• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Official Standard Custom Moveset Project Initial Release

Status
Not open for further replies.

Amazing Ampharos

Balanced Brawl Designer
Writing Team
Joined
Jan 31, 2008
Messages
4,582
Location
Kansas City, MO
Well, here it is. This is the first release of a community wide project to make custom moves logistically practical for tournament play. To make it short, all you have to do is get one 3ds with everything unlocked (unlocking via PowerSaves Action Replay codes is fine), set up these movesets on that 3ds, and use that one 3ds to import these to every set-up you'll be using in the tournament. You do it once, it's done, and 99% of players will be able to quickly (as in "takes ~1 second") pick their moves in tournament. The remaining less than 1% of players can just 3ds import themselves on tournament day into the intentionally left open slots 9 and 10; players with specific, unusual preferences are almost guaranteed to either have a 3ds or at least know someone who does. Here's a video explaing the system in action:


Of course, this does rest on the premise of knowing the best builds for every character. I consulted with every last character board and got the top 6 builds per character. These are divided between "critical sets" which represent the important, super-necessary options that 90% of players will use and "supplemental sets" that are more for counterpicking or to suit less common preferences. Slots 7 and 8 are reserved for 2222 and 3333 to allow for players to take these set-ups home, hit the lab, and really figure out how a lot of these less popular moves work. This project will be revised in the future as custom preferences evolve, and allowing players in this early stage of the metagame to explore those moves is important. Without further adieu, here's the list of the top six sets per character that are suggested to be set up on each Wii U:

Format: Custom moves are numbered 1-3 as named by the game and are in the order neutral, side, up, down. For Rosalina, 2313 refers to Neutral-2 (Luma Warp), Side-3 (Shooting Star Bit), Up-1 (Launch Star), and Down-2 (Guardian Luma). Mii Fighters have a size indicator. Small indicates the smallest possible Mii, wide indicates a Mii of minimum height but maximum width, and normal indicates a Mii of even parameters on both (the system Miis named Guest A-F are this type of Mii).

Mario :4mario:

2333
1313
2313
1333
2223
2323

Luigi :4luigi:

1211
1312
1311
1231
2311
3311

Peach :4peach:

2212
2312
3212
3312
2211
2311

Bowser :4bowser:

1211
1311
3311
1213
1331
3211

Yoshi :4yoshi:

3111
3312
1112
2311
2312
1131

Rosalina & Luma :rosalina:

2311
2313
1311
1313
2211
2213

Bowser Jr. and Koopalings :4bowserjr: :4lemmy: :4larry: :4iggy: :4wendy: :4roy: :4ludwig: :4morton:

2211
2123
2121
2113
2223
2213

Wario :4wario:

1113
1211
1313
2311
1311
1121

Donkey Kong :4dk:

1131
1133
1231
1331
2131
3131

Diddy Kong :4diddy:

1123
3123
1311
1113
3111
1131

Mr. Game & Watch :4gaw:

3321
3331
1331
1321
3311
1311

Little Mac :4littlemac:

2111
2311
2113
2313
2211
2212

Link :4link:

1213
2213
1211
1113
2233
2313

Zelda :4zelda:

1212
1211
1213
1311
1312
3212

Sheik :4sheik:

1211
2211
1221
2221
3211
1213

Ganondorf :4ganondorf:

2322
2122
2121
2332
2132
2321

Toon Link :4tlink:

2133
2131
1131
2113
2123
2132

Samus :4samus:

2232
1212
1232
2212
2233
1213

Zero Suit Samus :4zss:

1311
1112
1312
2111
2311
2312

Pit :4pit:

3111
1113
3113
3112
1112
2111

Palutena :4palutena:

2322
2312
2321
1322
1312
1321
2332
1332

Marth :4marth:

3111
1113
1133
1121
3133
3131

Ike :4myfriends:

2222 (place in slot 1 instead of 7)
3222
2212
2232
3232
3211
2122

Robin :4robinm: :4robinf:

2111
3111
2311
3311
2113
3113

Duck Hunt :4duckhunt:

1133
1131
1113
3113
3112
1112

Kirby :4kirby:

3231
3233
3221
3132
3311
2231

King Dedede :4dedede:

3112
1122
3122
1312
2112
1322

Meta Knight :4metaknight:

1211
1311
3211
1212
3212
3111

Fox :4fox:

2122
2322
3322
1332
1321
3331

Falco :4falco:

1123
1122
1133
1132
3133
2133

Pikachu :4pikachu:

1311
2311
2312
1312
1321
1331

Charizard :4charizard:

1311
1331
1131
1231
1313
1113

Lucario :4lucario:

2111
3111
2211
1311
1121
1112

Jigglypuff :4jigglypuff:

1321
1322
1122
3121
3321
3131
Greninja :4greninja:

1112
3112
3111
1311
1312
3312

R.O.B. :4rob:

1132
1122
1112
1133
1123
1222

Ness :4ness:

1112
1311
1312
1121
1323
1321

Captain Falcon :4falcon:

2111
2113
2121
2112
3123
2122

Villager :4villager: :4villagerf:

1122
1322
2122
2322
1121
1112

Olimar and Alph :4olimar: :4alph:

1211
1311
1131
1112
1313
2211

Wii Fit Trainer :4wiifit: :4wiifitm:

2321
1321
2121
3121
3322
1121

Shulk :4shulk:

1113
1313
3113
3313
2113
2313

Dr. Mario :4drmario:

2312
1312
2322
2311
1311
2332

Dark Pit :4darkpit:

3111
1113
3113
3112
1112
2111

Lucina :4lucina:

3111
1113
1133
1121
3133
3131

Pac-Man :4pacman:

1112
1131
2132
2112
1132
2111

Mega Man :4megaman:

1311
1112
1113
1312
1313
1121

Sonic :4sonic:

1211
1221
1121
1311
2111
2211

Mii Brawler :4miibrawl:

1122Small
1132Small
1122Normal
1132Normal

Mii Swordfighter :4miisword:

1321Wide
1331Wide
1121Wide

Mii Gunner :4miigun:

3113Wide
3121Wide
3322Wide
3123Wide
3312Wide

This long list was compiled with the help of all of the character boards, but I had to process their thoughts and fill a few gaps. This was my thinking for how I handled each individual character:

Bowser:

I wanted to include a Flying Fortress build but felt it wasn’t very widely supported compared to other options. Would Bowsers prefer a Flying Fortress build over one of these others?

Bowser Jr.:

I didn't get a lot of response on this character. I used most of what I was given and tried to reason it out.

Captain Falcon:

This character's topic was chaos with almost no agreement on anything (and also generally low activity). I consulted a Falcon expert friend for this one who laid out that neutral-2, side-1, up-1 are what's really important with Falcon Kick being really debatable and that made most of these sets clear. I included a basic Falcon Strike set (for better recovery), a set designed to use Heavy Raptor Boost, and an insane Mighty Falcon Punch set predicated on the idea that you're throwing yourself off-stage using Mighty Falcon Punch as often as possible which I'm somehow doubt makes tactical sense but sounds really awesome and manly.

Charizard:

This was a relatively easy one; his topic laid it all out nice and clean.

