Official Stage Legality Discussion

[DuskMarthWater]

Hey guys, what's up? It's been a few days since I've been in here. Glad to see that reasonable discussion has been happening. Cool beans yo. Thanks for taking the initiative After Dawn and reposting the list for me. I'm back around now though. The current list is on page 124(if you're using the forum default for number of posts per page) so check that out if you want to discuss something. It's near the end by After Dawn.

Oh yea and something I almost forgot to say is that the tournament I went to yesterday...well, it had Norfair as a banned stage so I couldn't get any matches in on that stage. Not only that, but my friend forgot his camcorder so I couldn't have taped any matches anyways. Sorry guys, but no videos on Norfair yet. If anyone else is going to a tournament where Norfair is legal and has a camcorder to use, go ahead and get some taped matches on there. I don't own a camcorder, so it's rather difficult for me to get matches recorded.

I think that we are all agreeing on just outright banning Green Hill Zone then? Cool.

I would agree with all those who say that Bridge of Eldin should be banned. It's really, really big, promotes stalling, has two walk off ledges, the stage breaks which causes massive stalling/projectile craziness, etc. Who agrees/disagrees with simply banning it? At least for singles.

And Green Greens...wasn't it legal in Melee? If so, then what has changed from Melee and has it changed enough to warrant a ban on the stage is what should be addressed. The blocks break, so infinites aren't really a problem and there's no problem with ledges, etc. Anyone got anything ban worthy on Green Greens? 'Cause if not, I think that'll be moved to a definite CP.

Other than those, I got nothing else to really discuss right now. Hear from the community soon.

 

[fkacyan]

Green Greens is fine. If you're worried about getting CGd, camp on one of the other platforms. Destroy the blocks. It's not like Shadow Moses, where the walls are a guaranteed wall infinite.

As for Norfair, I still think it should be CP. If there was no lava? Instaban. But as there is, Jiggs can eventually be forced out of it, and anybody decent at the game cab punish her terrible frame disadvantage. That said, it's still debatable.

 

[Blackbelt]

I see no problem with norfair as a CP

 

[Rhubarbo]

And Green Greens...wasn't it legal in Melee? If so, then what has changed from Melee and has it changed enough to warrant a ban on the stage is what should be addressed. The blocks break, so infinites aren't really a problem and there's no problem with ledges, etc. Anyone got anything ban worthy on Green Greens? 'Cause if not, I think that'll be moved to a definite CP.

Green Greens was one of the few stages in which tourney hosts had the option of placing as either a banned stage or counter pick. (The other optional stage was Rainbow Cruise, which could optionally be placed as a neutral). In Brawl, Whispy's apples can actually heal fighters, but the amount is not substantial, and should be allowed (as counter picks aren't supposed to be completely fair anyways).

P.S An awkward glitch can be performed on Green Greens with Samus' bombs and Ganondorf's u-tilt. However, this glitch is so rare that odds are that it won't even be replicated in any regular match.

 

[Rhubarbo]

I see no problem with norfair as a CP

We covered this a few pages back. Jigs can stall on it forever (maybe all multi-jump characters?). Also, some points that should be mentioned are:

-When the giant lava wave appears, combatants are forced to dodge the wave instead of fighting. This slows down the flow of the game.

-Combatants can be thrown into the lava. This lava deals high knock-back.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Green Greens was one of the few stages in which tourney hosts had the option of placing as either a banned stage or counter pick. (The other optional stage was Rainbow Cruise, which could optionally be placed as a neutral).

Actually, it was both Rainbow Cruise and Kongo Jungle 64, but they were optional as neutral in doubles only, not singles.

So...I'll post the list again with some minor fixes. Bridge of Eldin and Green Hill Zone were moved into banned because I think we can all agree on them being banned. I haven't seen enough evidence for Distant Planet being banned yet...I've moved it into counterpick for now because there I don't see anything on that stage that meets the criteria of a ban except for the Bulborb. One thing that's caught my eye on this list is Yoshi's Island Melee. What do you guys think of it? Does it meet the criteria of a ban? I'm up for it being banned because the blocks are solid and create mini caves of life, as well as the right side of the stage being a walk-off. But as mic 128 said before, a walk-off does not automatically mean a stage is banned, it only helps contribute to it. I say we should discuss this one for a bit.

Also, if we ban Green Hill Zone, would it make sense to ban Mario Circuit as well?

I mentioned in the last list that there was a way to select which Mushroomy Kingdom you want to play...for those wondering, it's on the Brawl Dojo; you hold X or Y when selecting the stage to ensure you play on Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1, and you hold L or R when selecting the stage to ensure you play on Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2.

