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Official Stage Legality Discussion

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fkacyan

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 15, 2008
Messages
6,226
The JP Stall isn't a broken technique. If it is, prove it is by winning tournaments with it.
Few issues with this idea:

- Already banned at most tourneys in my area.
- Why in hell would my opponent pick Norfair (It's a CP at best, after all) if they knew I would do this?
- I'd only be able to win one match with it before I'm not allowed to play on it again that set.

There's no way to win a tourney with a level-specific technique, especially if you're already better than the other person and won't be counterpicking.

That said, I've said it's the lava hazards that make the level CP-worthy. I don't know why people keep ignoring that part of my post.
 
Joined
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Location
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Sigh...it's gonna be a long time before everyone in here gets a good head on their shoulders. With the release of Brawl a MASSIVE influx of newer players joined the boards, so if it is you guys who want to decide the fate of the stages: fine. You're lists are gonna need A LOT of changes before it's decent though, I tell you what.

Now...let's all calm down in here and stop yelling at each other. Nothing productive has occurred for the last three pages. I'm going to ask a simple question here: should we ban stalling with flying characters? Because it really does not look like conventional stalling when done properly.

Norfair may, after all, turn out to be just like Corneria in Melee. Pick Fox on Corneria in Melee and just run around for the entire match, you're gonna win. That's stalling and that's the same thing that's happening on Norfair. So, with this in mind, do we still think we should ban it, or should we make it a CP? The lava can definitely support stalling, by the way, because you don't even have to attack the opponent, you can just wait around for them to get hit from some hazard or another and STILL stall. I don't want a biased answer, I want an answer based on facts. I hate PS2, and as much as I want to ban it it's not really ban worthy. Hear from you guys soon.

OK...I think that covers the basis of everything that's happened over three pages. Sweet. I'll post again when things have calmed down.
 

AlexX

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
651
The lava can definitely support stalling, by the way, because you don't even have to attack the opponent, you can just wait around for them to get hit from some hazard or another and STILL stall.
No half-decent player will get hit by one of the hazards unless the opponent does something to knock them into it (which leaves them open to counterattacks). Really, they aren't THAT hard to avoid.

By the way, didn't you promise to provide tournament proof that the stalling technique was indeed broken?
 

habaker91

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 15, 2008
Messages
121
hmm...i'm all for making it a CP, and keeping it under close watch and then banning it if stalling becomes a problem
 

chckn

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 16, 2008
Messages
972
Location
miami, Fl
Sigh...it's gonna be a long time before everyone in here gets a good head on their shoulders. With the release of Brawl a MASSIVE influx of newer players joined the boards, so if it is you guys who want to decide the fate of the stages: fine. You're lists are gonna need A LOT of changes before it's decent though, I tell you what.

Now...let's all calm down in here and stop yelling at each other. Nothing productive has occurred for the last three pages. I'm going to ask a simple question here: should we ban stalling with flying characters? Because it really does not look like conventional stalling when done properly.


OK...I think that covers the basis of everything that's happened over three pages. Sweet. I'll post again when things have calmed down.

agreeed, but unfortunately at least for a short while threads such as this one and the tier discussions will be full of flamers and people posting their uneducated opinions. On another note, I'm hosting a tourney in the next couple of weeks and I'd like to hear what you think about my stage banning. Personally I can't stand stages with hazards such as norfair, so Im pretty strict with cps and the nuetrals are pretty much set so theres not much dispute there. But yeah I would really apreciate it if you take a look and tell me what you think.

Neutrals:
Battlefield
Final Destination
Yoshi's Island
Lylat Cruise
Smashville

Counterpicks:
Pokemon Stadium 1
Delfino Plaza
Castle Siege
Frigate Orpheon
Halberd
Brinstar
Jungle Japes
 

Mic_128

Wake up...
Administrator
BRoomer
Joined
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Messages
46,175
Location
Steam
Counterpicks are very slim.

Few issues with this idea:

- Already banned at most tourneys in my area.
- Why in hell would my opponent pick Norfair (It's a CP at best, after all) if they knew I would do this?
- I'd only be able to win one match with it before I'm not allowed to play on it again that set.

There's no way to win a tourney with a level-specific technique, especially if you're already better than the other person and won't be counterpicking.