Dark Pit:

I got very few responses, but I trust LancerStaff's judgment on Pit and clone.

Diddy Kong:

I got very few responses and honestly Diddy's customs seem extremely lackluster. I put the only two suggested sets as criticals and put each of his relatively decent by themselves options along with defaults on everything else as supplemental sets.

Donkey Kong:

Big O knows DK; I trust him here even though as a player I'd run down-2.

Dr.Mario:

This character generated very little discussion. I took away that 1312 and 2312 better be included but worked more with the general ideas I gathered from the Docs instead of specific sets given beyond that.

Duck Hunt:

There wasn't a lot of activity but was enough to work with. It's mostly combos of up-3 and down-3 that are important with n-3 having merit and d-2 apparently being useful in the ditto. I felt like side-3 was being slept on, but then I realized that if I was going to use side-3 I'd use 3333 which is available anyway in slot 8.


Fox:

Two users on the Fox boards had a great and vigorous debate and reached a lot of conclusions reflected here. The only change I made was subbing out their mutual least favorite of the six sets for a power build I believe a certain subset of players might pick and that I believe would probably prove useful in quads.

Falco:

This topic generated literally zero discussion, but my own exploration tells me that Falco's neutral and side customs pretty much suck while his custom versions of up and down are highly subjective but both nearly strict improvements over default. That makes 4/6 sets obvious, and I set him up with his probable general best build combined with the other two laser types to maximize options.

Ganon:

This one is hard because this character transparently has more than six good options. The big debate of the Ganons was Warlock Blade vs Warlock Thrust which seems like a very close decision with both sides having a lot of very reasonable support but democracy favoring Blade but all sides agreeing this is Ganon's least important special either way so sets shouldn't be split on this move. I went with the masses and included Blade, but this will almost definitely see substantial revision down the road.

Greninja:

This seems to be a consensus roughly? The Greninjas had what appeared to be straightforward moveset preferences.

Ike:

.san knows Ike so I'm going with what he said here. I did allow an irregularity since 2222 is Ike's general best set; it's being placed in slot 1 for fast selection as opposed to its usual place of slot 7.

Jigglypuff:

This was a very low discussion topic, but Jigglypuff's Sing variants are somehow even worse than the default so that makes her three parameter. Her two Rollout customs are very, very dubious as well while her side customs are actually meaningful and down-2 has clear use as a hard read in juggle situations. Down-3 seems obviously awful but probably less awful than all other options and thus gets one spot. I suspect in practice 90% of Jigglypuff mains will prefer 1111 and 90% of the remainder will prefer 1311.

King Dedede:

The DDD board made this very, very easy; I just had to copy and paste, and there was no doubt this was correct. Thanks guys.

Kirby:

This was a high activity topic with little agreement. I didn't help by being confused at which special was Hammer Bash and which was Hammer Flip for most of the topic (Flip is the name of default apparently, as non-intuitive as that is, and I'm pretty sure at least one of the Kirby players had this backwards too). Kirby is a rare case where all 12 moves seem to have some real utility and support, and that makes it hard to condense. It is clear a Jumping Inhale/Upper Cutter set needs to be #1 and that Wave Cutter, Ice Breath, and Giant Hammer all need to appear at some point. I tried to make as many Kirby players happy as possible; it was hard, and I expect to be yelled at for doing a bad job and told to change this which is okay (also don't read past the implicit inclusion of 3333, a set of seemingly real merit with Kirby).

Link:

He wasn't too tough; his three criticals were very obvious based on the discussion while a bit of my own ideas had to go into the supplementals but not too much. Basically Meteor Bombs and Boomerang are strongly favored by Links and both neutral-1 and neutral-2 are seen as important. I wanted to make sure to include a Whirling Leap variant as there's always a crowd that values recovery as the top priority. I kinda wanted to include Shocking Spin too, but 2222 exists and honestly Ripping Boomerang is probably more likely to actually get picked than Shocking Spin.

Little Mac:

This discussion did not generate much of anything! Access to side-3 and down-3 are clearly Mac's top priorities; side-3 lets him recover past massive hitboxes which is otherwise impossible for him, and down-3 is an anti-projectile move. All three neutral specials are nearly useless; version 2 seems to have niche recovery utility (like super niche) which is more than the other two provide. Otherwise I tried to include the recovery up special just in case someone wants it. 2111 offers extraordinarily little benefit over 1111, but it is probably Mac's general purpose best set.

Lucario:

Well, the only two critical sets are 2111 and 3111 and that's pretty clear. I included four more that I believe have the highest probability of being picked by someone; the consensus on the Lucario boards seems to be that as long as 2111 and 3111 are included the rest doesn't matter.

Lucina:

While the up-2 grab release stuff is not quite worthless, it's probably not enough to justify packing what is otherwise her clearly worst up special. The main three knobs here are 1 vs 3 on neutral, up, and down which is seven options which means we need to lose precisely one. I'm thinking 1131 is the least likely to be chosen; most people who want Dolphin Jump probably also want at least one of Dashing Assault or Iai Counter.

Luigi:

This is mostly what seemed to be preferred by the board and includes all of Luigi's notable options as far as I can tell.

Mario:

This mostly matches what the board was saying. I didn't end up having room for as Scalding FLUDD set, but I think more people will be happy with some form of a Shocking Cape edgeguarding set instead?

Marth:

This is a very identical choice to Lucina.

Mega Man:

1311 is the clear winner as Danger Wrap is well liked by many Mega Man players. I pretty much just copied Yink's set except replaced 3112 with 1211 as there were a lot of MMs who seemed to like Ice Slasher and usually preferred it without other customs. They seem to be doing this democratically and just weren't done though so this will be updated in the future with their results whenever that concludes.

Meta Knight:

Well, MKs don't like their customs other than side so 1211 and 1311 it is. I filled in the rest with stuff that seemed relatively useful to me. If anyone has anything better, feel free to suggest it.

Mii Brawler:

Miis are weird. I think it's clear that 1122 and 1132 are the favored ones here and then you have size. I think smallest is generally considered best but I think a lot of users of this character favor average size so why not both?

Mii Gunner:

This character is tricky since while the "wide" build is generally considered best on some stages adding a small amount of height to achieve a custom height lets you hit Battlefield's platforms. That custom height is stage specific and likely not universally favored so I'm just going to go pure wide here. He also has a lot of good moves for specials; I just ran with what Big O posted since it seemed to match the rest of the discussion nicely.

Mii Swordfighter:

Definitely the least loved Mii, Wide is also just obviously correct for it. 13X1 seems like the general best with up 1 not getting much love (I kinda like it, but I'm not going to push people to make Mii Swordfighters for my preference). I include a 1121 variant since that's maximum recovery which is an important option to present.

Mr. Game & Watch:

This topic generated very little discussion. I just went with my own well-honed G&W instincts but dropped the Judge 1 set (which is a pure gambling set) for another Trampoline Launch set since that custom is well loved.

Ness:

The Ness boards did this one for me; I respected their result.