Ok, I think progress has been good. The only stages I see that are still debatable in the definite-counterpick category are Distant Planet, Luigi's Mansion, and somewhat Onett and PictoChat, and the only stages I see that are still debatable in the definite-ban category are Green Hill Zone and Rumble Falls.

Battlefield Recommended: Random Starter
Final Destination Recommended: Random Starter
Lylat Cruise Recommended: Random Starter
Smashville Recommended: Random Starter
Yoshi's Island Brawl Recommended: Random Starter

Brinstar Recommended: Counterpick
Castle Siege Recommended: Counterpick
Delfino Plaza Recommended: Counterpick
Distant Planet Recommended: Counterpick
Frigate Orpheon Recommended: Counterpick
Halberd Recommended: Counterpick
Luigi's Mansion Recommended: Counterpick
Onett Recommended: Counterpick
PictoChat Recommended: Counterpick
Pokemon Stadium Recommended: Counterpick
Rainbow Cruise Recommended: Counterpick

Green Greens Recommended: Counterpick Optional: Banned
Jungle Japes Recommended: Counterpick Optional: Banned
Pokemon Stadium 2 Recommended: Counterpick Optional: Banned

Corneria Recommended: Banned Optional: Counterpick
Hanenbow Recommended: Banned Optional: Counterpick
Mario Circuit Recommended: Banned Optional: Counterpick
Norfair Recommended: Banned Optional: Counterpick
Pirate Ship Recommended: Banned Optional: Counterpick
Yoshi's Island Melee Recommended: Banned Optional: Counterpick

75m Recommended: Banned
Big Blue Recommended: Banned
Bridge of Eldin Recommended: Banned
Flat Zone 2 Recommended: Banned
Green Hill Zone Recommended: Banned
Rumble Falls Recommended: Banned
Mario Bros. Recommended: Banned
Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1 Recommended: Banned
Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2 Recommended: Banned
New Pork City Recommended: Banned
Port Town Aero Dive Recommended: Banned
Shadow Moses Island Recommended: Banned
Skyworld Recommended: Banned
Spear Pillar Recommended: Banned
Summit Recommended: Banned
Temple Recommended: Banned
WarioWare, Inc. Recommended: Banned

 

[Mic_128]

We covered this a few pages back. Jigs can stall on it forever (maybe all multi-jump characters?)

Until there is a video that shows this (in a match where jiggs opponent actually tries to hit jiggs) this argument has been pretty much dismissed by the SBR.

 

[clowsui]

We covered this a few pages back. Jigs can stall on it forever (maybe all multi-jump characters?). Also, some points that should be mentioned are:

-When the giant lava wave appears, combatants are forced to dodge the wave instead of fighting. This slows down the flow of the game.

-Combatants can be thrown into the lava. This lava deals high knock-back.

First point Mic addressed...
Second point - there is such a thing as shielding the wave and positioning yourself so that you're at an advantage to attack your opponent. Also, keeping them away from the tube? Ever heard of that - that way they get hit by the lava wave? It's their own **** fault if they don't shield or try to get into the tube
Third point - right, so when will it kill at 0%? How many % does the opponent need to be at to kill them? How do they gain this %? Oh, is that through you hitting them, or perhaps you using the lava to your advantage? Right then.

I'm also disagreeing with Corneria, the wall is not enough to make it a Recommended Ban. Camping on the gun is ruined by the laser, but what if your opponent picks Ness? Well, you had the character choice before them, if it's Corneria then you should change to a multi jump character or a character with aerials faster than Ness' grab so that he dies. Also it's not that hard to keep them away from that area, just tack on the aggressiveness. Or use Marth, and get an infinite.

I'm also supportive of Corneria due to character bias: This is one of Snake's worst stages, the largeness of it ruins his projectiles, he dies easy horizontal deaths, one of his primary moves (ftilt) is ruined by the width of the stage...the only thing he can do is UTilt which, after a while, is pretty easy to predict =)

 

[chckn]

First point Mic addressed...
Second point - there is such a thing as shielding the wave and positioning yourself so that you're at an advantage to attack your opponent. Also, keeping them away from the tube? Ever heard of that - that way they get hit by the lava wave? It's their own **** fault if they don't shield or try to get into the tube
Third point - right, so when will it kill at 0%? How many % does the opponent need to be at to kill them? How do they gain this %? Oh, is that through you hitting them, or perhaps you using the lava to your advantage? Right then.

