Official Standard Custom Moveset Project Initial Release

[Rehnquist]

I'd find it hilarious if the bug fix was to remove the projectile property labeling off of pikman making them immune to reflectors.

I'm lost at what exactly is being argued here, because it seems to boil down to is armchair rule making looking to ban on theoretical grounds with reasons applied which don't create clear lines that prevents banning floods, and the other side looking to see how it plays out to gather evidence. Needless to say, trial and error creates better rule systems than armchairing it.

No evidence to ban in singles at all (not saying anyone is advocating a singles ban), you'd have to suffer from ignorance to have this set up on you. If pikman weren't projectiles, you wouldn't be reflecting anyways, and having the ability to reflect everything except tilts and grabs is still huge. The reflecting player literally determines if this happens or not based on using his power multiplier reflector or not, which already shuts down heavy projectile based characters.

In doubles, I don't see why the same resolution isn't applied to pacman jumps, and oil panic fills (non customs). It has been up to hosts to set up the ground rules. I don't see why olimar is so shocking to the system when the system we currently have has institutions in place which already handles this (aka host discretion) without overarching actions. Hosts learn by trial and error.

So really the debate is armcharing vs experiential logic as it applies to rule sets, because as it stands, there is little evidence to validate any particular hard bans, and the burden of proof is on those who advocate a ban.

edit:

dam by the time it took me to type this it seems I'm now just apart of the chorus, oh well, glad to see people agree.

 

[Octagon]

by the time it took me to type this it seems I'm now just apart of the chorus, oh well, glad to see people agree.

Ikr, this thread is insanely popular

 

[warriorman222]

I agree that it is a gimmick and it's a much bigger issue for doubles than for singles. I mean, this glitch requires customs to be on, an Oli, a character with a reflector and convenient timing of both the reflector and Tackle Order. That being said, all of that IS possible in a match. As for how people feel about Oli, I can see Dabuz's placement in APEX being some leverage, not too much though since Rosa was used much more and if this glitch gets more well know then maybe he'll see more use too. Good chance that won't happen though since this only works on Reflector characters and not Diddy/Sheik/Rosa.

Rambling aside, as I said before if I had to give a definite answer I'd say ban Tackle Order only on teams and only if used with a teammate with a reflector. Should be left alone in singles until it proves it's a larger problem.

This is what I would do. I would also wait and see in Doubles, too: Everyone thought Mega Metagross in Smogon was gonna be broken, and wanted to ban it before ORAS even came out. Guess what: It's still OU.

 

[popsofctown]

[on gravity pull vs. mechakoopa]Rosalina has problems like that character -wide. Not getting into that discussion. And that move doesn't cost you the game for messing up with It. Not comparable.

Make it a big mechakoopa and have Rosalina throw it back for the double explosion glitch and that's a low% killing hitbox that absolutely could cost you the game just as much in a two stock format. But the difference is that Gravity Pull is a default move, and Order Tackle is nondefault, isn't it? 1112 Olimar and 1113 Roy are Sneetches without Stars on their bellies, but 1111 Rosalina, 1111 Falco, and 1111 Mario are sneetches with stars on their bellies. So if Rosalina invalidates Roy's move it's ok, but Olimar can't invalidate Falco's move.

 

[thehard]

Make it a big mechakoopa and have Rosalina throw it back for the double explosion glitch and that's a low% killing hitbox that absolutely could cost you the game just as much in a two stock format. But the difference is that Gravity Pull is a default move, and Order Tackle is nondefault, isn't it? 1112 Olimar and 1113 Roy are Sneetches without Stars on their bellies, but 1111 Rosalina, 1111 Falco, and 1111 Mario are sneetches with stars on their bellies. So if Rosalina invalidates Roy's move it's ok, but Olimar can't invalidate Falco's move.

What's the double explosion glitch?

 

[popsofctown]

What's the double explosion glitch?

Pretty sure it's still in the current build, if the timer expires and creates an explosion and collision creates an explosion, the explosions coincide into a megahitbox.

 

[Raijinken]

That makes no sense

There's a hierarchy of "so good it's banned > so good it's usable > not good enough to be usable".
Something can't be Uber tier and Never Used tier at the same time.

Ice Climbers in Melee and Brawl were basically uber-never-used.