Olimar:

This was not much of a discussion. It seems like the two side variants are overall the most important and most viable while up-1 vs up-3 seems like preference to me. I think down-1 is overall best but a reasonable case could be made for down-2 (it's a little disruption versus a little faster whistle recovery); I can't imagine taking down-3. Both neutral variations seem like huge risks, either removing your ability to safely pluck or destroying your pikmin's health. With these principles in mind, I've constructed this set of defaults for Olimar.

Pac-Man:

The choices here seem to be default fruit vs freaky fruit, default trampoline vs meteor trampoline (I thought the third choice here seemed good but no one suggested it), and default hydrant vs on-fire hydrant. As with Marth/Lucina, this ends up leaving Pac-Man with 7 choices and six slots. I'm going to leave out 2131 as it just seems unlikely someone will want both Freaky Fruit and Meteor Trampoline but not On-Fire Hydrant all at the same time compared to every other iteration I could leave out.

Palutena:

Ms. Custom Move herself has naturally a ton of possible variety. Since 2222 and 3333 are about enabling exploration which is distinctly not necessary on Palutena who has all specials unlocked by default, those (which are bad combos for her) will not be included giving her 8 sets. I tried to incorporate the feelings of the Palutena board; it wasn't the easiest thing.

Peach:

This didn't get a ton of discussion but 2212 was strongly supported. Variations with side-3 and neutral-3 seem like the most important branches, and that leaves two slots to be used on default down special variants which will definitely suit the fancy of certain Peach players.

Pikachu:

This didn't get much discussion, but it's obvious that 1311 is the main thing Pikachu players are going to want as most Pikachus seem to view side-3 as just obviously correct. Several other options, especially neutral-2 and down-2, are pretty nice though.

Pit:

As with Dark Pit, I trust LancerStaff with Pit... which is good as no one else responded to this topic.

R.O.B.:

Wow, this was almost a zero discussion one from which I gathered we don't like neutral variants and do like down variants. From toying around, I can really see the appeal in the up variants (including default for slower match-ups) but honestly don't see any appeal at all in the side variants. The default is a good reflector and good attacking move, and the customs that allegedly specialize in both seem worse at both and also lose the footsies benefit of being able to move around while doing them at will? I went with both custom gyros mixed with all three up specials to fill six slots all while knowing slip gyro is probably more niche than fire gyro so the fire gyro sets are the criticals.

Robin:

2111 and 3111 are obviously the criticals and tacking Fire Wall to both is pretty much universally agreed upon for two more sets. Nosferatu variants seem like the least dubious alterations (I do imagine some players will want Gliding Elwind, but most Robin players seem to agree that move is bad). There's some disagreement over how to handle it with the Thunder variants, but from what I can tell, Goetia is considerably more popular than Distant Nosferatu so I think I can please the most people by including 2113 and 3113 in the last two slots.

Rosalina & Luma:

The main two important parameters on her are Shooting Star Bit and Luma Warp. We have a vigorous discussion here and a lot of different views I tried to average. I feel honestly bad about having to handle this because I main Rosalina and thus have a big stake in the game here. I'm going to make sure to branch everything with both Gravitational Pull and Guardian Luma (this is purely match-up based which one you want), complete that matrix with the popular default Luma Shot, and add in Floaty Star Bit sets using the rest of the general goodstuff (I don't see any reasonable case not to use Luma Warp alongside Floaty Star Bit).

Samus:

The main set seems to be 2232 with default Charge Shot and Screw Attack as the main variants. That gives us four with the most supported remaining option (only supported remaining option?) being Mega Bomb which gets two sets to round Samus out.

Sheik:

1211 is a well supported set that definitely gets top nods and in fact the Sheiks seem in universal agreement on Gravity Grenade while *mostly* preferring defaults otherwise. I've done my best to encapsulate the popular variations on this within six sets.

Shulk:

The Shulk boards saw many interesting uses for all of Shulk's customs but ultimately decided mainstream was always default Air Slash and down-3 (Power Vision) while Back Slash Leap was the relatively least popular of the 3x3 matrix of interesting options on the other two specials.

Sonic:

This topic was slightly irritating, much like playing against Sonic. Either way, once we get past the fact that default Sonic is a thing people can select, the two customs that I think draw most people are Hammer Spin Dash and Double Spring with Burning Spin Dash and Stomp having the most love otherwise. I did my best to represent those options.

Toon Link:

I'm mostly trusting TLMSheikant, but I'm including one set with Short-Fuse Bombs and default Spin Attack for maximum recovery even if very, very risky recovery due to the raw power of Short-Fuse Bombs. I'm not sure if 2331 would be picked very often anyway?

Villager:

Extreme Balloon Trip and Timber Counter mostly dominate his options for those two moves and Villager further has a basic binary choice on the other two specials (Pocket vs Garden and Lloid Rocket vs Pushy Lloid) so only four configurations truly matter for him. I filled in the bottom two with single custom variations for people who like one of Villager's massive upgrade specials but not the other for some reason.

Wario:

This topic got zero responses so here I go off on my own in a dangerous sort of way. I'm pretty sure with Wario that Speeding Bike is mostly an upgrade over default and that default Corkscrew versus Corkscrew Leap is going to be the major choice with Inhaling Chomp versus default Chomp as another choice. I see no use in picking any Waft variants other than the smile it must bring to your face to select anything with the name "Rose Scented Waft". I filled in the last two slots with Burying Bike variants as, even if those aren't exactly great, they're better than anything else that would realistically go in those slots.

Wii Fit Trainer:

This one is tough. For the most part, Jumbo Hoop seems best (default doesn't suck and is good in a distinctly different way though!), and you have breathing type as a huge choice to make for which I ended up standardizing on 3 since I feel like breathing is a move you'll use very rarely since WFT has a neutral special almost always worth charging so you want to use this one rarely and get a lot out of it (this is me just guessing this will prove the most popular WFT down special in the long run). Then you have three very good and very unique neutral specials and an interesting three point choice on side special as well. There's just no way I'm going to fit all of this into six slots so, uh, I did my best?

Yoshi:

This was tough. There was clear demand for 3111 so it can't be ignored. In general Yoshi side-1 vs side-3 seems totally arbitrary as just about everyone agrees both are similarly garbage and almost never useful but somehow still better than side-2. I ended up leaving out Crushing Bomb because I just don't forsee it being taken very often in the end whereas I imagine the Lick variants will find a niche. I was sure to include a Timed Egg Throw variation as it has enough love, but I'm not sure if the variation I picked for Timed Egg Throw is going to be the most popular possible combination but I went with such a basic one mostly so any Yoshis who prefer default (and there are many) can pick this if they want just that move for a counterpick or something.

Zelda:

This one is easy. Almost all Zeldas agree that you don't take custom Nayru's or Farore's, that Din's is kinda bad but Flare seems overall relatively less awful than the other two, and that Phantom choice is totally arbitrary. With those three sets made, the rest don't really matter, but I threw in a Din's Blaze set and two Nayru's Passion sets since Nayru's Passion is a meaningful choice to make unlike the Din's choice.

Zero Suit Samus:

Last character! Freedom! Anyway, ZSS's main interesting custom is definitely side-3 but down-2 and neutral-2 get some love in the not very active ZSS discussion. I did my best to get this one right even as I was very eager just to be done.