I'm also disagreeing with Corneria, the wall is not enough to make it a Recommended Ban. Camping on the gun is ruined by the laser, but what if your opponent picks Ness? Well, you had the character choice before them, if it's Corneria then you should change to a multi jump character or a character with aerials faster than Ness' grab so that he dies. Also it's not that hard to keep them away from that area, just tack on the aggressiveness. Or use Marth, and get an infinite.

I'm also supportive of Corneria due to character bias: This is one of Snake's worst stages, the largeness of it ruins his projectiles, he dies easy horizontal deaths, one of his primary moves (ftilt) is ruined by the width of the stage...the only thing he can do is UTilt which, after a while, is pretty easy to predict =)

yeah corneria looks to be really borderline b/w ban and cp. I would prob place it as a ban just b/c of how easy it is to tilt lock under the wing and such but idk its really open to discussion.

 

[x After Dawn x]

I would say Corneria is a ban in singles and a counterpick in doubles. Contrary to popular belief, the wall itself is a standalone reason to ban it because the wall slants inwards, which helps wall infinites. Anybody can pick Meta Knight, dtilt their opponent to 150 %, and then up B them to death. The stage is also a bit too big, and promotes camping and/ or stalling. In doubles, however, this map doesn't really meet any criteria for a ban.

Likewise, the list that I posted is created and based on singles play, so that's why Erich originally put it as a Recommended Ban, Optional Counterpick.

 

[fkacyan]

Until there is a video that shows this (in a match where jiggs opponent actually tries to hit jiggs) this argument has been pretty much dismissed by the SBR.

I'll try to get a match recorded this Sat, as I think one of NJ's better match-stallers will be there.

 

[clowsui]

I'll try to get a match recorded this Sat, as I think one of NJ's better match-stallers will be there.

Don't you mean Mew2King?

 

[habaker91]

Has Big Blue been discussed?
It seems a lot less troublesome than it was in melee, and i've heard (possibly false) that its much easier to survive the moving road...any thoughts?

 

[Charizard92]

OK about Rainbow cruise, that stage is more horrid than you realize. I typically fight only on cp and above and RC is a really tough place, even for CP. The stage moves, walk offs do form, and it is real easy to mess up and fall to your doom. Please take this stage out of CP! I don't want to see any moving stage 100% legal!

 

[habaker91]

rainbow cruise is so hard to win on with olimar its not even funny...doesn't marth win enough tournaments already?

So yeah, add rainbow cruise to the "debateable" list, i guess.

 

[Mic_128]

Please take this stage out of CP! I don't want to see any moving stage 100% legal!

Boy are you going to be unhappy.

Rainbow cruise is fine. Nothing major has changed between Melee and Brawl. Bad on it? either don't play it or, better yet, play on it more so you don't "mess up and fall to your doom"

 

[Charizard92]

CPUs mess up more than I do, but tether recoverers like Ivysaur hate this stage, and I play as Ivysaur often.

 

[Mic_128]

So do I (play Ivysaur). I make a point of being Ivysaur at the peak of the stage, and the other two at the rest.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

doesn't marth win enough tournaments already?

Not really, Marth is a pretty unpopular tournament character.

 

[shadow3.0]

Has Big Blue been discussed?
It seems a lot less troublesome than it was in melee, and i've heard (possibly false) that its much easier to survive the moving road...any thoughts?

I HIGHLY doubt that'll work, because It's the same as in melee...
In other words, easier to die...

 

[x After Dawn x]

OK about Rainbow cruise, that stage is more horrid than you realize. I typically fight only on cp and above and RC is a really tough place, even for CP. The stage moves, walk offs do form, and it is real easy to mess up and fall to your doom. Please take this stage out of CP! I don't want to see any moving stage 100% legal!

This is a joke, right? Rainbow Cruise is one of the most fair non-neutral stages in the game. In Melee, some tournaments would put Rainbow Cruise as a neutral in doubles. There's no walk-offs, and it's not tough. It moves. Deal with it, it prevents camping. Some edges can't be tethered; that's great, but that's what makes a counterpick a counterpick, giving a small advantage to the counterpicker. There's nothing wrong with the stage. Just don't try to stall the game by camping in one spot and you won't die.

 

[fkacyan]

Don't you mean Mew2King?

No, referring to Teh Spammerer.

 

[Charizard92]

This is a joke, right? Rainbow Cruise is one of the most fair non-neutral stages in the game. In Melee, some tournaments would put Rainbow Cruise as a neutral in doubles. There's no walk-offs, and it's not tough. It moves. Deal with it, it prevents camping. Some edges can't be tethered; that's great, but that's what makes a counterpick a counterpick, giving a small advantage to the counterpicker. There's nothing wrong with the stage. Just don't try to stall the game by camping in one spot and you won't die.

