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Official Standard Custom Moveset Project Initial Release

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Kezzup

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Quick moveset note:

I'm surprised that Bowser doesn't have a moveset that includes both Side Special 2 (Dash Slam) and Up Special 3 (Sliding Fortress). I consider both of these to be really superior options for Bowser, and would be disappointed not to be able to use them in a custom tournament. The other two special moves don't really matter too much, but my personal set is 2331.
 

ParanoidDrone

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Idea.

Someone should make a tutorial video about using the powersave 3ds to unlock customs.
I am pretty sure some people don't know powersaves exist.
@DunnoBro offers a service where you mail him your cartridge with sufficient return postage enclosed and he powersaves you customs for free. IDK if anyone's taken him up on it though.
 

RobinOnDrugs

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Idea.

Someone should make a tutorial video about using the powersave 3ds to unlock customs.
I am pretty sure some people don't know powersaves exist.
It's a pretty simple process really. Each powersave comes with instructions on how to install the software needed for it and how to activate cheats. But if somebody wants to, then they can go on ahead and make a video.

Also, what ParanoidDrone said.
 
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warriorman222

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Quick moveset note:

I'm surprised that Bowser doesn't have a moveset that includes both Side Special 2 (Dash Slam) and Up Special 3 (Sliding Fortress). I consider both of these to be really superior options for Bowser, and would be disappointed not to be able to use them in a custom tournament. The other two special moves don't really matter too much, but my personal set is 2331.
Dash Slam is worse than garbage. land the move, and you lose.
Sliding Fortress is just as bad. you lose an OOS attack, your recovery angle becomes more predictable, your horizontal recovery may get better but it was already fine, which vertical recovery sucks even more.
 

Sixfortyfive

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It's a pretty simple process really. Each powersave comes with instructions on how to install the software needed for it and how to activate cheats. But if somebody wants to, then they can go on ahead and make a video.
It might be worth demonstrating just how easy it is since a lot of people probably aren't aware.
 

webbedspace

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Now watch closely as a monsoon of fearmongering about Kong Cyclone / Piston Punch / Lightweight / Luma Warp / equipment fraud gets them all banned just in the nick of time.
 

Raijinken

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Now watch closely as a monsoon of fearmongering about Kong Cyclone / Piston Punch / Lightweight / Luma Warp / equipment fraud gets them all banned just in the nick of time.
I really hope people are more rational than to ban a mild upgrade to a meh character, an inferior move that has a tricky glitch kill that is insignificant in 48 or more of the matchups, a great way to speed up a campy (and not very good at camping) character, and a double-edged reflex booster at the cost of spacing control.
 

MrEh

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Seeing the EVO ruleset brings a big smile to my face.


Dash Slam is worse than garbage. land the move, and you lose.
Sliding Fortress is just as bad. you lose an OOS attack, your recovery angle becomes more predictable, your horizontal recovery may get better but it was already fine, which vertical recovery sucks even more.
Dash Slam isn't bad, it's just not preferable over Slash. Slam has a huge tendacy to trade unfavorably against everything in the game because of its small hitbox. Agreed on Sliding Fortress though.


Quick moveset note:

I'm surprised that Bowser doesn't have a moveset that includes both Side Special 2 (Dash Slam) and Up Special 3 (Sliding Fortress). I consider both of these to be really superior options for Bowser, and would be disappointed not to be able to use them in a custom tournament. The other two special moves don't really matter too much, but my personal set is 2331.
Dash Slam is inferior to Dash slash in nearly every matchup except for DK. Also, the set you listed uses Dash Slash, not Slam. :/

Sliding Fortress sucks. It's slow, does no damage, and you forfeit any sort of OoS threat because of it. It doesn't even aid your recovery at all. Any angle that you would need Sliding Fortress to recover compared to regular Fortress is a distance that you're going to get gimped at. It's a terrible move.

Fire Roar also sucks. You lose your primary zoning tool for a move that doesn't even do anything.
 