That said, I've said it's the lava hazards that make the level CP-worthy. I don't know why people keep ignoring that part of my post.
1. Forgive me for being blunt, but banning something with no proof? Stupid.

2. How about you pick it?

3. Then surely you pick it as your stage which equates you to a 'free win' with this supposed broken strategy.

If it doesn't affect the game much, if at all, like you say, then why bother banning it?
 

chckn

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 16, 2008
Messages
972
Location
miami, Fl
yeah idk as far as Florida tourneys go these are fairly broad counterpicks. I know its hard to believe, but most tourneys just have ps1, castle siege, and frigate orpheon as cps. You have any suggestions to broaden it up?
 

Mic_128

Wake up...
Administrator
BRoomer
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Messages
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HEre are the stage lists used by my local tourneys.

Neutral Stages:
Battlefield
Final Destination
Yoshi's Island
Lylat Cruise
Smashville

Counterpick Stages
Pokemon Stadium (Melee)
Luigis Mansion
Great Sea
Norfair
Frigate Orpheon
Yoshi's Island (Melee)
Jungle Japes
Battleship Halberd
Rainbow Ride
Brinstar
Pokemon Stadium 2
Distant Planet(D)
Pictochat
Delfino Plaza (D)
Mario Circuit (D)
Onett (D)
Green Greens (D)
Green Hill Zone (D)
Bridge of Eldin (D)
Corneria (D)


BANNED
All other stages

(D) signifies the stage is not selectable if someone is using Dedede, unless both players agree.
 

Charizard92

Smash Champion
Joined
May 13, 2008
Messages
2,207
Listen, although many people are making lists, not many of them are agreeable. Erich and after Dawn are possibly the most best at this here, so look at their list, and tell them what problems you see. I can also see how to stall on Norfair with Jigglypuff and tether recovery characters.
 

chckn

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 16, 2008
Messages
972
Location
miami, Fl
HEre are the stage lists used by my local tourneys.

wow thats really broad, but yeah Ill search for those other lists now

*edit* Im at work and really cant search through this long *** thread for their lists. Anyone care to post?
 
Joined
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1,715
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Yea...I'll make another list soon. Not now, but once the next page has started, yea I will. You won't have to wait too long, believe me.

And yes Alex, I did say I was going to get some tournament proof of some Norfair. That'll be happening on Saturday. I've got to find someone's camcorder to use too, now that I think about it...hmmm....
 

chckn

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 16, 2008
Messages
972
Location
miami, Fl
Yea...I'll make another list soon. Not now, but once the next page has started, yea I will. You won't have to wait too long, believe me.

And yes Alex, I did say I was going to get some tournament proof of some Norfair. That'll be happening on Saturday. I've got to find someone's camcorder to use too, now that I think about it...hmmm....
lol yeah, and thanks I'll be waiting
 

x After Dawn x

Smash Master
Joined
May 6, 2008
Messages
3,732
Location
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
I could always take a video of me stalling a game against a level 9 if somebody wants, but then again, doing it against a level 9 ruins the entire purpose of it. I'll see if maybe I can get a match up on Norfair where I can stall for a few minutes against a real human player.
 

Charizard92

Smash Champion
Joined
May 13, 2008
Messages
2,207
Jigglypuff is easy to stall with. Tether recoverers can also do this, but they have to hit the ground once to reset the Tether counter.
 

x After Dawn x

Smash Master
Joined
May 6, 2008
Messages
3,732
Location
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Actually, you don't have to hit the ground, all you have to do is grab a ledge again. It's possible to tether, drop, tether an edge, and edge hop back into the same edge again to reset the counter.
 

