Official Stage Legality Discussion

[clowsui]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Hoz1741aSYE
How bad can it be?

 

[smashbro29]

Nothing on PKMN stadium2 yet? I'll start with it's 2 biggest flaws
1.The wind I'm not sure in what way but it's problematic for sure
2.The conveyor this is not only annoying but completely kills characters like Link and Ike

 

[fkacyan]

G&W's uair can kill without touching you in the wind segment.

 

[habaker91]

G&W's uair can kill without touching you in the wind segment.

A reason to ban PS2?
Probably not, but i hate it so i dont mind much

 

[MysticKenji]

G&W's uair can kill without touching you in the wind segment.

if you're both off the top of the screen.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Rainbow Cruise is annoying! It's like Rumble Falls! It's about keeping up with the stage instead of attacking opponents.

Again, this is a biased reason that has absolutely no judgement at all in the ban of the stage. Read my post before yours, it addresses the problem.

There is nothing wrong with Rainbow Cruise, it's not going to be banned and it does not meet the criteria for a ban.

As for Big Blue...somebody posted a video which basically shows why it's banned.

Now, for Pokemon Stadium 2...I'm going to test the wind segments of the stage and see if Game and Watch really does KO others with his uair.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Rainbow Cruise always moves at at the same pace everytime and does not have any hazards. With Rumble falls, the speed of movement is random and has spikes that players can throw to one to get cheap KOs.

Pokemon Stadium 2's wind stage lowers the gravity. The problem with gravity changes is that it gives unfair advantages to certain characters. Heavy gravity favors ground based fighters and low favors aerial based ones. It's just as bad as a positinal advantage.

 

[Blackbelt]

@Big Blue
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSD7nQqkvTE

What stage is next?
smashbro made a request for PS2, so...

Holy crap, I'm youtube and I didn't even know it.


But yeah, i remember that fight. It was pretty bad.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Hoz1741aSYE
How bad can it be?

it was a bad ike in the firstplace...but still beat rob...

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big blue...no ledges, but can't effect tether recoveries, one can easily jump back to the stage.

 

[Mic_128]

G&W's uair can kill without touching you in the wind segment.

Only if a character is actually hit by the trumpet. The wind alone can't kill.

 

[x After Dawn x]

it was a bad ike in the firstplace...but still beat rob...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

big blue...no ledges, but can't effect tether recoveries, one can easily jump back to the stage.

So? If you miss, you're dead. If you get meteor smashed, you won't be able to meteor cancel it and recover, you'll hit the ground and fly off the stage. It's not legal.

 

[Pierce7d]

I got annoyed reading this because you guys argue so much. Smashers are so polite in person, but you come to the forums and people always have to comment on each other, and can't just stick to the topic without flaming someone else. It's like a lot of you are incapable of saying "Well, that may not be a good idea because of reason A, B, and C." without calling each other stupid. I feel like I'm back in grade school sometimes.

Anyway, my small contribute to this thread is simply to remind people that you may wish to remember you might want separate lists for SINGLES and for DOUBLES. Some stuff isn't really all that broken when there are 4 players in the match.

As for my ideas with stages, I agree with the post on the link below, which can be found on page 122 of this thread.

http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=4736661&postcount=1818

 

[Charizard92]

Hmn, explain how one stage form can ban a stage, because the most I can come up with is two.

Flying: banned due to obvious reasons.
Electric: between ban and counterpick, it horribly limits playable land, and promotes camping
Ice: CP for obvious reasons
Ground: I'm not sure about that mound and what it would do, but it doesn't look like it can permanently trap someone due to its obtuse angle.
Normal: duh, neutral

Please comment without flaming.

 

[MysticKenji]

The mound is an angled wall on its right side.
Ike's infinite doesn't work, but Dedede's does.
Both infinites work.

 

[Charizard92]

Yeah but most walls are at right or worse, concave. The mound is an obtuse angle, which means that the mound intersects the ground at a larger than right angle shaped some what like this:
\_

not very good a trapping someone like the vertical walls or the concave walls like Corneria, which is shpaed like this:
/
\_

not as hard to escape I swear.

