Official Standard Custom Moveset Project Initial Release

[ParanoidDrone]

@Piford

Rosalina's down special customs are trivially better than default against anyone without a projectile (and maybe a few with one depending on how much you care about absorbing it), for what that's worth. Default is the best general option if you don't know your opponent though, you're right.

 

[Thinkaman]

Most people say it's like giving Rosalina Melee Falco's lasers, but its only like that if Falco could only shoot one laser at a time, couldn't cancel the ending lag, the lasers can't travel as far, and you can take away Falco's gun for 13 seconds if you hit him right. It's a good move, but very overhyped.

It also desycs Luma momentarily (in a non-helpful way) when used in the air. This also means that unlike most fast aerial projectiles, reflectors are not ineffective and get free damage on Luma.

 

[warriorman222]

HOO HAH is the least of your worries.

Like seriously that's awesome if it's not DIable.

 

[Raijinken]

Jiggly's Toss Rest combo is very percent dependent, and as it KOs near the top, you're basically guaranteed to get followup punished if it wasn't the last stock, unless they Star KO. Still a very fun trick, though.

I still can't decide for Link if I like Power Bow or regular more. Power Bow nets me a lot of kills, but that could be because of my opponents. The default's harassment is so much more versatile, but the feeling of a kill at 80% on a recovering character is just glorious.

 

[warriorman222]

Jiggly's Toss Rest combo is very percent dependent, and as it KOs near the top, you're basically guaranteed to get followup punished if it wasn't the last stock, unless they Star KO. Still a very fun trick, though.

I still can't decide for Link if I like Power Bow or regular more. Power Bow nets me a lot of kills, but that could be because of my opponents. The default's harassment is so much more versatile, but the feeling of a kill at 80% on a recovering character is just glorious.

It charges slower than normal Bow. Sakurai officially ruined it. Where are you gonna get 1.53 seconds of free time? 0.eighty or ninety something was hard enough.

 

[Raijinken]

It charges slower than normal Bow. Sakurai officially ruined it. Where are you gonna get 1.53 seconds of free time? 0.eighty or ninety something was hard enough.

Against my friends, clearly. Limitations of playing a small group of people and being the best in that group, I suppose.

 

[warriorman222]

Against my friends, clearly. Limitations of playing a small group of people and being the best in that group, I suppose.

Do you mean me, you, or Sakurai(I'm guessing the latter). Although Sakurai's Ganon is beyond garbage, I get that if he's the best in his group, he'll see things as disproportionally too good, when in reality it could be horrible or simply more useful in this case, but bad in others.

 

[Raijinken]

Do you mean me, you, or Sakurai(I'm guessing the latter). Although Sakurai's Ganon is beyond garbage, I get that if he's the best in his group, he'll see things as disproportionally too good, when in reality it could be horrible or simply more useful in this case, but bad in others.

I meant in my own play against my own friends. And as you mention, it leads to a lot of things being seen as disproportionately good. One of those is certainly the Power Bow. Conversely, Kong Cyclone is barely an issue for me because I play against it so much and have learned its tricks and how to avoid it. Thus, though it may strike others as hideously overpowered, it bothers me less than most default characters.

 

[warriorman222]

I meant in my own play against my own friends. And as you mention, it leads to a lot of things being seen as disproportionately good. One of those is certainly the Power Bow. Conversely, Kong Cyclone is barely an issue for me because I play against it so much and have learned its tricks and how to avoid it. Thus, though it may strike others as hideously overpowered, it bothers me less than most default characters.

Yeah. I had to deal with so much Kong Cyclone that now I have more trouble dealing with Spinning kong than it. Jumping Inhale= gg no re.

 

[DunnoBro]

HOO HAH is the least of your worries.

Like seriously that's awesome if it's not DIable.

It is diable. But not only is it hard to DI due to the speed she throws, but the DI can be read. Upthrow > Check > Dash in direction > Jump > Leaping rest

In my experience, the most consistent percents leaping rest kills at are the ones she needs to short hop into it with.