Rhubarbo

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 21, 2007
Messages
2,035
Rhubarbo's Stage List V4:

Neutral:
Battlefield
Final Destination
Yoshi's Island
Lylat Cruise
Smashville

Definite Counter Pick:
Delfino Plaza
Frigate Orpheon
Battle Ship Halberd
Castle Siege
Jungle Japes
Brinstar
Rainbow Ride
Pokemon Staium (Melee)

Optional Counter Picks:
Luigi's Mansion
Distant Planet
Picto Chat
Green Greens

Banned:
Mushroomy Kingdom (1-1)
Mushroomy Kingdom (1-2)
Mario Circuit
Rumble Falls
Bridge of Eldin
Pirate Ship
Norfair
Pokemon Stadium 2
Spear Pillar
Port Town
Wario Ware
New Pork City
Summit
Sky World
75m
Mario Bros
Flat Zone 2
Hanenbow
Shadow Moses Island
Green Hill Zone
Temple
Yoshi's Island (Melee)
Onnet
Corenria
Big Blue
 

Rhubarbo

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 21, 2007
Messages
2,035
Sigh...it's gonna be a long time before everyone in here gets a good head on their shoulders. With the release of Brawl a MASSIVE influx of newer players joined the boards, so if it is you guys who want to decide the fate of the stages: fine. You're lists are gonna need A LOT of changes before it's decent though, I tell you what.

Now...let's all calm down in here and stop yelling at each other. Nothing productive has occurred for the last three pages. I'm going to ask a simple question here: should we ban stalling with flying characters? Because it really does not look like conventional stalling when done properly.

Norfair may, after all, turn out to be just like Corneria in Melee. Pick Fox on Corneria in Melee and just run around for the entire match, you're gonna win. That's stalling and that's the same thing that's happening on Norfair. So, with this in mind, do we still think we should ban it, or should we make it a CP? The lava can definitely support stalling, by the way, because you don't even have to attack the opponent, you can just wait around for them to get hit from some hazard or another and STILL stall. I don't want a biased answer, I want an answer based on facts. I hate PS2, and as much as I want to ban it it's not really ban worthy. Hear from you guys soon.

OK...I think that covers the basis of everything that's happened over three pages. Sweet. I'll post again when things have calmed down.
Pokemon Stadium 2 definitely deserves a ban. Diddy gets an infinite on the coveyor belts with two bananas, the ice causes you to slide which disrupts game play, and the air slows down game play TOO much. You might be in luck, this stage is probably going to get banned.
 

habaker91

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 15, 2008
Messages
121
*cheers at PS2 being banned*
If stalling on Norfair is as muddled and hard to read as you guys say it is, i guess its a ban...
Also, i love the idea of including walk-offs but restricting Dedede from them
 

Rhubarbo

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 21, 2007
Messages
2,035
*cheers at PS2 being banned*
If stalling on Norfair is as muddled and hard to read as you guys say it is, i guess its a ban...
Also, i love the idea of including walk-offs but restricting Dedede from them
Walk-offs need to be banned just because how easy btcing (back throw camping) is, and how throws can KO so easily.
 

MysticKenji

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 15, 2007
Messages
4,341
Location
Orlando, FL / Pittsburgh, PA
Pokemon Stadium 2 definitely deserves a ban. Diddy gets an infinite on the coveyor belts with two bananas, (Won't they slide off?) the ice causes you to slide which disrupts game play, (Not by enough to be ban worthy) and the air slows down game play TOO much. (How much is too much?) You might be in luck, this stage is probably going to get banned.
10stadium2s
 

Rhubarbo

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 21, 2007
Messages
2,035
10stadium2s
Kay, I'm not to sure about the conveyor belts, but the ice and air definitely can't be allowed in competitive play. Also, can't you get wall infinites on the ground stage (this is irrelevant, the stage is in need of a banned).
 

chckn

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 16, 2008
Messages
972
Location
miami, Fl
Rhubarbo's Stage List V4:

Neutral:
Battlefield
Final Destination
Yoshi's Island
Lylat Cruise
Smashville

Definite Counter Pick:
Delfino Plaza
Frigate Orpheon
Battle Ship Halberd
Castle Siege
Jungle Japes
Brinstar
Rainbow Ride
Pokemon Staium (Melee)

Optional Counter Picks:
Luigi's Mansion
Distant Planet
Picto Chat
Green Greens

Banned:
Mushroomy Kingdom (1-1)
Mushroomy Kingdom (1-2)
Mario Circuit
Rumble Falls
Bridge of Eldin
Pirate Ship
Norfair
Pokemon Stadium 2
Spear Pillar
Port Town
Wario Ware
New Pork City
Summit
Sky World
75m
Mario Bros
Flat Zone 2
Hanenbow
Shadow Moses Island
Green Hill Zone
Temple
Yoshi's Island (Melee)
Onnet
Corenria
Big Blue
perfect list is perfect
 

smashbro29

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 9, 2007
Messages
2,470
Location
Brooklyn,NY,USA
NNID
Smashbro29
3DS FC
2724-0750-5127
Can someone give me a good reason to ban port town? it's got predictable hazards so I thought CP.
 