 

[x After Dawn x]

I got annoyed reading this because you guys argue so much. Smashers are so polite in person, but you come to the forums and people always have to comment on each other, and can't just stick to the topic without flaming someone else. It's like a lot of you are incapable of saying "Well, that may not be a good idea because of reason A, B, and C." without calling each other stupid. I feel like I'm back in grade school sometimes.

Anyway, my small contribute to this thread is simply to remind people that you may wish to remember you might want separate lists for SINGLES and for DOUBLES. Some stuff isn't really all that broken when there are 4 players in the match.

As for my ideas with stages, I agree with the post on the link below, which can be found on page 122 of this thread.

http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=4736661&postcount=1818

Why are you criticizing others when you haven't even read the topic? If you've been around for a while, you've known that the stage list that Erich and I have been working on is Singles.

 

[Peach_rules]

Why should stages be banned that move? Just wondering.

 

[Meme]

Is there any place where I can see the justifications for most of the Current CounterPick stages?

Is just that most of my friends, really don't wanna argue nothing about Stage Legality eventhough they'll be holding a big Tournamet...

Since I've frequently seen good points from several players. I would like to know what are the main reasons wich Frigate orpheon, Brinstar, Distant Planet, and Pictochat (mainly mentioned as banned around here).

Also I appreciate that some people are willing to defend certain stages, eventhough some people find them "uncomfortable".

 

[x After Dawn x]

Is there any place where I can see the justifications for most of the Current CounterPick stages?

Is just that most of my friends, really don't wanna argue nothing about Stage Legality eventhough they'll be holding a big Tournamet...

Since I've frequently seen good points from several players. I would like to know what are the main reasons wich Frigate orpheon, Brinstar, Distant Planet, and Pictochat (mainly mentioned as banned around here).

Also I appreciate that some people are willing to defend certain stages, eventhough some people find them "uncomfortable".

Uh, what? None of those stages are banned, they're counterpick. Frigate Orpheon is counterpick because it's basically neutral, excluding the fact that the right side sometimes has no ledge and that you have to jump while it rotates. Brinstar's lava really isn't that bad, and you can jump after hitting it, unlike SSB64, and those little walls break, which prevent wall infinites. Distant Planet has a small walk-off on the left (though the water eliminates camping on it), and the Bulborb. PictoChat has some hazards that could make the stage a ban, but it's generally agreed upon that they don't do much damage, leaving it a counterpick.

 

[Meme]

Uh, what? None of those stages are banned, they're counterpick. Frigate Orpheon is counterpick because it's basically neutral, excluding the fact that the right side sometimes has no ledge and that you have to jump while it rotates. Brinstar's lava really isn't that bad, and you can jump after hitting it, unlike SSB64, and those little walls break, which prevent wall infinites. Distant Planet has a small walk-off on the left (though the water eliminates camping on it), and the Bulborb. PictoChat has some hazards that could make the stage a ban, but it's generally agreed upon that they don't do much damage, leaving it a counterpick.

Oh thanks for the Info... Sorry About the confusion I made... d >_>b...

As for those stages Banned, I come from another Smash forum, (Lawl Mexican Forum, really inactive one BTW) and the current Stage discussion are banning all stages mentioned previously (they even had banned for a while Delfino Plaza).

Which is why I came here to ask some questions about the legality of those stages. Taking some arguments from here might help the cause, since most people there are really stubborn.

 

[Charizard92]

If they're stubborn, you should ask After Dawn to go there and talk some sense into them. He (you are a he right?) managed to convince me that PS1 is CP, and I was stubborn on that one.

 

[Meme]

If they're stubborn, you should ask After Dawn to go there and talk some sense into them. He (you are a he right?) managed to convince me that PS1 is CP, and I was stubborn on that one.

I think that would be great but it'll be hard due the "Language Barrier"... Even on the internet there are some spanish-speakers who know nothing of english... even myself wonder how they manage to make accounts in certain places...

d<_< b...

On Topic...

I would like to suggest Pokémon Stadium 2 to be CounterPick, in most Tourneys, although with the things most people say, I don't see it coming anytime soon.

The stage transformations are really extreme, but I can't find anything "ZOMG This should be Banned!" kinda thing... Maybe they hill on the Earth/Rock type of stage... wich forms a kind of wall for a while...

 

[Charizard92]

I Would Like To Suggest Pokémon Stadium 2 To Be Counterpick, In Most Tourneys, Although With The Things Most People Say, I Don't See It Coming Anytime Soon.