Also IIRC melee rest killed outright off the sides, leaving it pretty punishable too despite being a good move. Though melee didn't have the godly smash attacks we do...

 

[Raijinken]

It is diable. But not only is it hard to DI due to the speed she throws, but the DI can be read. Upthrow > Check > Dash in direction > Jump > Leaping rest

In my experience, the most consistent percents leaping rest kills at are the ones she needs to short hop into it with.

Also IIRC melee rest killed outright off the sides, leaving it pretty punishable too despite being a good move. Though melee didn't have the godly smash attacks we do...

To be fair, Rest isn't particularly reliable to kill before the rest of her moves now, either. Her wall of pain is still strong, and her smashes hit hard if you land them. It's a good kill to get if you're ahead, but not the kind I'd bank on from a near-even fight.

 

[Teshie U]

I think that's not a misconception by most people. People get that the top tiers gain some alternately good moves. I don't think many are strait up upgrades to really good moves, but I haven't done all my homework. When people say that they don't gain anything, it was because most of their specials were good already and they don't get much better with customs, but the worse characters like Ike had mediocre specials that are now replaced with significantly better ones. Sheik replaces her pretty bad side b for a bad side b. Ness gets a safer up b, but it loses a lot of its utility and attacking/kill power. All of Villagers customs seem equally good as his standards, and will be used based off preference (but all his customs are great and he does benefit a lot). I don't really know much about Sonic.

Rosalina is definitely the most overhyped character with customs. Yes she benefits from them, but it's not like she becomes the most amazing character ever like some people hype. Luma warp is nice, but definitely has its weakness compared to the original. Yesterday, someone actually lost because they used Luma Warp IIRC, they used it and their opponent ran in while Luma was teleporting and he got the punish on Rosalina since Luma was half way across the stage. I've seen her standard down b be more useful than her custom, but that could possibly be because I've seen significantly more standard play than custom. It still seems like the original is better since it isn't reliant on Luma and it can act as a counter attack if the projectile hits your opponent. Her shooting star bits are super overhyped. Yes, they are good, but the original starbits were also not that bad. Most people say it's like giving Rosalina Melee Falco's lasers, but its only like that if Falco could only shoot one laser at a time, couldn't cancel the ending lag, the lasers can't travel as far, and you can take away Falco's gun for 13 seconds if you hit him right. It's a good move, but very overhyped.

Sonic gains a more accurate more safe homing attack that wont make him SD and small gimmicks to replace otherwise redundant tactics.

Being less exploitable off stage is a big deal for Ness and at high level play, PKT2 is not a huge deal. With the prominence of counters in this game the power can be a liability actually.

If you think Villager isn't getting direct upgrade and massive stage control out of his specials, I don't know what to tell you.

Sheik's custom projectiles set up kills for her VERY well and its something she very much needs.

Rosalina gets notable advantages that fit with her character design. Warp and Shooting Star Bit are good additions and catch and release is at least of some use vs characters without projectiles.

 

[Thinkaman]

Being less exploitable off stage is a big deal for Ness and at high level play, PKT2 is not a huge deal. With the prominence of counters in this game the power can be a liability actually.

I won my last tourney by going Ness, so trust me: Lasting PKT is not a great move. It's not actually a safer or better recovery, because anything that gimps Ness does so by cancelling/absorbing the projectile with a hitbox (or reflector or similar) or moving Ness himself with a windbox. Lasting PKT addresses neither while being a vastly worse harassment projectile, basically useless.

If you think Villager isn't getting direct upgrade and massive stage control out of his specials, I don't know what to tell you.

Garden is a nice upgrade in matchups where Pocket doesn't matter, and Extreme Balloon Trip will indeed prove superior at high level play. But Timber Counter, as good as it is (and it IS good), is doomed to be massively overrated.

People are sleeping on the axe. It's ordinarily a disjointed frame-6 14% aerial kill move you can b-reverse and wavebounce; legitimately one of the best moves in the game. Timber Counter, as amazing as it is, forces Villager to give this up.