RoyalBlood

Smash Ace
Joined
May 4, 2008
Messages
764
Location
Mexico
Lylat Cruise shouldn't be neutral, it's too small, horrible terrain and ledges and bad music ( with some exceptions) -_-.
 

fkacyan

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 15, 2008
Messages
6,226
Counterpicks are very slim.



1. Forgive me for being blunt, but banning something with no proof? Stupid.

2. How about you pick it?

3. Then surely you pick it as your stage which equates you to a 'free win' with this supposed broken strategy.

If it doesn't affect the game much, if at all, like you say, then why bother banning it?
1. It was banned because people were winning with it at tourneys, to my knowledge. I don't run them myself, but that's the reasoning I've heard.
2. Yes, because the winner gets the option to choose the counterpick. Believe me, if I lose, and Norfair is open for picking, I will.
 

Machiavelli.CF

Ivy of the West
Joined
Apr 24, 2008
Messages
757
Location
Orange County, CA
NNID
Machiavelli.CF
3DS FC
3222-5675-4966
i think that people are worried too much about little problems. I mean, counterpicks are supposed to give advantages! but people too often act like they are supposed to be neutrals! this is my legality list...

NEUTRAL:
battlefield
FD
yoshi's island
smash ville

CP:
Delfino plaza
luigi's mansion
norfair
orpheon
halberd
lylat
mute city
castle seige
skyworld
green hill zone
rainbow cruise(melee)
green greens(melee)
pokemon stadium(melee)
brinstar(melee)
 

Mic_128

Wake up...
Administrator
BRoomer
Joined
Jun 19, 2002
Messages
46,175
Location
Steam
Kay, I'm not to sure about the conveyor belts, but the ice and air definitely can't be allowed in competitive play.
Says who?

Walk-offs need to be banned just because how easy btcing (back throw camping) is, and how throws can KO so easily.
Throws? KO easily? This isn't Smash 64. Only time they're gonna KO easily if they're on high percentages, or, as you suggest, people edge camping.

Edge camping has been weakened in Brawl, and is pretty easy to avoid with the improved air game.

Walk off edges could help an individual stage get banned, but the walk off by itself is not. And I'm paraphrasing the SBR on that.
 

Machiavelli.CF

Ivy of the West
Joined
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Messages
757
Location
Orange County, CA
NNID
Machiavelli.CF
3DS FC
3222-5675-4966
Edge camping has been weakened in Brawl, and is pretty easy to avoid with the improved air game.
that i think should make castle seige cp! there are so many places to run away from cg'ers on castle seige's 2nd part!

i also think green hill zone's middle gap's edges act as some cover...against edge camping...
 

TKD+ITA+Mar=

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 8, 2008
Messages
951
Location
San Diego
As for walk offs, what about D3's chain grab. I am sure the SBR has discussed it already, and I was wondering what their thoughts are on it.
 

clowsui

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Messages
10,184
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Mic: I've killed people with Bthrows at like 20-30%, it's really easy to follow up a Bthrow at the screen's edge with another throw due to the confusion of the ring. That being said it is pretty easily to jump after getting Bthrowed; it's also pretty easy to spotdodge and roll towards the stage.
 

Mic_128

Wake up...
Administrator
BRoomer
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Messages
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You're throwing them off screen, then grabbing them offscreen and killing with a grab, correct?

As for the chaingrab, the general rule is unless it literally slaughters everyone and you can with a tournament with it alone, then it's fine. M2K uses it and only just scapes wins, but that's him using everything else Dedede's got too.

As for Dedede+specific stages, the only one that's been discussed so far is Shadow Moses, so I can't comment on the whole with direct certainty as yet.
 

TKD+ITA+Mar=

Smash Ace
Joined
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Messages
951
Location
San Diego
All right well thank you anyways, I would expect the list of SBR stages would be released around the time of the tier list right?
 
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