No one used them, except the very small handful of players who more or less exclusively used them. And in doing so, held the threat of 0-death over the majority (if not the entire) of the viable cast.

Factoring actual usage rates into power is a tricky thing to do. It's why I like Dota's "tier" analysis where it's purely based on draft/ban rate in recorded pro matches. No one cares if Meepo is an extremely good hero on the right team composition in the hands of a sufficiently skilled player, he's still meh-tier, respect-ban at best, while Axe and Juggernaut are the 100% pick/ban heroes.

 

[popsofctown]

Ice Climbers in Melee and Brawl were basically uber-never-used.

No one used them, except the very small handful of players who more or less exclusively used them. And in doing so, held the threat of 0-death over the majority (if not the entire) of the viable cast.

Factoring actual usage rates into power is a tricky thing to do. It's why I like Dota's "tier" analysis where it's purely based on draft/ban rate in recorded pro matches. No one cares if Meepo is an extremely good hero on the right team composition in the hands of a sufficiently skilled player, he's still meh-tier, respect-ban at best, while Axe and Juggernaut are the 100% pick/ban heroes.

There can be a disconnect between something's popularity and its power level if it's strong, but not broken. You won't observe much disconnect when it's broken. Ice Climbers isn't broken in Brawl, certainly not on NA rulesets, because MK is a strong counter that can avoid getting grabbed.

There were tons of people that were playing what they perceived as the strongest strategy in the game, and those two parkas that lose to MK were never that perception

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I don't know about that. It kinda takes a dump on characters that rely on their reflector moves a lot. Even if they rely on it in a non-defensive manner, all it takes is for one lucky/unlucky situation and the game is pretty much gone.

Edit: I mean seriously, what kind of fighting game has a matchup that completely negates a character from using some of their moves? That's hardly fair.

Have you seen Dhalsim-T.Hawk? Those matchups are ****ing gross. Dhalsim basically invalidates all of Hawk's options from the get-go.

 

[Peabnut Bubber]

The current six Mega Man sets are pretty inefficient. For reference, these are the current six:

1311
1112
1113
1312
1313
1121

Okay, so we have one set dedicated entirely to Plant Barrier (1113) and another set just for Tornado Hold (1121). We also don't have a single Beat set OR an Ice Slasher set, which have gotten a bit of attention recently. The differences between Leaf Shield and Plant Barrier rarely affect a match, and for the most part these two are interchangeable. I haven't seen anyone really advocate the use of Tornado Hold at all. I suggest a list like this:

1312
1313
1333
1213
1112
1132

This gives us:
3 Danger Wrap sets, the same amount as the current list.
1 Ice Slasher set, as opposed to 0.
2 Beat sets, as opposed to 0.
3 Skull Barrier sets, as opposed to 2.

 

[Raijinken]

The current six Mega Man sets are pretty inefficient. For reference, these are the current six:

1311
1112
1113
1312
1313
1121

Okay, so we have one set dedicated entirely to Plant Barrier (1113) and another set just for Tornado Hold (1121). We also don't have a single Beat set OR an Ice Slasher set, which have gotten a bit of attention recently. The differences between Leaf Shield and Plant Barrier rarely affect a match, and for the most part these two are interchangeable. I haven't seen anyone really advocate the use of Tornado Hold at all. I suggest a list like this:

1312
1313
1333
1213
1112
1132

This gives us:
3 Danger Wrap sets, the same amount as the current list.
1 Ice Slasher set, as opposed to 0.
2 Beat sets, as opposed to 0.
3 Skull Barrier sets, as opposed to 2.

I'm personally enjoying using Beat lately, but the general slowness of the recovery make me wonder if it's worth having more than one set. Beat is very easy to edgeguard. The Tornado Hold is far less so, but I've not experimented with it enough to have a strong judgement on the matter. Rush's anti-spike properties are very hard to argue with on stages that don't necessitate long horizontal recoveries, though.

I'm all for trashing the Leaf Shield, though.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Is there really anyone still hot about Piston Punch? Dapuffster is really the only one using it, and even he stopped in favor of the other.
Still far too good though.

To further expand on this, I haven't used Piston Punch in tournament since November on the 3ds. It's nothing compared to Helicopter Kick and you will not beat me if you try to use the move against me on a stage that isn't Halberd.