I'm by no means saying he shouldn't run it, but Timber Counter is imo always going to be the custom with the most overestimated advantages and the most underestimated costs.

Sheik's custom projectiles set up kills for her VERY well and its something she very much needs.

Gravity grenade? It's better than the default, but is still not really worth using.

Rosalina gets notable advantages that fit with her character design. Warp and Shooting Star Bit are good additions and catch and release is at least of some use vs characters without projectiles.

Guardian Luma is actually better than Catch & Release imo.

Shooting Star Bit is really good but also really overrated. It has a lot of limitations most basic projectiles do not have. Still, it forces people to approach her in many matchups.

Luma Warp is great, and does legitimately help her a lot.

The downside is, while Rosalina does better against people like Diddy, all these low-tiers she stomped previously gain various anti-Luma tech. The most extreme example is WFT (whose core moveset is actually outranged by Luma), who gains Jumbo Hoop--maybe the best anti-Luma move in the game.

 

[Teshie U]

I have plenty of practice against Ness and I know its laughably easy to gimp him by just getting in his way or dropping an item in his path to cut the distance in half.

Its easy to tech and even easier for someone like Sonic or diddy to just drop something in his way so he wont make it.

The axe is nice, but having stage control from the sapling or counter tree is far more useful against the stronger aggressive characters.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Guardian Luma is actually better than Catch & Release imo.

To be fair, "better than Catch & Release" is not a very high standard. Although I struggle to remember that Guardian Luma exists when I do run it, so eh.

 

[DunnoBro]

Duck Hunt also receives zigzag can and rising clay, which pierce/ignore luma. (They're also better general anti-camp and approach forcers which work on a lot of other characters. )Though against characters with rushdown as their main style, they're pretty bad against them

 

[hey_there]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKXNJwnkeNw Saw someone post this on facebook and thought it was relevant. I'm glad that customs are getting much more positive exposure now.

 

[DunnoBro]

Lmaoo I was staying in Shofu's hotel room at apex and he was the only one going "Maaaan... **** customs" when I was showing them off.

People are seeing the light :^)

In hindsight the first custom match he saw ending with someone trying to air dodge leaping rest, and the hitbox still lasting long enough to kill them might've been a bad first taste =p

 

[thehard]

Lmaoo I was staying in Shofu's hotel room at apex and he was the only one going "Maaaan... **** customs" when I was showing them off.

People are seeing the light :^)

In hindsight the first custom match he saw ending with someone trying to air dodge leaping rest, and the hitbox still lasting long enough to kill them might've been a bad first taste =p

Oh yeah, I forgot everyone hated moves that punish air dodges

DunnoBro, you're a custom move apostle.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Lmaoo I was staying in Shofu's hotel room at apex and he was the only one going "Maaaan... **** customs" when I was showing them off.

People are seeing the light :^)

In hindsight the first custom match he saw ending with someone trying to air dodge leaping rest, and the hitbox still lasting long enough to kill them might've been a bad first taste =p

Wat.

This isn't the first time I've heard that Leaping Rest has an insane hitbox. When does it stop being active?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Starts on Frame 2, ends on something like Frame 53. It has a strong hitbox (but weaker than regular Rest) on Frames 2-4, then the whole way up has a solid-power 10% hitbox.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Luma Warp and Shooting Star Bit are awesome on Rosalina, but you have to look at it in context. They mostly make her game a lot more dynamic and interesting and open doors for her to fight the fastest characters in a more efficient way (translation: Diddy and Sheik, especially Diddy). This character is so much more fun with customs that I always want to play with them just because it makes the game more enjoyable. From a pure win/lose perspective though, so many characters have special moves that seem to exist purely to ruin my poor Luma's day. I don't really resent this reality since it's my job to play well and protect Luma anyway, but I'm totally unconvinced my character gets a real net tier benefit from customs on as for the (very substantial) gains I get vs Diddy a dozen others get gains vs me. I just think almost every match-up involving Rosalina is a lot more dynamic and interesting from both sides with customs on, and that makes for a better game to play.