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Koopakid 64

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Dash Slam is inferior to Dash slash in nearly every matchup except for DK. Also, the set you listed uses Dash Slash, not Slam. :/

Sliding Fortress sucks. It's slow, does no damage, and you forfeit any sort of OoS threat because of it. It doesn't even aid your recovery at all. Any angle that you would need Sliding Fortress to recover compared to regular fortress is a distance that you're going to get gimped at. It's a terrible move.

Fire Roar also sucks. Does absolutely nothing.
Yeah Fire Roar is pretty pointless.
 

ParanoidDrone

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May as well put in my personal bit on suggested sets to add. Disclaimer: The futher you go down the list, the less experience I have with the character. Take with appropriate amounts of salt.

:rosalina:
1211 (Round out the existing set of...sets.)
1213 (Ditto.)
3321 (N3 and U2 were both cited as possibly interesting on the Rosalina boards. S3 for zoning.)
3323 (D3 version of above.)

:4robinm:
3331 (I like Gliding Elwind, it feels marginally faster than default, so I stuck it with the rest of the fast ones.)
2112 (Nosferatu > Distant/Goetia, but the distance matchup with Arcfire is just too perfect to pass up IMO.)

:4peach:
2112 (Not a fan of the reduced range on Flower Bomber.)

:4ness:
3323 (Because Lucas.)

:4samus:
1211 (Are default Bombs actually worth it? I like them more than Slip Bomb but it may just be familiarity.)

I really hope people are more rational than to ban a mild upgrade to a meh character, an inferior move that has a tricky glitch kill that is insignificant in 48 or more of the matchups, a great way to speed up a campy (and not very good at camping) character, and a double-edged reflex booster at the cost of spacing control.
I may steal that wording. What's your rebuttal to calling for Timber Counter bans?
 
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Octagon

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Bowsers customs are my favorite. They bring a sort of variation to him that I just love and works really well for me. I run 2311
 
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ParanoidDrone

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I hope people are rational enough not to ban a stationary timed Banana.
I...don't share your optimism, unfortunately. Diddy's hated enough, the idea of a banana that can't be picked up sets off a lot of warning bells in some people.
Timber Counter needs the right stage for you to trade the kill potential of the default axe for that better stage control imo.
I keep forgetting that the axe changes between customs.
EDIT:
There was a problem fetching the tweet
I can't tell if they're supporting customs or hoping to get them banned.
 
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thehard

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There was a problem fetching the tweet

This is our standard for what gets banned, apparently. That's good.
 

Raijinken

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I may steal that wording. What's your rebuttal to calling for Timber Counter bans?
Feel free to take that wording. As for Timber Counter, it's another overblown tradeoff custom. No threat of kill from the growth or tree itself until well over 100 (compared to 70ish), no threat from the axe even at 150, and the tree itself can be hit with any sort of disjoint and killed within a hit or two (Even Megaman's disjoints are enough for this). Against some, sure, it's a pain to try to get around, but no more of a pain than Little Mac trying to handle a banana peel.

As for the sapling, it's a stationary banana peel that just lasts a while. Even worse in doubles since it'll trip your teammate, too. People can sound their alarm bells all they want, but it's simply an immobile stage entity that gives Villager his watering can for a while.

While I love Timber Counter for the rage it induces, I just can't consider it a straight upgrade when the regular tree provides the axe and other kills of varying usefulness, as opposed to being almost strictly a stage control device.
 
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Amazing Ampharos

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I've been making a video to explain how the logistics of custom moves work from a TO's perspective:


This feels unnecessary now that customs are already confirmed legal in lieu of pressing problems to the contrary, but who knows, it may come in handy?

We have some serious work to do in perfectly tuning these sets; I appreciate the help everyone is providing on that, and I'll be posting my detailed thoughts on the specific sets as soon as I'm able.
 

thehard

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I've been making a video to explain how the logistics of custom moves work from a TO's perspective:


This feels unnecessary now that customs are already confirmed legal in lieu of pressing problems to the contrary, but who knows, it may come in handy?

We have some serious work to do in perfectly tuning these sets; I appreciate the help everyone is providing on that, and I'll be posting my detailed thoughts on the specific sets as soon as I'm able.
It won't hurt to send that out to any important TOs you can think of.
 