 

[Splash Damage]

To further expand on this, I haven't used Piston Punch in tournament since November on the 3ds. It's nothing compared to Helicopter Kick and you will not beat me if you try to use the move against me on a stage that isn't Halberd.

Yeah, I thought it was something like that. Helicopter kick does seem to have more utility and recovery options.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I made a topic on the Rosalina boards about coming up with additional sets but half the replies were "I like 2311 the best" which is nothing new. Neutral 3 and Up 2 both got mentions, however, so a set with those may be worth considering. (3x2x)

Given the lack of discussion, I referred back to my old poll topic. Outside the 6 sets already included in the project, here are the rest that were poll options, in descending order of votes received:

2111
2333
2312
1211
1213
1113
2113

The interesting thing about Rosalina's current sets is that it's basically 3 sets (231x, 131x, 221x) with two down special options in Gravitational Pull and Guardian Luma. Since Gravitational Pull is straight up worthless against anyone without a projectile we had decided it was worth it to double dip on sets with just the down special for variance. But with some of these more niche sets I wonder if it may be better to decide if it's tailored more for projectile or melee characters and pick the down special based on that.

 

[MajorMajora]

The current six Mega Man sets are pretty inefficient. For reference, these are the current six:

1311
1112
1113
1312
1313
1121

Okay, so we have one set dedicated entirely to Plant Barrier (1113) and another set just for Tornado Hold (1121). We also don't have a single Beat set OR an Ice Slasher set, which have gotten a bit of attention recently. The differences between Leaf Shield and Plant Barrier rarely affect a match, and for the most part these two are interchangeable. I haven't seen anyone really advocate the use of Tornado Hold at all. I suggest a list like this:

1312
1313
1333
1213
1112
1132

This gives us:
3 Danger Wrap sets, the same amount as the current list.
1 Ice Slasher set, as opposed to 0.
2 Beat sets, as opposed to 0.
3 Skull Barrier sets, as opposed to 2.

I think a good, general process is not to do things relative to their default move set, but to their optimal. Kind of like what you did.

So either 1312 or 1313 are his optimal move sets, MU dependent. What variations on each of these will people likely want to use? We only have enough room for 2 adjustments, as the math works out.

I don't know much so I'm just going to use conjecture here. Lets say that the 2 adjustments we want to make are these: default side B and Beat. Therefore, the 6 customs we go with are this:

1312
1112
1332
1313
1113
1333

There are 2 different 'default' optimal setups, and each one has 2 variations on it, giving us our 6 sets.

I personally believe we should replace 2222 and 3333 with more actual sets: no one will use them, and even if they did we could just have 2222 or 3333 as one of the sets for that one character. That would leave us with more room to have more useful sets.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I don’t think the D3 boards are gonna budge on our custom presets. @Lavani, what do you think?

Smooth Criminal

 

[Anomilus]

I want a Mega Man build that gives Shadow Blades a chance. Yes I know Metal Blade's damage and versatility. I also enjoy SB's spammability and inability to be stolen by everyone aside from Villager. Still has multiple angles, can pin down opponents and allows for follow ups.

I suppose its validation is better discussed at the Mega Man board. I just don't like that such a good option might be delegated to "BYO3DS" status.

 

[Raijinken]

I want a Mega Man build that gives Shadow Blades a chance. Yes I know Metal Blade's damage and versatility. I also enjoy SB's spammability and inability to be stolen by everyone aside from Villager. Still has multiple angles, can pin down opponents and allows for follow ups.

I suppose its validation is better discussed at the Mega Man board. I just don't like that such a good option might be delegated to "BYO3DS" status.

I'm still running experiments on Shadow Blade. I currently think it's largely a case of being so significantly overshadowed by the Metal Blade, while not being a bad option in itself. Wish I could say the same of the Hyper Bomb...

 

[popsofctown]

I want a Mega Man build that gives Shadow Blades a chance. Yes I know Metal Blade's damage and versatility. I also enjoy SB's spammability and inability to be stolen by everyone aside from Villager. Still has multiple angles, can pin down opponents and allows for follow ups.

I suppose its validation is better discussed at the Mega Man board. I just don't like that such a good option might be delegated to "BYO3DS" status.

The thing is, there's only enough slots to barely anticipate the needs of the [majority] Metal Blade Megaman players. You could only give at most one or two slots to anticipate the needs of a Shadow Blades player, which renders it unlikely that you'll get the exact permutation of the other three moves that he wants. So there's a high likelihood the Shadow Blades player has to bring his 3DS anyway, but you lost a couple slots the Metal Blades player might have needed..