No. Seriously, moving stages causes a lot of problems, not to mention the temporary walk off at the end.

 

[Patinator]

This is a joke, right? Rainbow Cruise is one of the most fair non-neutral stages in the game. In Melee, some tournaments would put Rainbow Cruise as a neutral in doubles. There's no walk-offs, and it's not tough. It moves. Deal with it, it prevents camping. Some edges can't be tethered; that's great, but that's what makes a counterpick a counterpick, giving a small advantage to the counterpicker. There's nothing wrong with the stage. Just don't try to stall the game by camping in one spot and you won't die.

Okay, I'm not for Rainbow Cruise being banned, but I'd like to point out the bolded.

There are three tether characters in the game. If one allows stages with NO edges to be counter-pick- Like Summit, which I've seen on CP lists- then guess what? You just hit the tether character about three times, hit them back out of their double jump, they lose a stock. Smash may be about killing as quick as possible, but gimme a break... That isn't a small advantage, that's like a JV4-stock-in-a-minute advantage.

Of course, there's no stage that has no edges, yet would be a CP otherwise, anyway, minus Rainbow Cruise.

...Now that I think of it, maybe it should be banned.

Nah, people can just ban it themselves during a tournament.

...On second... Third thought, maybe it IS debatable- with the introduction of Olimar, Ivy, and Zamus, it ain't quite the same as in Melee...

Anyway, main point of this post is the big blocks of text above.

...Hmm, perhaps I can see Rainbow Cruise being debateable.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Hey guys. What's up? Dawn, I think you're getting this stage list thing down really well now. I'm gonna turn the task of making stage lists over to you. Are you cool with that? You're doing as good a job as me. Plus you're a little more active than I am.

I pretty much agree with everything on that list right now too. I would also agree with banning Mario Circuit. Would everyone else agree with that too?

Nothing is really wrong with Rainbow Cruise. You're just arguing that you don't like it Charizard. I don't like it either, but it's not banned or ban worthy at all.

 

[MysticKenji]

Rainbow Cruise is fine.
It should be CP only for both, though.

And yes, it does have walk-offs for a bit of time.

 

[Charizard92]

I know I don't like it is a poor argument, but someone actually said that there is a problem with the stage and characters that tether recover.

 

[habaker91]

I'm quoting this from "Amazing Ampharos' & Xiivi's General Brawl Ruleset & Reasoning"

F-Zero: Big Blue*
Possible Issues: Stage movement, positional advantages.
Reason for counterpick: This stage has many “problems”; however, it lacks any actual reasons for banishment other than unfamiliarity with the stage and little knowledge. The stage gives advantages to characters and disadvantages to others, making it a counterpick candidate. The road can be easily teched and survived by all characters. However, this stage is under watch for a few reasons. The stage is random in the track layout and the car layout (it changes for every match). Thus you can't truly memorize this stage like Rainbow Cruise or Rumble Falls. During some portions, characters such as Ness are able to camp on high floating platforms giving an unfair positional advantage against other characters; however, the platform can lower sometimes or move off screen getting rid of the positional advantage. The stage does alter normal gameplay some, but how much is the question.

EDIT: You can find this guide under tournament discussion

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

yeah...
good 4 adaptable plyrs.
it iz annoying as H311
to try 2 get backto the stage as ike! lolz!!!1

 

[x After Dawn x]

Erich, I'd be more than willing to help out with the stage list, but you're still going to have to pop by once in a while to help out with it.

For Rainbow Cruise...the walk-offs only appear for a few seconds before going away. You won't get chaingrabbed in that time, and if you do, your opponent will die with you. If you don't camp or stall, then you won't be near the walk-off. At the top of the stage? Simple, just fall through the floor. You have so many options here; you can jump off the right side and fastfall, the left side and fastfall, smash the stick into the ground on the left stick and fall through and proceed to fastfall, do the same on the right, or do the same on the right side at the top platform. I sometimes even jump, then hold down and let myself fall through the platforms that way; the screen comes down so slowly that you won't even be off the screen for long/ at all. All it takes is practice. Every stage requires practice, and if you're against that, then you shouldn't be debating on this stage list. Many people thought that Poke Floats should have been banned in Melee because it was too unpredictable, but it was a counterpick because the pattern is easy to memorize and once you nail it down, there's nothing wrong with the stage. The same applies here. For tether recoveries, just stay ahead of the curve, it's no big deal. The Ice Climbers had a tether recovery in Melee, yet stages without ledges like Mute City, Rainbow Cruise, and Poke Floats were still allowed. Like I said before, you need to learn how to adapt to a stage's contents fairly well before you judge it. Just because it's unfair at first, doesn't mean you can't adapt to it. Banning stages happens when you can't adapt to something because a character can abuse something, or something is always wrong with the stage (ex: Fox waveshining characters to the right side of Yoshi's Island in Melee and upsmashing them to death at 40 %). Rainbow Cruise is a stage that you can easily adapt to like Poke Floats. I'm sure most people agreed that Poke Floats was a ban before an official stage list was created, but after people got good at Melee and realized the stage's functions, it was put in counterpick. There's nothing broken about Rainbow Cruise.