And yeah, Gravitational Pull is pretty much just correct on down special in any match-up where it does anything at all; even against bad projectiles it's pretty handy. Guardian Luma is extremely mediocre but against about 10 characters technically worth bringing since doing something really mediocre (mostly just protecting a separated Luma in the most difficult and limited way possible; as an attack, normals almost always outclass it) is better than doing literally nothing. Catch & Release is a candidate for the worst move in the game, and I truly can't imagine any conceivable situation in which you would want to use it.

I'll also comment about Ness. Shaky is in my region, seems to be the best Ness. He hits with PKT2 ridiculously often; it's a huge deal as an attack since Ness has tons of tricky traps to make it hit. He super rarely gets gimped; it's really hard to get in his way since he's super comfortable using Pk Thunder from any angle whatsoever so he's recovering before you can position for a gimp. Ness's double jump is huge anyway and a majority of the time he doesn't even need PKT... I'm actually convinced that a high level Ness has an above average recovery that's just one of the most difficult ones to master. I think Ness has a few prospects with customs by replacing PSI Magnet in a match-ups where it doesn't do anything, and Rising Pk Flash and both Pk Fire variants seem like they could have interesting counterpick value. I would not consider seriously using Lasting Pk Thunder since it's just so much weaker, and while Rolling Pk Thunder is a very interesting idea that could have been great, that bolt just travels too slowly to be a practical move. Power to you if you can see tournament success with Lasting Pk Thunder and a big thing with customs is indeed allowing players with diverse playstyles to realize their optimum characters, but I'm pretty well absolutely certain Ness is a weaker character with Lasting Pk Thunder brought along.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

And yeah, Gravitational Pull is pretty much just correct on down special in any match-up where it does anything at all; even against bad projectiles it's pretty handy. Guardian Luma is extremely mediocre but against about 10 characters technically worth bringing since doing something really mediocre (mostly just protecting a separated Luma in the most difficult and limited way possible; as an attack, normals almost always outclass it) is better than doing literally nothing. Catch & Release is a candidate for the worst move in the game, and I truly can't imagine any conceivable situation in which you would want to use it.

I can sort of, kind of, maybe see the windbox on Catch & Release helping to mess up spacing and cause some attacks to whiff. It also has the benefit of working even without Luma and completes the fastest out of all her down special options. But yeah, it's...not that great. At all.

 

[Neoleo21]

Lmaoo I was staying in Shofu's hotel room at apex and he was the only one going "Maaaan... **** customs" when I was showing them off.

People are seeing the light :^)

In hindsight the first custom match he saw ending with someone trying to air dodge leaping rest, and the hitbox still lasting long enough to kill them might've been a bad first taste =p

He thinks they're fun but not viable for competitive. Most notably he thinks that twisting fox killing at 60 on rosa is broken, though I see it as a better reason to have 3 stocks in the custom metagame.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

He thinks they're fun but not viable for competitive. Most notably he thinks that twisting fox killing at 60 on rosa is broken, though I see it as a better reason to have 3 stocks in the custom metagame.

You'd think the potential to kill one of the game's most loathed characters (if Apex is any indication) at 60% would be cause for celebration. Huh.

 

[warriorman222]

You'd think the potential to kill one of the game's most loathed characters (if Apex is any indication) at 60% would be cause for celebration. Huh.

Nope. Killing 4th lighest character at 60% near an edge with a medium-hard read, then almost SDing for it is busted.

Anyways, Twisting Fox is really good.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

So this was posted in the character impressions thread, and then we were reminded to go back on topic. I'd like to put in a few words here, and where better than, well, this thread?