 

[Gawain]

Well either way, this glitch doesn't need banning, in any format, until it shows that it's really bad. if you don't believe in that, the only other thing to believe in is guilty until proven innocent. With that logic, each character, stage and feature should be banned until they prove themselves worthy. And that sort of ruleset is beyond garbage.

You see, that's fair enough. Again I'm not saying that i necessarily agree with a ban, I'm just saying that I'm not getting the knee jerk reaction towards the idea of one.

And to the guy mentioning T Hawk and Dhalsim, I wouldn't really know cause I come more from a BB//Marvel background. I only know the concepts, not matchups,but that's just bad design if it's as bad as you say.

 

[Splash Damage]

Either way, we can bring up technicalities and analogies about bans all we want, but we can only know the right option for sure through testing. No matter how correct either side may sound in theory, smash has proven time and time again that testing is the biggest factor that always leads to an altered conclusion.

 

[Anomilus]

Okay, then another question that's still related but directed more toward @ Amazing Ampharos :

Is it really worth reserving slots 7 & 8 for 2222 and 3333?

I think it's frustrating to see Mega Man's custom sets being so centralized around Metal Blades. It would be one thing if Shadow Blades (and Hyper Bomb) was a mere variation on Metal Blade or was considerably worse, but all three behave significantly different and have their pros and cons. I don't deny Metal Blade's versatility, but it doesn't necessarily outclass the other two. And fortunately, unlike his Neutrals, the rest of Mega Man's customs are easier to decide. Most everybody can accept x311 (for now), so I wouldn't expect much argument there.

At this point I would like a practical reason as to why we should concern ourselves with providing other people customs to test out when they have all the time to do it themselves. If they're genuinely interested in customs, they should be unlocking some themselves. Or get a set from somebody else. Or at the very least have a single Wii U that would allow them to grab a set and play with it. But outright dedicating two slots to just informing people as supposed to having two more slots for situations where a character really has a lot of options within their custom pool doesn't sit well with me.

So in summary, is 2222/3333 really necessary in the long run? Having two more slots for custom sets would be really helpful.

 

[popsofctown]

2222s and 3333s should be in slots 9 and 10 and be overwritten when someone actually needs slots 9 and 10 for a specific byo3ds set. Then they can be restored during the aftermath of the smash event, or if someone forgets to do that it's not really that important.
Then by convention they should not get numerical naming so that it's clear they are overwritable (while Ike's 2222 is not overwriteable). I've only set up a handful of characters on my 3ds but I left the 2222's and 3333's with the default name "popsofctow" because I didn't see them as important enough for the 8 seconds of backspacing.

I think the overwriteable slots could also be used for Quick Batter First Strike Invincibility Baseball Bat sets or other farming sets.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

2222 and 3333 are going except in the rare cases like Ike where such a set is actually a pretty good set. My current thinking is to post 10 sets, slots 1-8 being "guaranteed" and slots 9-10 being "extra" that can be loaded but may be overwritten (or not loaded at all on TO's discretion). For characters with far fewer than 8 useful sets at all, I'll be using that same labeling convention for extra sets that are the best you can use but that aren't critical to include (every one of Diddy's custom sets will be this way...). This model ideally will simultaneously serve a lot of different needs. National scale events that just want the pre-sets to cover the absolute maximum of players will use all 10 slots and leave it at that. Smaller events may find constructing the entire 3ds set-up obnoxious for stuff their small pool of players will never pick, and this will simplify that. Players may want actual information on which sets have some viability and which don't for the purpose of seeing what to prepare for, and that should make this more clear without the staggeringly arbitrary "critical vs supplemental" distinction that the beta was plagued by.

This format is my current thinking; it's not finalized. If anyone has any suggestions on tweaks to this format, now would be an excellent time to bring them forth.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

I like that a lot better, since I actually like using Scalding FLUDD sets for Mario. It definitely has its uses over the other two variants, especially in an environment where recovery options are bound to improve across the board.