This represents release 1.0, Winter/Spring 2015 edition. The next update will be in the summer. For those who used previous versions and want to update, a changelog is included below:

Change List:

Luigi:

Set 3 1112 -> 1311

Bowser Jr.:

Set 1: 1211 -> 2211
Set 2: 1213 -> 2123
Set 3: 1113 -> 2121
Set 5: 1221 -> 2223

Wario:

Set 1 1231 -> 1113
Set 3 2231 -> 1313
Set 4 2211 -> 2311
Set 6 1331 -> 1121

Mr. Game & Watch:

Set 5 3323 -> 3311

Little Mac:

Set 5 2123 -> 2211
Set 6 2121 -> 2212

Zelda:

Set 5 3111 -> 1312

Sheik:

Set 5 1212 -> 3211

Toon Link:

Set 5 2233 -> 2123
Set 6 2333 -> 2132

Marth:

Set 4 3113 -> 1121

Ike:

Set 6 3212 -> 3211

Duck Hunt:

Set 4 3131 -> 3113
Set 5 3133 -> 3112
Set 6 1132 -> 1112

Meta Knight:

Set 6 1221 -> 3111

Fox:

Set 4 1121 -> 1332

Falco:

Set 5 3123 -> 3133
Set 6 2123 -> 2133

Charizard:

Set 3 1112 -> 1131
Set 4 1312 -> 1231
Set 5 1332 -> 1313
Set 6 2311 -> 1113

Jigglypuff:

Set 1 1311 -> 1321
Set 2 1312 -> 1322
Set 3 1211 -> 1122
Set 4 1112 -> 3121
Set 5 1212 -> 3321
Set 6 1113 -> 3131

Captain Falcon:

Set 6 2211 -> 2122

Olimar:

Set 5 1312 -> 1313

Lucina:

Set 4 3113 -> 1121

Mega Man:

Set 5 3111 -> 1313
Set 6 1211 -> 1121

I'll end with major thanks to everyone who contributed. I can't individaully thank all of you because it was so many; there had to be over 100 people working on this which I believe shows the community's seriousness about custom moves and also the community's ability to come together and get stuff done when stuff needs done. I'm honored to have been able to head this kind of community effort, and out of respect for the work you've all done, I'll continue to work my hardest to make this the best, most useful system it can be.
 
Last edited:

MrEh

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 24, 2008
Messages
6,652
Location
Honolulu, HI
I wanted to include a Flying Fortress build but felt it wasn’t very widely supported compared to other options. Would Bowsers prefer a Flying Fortress build over one of these others?
Doubtful.

Flying Fortress is just exceptionally bad compared to default or even sliding fortress. The only reason people used that before was for Bowsercide cheese, but even that doesn't work properly anymore. There are some people that like Sliding Fortress though, but that's just the vocal minority. The merits to using regular Fortress outclass it hard.

Klaw is the only thing that no one really agrees on, but it's a playstyle choice more than anything else, so that makes sense why everyone likes something different.
 
Last edited:

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 30, 2004
Messages
7,878
Location
Woodstock, GA
NNID
LessThanPi
Love this project!

My only concern, and its a small one, is that once this list is in place even as the meta for characters change (say sheik's bouncing fish gets nerfed again and DownB2 or DownB3 becomes the obvious choice) is that it will be difficult to make large sweeping changes to the standard across the whole community. And with the admittedly long set up times (15 minutes per system) it gives people less intensives to make the change once they have already committed to it.

Maybe pushing this as a list that changes annually or semi annually will help make that clear from the get go. Something like "2015 Standard Custom Movesets" or "2015 Spring Custom Movesets and 2015 Fall Standard Movesets"
And from there even standardize (smashboards sponsored) teir lists, standard ruleset changes, reset player rankings, and other big changes that affect or reflect competitive play to correlate with it... Just a thought.

@SheikMains
Up2 but no Down3? So disappointed guys...
 

guedes the brawler

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 3, 2009
Messages
1,076
Location
Brazil. Sadly. Living here SUCKS!
NNID
Rafabrawl
one thing that shouldn't be enforced by this is that players that want to use sets not supported by the project shouldn't bring their own 3DSs as... they might not even have one. there should be one 3Ds at the venue with everything unlocked just in case these situations pop up.
 

Lozjam

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 26, 2014
Messages
2,840
Amazing job! This will make custom moves easy and fast in the competitive scene. I do think Ganondorf will definitely need some revision after some testing in the competitive scene, but overall, great job!
 

Kofu

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 2, 2009
Messages
4,609
Location
The caffeine-free state
NNID
Atoyont
3DS FC
1521-4492-7542
Kind of disappointed that Impatient Mechakoopa didn't make any of the Bowser Jr. lists. You lose the option to throw it at the opponent (which is kind of a big deal) but gain the ability to interrupt people at a distance. To me it kind of feels like a ROB gyro you don't have to charge and which you can't pick up afterward. But I didn't comment on the thread so I can't be too sad.
 
Last edited:

Meta651

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 25, 2009
Messages
205
Location
Chile
NNID
Meta651
Good to see that this is working, looks really good to make customs moves usable and considering this system is used by the majority of TO you just need to to pass the customs only once and after that only if some changes are made when the meta game changes. I hope to see this list evolves with the time and more tournaments use this to make customs legal.

Also if someone wants a specific move set is very probable that he made that set in a 3DS that also is very probable that he is carrying, also if there are some 3DS consoles that have every single custom move it can be used to make sets in the moment, maybe a set of rules need to be made so there not unnecessary time wasted.
 

Pazzo.

「Livin' On A Prayer」
Joined
Oct 3, 2012
Messages
9,187
Thank you for taking the time to compile this. I'm sure with more discussion, and a whole lot of arguing/debating, this could end up becoming an essential part of the Smash 4 scene.

Now, to the G&W boards!
 

chaosmasterro

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 20, 2009
Messages
130
Location
Georgia
NNID
chaosmasterro
When this becomes the standard I think this list of what custom moves are popular should be updated about every month or two. Gives people a chance to feel for the moveset and tidy up which moveset are still viable and used at the time.
 

Jabejazz

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 12, 2013
Messages
631
Location
:V
NNID
jabejazz
3DS FC
2079-8507-3496
Solid work. Thanks to everyone who contributed to the discussions, and particularly to Amazing Ampharos for taking the time to collect the data from every single board.

I'll be on my way to prepare my Wii U.
 

TheReflexWonder

Wonderful!
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 10, 2005
Messages
13,704
Location
Atlanta, GA
NNID
TheReflexWonder
3DS FC
2492-4449-2771
I know that I've talked about the potential of Wario's customs in a discussion thread there, and Down-B3 is definitely something important to consider.

Would definitely hold off on the idea of "Critical" and "Supplemental" sets if you haven't seen much discussion. You may have just missed important previous discussion.

EDIT: Boop:

I guess I can elaborate. I did a bunch of testing this morning and found a good bit of information.