1.) Customs-on is an acknowledgement that the core roster isn't enough. It's an explicit admittance that the core roster of 50 characters isn't good enough and not interesting enough. It de-legitimizes the game. This is a problem because

2.) Customized gameplay is bad for the long-term health of the community. Smash isn't Skyrim; Melee didn't need mods. Project M was an acknowledgement that Brawl isn't a very good game, that gameplay needed to be spiced up, and now is fighting to remain in tournaments and has faced numerous setbacks this year.

Both of these are really wrong. Customs is by no means an acknowledgement that the "basic" game isn't enough, it's an acknowledgement that the game with customs is better. The comparison to Project M is ridiculous - Project M is not brawl. It's a questionably legal mod, just a step below a full rebuild of the engine from the ground up, and the reason it's facing setbacks is not "it's different", it's "it's of questionable legality and Nintendo doesn't want it around". You know what games have modularity? League. DOTA. CoD. Counterstrike. To a slightly lesser degree, Marvel vs. Capcom 2 and 3, and Street Fighter. You know what's interesting about all of those? They're all bigger than Smash. Or, in the case of the Marvel franchise, was. Hell, in the first four, it's as if you went into the match blind to what character your opponent picked and still didn't know all the details halfway through the match!

Smash 4 with customs is just as much Smash 4 as Smash 4 without customs. It's the same game. It's just different, and most of us would argue better, due to all investigation thus far indicating that customs lead to more low-tiers becoming more viable. A far more valid comparison would be a tournament running 11 or 13 stages, and a tournament running Omega Mode only. Same game, just one has more depth, more variety, more things to learn, and is better.

Smash has always struggled for relevancy; I don't think customs are going to be welcoming to outsiders, because

3.) There isn't in-game support for customs. Customs are not permitted when playing "With Anyone" and For Glory does not allow for customs. This is probably the biggest reason I am opposed to customs.

For Glory is not a good comparison point. See also: my comparison involving stagelists. We cannot use For Glory to determine our ruleset any more than we can use For Fun.

The next biggest would be that

4.) Permutations of characters will number in the thousands. It's not simply a question of how many new moves would come into the game. It's that there would be an enormous number of permutations of movesets. You wouldn't just be preparing for Mario, you'd be preparing for twenty Marios, the one withh Fast Fireball and Shocking Cape, and the one with Shocking Cape and Scalding Fludd, and the one with customs on in every slot, etc. The roster is 50 (51? I always mix it up) and I believe there would be thousands of different possible character loadouts, but I haven't done the math, and I admittedly and am not sure exactly how many custom moves in total there are.

This makes a number of really bad assumptions.

Assumption 1: All custom specials are substantially different enough to need adapting to. This is just not true. Enough of them are similar enough that this number drops.
Assumption 2: All custom specials are similarly useful. Do you have to adapt to the worst layout a character has? Not likely. Nobody is going to play it. This significantly reduces your list. You think a Diddy is going to switch off of Monkey Flip? Not likely. Or that a Mii Brawler is particularly likely to use their upB 1? Nope, that move sucks.So this pares down your list by a long shot.
Assumption 3: You have to learn the permutations. No, you have to learn the customs. At 12 per character, that clocks in at a whopping... 624. Still pretty substantial, but now pare away the ones like "Dashing Falcon Punch" which are self-explanatory; the ones like Abyss that are pretty much the same move; the ones like Exploding Popgun which are completely useless (I can't believe that move is a real thing)... How many are you left with? 50? 100? Is it still such an impossible, daunting task, considering you're already expected to understand the normals of every character in the cast as well? I bet that's a lot more than 624 moves!

Because of how many loadouts there would be,

5.) Extremely defensive play would become the norm. Imagine a third jump was added to Melee. Everything else remains the same, but now there is a third jump. Wouldn't that change everything? Because it wouldn't just be the single extra move that would matter, it would be how it would interact with other moves, with Fox's upair and Falco's dair and Ganondorf's bair and on and on and on. Of course. You already know this. So why do I have to explain that turning customs on would create for an unpredictable environment? When every opponent is a special little snowflake, defensive play is rewarded the most, and the campers stand victorious.