 

[popsofctown]

2222 and 3333 are going except in the rare cases like Ike where such a set is actually a pretty good set. My current thinking is to post 10 sets, slots 1-8 being "guaranteed" and slots 9-10 being "extra" that can be loaded but may be overwritten (or not loaded at all on TO's discretion). For characters with far fewer than 8 useful sets at all, I'll be using that same labeling convention for extra sets that are the best you can use but that aren't critical to include (every one of Diddy's custom sets will be this way...). This model ideally will simultaneously serve a lot of different needs. National scale events that just want the pre-sets to cover the absolute maximum of players will use all 10 slots and leave it at that. Smaller events may find constructing the entire 3ds set-up obnoxious for stuff their small pool of players will never pick, and this will simplify that. Players may want actual information on which sets have some viability and which don't for the purpose of seeing what to prepare for, and that should make this more clear without the staggeringly arbitrary "critical vs supplemental" distinction that the beta was plagued by.

This format is my current thinking; it's not finalized. If anyone has any suggestions on tweaks to this format, now would be an excellent time to bring them forth.

What about creating "checksum" system and use that as the label for the 9th set so that it is easier for a TO to figure out if something is wrong? Not sure about the specifics of how you would use the mathematics for that, I'll wait to hear if you're open to the idea at all before I expend energy on it.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

What about creating "checksum" system and use that as the label for the 9th set so that it is easier for a TO to figure out if something is wrong? Not sure about the specifics of how you would use the mathematics for that, I'll wait to hear if you're open to the idea at all before I expend energy on it.

In my experience, if a set is put in wrong (rare but has happened), usually it's a case of mismatching the names and the special moves (like naming a set 1131 when it's actually 1311) which a checksum seems unlikely to address. In terms of building the sets, the time to build a 9th set is also comparable to the time to double check sets 1-8 for correctness. It's an interesting idea, but I struggle to see it being practical.

EDIT: Yeah, I did that. Fixed to make sense.

 

[popsofctown]

I think you mean "usually it is a case" where you said "usually it's not a case".

 

[ParanoidDrone]

2222 and 3333 are going except in the rare cases like Ike where such a set is actually a pretty good set. My current thinking is to post 10 sets, slots 1-8 being "guaranteed" and slots 9-10 being "extra" that can be loaded but may be overwritten (or not loaded at all on TO's discretion). For characters with far fewer than 8 useful sets at all, I'll be using that same labeling convention for extra sets that are the best you can use but that aren't critical to include (every one of Diddy's custom sets will be this way...). This model ideally will simultaneously serve a lot of different needs. National scale events that just want the pre-sets to cover the absolute maximum of players will use all 10 slots and leave it at that. Smaller events may find constructing the entire 3ds set-up obnoxious for stuff their small pool of players will never pick, and this will simplify that. Players may want actual information on which sets have some viability and which don't for the purpose of seeing what to prepare for, and that should make this more clear without the staggeringly arbitrary "critical vs supplemental" distinction that the beta was plagued by.

This format is my current thinking; it's not finalized. If anyone has any suggestions on tweaks to this format, now would be an excellent time to bring them forth.

Alternatively, one could order a character's sets such that their most popular/optimal/whatever are at the top and the most niche and "why not" sets are at the bottom. It would accomplish basically the same purpose but avoid semantic debates over what sets are "core" and what sets aren't.

The problem of course is figuring out how to sort them. Bleh.

 

[popsofctown]

Alternatively, one could order a character's sets such that their most popular/optimal/whatever are at the top and the most niche and "why not" sets are at the bottom. It would accomplish basically the same purpose but avoid semantic debates over what sets are "core" and what sets aren't.

The problem of course is figuring out how to sort them. Bleh.

But then lazy TOs don't know how far down the list to go before they stop.

 

[MajorMajora]

2222 and 3333 are going except in the rare cases like Ike where such a set is actually a pretty good set. My current thinking is to post 10 sets, slots 1-8 being "guaranteed" and slots 9-10 being "extra" that can be loaded but may be overwritten (or not loaded at all on TO's discretion). For characters with far fewer than 8 useful sets at all, I'll be using that same labeling convention for extra sets that are the best you can use but that aren't critical to include (every one of Diddy's custom sets will be this way...). This model ideally will simultaneously serve a lot of different needs. National scale events that just want the pre-sets to cover the absolute maximum of players will use all 10 slots and leave it at that. Smaller events may find constructing the entire 3ds set-up obnoxious for stuff their small pool of players will never pick, and this will simplify that. Players may want actual information on which sets have some viability and which don't for the purpose of seeing what to prepare for, and that should make this more clear without the staggeringly arbitrary "critical vs supplemental" distinction that the beta was plagued by.