Splash Damage

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We have some serious work to do in perfectly tuning these sets; I appreciate the help everyone is providing on that, and I'll be posting my detailed thoughts on the specific sets as soon as I'm able.
I'll be pushing 2213 for Mac 'till the end of time, and I
recommend opening up some new threads where people can recommend different custom sets to keep things more organized and keep the reccomendations on tab. People would post their new sets, justifications for them, and existing sets to replace in lieu of their new set being added. Just a thought.
Edit:Im an idiot, this already exists.
 
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Teshie U

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I'm expecting EVO will run presets only with no importing for logistical reasons.
 

Teshie U

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So we need the 10 best set for every character. I honestly wouldn't mind that being the standard for the community as its very easy to handle that way. Sacrifices may have to be made somewhere and if we can cut out importing per person, this gets a whole lot simpler.

Keep in mind, Miis have unlimited slots.
 

Krysco

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Welp, since others are posting sets they feel should be/stay in I'll go ahead and post mine.
:4ganondorf:
2221
2222
Flame Wave may be 'outclassed' by Choke and Chain but that doesn't mean it's bad. A ko command grab that can still get suicide kos. It may be slow and short ranged but I like it.
:4link:
1212
2212
I'll admit that I'm a pretty bad Link player but I like Giant Bombs. Never cared for bomb combos so I'd rather have stage control even if they are slow to pull out.
:4marth::4lucina:
3121
I feel we should have both 1121 and 3121 on although the former is already there. Crescant Slash is too good (refer to signature for poor quality proof). Dashing Assault and Shield Breaker are matchup dependant.
:4falco:
3123
Much like Marth/Lucina I feel we should have 3133 and 3123. I just feel that unless you're fighting someone with a chargeable move or a gimpable recovery you should go with Burst Blaster though admittedly I haven't had many opportunities to try out the potential of Explosive. I feel every set variant should have one with Distant Fire Bird and one with Fast Fire Bird. They are both superior to the default imo and they fill different roles with Distant being for those who like deep edgeguards and using Phantasm to spike and Fast being more useful on stage.
:4pikachu:
1313
2313
Haven't used Pika with customs against a person unfortunately so I can't say this with experience but I feel Distant Thunder has at least some use. I won't deny that default is better but dtilt/utilt/backward crawl Thunder is a nice edgeguarding tactic and with Distant you can use the same tactic fewer times in total but catch higher recoveries. Not too much of a difference but it's something.
:4falcon:
I don't use the character at all but doesn't up3 ko? I'd imagine the nerfs are distant and speed but that doesn't seem to matter to the Mario's or Palutena. I'd make the same argument for Link and his Shocking Spin but I've at least got experience with how bad that is and plus Explosive Falcon Dive is a grab which is at least slightly useful.

Every other set I care for is already on but I suppose I should eventually list those so that way there's support for them to stay. At the very least I'd like to see the Marth and Falco sets listed since those two become my favourite characters with customs on but they are lacking some of my favourite sets.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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Thoughts on select characters (characters about which I currently have thoughts, obviously far from complete):

Luigi:

I believe there have been recent developments to suggest Ice Balls are pretty great, definitely going to be sure to include some sets with them.

Bowser:

After great consideration, I've decided that MrEh makes an excellent point and that 1211 and 1311 should be movesets included for Bowser. Once I decided to retain these two sets, my next logical leap was to think about expanding the sets available for less enlightened Bowsers. I'm thinking 1231, 3211, and 1313 will finish a few iterative options. For #10, maybe 1312? We all know none of these sets are great as they are not 1211 or 1311, but we are aiming for stuff to make everyone as happy as is possible.

Rosalina:

3211
3213
3311
3313

Power Luma Shot is the best move she doesn't have incorporated right now, and I think it's worth fully supporting. I don't think anyone would really use 1211 or 1213 to be honest; Floaty Star Bit has nearly perfectly wrong synergy with default Luma Shot. To be real, I think the overwhelming majority of the time Rosalina will use 2311 or 2313 and the latter only against opponents like DK who have nothing to absorb with Gravitational Pull.