@ Thinkaman didn't you have something to say on this subject? Of course, this isn't true. Being able to aggro your opponent when your opponent doesn't know what you're doing is far more rewarding than defensive play, because once they're in a bad position, their disadvantage is vastly improved. And of course, this is all theorysmash. None of this has played out in practice.

6.) The game will not be balanced. It took just one tiny little interaction - Diddy's down-throw to upair - to cause the community to scream that the game was broken and needed patching to balance. And the core roster was extensively tested for balance! And now you're going to dump a massive additional movepool on the game and assume everything will be okey-dokey? When that movepool was never integrated with the core game, can only be used under special circumstances, and in fact requires unlocking? Kay...

Currently, the tests people have done on the subject have been exceedingly positive. This careful, defensive play? Didn't happen. Horrible brokenness? So far, no dice.

I don't know if anyone watched Tourney Locator's Shockwave tournament last night, but there was an incredible amount of derping around, weird deaths, and cheese, and an air of "WTF was that?" dominated the stream. I guarantee customs are a turnoff to the tournament scene, which is why I don't support customs-on in tournaments.

Did anyone watch the prerelease E3 promotional? Fair bit of that going on there, too.

Customs adds a lot of new stuff to the game. A lot of new stuff that needs adapting to. Until people know the options and what's going on, they're going to derp around. They're going to get hit by stupid ****. They're gonna run into weird stuff. But the idea that it's a turnoff to the tournament scene is completely unfounded. Xanadu is on board. EVO might be on board. Most people who take the time to actually learn this stuff don't get ****ed by it. And you know what? If a few people want to ***** and moan about it, let 'em. And then tell them, "No Johns, Learn To Play". Because that's the crux of it. They need to learn to play. Not just whine because they didn't know that Falcon Punch now dashes forward. Not moan because they didn't DI something and died at 60 to the game's most prominent glass cannon. Learn. To. Play.


Seriously.

 

[prOAPC]

I made a video showing each set with the names of each attack, hope it helps

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJgtqHnoYvA

 

[Octagon]

I made a video showing each set with the names of each attack, hope it helps

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJgtqHnoYvA

This video is amazing omg

 

[Big O]

Is there going to be an update for this with 8-10 slots filled for EVO and possibly other tourneys that decide to only allow presets? If not, it would probably a good idea to consider doing so. Freeing up the 2222/3333 slots and catering to a presets-only customs tourneys should at least be considered in a separate format perhaps. All you might need to do is add the extra builds to the OP and put them in ( ).

So an example would be:

(1112)
1113
(1121)
1122
1123
(1131)
1132
(1133)
1211
1212

I suppose if it gets too messy you could color code it instead or put the extra builds at the bottom (ignoring numerical order).

 

[Raijinken]

So this was posted in the character impressions thread, and then we were reminded to go back on topic. I'd like to put in a few words here, and where better than, well, this thread?



Both of these are really wrong. Customs is by no means an acknowledgement that the "basic" game isn't enough, it's an acknowledgement that the game with customs is better. The comparison to Project M is ridiculous - Project M is not brawl. It's a questionably legal mod, just a step below a full rebuild of the engine from the ground up, and the reason it's facing setbacks is not "it's different", it's "it's of questionable legality and Nintendo doesn't want it around". You know what games have modularity? League. DOTA. CoD. Counterstrike. To a slightly lesser degree, Marvel vs. Capcom 2 and 3, and Street Fighter. You know what's interesting about all of those? They're all bigger than Smash. Or, in the case of the Marvel franchise, was. Hell, in the first four, it's as if you went into the match blind to what character your opponent picked and still didn't know all the details halfway through the match!

Smash 4 with customs is just as much Smash 4 as Smash 4 without customs. It's the same game. It's just different, and most of us would argue better, due to all investigation thus far indicating that customs lead to more low-tiers becoming more viable. A far more valid comparison would be a tournament running 11 or 13 stages, and a tournament running Omega Mode only. Same game, just one has more depth, more variety, more things to learn, and is better.