The Stage Transformations Are Really Extreme, But I Can't Find Anything "zomg This Should Be Banned!" Kinda Thing... Maybe They Hill On The Earth/rock Type Of Stage... Wich Forms A Kind Of Wall For A While...

Thank You!

 

[x After Dawn x]

Actually, the ground / rock transformation is the fairest one.

 

[Meme]

Actually, the ground / rock transformation is the fairest one.

XD Well I didn't thought of that, since I really like the gravity change, and Ice Sliding... d >_>b..

And now I'm remembering the electric stage is kinda bothersome, but bearable at least for me since I prefer to play the game in the middle of the stage, most of the time (any stage). It really gets some friends agry since their game is mainly on the edge which is the issue with the electric transformation.

 

[x After Dawn x]

The electric transformation is probably the worst one, if not, the second worst. It greatly disturbs gameplay by forcing players to stay in the middle of the stage, and it greatly punishes them if they don't. It's easily abused, and the conveyor belts move so fast that they often push characters off before they can even finish attacking.

 

[Charizard92]

what about that platform on the left side?

 

[clowsui]

Oh yeah, that electric stage thing.
Remember PS1 from Melee? And how, if players were on both sides of the tree, they probably wouldn't go attack unless the other person taunted? Yeah, that setup practically forced you to stay on one side because if you were smart enough you would get an advantage over whoever got on your side. Guess what, it was legal!

 

[x After Dawn x]

Oh yeah, that electric stage thing.
Remember PS1 from Melee? And how, if players were on both sides of the tree, they probably wouldn't go attack unless the other person taunted? Yeah, that setup practically forced you to stay on one side because if you were smart enough you would get an advantage over whoever got on your side. Guess what, it was legal!

...? What are you even talking about?

 

[clowsui]

The electric transformation is probably the worst one, if not, the second worst. It greatly disturbs gameplay by forcing players to stay in the middle of the stage, and it greatly punishes them if they don't. It's easily abused, and the conveyor belts move so fast that they often push characters off before they can even finish attacking.

This.

PS1 Fire Stage, from a tactical standpoint, forces you to stay on your side of the stage should you end up on opposite sides of the tree unless you're Mew2King. It is suicide for either player to go onto the other's side because the other person has a huge advantage (i.e. they can deal a free 40-50%).

I admit, it doesn't disrupt play as bad as the conveyer belts, but all you have to do is just ledgecamp or camp on the edges until its over, really. The electric stage is no real reason to make it CP...the Ice stage on the other hand...

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Well, it's like I said a while ago, PS2 is an incredibly annoying stage. But so far, nothing truly ban worthy has popped up. I hate the electric part, which gives advantages to fliers, and so does the wind, and so does the ice actually(in a way). Why? Because they can just jump around and attack from the air without slipping. On electric, they can just float around over the conveyor belts, and on wind...do I even have to explain it? I guess that would be a good reason for it to stay CP. I'm not sure though, mostly because I hate the stage personally.

 

[Nodrak]

I just checked the thread (redirected from another topic) and I'm not about to read 131 pages to find an answer. Anyway I'm wondering about After Dawn's list... Why is Onett counterpick while Bridge of Eldin is recommended banned?

 

[The Milk Monster]

Bridge, more then likely, is banned because those walk off edges make a lot of people too strong.

Onett being allowed probably because it's not that bad of a course to play on.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Hmmm...BoE is banned because it's WAY, WAY too big. Plus a lot of people lose automatically when fighting D3 or Falco. When the stage breaks, camping like crazy ensues(boring), and the probably the biggest reason is because of bthrow camping. Just wait on the edge of the blastzone and when someone gets really close, grab them and bthrow them to their death every time. As for Onett...I'm not really sure on that one. He did say that it was still debatable, which I'd agree with.

Ok...I know I said that I'd turn it all over to you Dawn, but there hasn't been a list in a while, so I'm gonna make another list now. Hehe...I can't help myself! Anyways, here goes, give me a few minutes to look at it and update it...