My biggest worry is excluding "from the game" both Launch Star variants. Launch Star Plus just seems horrible to me, gutting Rosalina's recovery options for questionable speed improvements, but didn't dabuz say he liked it with his opinion here being really important? Launch Star Attack is ridiculously marginal, like seriously the worst offensive up special ever, but I can see some situation possibly arising in which the hitboxes are needed to bypass an edgeguard or something. I definitely don't want to drop any of the six sets she currently has; it's mostly a question of whether Power Luma Shot deserves full support or whether some of the space it promises to take should be given to up special variants.

Little Mac:

I definitely plan to flesh out support for Grounding Blow with the extra space; that move being undersupported is the main flaw with Mac's current list for sure. I will likely include 3111 as well just because some people like it, but I'll have to think about the details for that one.

Ganondorf:

With 10 full slots to use, Warlock Thrust needs some sets. 3322 and 3122 seem obvious to include. I'm thinking some Flame Wave sets to round it out (2222 and 2221?).

Marth/Lucina:

I'm going to throw in every combo I don't have of neutral-3, up-3, and down-3 (that would be 1131 and 3113), 3121, and then think really hard about the last set (candidates are 1123, 3123, and X3XX currently leaning to 1311).

Robin:

1311 for sure as that's the only truly useful excluded set, probably some Gliding Elwind stuff to round it out (like 1131, 2131, 3131?). Robin is pretty well covered as long as all combinations of Thunder variants and side-1/side-3 combos are covered.

Dr. Mario:

Huge pills seem to have some real use unlike Mario's huge fireball? Going to have to work it in somehow. Does anyone know what boss prefers on Dr. Mario (or any of his other characters)? That would be great information.

Sonic:

I think his best move that is not supported right now is Gravitational Charge (down-3). 1211 is the one true Sonic set, default is a very competitive second best, anything with Double Spring is the dubious but plausible third, and the rest is... poor. After including 1113 and 1213, I'm thinking 3111 and 3211 may be the best remaining options even though, for serious, Surprise Attack is a really poor move (but up-3 and down-2 are pretty much not moves at all so neutral-3 may be the best direction to go to fill these slots).

Mii Brawler:

As per the frequent and wise suggestion of Jigglymaster, 2122 is going to be added for sure. I'm unsure of how to handle Piston Punch; it's clearly sub-optimal except for abusing a really silly gimmick that is very rarely of real merit. Should it be included, or should we save ourselves some serious stress and just drop this move (not banned just... not included)? I'm also not sure if side-2 or side-3 are worth using over Onslaught; all three are pretty marginal moves, but I've seen niche uses of all of them and am not sure standardizing on Onslaught is optimal.

In terms of Mii sizes, and this applies to all of them, I'm thinking including min size, default size, and min width max height for all sets may actually be best. This is clean and simple. For Brawler I'm pretty sure it includes every plausible option for size that a real player might want. I've seen suggested that a middling height setting suggested for Swordfighter and Gunner a few times; how should we proceed with that? That could be difficult to communicate and standardize among many different 3ds units nationwide. I don't want any player to be forced to use anything sub-optimal if it can at all be avoided, and we need it to be very clear right now that the Mii Fighter characters are just as important as all of the other characters and are going to be a significant priority in this update as the old sets for them did not represent my best effort nor the best effort of the community on them. I just want to make sure we can have identical player experiences, and if it's an arbitrary point on the slider, I worry that different people will have it off a tick and it would be a terrible look on the community if some Mii Gunner player claimed to have lost a tournament set because the set-up he was using had that pre-set built one tick too short or something whereas it's very clean and non-ambiguous with extreme slider settings (or using guest Miis). I want thoughts on this.

Mewtwo:

I have no idea when he's going to release or if he's going to be legal at EVO or any other particular events, but my Spinarak sense tells me that it's very likely going to be in March. Regardless of how far along things are (even if they're already finished!), this project is going to do a rush job on Mewtwo as soon as he releases to add him to the project. No one is going to be left out at any point for playing the DLC character on account of this project even if we currently have no idea what customs he even has and will have to seriously hustle whenever he drops.
 
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ParanoidDrone

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:rosalina:
I summon @ Dabuz Dabuz (whose tag I can never remember properly) and @ Lavani Lavani to discuss Power Luma Shot and Launch Star Plus. Agreed that 231x is by far her best set in general use and I have no real stock in the 121x sets so that's whatever.

