2.3% close, and 3% point-blank. Still, the point stands.

 

[warriorman222]

I exaggerated; it's not literally 1%. It's 1.5% at range, 2.3% close, and 3% point-blank. Still, the point stands.

I was gonna say 100%-300%, but for some reason I didn't. It's still extremely weak.

Not like Fire Orb is better, it's way too slow, although if you catch someone in it you can get some serious damage and setups in.

 

[chaosmasterro]

For custom build 2222 and 3333 should we actually use that for slots 7 and 8? Aside from a set few its only use would be for practice. During a tournament i see having slot 7-10 open for more customization.

However, as time goes on people should move away from relying on 3ds transfers and focus on unlocking customs on the wii u. It will make it easier in the long run

 

[popsofctown]

For custom build 2222 and 3333 should we actually use that for slots 7 and 8? Aside from a set few its only use would be for practice. During a tournament i see having slot 7-10 open for more customization.

However, as time goes on people should move away from relying on 3ds transfers and focus on unlocking customs on the wii u. It will make it easier in the long run

I don't think it helps very much at all. Just one incompletely unlocked Wii U at the venue totally changes protocol and necessitates DS transfer. And a tournament is like any procedure in that it is only as fast as its worst bottleneck.

Fast fireball makes people feel like they need to approach you, interrupts certain moves with the tiny amount of hitstun, and refreshes your other moves. What makes default fireball an appealing alternative is much less the additional damage and much more the ability to create frame traps and option reductions with the default fireball's slow travel speed.
Well, IMO.

 

[Splash Damage]

Here's my two cents after thinking on it for a while:
I think that, if the community manages to band together as One Unit(sorry i had to) and determine the best, most common sets for all characters and also come up with a proper, accurate banlist, then custom moves should definitely be allowed at Evo. There's no real reason against it, the only one I can think of is lack of testing, and if this thread is any indication, then that's clearly a moot point due to the clear level of dedication and testing. After quietly following this thread for quite a bit now, I can safely say that enough testing and discussion is being done to be able to develop the Customs Meta enough in time for Apex.

That being said, I feel we should begin another part of this discussion: The Banlist.
To anyone active in this thread, do you have any customs you believe to be far too broken, and if so, which and why?

 

[Sandwiches]

Did this ever get a revision from the initial release?

 

[Sixfortyfive]

That being said, I feel we should begin another part of this discussion: The Banlist.

IMO, unless a character somehow manages to jump well ahead of vanilla Diddy, I don't think this is even worth talking about.

 

[prOAPC]

So I'm making a ruleset for a local event I'll be hosting in a few weeks. Here's a draft I wrote for the section concerning custom movesets. I wanted to get some feedback to see if I did this right.

---

Custom Movesets

· Every official setup must have the Amazing Ampharos’s Custom Moveset List installed before the event begins in slots 1-8

o The latest version of the List must be uploaded​

· If a player wants to use a custom moveset that is not listed in the Amazing Ampharos’s Custom Moveset List, they must notify the TO before the event begins

o This includes custom Mii Fighters​

· Players may only load or create a custom moveset to an official setup before a match begins

o The custom moveset must be named based on which moveset is used (i.e. 1111, 2222, 3333, etc…)

o The custom movesets must be placed on slots 9-10

o This includes custom Mii Fighters​

· Players are not allowed to load or create a custom movesets in between games

· Equipment is banned, and the usage of equipment in a match will result in an automatic disqualification

Quoted, I'll use this on a local tournament

 

[Raijinken]

Did this ever get a revision from the initial release?

Yes. Despite the thread title never being changed, the sets in the post are updated. The bottom of the OP contains the changelog.

 

[Octagon]

IMO, unless a character somehow manages to jump well ahead of vanilla Diddy, I don't think this is even worth talking about.

Yeah I don't think any custom sets will be banned because Nintendo has made sure that every single one has its own pros and cons

 

[warriorman222]

Yeah I don't think any custom sets will be banned because Nintendo has made sure that every single one has its own pros and cons

However, people are still gonna complain about how Kong Cyclone is broken or this is too good, this is absolute garbage... It's never going to end. EVER.

 

[Octagon]

However, people are still gonna complain about how Kong Cyclone is broken or this is too good, this is absolute garbage... It's never going to end. EVER.

Just like Taylor Swift said..."And the haters gonna hate. hate hate hate hate..."

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

You guys have seen this, yeah? This is definitely ban material as far as customs. It's clearly an amplification glitch that shouldn't allow Pikmin to have amplified damage after the order tackle, and shouldn't allow them to do more than 1.5 or 2 times the damage from a reflector when returning to Olimar.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

You guys have seen this, yeah? This is definitely ban material as far as customs. It's clearly an amplification glitch that shouldn't allow Pikmin to have amplified damage after the order tackle, and shouldn't allow them to do more than 1.5 or 2 times the damage from a reflector when returning to Olimar.

This is some sort of interesting bug. I think not reflecting is pretty much a solution for singles; this is obviously completely broken in teams, but I'm not convinced this is broken. It's still really dumb, and while I wouldn't seriously object to a ban (because honestly this exploit is the main reason you'd use that custom...), I don't think it's necessary.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

This is some sort of interesting bug. I think not reflecting is pretty much a solution for singles; this is obviously completely broken in teams, but I'm not convinced this is broken. It's still really dumb, and while I wouldn't seriously object to a ban (because honestly this exploit is the main reason you'd use that custom...), I don't think it's necessary.

I don't think you're looking at the full scope of this issue. Any Olimar main would know about this glitch, but there's no way to keep every other player informed about it. Countless players would be at risk to falling prey to this technique in any singles bracket who simply never seen nor heard of it, and would significantly hinder the general opinion of custom tournaments. Heck, I learned about this video minutes ago from an opponent of custom tournaments, who was championing this technique to prove his point.