For Glory is not a good comparison point. See also: my comparison involving stagelists. We cannot use For Glory to determine our ruleset any more than we can use For Fun.



This makes a number of really bad assumptions.

Assumption 1: All custom specials are substantially different enough to need adapting to. This is just not true. Enough of them are similar enough that this number drops.
Assumption 2: All custom specials are similarly useful. Do you have to adapt to the worst layout a character has? Not likely. Nobody is going to play it. This significantly reduces your list. You think a Diddy is going to switch off of Monkey Flip? Not likely. Or that a Mii Brawler is particularly likely
Assumption 3: You have to learn the permutations. No, you have to learn the customs. At 12 per character, that clocks in at a whopping... 624. Still pretty substantial, but now pare away the ones like "Dashing Falcon Punch" which are self-explanatory; the ones like Abyss that are pretty much the same move; the ones like Exploding Popgun which are completely useless (I can't believe that move is a real thing)... How many are you left with? 50? 100? Is it still such an impossible, daunting task, considering you're already expected to understand the normals of every character in the cast as well? I bet that's a lot more than 624 moves!




@ Thinkaman didn't you have something to say on this subject? Of course, this isn't true. Being able to aggro your opponent when your opponent doesn't know what you're doing is far more rewarding than defensive play, because once they're in a bad position, their disadvantage is vastly improved. And of course, this is all theorysmash. None of this has played out in practice.



Currently, the tests people have done on the subject have been exceedingly positive. This careful, defensive play? Didn't happen. Horrible brokenness? So far, no dice.


Did anyone watch the prerelease E3 promotional? Fair bit of that going on there, too.

Customs adds a lot of new stuff to the game. A lot of new stuff that needs adapting to. Until people know the options and what's going on, they're going to derp around. They're going to get hit by stupid ****. They're gonna run into weird stuff. But the idea that it's a turnoff to the tournament scene is completely unfounded. Xanadu is on board. EVO might be on board. Most people who take the time to actually learn this stuff don't get ****ed by it. And you know what? If a few people want to ***** and moan about it, let 'em. And then tell them, "No Johns, Learn To Play". Because that's the crux of it. They need to learn to play. Not just whine because they didn't know that Falcon Punch now dashes forward. Not moan because they didn't DI something and died at 60 to the game's most prominent glass cannon. Learn. To. Play.


Seriously.

All of this. Love it.

I also like the air of "WTF was that". It's the exact same air all of my friends had when reacting to every newcomer in the game. And any of the changed veterans, i.e. Bowser. And by now, amongst the four of us who regular play with customs, those reactions are reserved specifically for gawking at windbox physics. Customs behave just as predictably as the rest of the game's movesets.

 

[Thinkaman]

Hey everybody:

PHANTOM STRIKE IS ZELDA'S BEST DOWN-B.

It charges way faster, does exceptionally high damage, beats dodges and air-dodges, and is safe on block.

It's a legit useful move that actually helps Zelda's issues a modest amount. (In ways the ranged Phantoms fall short)

Come at me.

Edit: Forgot to BOLD my BOLD statement.

 

[Lavani]

Not to mention it has bigger hitboxes too, which both improve its range and (it feels like) fix its whiffing problems!

It can't kill, but I don't think that's really a big deal with all its upsides.

 

[Thinkaman]

Not to mention it has bigger hitboxes too

Huh, you are right, it actually does. I thought it was just positioned better, but the hitboxes are actually one unit bigger.

 

[Rakurai]

I think Ness ought to have at least one set with Rolling PK Thunder.

While the slower speed does make it easier to gimp him and avoid the projectile, the sheer power of the projectile (KOs Bowser grounded at 180% on FD with no rage, but obviously can get kills much earlier if it intercepts an airborne target), coupled with the lack of a weak hit on PK Thunder 2 makes it viable, IMO. It also combos into itself at point blank range at low percents (For whatever that's worth), as the projectile will launch the victim without disappearing, then can be steered into them as they fly away.