Normal Neutral-B was super-buffed since Brawl--Less endlag, more range, more knockback, and the ability to continue moving forward in mid-air for a bit on start-up. Hard to beat based on its sheer versatility; even though the next option increases its range, I think the safety it provides in low endlag is a slightly better advantage than the added range.

Suction Neutral-B is pretty good, as the windbox is active as soon as the normal grab-box would be. Most people will mash out of the regular Chomp one or two hits in, so the damage lost is a largely negligible in most cases, and the extra range provided is substantial. That said, it becomes much more vulnerable to "roll behind Wario" and doesn't have the flexibility that normal Neutral-B does in getting to close your mouth early. More testing is required, but I could see its uses varying by playstyle/matchup, and it's great against people in the air/on a platform. Worth your time, most likely.

Garlic Neutral-B seems pretty awful outside of ledgeguarding, where it might very well shut down some characters' options on the ledge, period. Wario already has a lot of options on the ledge, though, and unless it is incredibly crippling to a specific opponent, I don't think it's worth losing your aerial command grab over.

Normal Forward-B is faster than it was in Brawl; it is harder to put on the stage, mostly requiring an edge and putting you offstage afteward, which is kind of risky to do. Recovery is less important with the knockback momentum glitch, but it's a nice balance between traditional recovery and offensive potential. Pales in comparison to the Heavy bike, but if you're not confident in the aforementioned glitch, this isn't a bad option.

Fast Forward-B increases your burst range for when people try to punish your landings or roll away in comparison to the other bikes, but the other bikes do well enough at that, IMO. The low bike HP means that throwing it around is much less potent (and I think that bike throwing will become an important part of his gameplay in Smash 4), and even though it's great for recovery, the knockback momentum glitch he has pretty much assures that Wario will never have to worry about recovery, so it's a moot point. The worst of the three, though it's still a good move, regardless; if anything, having less than 5 HP is great for building Waft by eating bike parts. Ideal for Smash Run, but not much else, I feel.

Heavy Forward-B is my personal favorite--Any bike hit resulting from the bike riding along the ground puts the opponent in the ground like the Pitfall item. I think the time spent grounded is relative to how much damage they've taken, so you can use it to set up follow-ups reasonably well. The shorter jump off the bike also speeds up your ability to follow up. The bike has loads of HP (seems to be about 40%, compare that to the normal bike's ~20%) and doesn't slide far if you jump off while on-stage, meaning you don't need a ledge or convenient platform to quickly get it lying around. A wheelie gives you a short burst of speed and will still ground people, even if it's just because the front tire hits someone on a platform! It is less useful for recovery (but still useful if you jump off immediately), but that, again, should be a moot point since Wario players need to use and abuse the knockback momentum glitch to recover. Honestly, I think this one is a no-brainer, though the regular Forward-B is still a great move in and of itself.

Normal Up-B was buffed since Brawl--A lot more range and fair knockback make it stand out as a good recovery option. Solid out-of-shield in a pinch, as well. No invincibility, and it's not especially fast, but it's a no-frills, good recovery move.

Flexible Up-B decreases the range and damage (9% instead of 13% because it gets fewer hits) a fair amount, but the real draw would be the fact that it becomes a more interesting out-of-shield option. Someone trying to space moves on your shield horizontally might get the LARIATOOOOO, and that's cool. If you're trying to recover vertically, always-always-always try to go straight upward, or close to, as you lose a -lot- of height going diagonally. This might be a matchup-specific one, but I kind of like it and encourage people to experiment with it.

Recovery Up-B is awful; regular Up-B is already pretty great for recovery, and losing the ability to steer it at all as well as the ability to hit people with it makes it very predictable and punishable. Never, ever use this move.

Normal Down-B takes almost two minutes to charge but has obscene knockback, dealing 28% when full and often killing at ~50% before the hit. Great way to decisively take a stock, no real drawbacks, just a great ace-in-the-hole.

Flower Down-B has a longer charge time than Turbo Down-B and only adds a bit of extra damage in comparison to normal Down-B through the Flower status in exchange for a lot of knockback. The worst of both worlds, and it only exists as a "your **** don't stink" joke as far as I can tell; stay away from it.

Copy/pasting my Turbo Down-B text: Turbo Waft does 19% at full while normal Waft does 28%, which is also not that significant a difference in terms of damage (where the latter used to do 42% in Brawl), but 30 seconds compared to ~1:51 definitely is. If you're landing Wafts in neutral often, you're either a mind reader or your opponent isn't that great at fighting Wario; it's all about getting them while they're vulnerable. Sure, you don't have to worry about "wasting Waft time" holding onto a full charge as much with the normal variant, but you don't feel the pressure of it just going to waste if you miss, either. Utility trumps raw power, I think, especially when it's still pretty powerful for how flexible it is.

tl;dr--There are two interesting choices within Neutral-B, Up-B, and Down-B. My personal favorite right now is Normal Neutral-B, Heavy Forward-B, Normal Up-B, and Turbo Down-B (1313).
 
Last edited:

BestTeaMaker

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 9, 2014
Messages
187
Location
Buies Creek, NC
NNID
BestTeaMaker
3DS FC
0345-0407-6977
Oh, so this is what the project was. I was a bit confused looking at that other thread, but now it's more clear.

I feel like that it's probably more...efficient to just unlock everything, but that's coming from a guy who has the patience to do that himself. I feel like marking something as critical or supplemental right now may be jumping the gun a bit. But kudos for a great job so far.
 

LancerStaff

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 28, 2014
Messages
8,118
Location
Buried under 990+ weapons
3DS FC
1504-5709-4054
Good work AA, and thanks for mentioning me. :p

I'm surprised how little activity the Pit topics had, though. I think most Pit players are Glory players like myself.
 

Davis-Lightheart

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 14, 2014
Messages
464
Alright, hoping this goes well. In the end, this system will do it's job if it allows people to be more comfortable with custom moves. So hopefully once Wii Us have them unlocked then we can get off the restrictions.
 

Piford

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
1,150
NNID
SuperZelda
This is great! I'll have to explore some of these critical sets. What if also assigned a default alt color per alternate costume. Not forcing players to be locked into that alt color, but just as another way to remember it. Like It may be easier to remember that you main Blue and Pink Mario rather than 1313 Mario. Since there are 8 sets its works out perfectly. Every set is assigned a color and named after their numbers. On a side note, its kinda sad that Celestial Firework isn't included in any sets, since I found it a great way to dodge (because of the invincibility frames) and punish simultaneously. But since all her moves are already unlocked it doesn't really matter.
 

ParanoidDrone

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
4,335
Location
Baton Rouge, LA
Liking the results. A few characters are missing sets that I'd be interested in using but that's what the blank slots are for.

You also have a small typo in the OP:

Format: Custom moves are numbered 1-3 as named by the game and are in the order neutral, side, up, down. For Rosalina, 2313 refers to Neutral-2 (Luma Warp), Side-3 (Shooting Star Bit), Up-1 (Launch Star), and Down-2 (Guardian Luma).
Guardian Luma is Down-3.
 

RESET Vao

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 15, 2010
Messages
394
Location
United Kingdom
NNID
RESET_Imp
I understand that custom moves are cool, or fun or whatever - In some cases they're just plain good I guess but looking at this realistically, it's a lot of effort to go to when organising events just to set them up. It's the kind of effort/time that makes not having custom movesets legal a more reliable option.