:4miibrawl::4miisword::4miigun:
Size is mostly a logistics issue of sorting and labeling all the different variants, but there's a valid point in that there's room for an arbitrary number of Miis. I'll admit that since I don't use them I'm finding it difficult to really care what's done, which is quite unfair of me.

:mewtwopm:
Depending on when he's released, he may be banned from EVO entirely. If he's completely unavailable to the public until after the rules are locked, then I can't see him getting in at all, never mind customs. But honestly, that's something to worry about on the day of, not a moment sooner. Fretting about it now does no real good.
 

Comorant

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Its pretty clear the 2222 and 3333 sets aren't going to be much use at a competition as high stakes as EVO where you can't really afford to goof off and experiment so unless a character's optimal set happens to be one of those they should probably be cut out.

Also personally in favor of :4fox:getting a 2111 or 2121 set for the sake of having a set with a reflector that doesn't have extra endlag against projectile characters. Plus it helps with stalling.
 

Splash Damage

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Little Mac:

I definitely plan to flesh out support for Grounding Blow with the extra space; that move being undersupported is the main flaw with Mac's current list for sure. I will likely include 3111 as well just because some people like it, but I'll have to think about the details for that one.
As it stands right now, from what i've heard, plenty of Little Macs prefer grounding Blow, and I've found that it's even a better recovery option than his neutral option. I have already pushed 2213 more than enough, so I'm sure you've had about enough of that. Other than that, Grounding Blow doesn't really need many other new sets besides having variations of existing sets with this move included over the other existing side b being used.
EDIT: My preferred set is 2211, however I personally believe that 2213 is one of the most optimal sets for Mac, so i believe that it deserves some love. just clearing it up.
As for Dr.Mario, my preferred set is 2331, though I don;t have a huge amount of Dr.M experience, so my opinion on that may change. I will say, however, that Dr.Tornado is a good spot dodge and roll read, as well as a useful way to mix up recoveries when lauched high.
I can speak for Shulk, and I can say that in my experience, 1113 is his most practical set. That being said, there are countless different playstyles opened with his customs, that make the implementation of more varied sets, especially ones using his different Monado modes, very necessary. However, his neutral Up B will almost always be necessary due to its range and the ability to reliably Air Slash OoS from a very far range to net big damage and even early KOs with the Smash art.
EDIT:The Power Counter, his Down-3, is easily his best counter, as it starts on the same frame as his other options, and lasts far longer, making it a much better and safer mixup option. Of course it stales much faster but counters should never be used more than two or three times per match anyway, so it's moot.
 
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Lavani

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I look at Power Luma Shot in the same light as Snaring Aura Sphere and Dense Charge Shot; it gives Rosalina a slow, lingering, powerful projectile to control space and set up traps with. Worth noting that Luma's still invincible at full charge like the original Luma Shot, too. 3xxx sets are certainly worthy of some slots, the four sets already mentioned look ideal to me.

I don't really have anything to add regarding upB customs beyond "If people going to EVO are expressing interest in them, they should be available to them." I'm unsure which Power Luma Shot sets would be best to drop to make room for Launch Star Plus sets, but if there's interest in an option and EVO isn't going to allow importing new sets, it strikes me as highly important for said options to have representation.
 

Dabuz

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:rosalina:
I summon @ Dabuz Dabuz (whose tag I can never remember properly) and @ Lavani Lavani to discuss Power Luma Shot and Launch Star Plus. Agreed that 231x is by far her best set in general use and I have no real stock in the 121x sets so that's whatever.
For up-B, I think 3 is awful because she wants to go offstage and needs the distance on her up-B. Both 1 and 2 are great up-Bs and i have to play with it more but will probs use 2 because people are getting good at hitting Rosa during her recovery, but good luck hitting her during that speedy 2. It's easy to reverse and despite not having an angle you can change, it's kinda unstoppable and easy to recover with.