I also think Wario's 1121 set ought to be dropped in favor of a 1213 set. Widescrew is honestly pretty terrible, as while the height it loses over the default normally isn't much, it becomes much more significant if you try to angle the move even slightly, and what little extra value it has offensively doesn't outweigh that. The Speeding Bike is amazing , as it can combo into the waft at kill percents, and is both easier to land and harder to punish due to its high speed.

 

[Raijinken]

On the subject of Wario, I've been experimenting with the Rose-scented Waft, and am having a hard time deciding if it's worth it over the other two or not. The damage racking value doesn't seem to outweigh the lack of kill power, but that could be because I'm testing it against a DK main, where I can rack damage easily and would perhaps do better with a punish to kill with.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

In April, I'll probably be running the first Smash 4 national tournament with customs legal. It's called Sandstorm down in Phoenix, AZ and we already have tons of good players confirmed going (including m2k and zero). We'll be utilizing this project but we NEED to have good presets. Im relying on you @ Amazing Ampharos to polish this as much as possible before April 18-19 because the whole country will be watching (and potentially using) your preset list in the near future.

 

[DunnoBro]

On the subject of Wario, I've been experimenting with the Rose-scented Waft, and am having a hard time deciding if it's worth it over the other two or not. The damage racking value doesn't seem to outweigh the lack of kill power, but that could be because I'm testing it against a DK main, where I can rack damage easily and would perhaps do better with a punish to kill with.

Match-up specific maybe?

Opportunity vs Reliability

I'd imagine against a character like sheik, fox, etc with very conservative moves and few opportunities to punish, rose might be better to keep around as a consistent threat to throw out. But against medium/high risk characters like DK, Ganon, etc with more dedicated or laggy motions, getting free kills off those seems better.

 

[BestTeaMaker]

So I'm making a ruleset for a local event I'll be hosting in a few weeks. Here's a draft I wrote for the section concerning custom movesets. I wanted to get some feedback to see if I did this right.

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Custom Movesets

· Every official setup must have the Amazing Ampharos’s Custom Moveset List installed before the event begins in slots 1-8

o The latest version of the List must be uploaded​

· If a player wants to use a custom moveset that is not listed in the Amazing Ampharos’s Custom Moveset List, they must notify the TO before the event begins

o This includes custom Mii Fighters​

· Players may only load or create a custom moveset to an official setup before a match begins

o The custom moveset must be named based on which moveset is used (i.e. 1111, 2222, 3333, etc…)

o The custom movesets must be placed on slots 9-10

o This includes custom Mii Fighters​

· Players are not allowed to load or create a custom movesets in between games

· Equipment is banned, and the usage of equipment in a match will result in an automatic disqualification

 

[Raijinken]

So I'm making a ruleset for a local event I'll be hosting in a few weeks. Here's a draft I wrote for the section concerning custom movesets. I wanted to get some feedback to see if I did this right.

---

Custom Movesets

· Every official setup must have the Amazing Ampharos’s Custom Moveset List installed before the event begins in slots 1-8

o The latest version of the List must be uploaded​

· If a player wants to use a custom moveset that is not listed in the Amazing Ampharos’s Custom Moveset List, they must notify the TO before the event begins

o This includes custom Mii Fighters​

· Players may only load or create a custom moveset to an official setup before a match begins

o The custom moveset must be named based on which moveset is used (i.e. 1111, 2222, 3333, etc…)

o The custom movesets must be placed on slots 9-10

o This includes custom Mii Fighters​

· Players are not allowed to load or create a custom movesets in between games

· Equipment is banned, and the usage of equipment in a match will result in an automatic disqualification

Slotting doesn't apply to Mii Fighters, so you may want to move that above "The custom movesets must be placed on slots 9-10" just for wording accuracy and to reduce any possible confusion.

You may also want to clarify that "load" means "put on the console" and not "swap loadouts", unless you meant swap loadouts, in which case I'm curious as to why that's a rule.