Battlefield Recommended: Random Starter
Final Destination Recommended: Random Starter
Lylat Cruise Recommended: Random Starter
Smashville Recommended: Random Starter
Yoshi's Island Brawl Recommended: Random Starter

Brinstar Recommended: Counterpick
Castle Siege Recommended: Counterpick
Delfino Plaza Recommended: Counterpick
Distant Planet Recommended: Counterpick
Frigate Orpheon Recommended: Counterpick
Halberd Recommended: Counterpick
Luigi's Mansion Recommended: Counterpick
PictoChat Recommended: Counterpick
Pokemon Stadium Recommended: Counterpick
Rainbow Cruise Recommended: Counterpick
Green Greens Recommended: Counterpick

Onett Recommended: Counterpick Optional Banned
Jungle Japes Recommended: Counterpick Optional: Banned
Pokemon Stadium 2 Recommended: Counterpick Optional: Banned

Corneria Recommended: Banned Optional: Counterpick
Hanenbow Recommended: Banned Optional: Counterpick
Norfair Recommended: Banned Optional: Counterpick
Pirate Ship Recommended: Banned Optional: Counterpick
Yoshi's Island Melee Recommended: Banned Optional: Counterpick

Mario Circuit Recommended: Banned
75m Recommended: Banned
Big Blue Recommended: Banned
Bridge of Eldin Recommended: Banned
Flat Zone 2 Recommended: Banned
Green Hill Zone Recommended: Banned
Rumble Falls Recommended: Banned
Mario Bros. Recommended: Banned
Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1 Recommended: Banned
Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2 Recommended: Banned
New Pork City Recommended: Banned
Port Town Aero Dive Recommended: Banned
Shadow Moses Island Recommended: Banned
Skyworld Recommended: Banned
Spear Pillar Recommended: Banned
Summit Recommended: Banned
Temple Recommended: Banned
WarioWare, Inc. Recommended: Banned

Anyways, made a few updates.

1. I moved Mario Circuit to the for sure banned section. Does everyone agree with this?

2. Onett has been moved to the recommended/optional banned section. I'm still really not sure on this stage, so what does everyone else think of this stage? Banned or CP? And PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE give good reasoning and facts to back up your answer. Do not simply say banned or CP. Explain why.

I await the smash community committee. Erich out.

 

[MysticKenji]

I just checked the thread (redirected from another topic) and I'm not about to read 131 pages to find an answer. Anyway I'm wondering about After Dawn's list... Why is Onett counterpick while Bridge of Eldin is recommended banned?

Onett is fine because...
1. If you manage to get your opponent to a wall to infinite them, a car will stop it and hit you both.
2. The cars can't kill unless you're close to the blastline
3. If your opponent camps the blastline, you can just wait for a car to give you an opening to approach
4. ^^ applies to camping in the center as well.

Other than those I can't think of anything really bad with this stage.

Eldin, however...
1. Tooooooooooo big horizontally.
2. The bomb can actually kill at a decent percentage.
3. Camping issues.
4. The stage breaks. This means more camping.
5. Dedede

I could see it maybe getting a pass in Doubles, but there's no way it's legal in Singles.

 

[AtticusFinch]

I think that Onett should be banned because characters like DDD could abuse the walls and walk off sides with their chain grab, and that's about it. If anything a counter pick stage, but that's a matter of opinion.

 

[Meme]

*agrees with Mario Circuit Banning*

And Onett...
I Would say Ban too
Aside from Dedede's Chaingrabs there are the d-tilt locks, which some of them lead to both getting hit by the car. The issue is that the damage done by the lock plus the 30% of the car will still be there.

d<_< b... On a small side note Marth can follow-up his D-Tilt lock with Counter (receiving the attack from the car), doing a lot of damage and knockback (if shielded It pretty much destroys the shield). Still it is situational move... d9_9b

 

[theONEjanitor]

every walk off stage and stage with an unavoidable wall should be banned, period

 

[Charizard92]

every walk off stage and stage with an unavoidable wall should be banned, period

Seems like they already are.

To Erich, I understand the Bias, There are stage that make me want to tear my hair out (or gouge my eyes, depends on the stage) to think they are legal.

Here is a list of stages I hate to my guts:
Rainbow Cruise
Norfair

This is the list of the exact opposite, me want to hurt myself because stages are banned when I think they shouldn't:
N/A

Oh, I forgot, I don't have any of those.

 

[Nodrak]

BoE I understand now, thanks.
Corneria is reccomended banned because it's small right? I figured Onett was roughly the same size.