I think it's quite clear that this tech presents a problem that the custom move project needs to address as soon as possible.

 

[thehard]

I don't think you're looking at the full scope of this issue. Any Olimar main would know about this glitch, but there's no way to keep every other player informed about it. Countless players would be at risk to falling prey to this technique in any singles bracket who simply never seen nor heard of it, and would significantly hinder the general opinion of custom tournaments. Heck, I learned about this video minutes ago from an opponent of custom tournaments, who was championing this technique to prove his point.

I think it's quite clear that this tech presents a problem that the custom move project needs to address as soon as possible.

If he tried backing his argument with an obvious glitch it must not have been a very good argument

This'll probably get fixed next patch.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

I don't think you're looking at the full scope of this issue. Any Olimar main would know about this glitch, but there's no way to keep every other player informed about it. Countless players would be at risk to falling prey to this technique in any singles bracket who simply never seen nor heard of it

...So, they'll eat their one loss and then remember to not reflect any more Pikmin.

If you want to make a case that it's too broken for doubles, then that's one thing, but it seems trivially easy to work around in singles.

 

[Raijinken]

I'd have sworn I was told by a moderator that we don't ban things for glitches like that, since that's catering a rule to balance the game </s>

If Pikachu instafilling buckets wasn't banned before that was patched, there's no reason for this to be banned, after all.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

...So, they'll eat their one loss and then remember to not reflect any more Pikmin.

If you want to make a case that it's too broken for doubles, then that's one thing, but it seems trivially easy to work around in singles.

I...huh? I'm seriously shocked to hear this response from you guys. If this happened to you for the first time in a set, you'd probably have no idea what the cause was. It's a programming error, not some cool exploit like wavedashing. Again, if YOU knew about something like this, then there'd be no issue. But what about the other innocent competitors who would be blindsided by something like this?

 

[Rehnquist]

I don't think you're looking at the full scope of this issue. Any Olimar main would know about this glitch, but there's no way to keep every other player informed about it. Countless players would be at risk to falling prey to this technique in any singles bracket who simply never seen nor heard of it, and would significantly hinder the general opinion of custom tournaments. Heck, I learned about this video minutes ago from an opponent of custom tournaments, who was championing this technique to prove his point.

I think it's quite clear that this tech presents a problem that the custom move project needs to address as soon as possible.

Playing devils advocate here, what really separates this knowledge from say the link/fox near infinite combos or ZZS true infinite combo on certain characters?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDikQiU9fC0

You'd be hard press to say that knowledge shouldn't be a factor. Also considering that some characters are clearly hard counters to others (sonic v meta knight), its entirely reasonable to treat it as a hard counter where you would need a pocket to circumvent.

I can see the argument for a doubles ban, but singles seems to be slightly harder to justify considering the other issues present.

I don't disagree with being vigilant, just saying that the specific example isn't entirely out of the norm of brokenness. The fact that it requires an action from an opponent in singles to make it work seems to neuter this exploit in singles. Knowledge should be a thing at any rate.

 

[Raijinken]

I...huh? I'm seriously shocked to hear this response from you guys. If this happened to you for the first time in a set, you'd probably have no idea what the cause was. It's a programming error, not some cool exploit like wavedashing. Again, if YOU knew about something like this, then there'd be no issue. But what about the other innocent competitors who would be blindsided by something like this?

"Some cool exploit like wavedashing" is literally just as unseeable to a player not looking for it as a damage amp glitch. All it would look like is people slip-sliding around the ground moving faster than you know is possible. It's the exact same sort of trick, except this one is character-specific.

If you lose to it, spread the word about it so people don't reflect Olimar's stuff as much. Either way, not even G&W+Pikachu/Samus is/was doubles banned, so... not sure what the point is there. It's strong, it's situational, and as it is very clearly a glitch, it will probably be fixed in the future.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

I...huh? I'm seriously shocked to hear this response from you guys. If this happened to you for the first time in a set, you'd probably have no idea what the cause was. It's a programming error, not some cool exploit like wavedashing. Again, if YOU knew about something like this, then there'd be no issue. But what about the other innocent competitors who would be blindsided by something like this?

Ignorance is not an excuse. And a technique that is reliant on your opponent's lack of knowledge is literally the definition of a gimmick.

If I got blindsided by something like this? I'd go home and do my homework and not get hit by it again, because from the description I'm seeing, this glitch is dependent on both players' actions to pull it off. If I simply don't reflect, then I deny my opponent this glitch entirely.

Between knowledgeable players, this effectively grants Olimar the ability to remove his opponent's reflector from play. That sounds pretty neat, but not game-breaking.

Doubles is a different story though.

 

[Raijinken]

Ignorance is not an excuse. And a technique that is reliant on your opponent's lack of knowledge is literally the definition of a gimmick.

If I got blindsided by something like this? I'd go home and do my homework and not get hit by it again, because from the description I'm seeing, this glitch is dependent on both players' actions to pull it off. If I simply don't reflect, then I deny my opponent this glitch entirely.

Between knowledgeable players, this effectively grants Olimar the ability to remove his opponent's reflector from play. That sounds pretty neat, but not game-breaking.

Doubles is a different story though.

Is this glitch persistent between stocks? That's literally the only thing I can think of that could make it more broken in doubles than insta-charged Buckets or Double Pocket shenanigans.

And it relies on an unpopular doubles character to begin with.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

I'm just saying that I can at least see a case for debate in doubles. It's barely a blip on the radar otherwise.

EDIT: But really, though, that kind of information sharing is exactly what everyone should be focused on doing right now. All of this talk about being afraid that powerful unknown techniques will just scare people away from the idea of custom tournaments is nonsense. The quickest way to make them known is to share them!