For down-B, gravity pull is the best, guardian luma only exists against characters without projectiles and the other down-b is AWFUL

Neutral B is Luma warp. Power luma shot would be good if it could be canceled, but as it is luma is gone for too long so you can't re-position and the pressure it can provided doesn't work when Rosa's moves need luma to be great. I would probs just run luma warp cause well, immediate long range positioning. Shot is good in mus against super fast characters and even then, i would probs just run warp cause positioning is too important.

All her side-Bs are good but it's either floaty star bit or the falco laser one. Floaty gives her a great close range attack, like it's really really scary to know you can create floating long lasting transcendent hitboxes that let you combo, a bit hard to use, not much range, but hey, it needs to be balanced somehow. Falco laser is well...falco laser. It's essentially free damage and makes Rosa the best at camping in this game by a landslide. Default one is just not comparable to those two.


My ideal setups go (in order)

2321
2221

Followed by the same except guardian luma against opponents without projectiles

2323
2223

And then the same things except default up-B instead of 2 in case I find 2 is worse for whatever reason.

2311
2211
2313
2213

This leaves 2 slots left for her and IDK what to do with them. There isn't really gonna be anyone running her attack up-B (it also is weak damage and knockback), luma shot won't be seen, catch and release is bordering worst custom in the game, standard side-B is just not as good, so really I can see two sets running power luma and that's it, and even then it's questionable.
 

Venks

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As it stands right now, from what i've heard, plenty of Little Macs prefer grounding Blow, and I've found that it's even a better recovery option than his neutral option. I have already pushed 2213 more than enough, so I'm sure you've had about enough of that. Other than that, Grounding Blow doesn't really need many other new sets besides having variations of existing sets with this move included over the other existing side b being used.
EDIT: My preferred set is 2211, however I personally believe that 2213 is one of the most optimal sets for Mac, so i believe that it deserves some love. just clearing it up.
Grounding Blow is definitely my favorite custom move, it just gives Little Mac combo potential he wouldn't have otherwise. But I still don't think it should be too prevalent in the sets. Stages like Battlefield, Town & City, Lylat, and Halberd make Grounding Blow unusable on stage most of the time.

Jolt Haymaker is still good for getting over Villager's trip sapling and Guard Breaker means you're definitely getting back on stage unless the opponent has a wind box. I don't find any of the three side specials to be optimal and don't think any of them should outshine the others.

The current sets for Little Mac reflect this pretty well.
 
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TheASDF

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:4pikachu:
1313
2313
Haven't used Pika with customs against a person unfortunately so I can't say this with experience but I feel Distant Thunder has at least some use. I won't deny that default is better but dtilt/utilt/backward crawl Thunder is a nice edgeguarding tactic and with Distant you can use the same tactic fewer times in total but catch higher recoveries. Not too much of a difference but it's something.
I'll echo this, while also mentioning that Meteor Quick Attack is pretty useless and should probably be kicked out.

I'm hoping to see some love for the Air Slash variants as well as Leaping Back Slash from the Shulk boards. They all seem like solid side-grades to me.
I wouldn't call the Air Slash customs sidegrades, quite, since each one leans too heavily in the balance for Shulk's recovery which is already a bit finicky. Mighty Air Slash would be really awesome if it didn't forgo the coverage on the second hit which can keep you safe, but also because the initial slash doesn't reliable combo into the second hit. Still worth a slot if we're expanding, 1133 probably. Same with 1123, though I can't see as much use for it since trying to kill horizontally with Air Slash just seems strange to me. (I'd love to be proved wrong, though.) Back Slash Leap I haven't played with much.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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@ Dabuz Dabuz Thanks for the Rosalina input; any thoughts on Olimar customs?

EDIT: I made a typo and this won't tag him properly; that's really annoying...
 
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TheASDF

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TheASDF
@ Dabuz Dabuz Thanks for the Rosalina input; any thoughts on Olimar customs?

EDIT: I made a typo and this won't tag him properly; that's really annoying...
Here, I'll call him over for you: @ Dabuz Dabuz .

To add something more meaningful, here's what he posted in his Reddit AMA regarding which Olimar ones he thinks are best:

Dabuz said:
Both of the custom neutral Bs (explosive or extra durable), the side-B that makes all pikmin act like purple (or maybe the side-b that causes pikmin to latch longer) and the whistle that makes recalled pikmin have a hitbox.
 
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