I'm all for flexibility but creating all these sets on each and every set up at a venue (remember, the setups are being brought by many different people), then having each and every setup inspected to see if no custom equipment is being used.

Or you could run default.

And what if your play is adjusted to whatever custom set for your character, to precise muscle memory, just for ONE setup at a venue to not have one of those custom moves or some other kind of problem. You'd either hold up the event or play worse for it.

Or you could run default.

Don't mind me being a negative nelly, I'd love to see custom movesets somehow become a workable process though to be honest what I've seen of them so far has been underwhelming.
 

TheReflexWonder

Wonderful!
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 10, 2005
Messages
13,704
Location
Atlanta, GA
NNID
TheReflexWonder
3DS FC
2492-4449-2771
Chances are, if you're the type to have your heart set on a custom set, you have it unlocked on your own 3DS.

As far as custom equipment is concerned, you can take a look at the equipment circle next to each character's name and make sure it's white to show that there's no equipment. In fact, this is easier to keep track of than someone putting the damage ratio at 1.1x or something similar.
 

Retlaf

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 9, 2007
Messages
140
Just want to say that this is a really great idea and I believe it really is the best possible way to incorporate custom movesets into competitive play. It solves a lot of problems with using customs (except for having to unlock everything, but we'll all do that eventually anyway). Like, you know what sets you're able to pick and practice with, you show up to the tourney, and you pick the one you want. No wasted time or drawback or anything. Setup can be done literally months in advance. Really elegant.

I only have a couple suggestions:
1) Don't update the standard too often (it would be bothersome to maintain our consoles).
2) When the standard is updated, include a list of changes from the previous standard to make updating as easy as possible. ie, a list of instructions like "For x character, Remove 3133, Add 3123" and so on. It would be less time consuming and error-prone than comparing two versions and finding the differences.
 

Gingerbread Man

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 22, 2009
Messages
1,214
This is exciting. Hopefully now I can convince my friends to start training with customs.

This project is incredibly well thought out and organized. Great job.
 

Davis-Lightheart

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 14, 2014
Messages
464
I understand that custom moves are cool, or fun or whatever - In some cases they're just plain good I guess but looking at this realistically, it's a lot of effort to go to when organising events just to set them up. It's the kind of effort/time that makes not having custom movesets legal a more reliable option.

I'm all for flexibility but creating all these sets on each and every set up at a venue (remember, the setups are being brought by many different people), then having each and every setup inspected to see if no custom equipment is being used.

Or you could run default.

And what if your play is adjusted to whatever custom set for your character, to precise muscle memory, just for ONE setup at a venue to not have one of those custom moves or some other kind of problem. You'd either hold up the event or play worse for it.

Or you could run default.

Don't mind me being a negative nelly, I'd love to see custom movesets somehow become a workable process though to be honest what I've seen of them so far has been underwhelming.
As long as it's checked before the tournament it will be fine. And if any unique person wants to bring their own set, the transfer screen shows the custom equipment and the stats, so they can't cheat that part. Also, the sets have an owner attached to them, it's easy to find players who do this and enact punishment on cheaters who think they're slick.
 
Last edited:

Unknownkid

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 4, 2014
Messages
1,073
On the behalf of the Kirby community, I like to apologize for the confusion. I was hoping for it to be more concise and theorycraft discussion but oh well. No one will be mad/yell at you for your choices. They are doable. Thank you for the hard work! We appreciate it!
 

Amazing Ampharos

Balanced Brawl Designer
Writing Team
Joined
Jan 31, 2008
Messages
4,582
Location
Kansas City, MO
The updating schedule is a big point of concern, and I'll make it very clear. This is a bit of a beta, and I know some characters are going to prove imperfect (hearing about a need for a Bowser Jr. down-2 and @ TheReflexWonder TheReflexWonder pretty much laid out a set of Wario positions completely contrary to how I had him set up, more issues like this will probably come up in the next few weeks). I needed to get something out ASAP so this can see use; v1 will be finalized around Christmas factoring in any mistakes I made (well in advance of the majors season) and will have a concise changelist provided for those who already set this up. After that it's a balance between saving the trouble of updating for everyone versus following metagame developments. Tenatively, I'm aiming for Jun. 1 for v2, but there will be some responsiveness to what acutally happens in the metagame in that timing.

As per the cheating issue, you can see equipment during 3ds import; there's literally no way to sneak anything on. Someone would have to either bring a set-up designed in advance to cheat (which is possible in every smash game and relies on the TO never catching on, a huge risk) or find a chance when no one is looking to tamper which is pretty hard in practice as tournament venues tend to be pretty crowded.

As per the colors issue, I did set up my 3ds that way as you probably saw in the video with Mario/Luigi/Rosalina. I could upload screenshots from Wii U of the custom screen with every character for another visual of how this is set up and to show those arbitrarily chosen colors (not that I really think this needs to be standardized, everyone has there own color preferences and be upset for little reason to take that away). It just seems like a lot of work on my end for something I'm not sure people would find useful; would people find it useful?

@But there is a Sheik down-3 set? It's set #6 on her.

I understand that custom moves are cool, or fun or whatever - In some cases they're just plain good I guess but looking at this realistically, it's a lot of effort to go to when organising events just to set them up. It's the kind of effort/time that makes not having custom movesets legal a more reliable option.

I'm all for flexibility but creating all these sets on each and every set up at a venue (remember, the setups are being brought by many different people), then having each and every setup inspected to see if no custom equipment is being used.

Or you could run default.

And what if your play is adjusted to whatever custom set for your character, to precise muscle memory, just for ONE setup at a venue to not have one of those custom moves or some other kind of problem. You'd either hold up the event or play worse for it.

Or you could run default.

Don't mind me being a negative nelly, I'd love to see custom movesets somehow become a workable process though to be honest what I've seen of them so far has been underwhelming.
I mean, you set up one 3ds and just run with it. One person in your entire scene has to have a fully unlocked 3ds. There is probably not one scene in this country with more than 10 guys involved that doesn't have a single fully unlocked 3ds between them or at least one guy who is pretty willing to finish the unlocking (or just use PowerSaves which cheats the unlocking and gives you everything instantly; user @ DunnoBro DunnoBro who lives in Maryland has actually promised to do this for anyone he either meets in person at tournament or for anyone willing to mail him their 3ds cart). That one guy then has to set this up on the 3ds, and from there, everyone can just go. This turns the workload on its head. The only instance in which you won't be able to make it happen is if literally your entire scene, every last member, is too apathetic to do this; one enthusiastic person carries it for everyone.

On tournament day, if someone brings an improperly built set-up, you just whip out the 3ds and import on the spot. It takes 13-14 minutes to set up a set-up from scratch which isn't super fast but isn't really slow either. Once that's done once ever, the set-up is good to go from then on (even if there's a project update, which will be by design not super common, it will be pretty fast to make the necessary changes and only take a few minutes). Since most people don't go out and buy new set-ups between events, it will quickly become the case that this will be a pretty rare thing to have to do; most players and TOs will be able from there to just play and not stress any of this at all.
 