This format is my current thinking; it's not finalized. If anyone has any suggestions on tweaks to this format, now would be an excellent time to bring them forth.

I like this idea a lot. it gives tourney's flexibility. Though I still think any tourney should allow someone to bring a set via 3ds. The chances it's not a preset is unlikely, so it probably won't happen that many times in a single tourney, so the time commitment is minimal. But that's for the tourney to decide, not us. We just need the sets that will get used the most often.

Though, now that I think about it, we may want to put priority towards having a build that's as conservative close to optimal but with one move changed for certain non-conventional customs as the extras. For example, in my Megaman example, we could make it so that custom sets 9-10 are

2313
1213

These are essentially offshoots of the 'optimal' Megaman move set (1313) that include rarely used moves. If there is ever a tournament that will not allow the overwriting of these sets, than people who want to use unconventional moves will still have something to fall back on, and they probably won't have to commit to anything uncomfortable due to the similarity to Megaman's 'standard' move set (1313) that most Megaman mains are expected to know. And if there's a tourney that allows overwriting? It never mattered what was in sets 9-10 to begin with.

Once again, this would mostly be for sets 9-10, the 'extras', though the same rule I guess could go to some of the other sets if there are other moves we ant to include for the sake of a minority.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Alternatively, one could order a character's sets such that their most popular/optimal/whatever are at the top and the most niche and "why not" sets are at the bottom. It would accomplish basically the same purpose but avoid semantic debates over what sets are "core" and what sets aren't.

The problem of course is figuring out how to sort them. Bleh.

Initially this wouldn't have to be done. However, with more tournament exposure, opinions on custom moves and specific sets, as well as more MU information at the like: A general consensus could be made on how to order them sometime afterwards. Doesn't have to be done right away.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

But then lazy TOs don't know how far down the list to go before they stop.

I'm not inclined to cater to laziness but we could simply say "start at the top and make sure everyone has an equivalent number of sets." Whether they go with the top 8, top 6, top 4, whatever.

Initially this wouldn't have to be done. However, with more tournament exposure, opinions on custom moves and specific sets, as well as more MU information at the like: A general consensus could be made on how to order them sometime afterwards. Doesn't have to be done right away.

Probably true, I'm just throwing out ideas.

 

[Splash Damage]

This format is my current thinking; it's not finalized. If anyone has any suggestions on tweaks to this format, now would be an excellent time to bring them forth.

I agree with @ popsofctown 's philosophy of having 8 different pre-imported sets for each character available and having 9 and 10 be 2222 and 3333 respectively, being the first to go at BYO3DS tournaments. However should an event not have the time to enable people to import their own sets, ideally we should be able to determine 2 more pre-made sets to take their place(3 in the case of Ike, whose best set is already 2222).
Example:
Currently, all characters only have six sets. Let's take Little Mac as an example because I only know how to play Little Mac.

2111
2311
2113
2313
2211
2212
2222
3333
-Open-
-Open-

However, 2222 and 3333 are almost guaranteed to not be used on LM or any character for the most part. So, we can move those to occupy the -open- slots and free up space for 2 more sets.

2111
2311
2113
2313
2211
2212
2213
2122
2222-Lowest Priority-
3333-Lowest Priority-
The community has essentially denounced that LM's custom sets must almost always be 2X1X, so having more variations is especially important for him, and I can only imagine this is exemplified with other characters, particularly Mega Man.

Then, let's say two people come in with unorthodox Custom LM sets and import them. Then, we erase the 2222 and 3333 to accommodate, returning them to the station post-tournament day.
The lineup would look like this:

2111
2311
2113
2313
2211
2212
2213
2122
3323
3211
There may be some problems with the system and setup i've described, but it is just and idea.
(P.S. don't use those 2 LM sets at the bottom)

 

[Anomilus]

2222 and 3333 are going except in the rare cases like Ike where such a set is actually a pretty good set. My current thinking is to post 10 sets, slots 1-8 being "guaranteed" and slots 9-10 being "extra" that can be loaded but may be overwritten (or not loaded at all on TO's discretion).