 

[smashbro29]

What exactly are the arguments for PKMN stadium 2 and is there an official decision?

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Hehe...don't worry Dawn, I'll still be around.

I'm pretty sure that you can't tech the road and live either. Why is obvious: because the road moves WAY faster than you do, so once you hit it, even if you tech it you die. You can't get back up in time. Unless something has DRAMATICALLY changed from Melee, I'm pretty sure Big Blue is gonna stay banned. Or has the road changed in that aspect? I'll go check right now...be right back to edit this post...

Just kidding. I might not be able to check that for an hour or two. Oh well...

 

[x After Dawn x]

Big Blue's a definite ban...you'll notice that even in professional battles with Ken and M2K and the such, they decide not to tech sometimes to mindgame their opponents and the such. You can't do this with Big Blue because you fall off the edge and die if you don't tech. Also, it provides way too much randomness. I've seen matches where one person is winning by a clear margin, but then he accidentally fell and led to his death. The floating platforms also create camping and stalling, and the moving road just turns the game into random edgeguarding on the left side. Also, characters can't focus on their battles because they have to constantly worry about not falling in a gap between cars.

I'm not God and I have no final say in anything, but for now, Big Blue is not debatable. It's one of those stages, along with others such as Temple and New Pork City, that just aren't debatable. I'd rather much focus on Rainbow Cruise, Norfair, Pokemon Stadium 2, etc.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

I would have to agree with you. Indeed Ken and such would not tech for mindgames(that works against laser happy Falco's pretty wel), but that's not possible on Big Blue. In fact, it's really not possible to live WITH teching the road. Forget about Big Blue guys. Focus on other stages that are actually...err, debatable.

 

[x After Dawn x]

A bit offtopic here, but wow...this thread has lost so much activity over the past month or so that I feel that there's nothing left to debate about.

 

[AlexX]

In fact, it's really not possible to live WITH teching the road.

I keep messing up on teching the road and still manage to survive as long as I'm near the middle or right side of the stage. It's just if you land on the left that you can't get back up before you hit the blast zone.

 

[MysticKenji]

@Big Blue
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSD7nQqkvTE

What stage is next?
smashbro made a request for PS2, so...

 

[Charizard92]

Rainbow cruise please. You know, there are a lot of stages that there is a war between those who think it is annoying and those who think it's fair.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Rainbow Cruise is annoying! It's like Rumble Falls! It's about keeping up with the stage instead of attacking opponents.

 

[Pierce7d]

Uh, new to this thread, but knowledgable about Smash and stages.

Rainbow Cruise = good. The features of the stage aren't abusable due to their temporariness. Furthermore, at most parts of the stage, there are multiple landing points, or a strict floor, so tether recoveries aren't gimped totally if they position themselves strategically.
Pokemon Stadium 2 = I hate it, so I'm biased.
Norfair = I thought this was a decent counter-pick until three sprays of lava from the background come and ended a really intense fight for me and my bro. We were in the air, and already fighting, and they were impossible to air dodge from our current positions. I was at lower percents, but he timed his airdodge to get hit later than I did. Ridiculous random knockback in an F-Zero like feature, I died at 74, he would've died, but got blasted in the direction farther from the deathline, and airdodged a little later while he was at 121, so he didn't make it there before I was dead. Three streams of lava simultaneously coming from the background is rare, but unpredictable and in this instance, match deciding. Thusly I am tempted to support it's ban (which is a shame, because I actually love Norfair)

Big Blue: I never have problems on this stage, since I used to play here a lot on melee. In fact, my brother and I use the moving floor, to quickly attack the opponent by staying on the right side of the stage and jumping onto the floor to speedily approach our opponent's adding a new element to the match. I've yet to successfully grab him and one for one stock him to the deathline with this tactic though. Perhaps I should use a character with a long range grab and test this.

This is all coming from a Marth main.