Teh Sandwich

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 9, 2010
Messages
145
It seems pretty good in writing, but i can just see this turning into disaster at a tournament, especially a large one.

Just because everyone in the captain falcon boards likes those 6 sets, i might want something different.
Now, say i don't have a 3ds. The setup my match is scheduled on just has the character sets loaded on there, and not actually unlocked. What am i suppose to do? Go track down someone with a ds with everything unlocked, that will let me borrow it? what if there are multiple people with this problem at the same time?
 

DunnoBro

The Free-est
Joined
Nov 28, 2005
Messages
2,864
Location
College Park, MD
NNID
DunnoBro
As per the cheating issue, you can see equipment during 3ds import; there's literally no way to sneak anything on. Someone would have to either bring a set-up designed in advance to cheat (which is possible in every smash game and relies on the TO never catching on, a huge risk) or find a chance when no one is looking to tamper which is pretty hard in practice as tournament venues tend to be pretty crowded.
Not only this, but sets are tied to the names of the 3ds they come from so people can be held responsible even after the fact as long as they're not complete nobodies and SOMEONE at the event caught their 3ds name if it wasn't their gamertag.

So anyone who does this could not do it consistently at all.

It seems pretty good in writing, but i can just see this turning into disaster at a tournament, especially a large one.

Just because everyone in the captain falcon boards likes those 6 sets, i might want something different.
Now, say i don't have a 3ds. The setup my match is scheduled on just has the character sets loaded on there, and not actually unlocked. What am i suppose to do? Go track down someone with a ds with everything unlocked, that will let me borrow it? what if there are multiple people with this problem at the same time?

Look at the character boards, only for exceedingly few characters is the slot limit an issue. And this is including the entire sites, players who actually go to tournaments tend to have even -less- variety, not more.

As for getting the customs you need, yes. You'd likely need to contact the TO or someone with a 3ds. Personally I think contacting the TO beforehand to tell him you have an off-brand set would be helpful so he can either go install it on the Wii Us or assign you to play where it is installed.
 
Last edited:

ParanoidDrone

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 26, 2008
Messages
4,335
Location
Baton Rouge, LA
It seems pretty good in writing, but i can just see this turning into disaster at a tournament, especially a large one.

Just because everyone in the captain falcon boards likes those 6 sets, i might want something different.
Now, say i don't have a 3ds. The setup my match is scheduled on just has the character sets loaded on there, and not actually unlocked. What am i suppose to do? Go track down someone with a ds with everything unlocked, that will let me borrow it? what if there are multiple people with this problem at the same time?
Given that the sets will be known well in advance (they're being publiciized here, after all), you will also know in advance if your preferred set is not preloaded. Therefore, you can alert the TO when you first register and he can hook you up with the relevant people. You won't be left stranded at the start of your match unless you're just completely disorganized.
 

TheReflexWonder

Wonderful!
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 10, 2005
Messages
13,704
Location
Atlanta, GA
NNID
TheReflexWonder
3DS FC
2492-4449-2771
Not only this, but sets are tied to the names of the 3ds they come from so people can be held responsible even after the fact as long as they're not complete nobodies and SOMEONE at the event caught their 3ds name if it wasn't their gamertag.
That's a whole other can of worms, though. By that logic, a person could get framed by changing their 3DS name to whoever they want.
 

Neerb

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 15, 2013
Messages
132
3DS FC
3308-4587-7068
"Literally zero discussion" on Falco? Dang, I wish I was more active, I actually might have suggested some stuff if I knew better people hadn't already; he's one of my only characters I regularly use customs on.

On that note: will future changes/additions be discussed HERE, or will OP continue to keep tabs on every character board?
 
Last edited:

DunnoBro

The Free-est
Joined
Nov 28, 2005
Messages
2,864
Location
College Park, MD
NNID
DunnoBro
That's a whole other can of worms, though. By that logic, a person could get framed by changing their 3DS name to whoever they want.
I'd imagine that would require knowledge of another player's 3ds name, their character, and possibly get them to use that specific set on that specific set-up to get them in sufficient enough trouble to be worth the effort...

"Held responsible" doesn't have to mean "disqualified immediately"

And not only that, but having a blank equipment set for that specific character of theirs. Blank equipment sets aren't exactly easy to come by.
 
Last edited:

Amazing Ampharos

Balanced Brawl Designer
Writing Team
Joined
Jan 31, 2008
Messages
4,582
Location
Kansas City, MO
It seems pretty good in writing, but i can just see this turning into disaster at a tournament, especially a large one.

Just because everyone in the captain falcon boards likes those 6 sets, i might want something different.
Now, say i don't have a 3ds. The setup my match is scheduled on just has the character sets loaded on there, and not actually unlocked. What am i suppose to do? Go track down someone with a ds with everything unlocked, that will let me borrow it? what if there are multiple people with this problem at the same time?
I'd like to stress how exotic this is. You're in the 1% from the start if you don't want to use common builds, and most people with specific, unusual preferences will at least own the 3ds version (there's a very strong correlation there) so you're looking at a minority of a minority. It's few enough people that even at an APEX scale event you very well may never have two people with this particular problem at once. Honestly this system pretty much does say that player with unusual preferences are ultimately responsible for having access to a 3ds whether it's their own (and unlocking a single character's moves on the 3ds version takes under an hour so it's easy if you just want them for your main) or one they can borrow from a crewmate/tournament staff. Pragmatically, it's not going to cause issues, and holding up easy, fast custom moves that almost the entire community wants over such a tiny minority that it might not even exist doesn't seem like the best road.

"Literally zero discussion" on Falco? Dang, I wish I was more active, I actually might have suggested some stuff if I knew better people hadn't already; he's one of my only characters I regularly use customs on.

On that note: will future changes/additions be discussed HERE, or will OP continue to keep tabs on every character board?
I'll be keeping track of this topic religiously, but I will be going back to all of the character boards before v1 to see input there (I pretty much have to if for nothing else but to respect the ongoing process of boards like the Mega Man board). I'd say that if you just want to comment "AA you screwed up my character and here's how" like Reflex did for Wario, let me know here, but if there's an evolving discussion on a character and debate to be had, it would go best on the individual board.
 
Last edited:

---

鉄腕
Super Moderator
BRoomer
Joined
Jan 27, 2008
Messages
13,519
Location
Michigan
NNID
TripleDash
3DS FC
1719-3728-6991
Switch FC
SW-1574-3686-1211
Mega Man :4megaman:

Critical Sets:

1311
1112
1113

Supplemental Sets:

1312
3111
1211

Mega Man:

1311 is the clear winner as Danger Wrap is well liked by many Mega Man players. I pretty much just copied Yink's set except replaced 3112 with 1211 as there were a lot of MMs who seemed to like Ice Slasher and usually preferred it without other customs. They seem to be doing this democratically and just weren't done though so this will be updated in the future with their results whenever that concludes.
??? I don't know anyone who actually uses Ice Slasher. Pretty much everyone on the board agrees that it's garbage. I think there's something wrong there.

