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I know that. But making their biggest bandwagon argument harder to use it good, right?
When I look at things from a Stale Moves perspective, it's honestly not that bad. Free hits that keep you in control are always useful. It's not about the damage but rather forcing people to play on your terms and refreshing other moves in the process. G&W U-air windbox similarly is amazingly useful.
This is just about the most depressing thing I've read in a while; if most of your players want customs, there's no reason to ban them and the pro-ban side just needs to be told "no johns" over and over again. Hopefully your position will be helped by the favorable national conditions?Only a few players here think that. Sadly, those very players eventually used Sheik as a (poor) argument to get customs banned here. It was fun while it lasted, but customs are now disallowed at our monthly tournaments.
While most of our community did enjoy customs, the vocal minority eventually started a huge argument against them. While a few of the arguments were fair, most of them were just the typical scrubby nonsense. However, the vocal minority included several high ranking players, so the anti-customs circlejerking was incredibly strong. Customs were eventually banned just to appease said vocal minority.
I'll always remain a strong advocate for customs, and I am proud that the Hawaii community tried customs from the start. I'm just very disappointed that it turned out this way.
Sadly, I don't call the shots over here. If I did, I would have just told everyone to stop being babies and deal with it.
The project sets are mostly optimized for singles, but doubles should be fine. It seems like there being a lot of bugs like that Olimar one is unlikely; that bug relies on perhaps the most obscure interaction and one of the few custom only situations to be team centric.
I don't know about that. It kinda takes a dump on characters that rely on their reflector moves a lot. Even if they rely on it in a non-defensive manner, all it takes is for one lucky/unlucky situation and the game is pretty much gone.
It's kind of a floodgate mentality. For instance, if you keep the Smash4 precedent at "No bans, period", then there are no bans, period. The moment you establish precedent, it gives opponents a foothold to eat into existing rules.
Gravitational Pull and Pocket against non-projectilers. Ganondorf's utilt.
I don't believe people subscribe to that logic, and the ones that do would just be overwhelmed by the number of those who don't. It just sounds like fear-mongering to me. The whole "slippery slope" idea is true in some situations, but not in one like this. Here we have something that pretty much negates options for some characters in a matchup, and it's totally unintended.
The only characters that can accidentally trigger this if they use the proper custom specials is Rob, for a tiny 4 frame window where his offensive side B reflects anyway, and Ness, possibly, but it's extremely unlikely. And Fox can't remove his reflector entirely, but he doesn't really run up to people and shine them in this game so he should be fine.
What about Zelda or Mario? (Not sure if it works with them personally but I'm assuming that it does). And I'd argue that 4 frames can still be significant, depending on the circumstances. It would be total BS to lose to it either way. There's no way to argue around that fact, and why subject people to the possibility just for one custom move?
They both can select Custom Specials that are unable to reflect projectiles, and thus unable to trigger this.
I don't really see that as a valid argument. A bunch of scrubs arguing isn't going to matter to anyone important. It's not a reason to avoid a simple solution to a fairly simple problem.
Yeah but what if they wanted to use those moves? You can't just have a character with a move that totally negates the moves of several others. That's not reasonable.
I sympathize, but a line regarding bugs logically has to be drawn somewhere.
This is why, if anything is banned (which I'm not opposed to but not in favor of either), it has to be for a clear and unambiguous criteria:
You're absolutely banning Olimar from using order tackle, which is, yknow, one of Olimar's moves, that's not reasonable.
If the Hawaii scene is anything to go by, there's a precedent of vocal scrubs ruining the game for everyone.
Is there really anyone still hot about Piston Punch? Dapuffster is really the only one using it, and even he stopped in favor of the other.
Peach's default Up Special can have the same effect as Piston Punch. If Piston Punch is banned, should Peach's default Up Special be banned to?
Add ZSS and Ike's first-hit-only Uspecials (and I think I've heard Dr. Mario's as well?) to that list; I'm sure there are a ton more that I'm unaware of as well.
There are multiple moves that have this effect (Screw Attack is another one). I assume Piston Punch is a problem because it's the easiest one to trigger.
Little Mac has a custom Up-Special that kills at 60% as well, but that's never had anyone even mention a ban, as no matter how cheap it may be, it's not ban-worthy, and neither are any of these attacks really due to their riskiness.
Shiek invalidating half the cast with a chain throw in Melee is fine, but Olimar encouraging some characters to change their specials isn't? Give me a break. Many of these reflectors require strict timing on both sides, and all the reflectors there that can't be held are literally impossible to do on accident.
Eh, I don't play Melee or watch it so the comparison doesn't mean much to me. I suppose I should also mention I'm still on the fence about the glitch. It causes an obvious problem but has an obvious answer too. It's a much bigger problem in doubles. My biggest issue with it is how it makes Olimar a much larger threat than he should be. People will be reluctant to reflect any of his attacks when they shouldn't be. That doesn't change the answer of 'don't reflect' but the answer isn't pretty :/
Either way, Olimar is still not going to be used at all. this isn't even an issue in Singles because it's definitionally a gimmick. Olimar is still a much smaller threat than he should be, since 3DS version ingrained it into almost everyone's minds that he sucks, and is unviable at tournaments.
Rosalina has problems like that character -wide. Not getting into that discussion. And that move doesn't cost you the game for messing up with It. Not comparable.I can confirm this bug is present on the 3DS 1.0.5 version.
Well either way, this glitch doesn't need banning, in any format, until it shows that it's really bad. if you don't believe in that, the only other thing to believe in is guilty until proven innocent. With that logic, each character, stage and feature should be banned until they prove themselves worthy. And that sort of ruleset is beyond garbage.
I agree that it is a gimmick and it's a much bigger issue for doubles than for singles. I mean, this glitch requires customs to be on, an Oli, a character with a reflector and convenient timing of both the reflector and Tackle Order. That being said, all of that IS possible in a match. As for how people feel about Oli, I can see Dabuz's placement in APEX being some leverage, not too much though since Rosa was used much more and if this glitch gets more well know then maybe he'll see more use too. Good chance that won't happen though since this only works on Reflector characters and not Diddy/Sheik/Rosa.
That really sucks, but I think in the near future, with more and more locals adopting customs (and nationals slowly adopting/considering them) you'd be able to scare your region into allowing them again so players don't get "left behind".