Yeah, that's more or less my line of thinking. More options is always better. Good to know. Imma go back to the current Mega Man custom thread and bring it up. Hopefully they won't go "Oh good, more room for more Metal Blade sets!" ~_~

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Probably true, I'm just throwing out ideas.

I do find the idea to be interesting though, and could be useful in the future.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Alternatively, one could order a character's sets such that their most popular/optimal/whatever are at the top and the most niche and "why not" sets are at the bottom. It would accomplish basically the same purpose but avoid semantic debates over what sets are "core" and what sets aren't.

The problem of course is figuring out how to sort them. Bleh.

I already try to do this as best I can, but I'm not going to tell people already using the system to re-implement stuff just to re-arrange sets... which is a lot of work for questionable gain and can result in non-optimum sets ending up above optimum sets.

 

[MajorMajora]

I agree with @ popsofctown 's philosophy of having 8 different pre-imported sets for each character available and having 9 and 10 be 2222 and 3333 respectively, being the first to go at BYO3DS tournaments. However should an event not have the time to enable people to import their own sets, ideally we should be able to determine 2 more pre-made sets to take their place(3 in the case of Ike, whose best set is already 2222).
Example:
Currently, all characters only have six sets. Let's take Little Mac as an example because I only know how to play Little Mac.

2111
2311
2113
2313
2211
2212
2222
3333
-Open-
-Open-

However, 2222 and 3333 are almost guaranteed to not be used on LM or any character for the most part. So, we can move those to occupy the -open- slots and free up space for 2 more sets.

2111
2311
2113
2313
2211
2212
2213
2122
2222-Lowest Priority-
3333-Lowest Priority-
The community has essentially denounced that LM's custom sets must almost always be 2X1X, so having more variations is especially important for him, and I can only imagine this is exemplified with other characters, particularly Mega Man.

Then, let's say two people come in with unorthodox Custom LM sets and import them. Then, we erase the 2222 and 3333 to accommodate, returning them to the station post-tournament day.
The lineup would look like this:

2111
2311
2113
2313
2211
2212
2213
2122
3323
3211
There may be some problems with the system and setup i've described, but it is just and idea.

I see no reason to have the replaceable sets be 2222 and 3333 to begin with. Instead we should have them be actual sets so that, in the event of a tourney that doesn't allow for importing via 3ds, then people will still have 2 more viable sets.

These sets should really be focused on minority groups (such as people who use Megaman's shadow blade) so that they have something to work with even though they can't import. I suggest taking their 'optimal' build (either that or their default) and then replace a single move with a less commonly used one.

For example: if the optimal set for a character is 1233, but their down special 2 is rarely used but there are enough people who use it to warrant representation then one of the replaceable sets would be 1232.

 

[popsofctown]

Having 9 and 10 be serious sets is kind of dangerous. Someone who doesn't bring or borrow a DS could get complacent about his expectation that 9 and 10 usually have something he likes preloaded. Then someone with a DS plays a customized setup there and then 9 and 10 is overwritten and the guy shows up at the setup later and he's screwed. It's going to be difficult for players who don't lurk smashboards as much as I do to be cognizant that 9 and 10 are not guaranteed. Craptacular 2222 and 3333 sets communicate the information on their own that it's not a stable slot.

EDIT: I don't think any tournament should disallow imports from DS, that's pretty bad. Then you have people who are mainstream getting an advantage over people who are not mainstream, the last thing you want is to enforce homogenity.

Also my odds of winning a tournament should not go up because I spam the forum about how good Turbulent Bomb is, win a previous tournament with Turbulent Bomb, or am dating Amazing Ampharos's daughter.

 

[MajorMajora]

Having 9 and 10 be serious sets is kind of dangerous. Someone who doesn't bring or borrow a DS could get complacent about his expectation that 9 and 10 usually have something he likes preloaded. Then someone with a DS plays a customized setup there and then 9 and 10 is overwritten and the guy shows up at the setup later and he's screwed. It's going to be difficult for players who don't lurk smashboards as much as I do to be cognizant that 9 and 10 are not guaranteed. Craptacular 2222 and 3333 sets communicate the information on their own that it's not a stable slot.

Interesting point…

I still think we should have sets that are made in the case of tournaments disallowing importing, like I mentioned before. And we don't know this will even be a problem until we put it into practice. We could always name a custom set '1123' or '3223' or whatnot, so people will know if it's not their's.