I'll have to ask everyone, either way 1311 is the only set that's a must.
 

Amazing Ampharos

Balanced Brawl Designer
Writing Team
Joined
Jan 31, 2008
Messages
4,582
Location
Kansas City, MO
??? I don't know anyone who actually uses Ice Slasher. Pretty much everyone on the board agrees that it's garbage. I think there's something wrong there.

I'll have to ask everyone, either way 1311 is the only set that's a must.
So, I went back. One guy supported Ice Slasher and the post directly above his had a Tornado Hold build that, in the middle of the night while I was working on this, I read a Tornado Hold set as an Ice Slasher set (121X vs 112X) and somehow interpreted this as a moving in glacier of Ice Slasher support. Oops, that was a screw-up on my part, and I should have made set 6 a Tornado Hold set instead of an Ice Slasher set. I know the MM board wasn't done yet though, and I'll be going back in the planned Chrismas update to fix MM up (MM was near the very top of my list of characters I knew I wasn't going to get quite right with what I had making this though I think what I put up for him is decent).
 

Gunla

It's my bit, you see.
Administrator
BRoomer
Writing Team
Joined
Aug 18, 2013
Messages
9,068
Location
Iowa
Excellent choices on the Greninja side imo. You got the major ones (1112, 3111, 1311) and some experimental Shadow Dash sets as well, focusing on Greninja's most used customs (Side 3, Neutral 3, Down 2).

The omission of what's not present is a good choice, because mainly they're worse options (like High-Capacity Pump) or the deviations are not very viable (Delayed Substitute).

While we may have not given a finalization, I'll send your sets to them and check in.
 
Last edited:

Teh Sandwich

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 9, 2010
Messages
145
Given that the sets will be known well in advance (they're being publiciized here, after all), you will also know in advance if your preferred set is not preloaded. Therefore, you can alert the TO when you first register and he can hook you up with the relevant people. You won't be left stranded at the start of your match unless you're just completely disorganized.
So you're saying that, before the tournament starts, the TO needs to make sure that everyone has their particular setup loaded up on every wii? This could really delay start time. Not only that, but this could easily fill the 2 open slots on each character.. Thus back to the same problem i said before.
 

---

鉄腕
Super Moderator
BRoomer
Joined
Jan 27, 2008
Messages
13,519
Location
Michigan
NNID
TripleDash
3DS FC
1719-3728-6991
Switch FC
SW-1574-3686-1211
So, I went back. One guy supported Ice Slasher and the post directly above his had a Tornado Hold build that, in the middle of the night while I was working on this, I read a Tornado Hold set as an Ice Slasher set (121X vs 112X) and somehow interpreted this as a moving in glacier of Ice Slasher support. Oops, that was a screw-up on my part, and I should have made set 6 a Tornado Hold set instead of an Ice Slasher set. I know the MM board wasn't done yet though, and I'll be going back in the planned Chrismas update to fix MM up (MM was near the very top of my list of characters I knew I wasn't going to get quite right with what I had making this though I think what I put up for him is decent).
No problem. When I get the time I'll try to make a tally to help out.

I myself still have to vote (though I really only use 1311). :p
 

Teh Sandwich

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 9, 2010
Messages
145
Just want to add that i don't mean to be so negative towards the subject. I like the idea of custom moves, and think they can really make this game interesting. I just know smash tournaments take a very long time to begin with, and even adding a minute or 2 to the start of each match is something you need to be very careful with.
 

19_

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 28, 2014
Messages
297
Location
South Jersey
NNID
19sean
3DS FC
3239-4949-6616
I noticed now that more people have started to notice our work since this thread has been made. Great to see it too because we are also having some great constructive criticism as well in terms of what sets should be ran.

So you're saying that, before the tournament starts, the TO needs to make sure that everyone has their particular setup loaded up on every wii? This could really delay start time. Not only that, but this could easily fill the 2 open slots on each character.. Thus back to the same problem i said before.
For larger scale tournaments, I agree we would have a problem with this. For that reason, I'm hoping that a way to create save data is made sooner rather than later. Otherwise this is great for people who TO on a small scale. This is just a project that is just picking up momentum so doing this is more or less just getting the word out.

Just want to add that i don't mean to be so negative towards the subject. I like the idea of custom moves, and think they can really make this game interesting. I just know smash tournaments take a very long time to begin with, and even adding a minute or 2 to the start of each match is something you need to be very careful with.
I honestly thank you for the concern.
 

Amazing Ampharos

Balanced Brawl Designer
Writing Team
Joined
Jan 31, 2008
Messages
4,582
Location
Kansas City, MO
For larger scale tournaments, I agree we would have a problem with this. For that reason, I'm hoping that a way to create save data is made sooner rather than later. Otherwise this is great for people who TO on a small scale. This is just a project that is just picking up momentum so doing this is more or less just getting the word out.
This is actually made with large scale TOs in mind. While smaller scale TOs mostly just ask people to bring set-ups and use what they get whatever that may be, larger scale TOs arrange their set-ups in advance. It's necessary; you can't have APEX and have only 4 guys bring set-ups and try to run a several hundred man tournament on six Wii Us, and many times large scale events have sponsors who specifically help with this (that's EVO's mode of operation I know). While these large scale TOs don't have a lot of time to grind out 20 hours of single player per set-up, they have an enhanced ability to ensure the integrity of every set-up and this system should be very easy for them to use. Likewise, they're the ones with the most to lose adding a minute or two per set, and that's why this system is designed to add an average of 2 seconds to each set instead of that much time; the whole point of the lists is so that time is very rarely added (and when it is, it will be 40 seconds and NOT 1-2 minutes).

Honestly even at mid level events where things can be more chaotic, this isn't that tough. Like let's say we're running a Midwest regional; I'm very familiar with these events. If I were TOing it, I'd still be talking to notables in the surrounding localities about bringing set-ups since I want to make sure we aren't holding some kind of Midwest Circuit event on 2 Wii Us. Generally each scene brings a carload of people or two as well as a few set-ups, and there are people in each of these scenes who make sure the set-ups are fine. Like if I get 3 Wii Us from Saint Louis that are totally screwed up and don't have this set up and I have to hustle before the tournament to get them ready, I go over to Thinkaman and give him a real hard time since it was his implicit job to make sure that didn't happen just like if they brought set-ups missing characters and stages (and this is actually easier to fix than that problem!). Even then though, that's a problem once (if it even happens), and the next event when Saint Louis brings their set-ups they'll still have this on them and it will be no problem. Setting this up is fast, easy, and one time as far as problems go. That's what makes this powerful.
 

ChemicalExperiment

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 1, 2014
Messages
40
NNID
Scienceboy0
I said it on the original thread, and I'll say it again. This seems like a great way to introduce customs, and is suprisingly easy to grasp even for those who aren't very deep into the competitive scene. I would contribute to some of the threads, but 1.) I haven't unlocked all the customs even for my mains. And 2.) I'm fairly new to competitive, so I'd probably just taint the waters.

The only problem I see is when a TO hasn't updated their sets, leaving out some new build everyone wants to use. However, I don't think this would happen often, and it would be more of the TO's fault than the system itself.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom