Official Stage Legality Discussion

[wWw Dazwa]

yeah he totally suggested that as a serious reason.

 

[x After Dawn x]

3/4 of his reasons are invalid. Battlefield had bad ledges in Melee, that didn't affect its neutrality. It's also not too small, it's perfect; I don't know why he said that, he must be comparing its proportionality to Final Destination, which is not a good comparison as Final Destination is way too big. And music obviously doesn't affect it.

 

[wWw Dazwa]

what are you even talking about? I'm talking about his joke reason for music which you flipped out on, lol

 

[Mic_128]

All right well thank you anyways, I would expect the list of SBR stages would be released around the time of the tier list right?

Nope, the stages and general Brawl ruleset will be out way before the tier list.

 

[Jingo_Joe]

Rhubarbo's Stage List V4:

Neutral:
Battlefield
Final Destination
Yoshi's Island
Lylat Cruise
Smashville

Definite Counter Pick:
Delfino Plaza
Frigate Orpheon
Battle Ship Halberd
Castle Siege
Jungle Japes
Brinstar
Rainbow Ride
Pokemon Staium (Melee)

Optional Counter Picks:
Luigi's Mansion
Distant Planet
Picto Chat
Green Greens

Banned:
Mushroomy Kingdom (1-1)
Mushroomy Kingdom (1-2)
Mario Circuit
Rumble Falls
Bridge of Eldin
Pirate Ship
Norfair
Pokemon Stadium 2
Spear Pillar
Port Town
Wario Ware
New Pork City
Summit
Sky World
75m
Mario Bros
Flat Zone 2
Hanenbow
Shadow Moses Island
Green Hill Zone
Temple
Yoshi's Island (Melee)
Onnet
Corenria
Big Blue

This is a great list, but why was Pirate Ship banned? Do the cannonballs really make it THAT horrible?

 

[habaker91]

This is a great list, but why was Pirate Ship banned? Do the cannonballs really make it THAT horrible?

From what i've heard, pirate ship is banned because of camping in the water with a few characters...

Any opinions on Yoshi's island Melee?

 

[FAILchion-]

From what i've heard, pirate ship is banned because of camping in the water with a few characters...

Any opinions on Yoshi's island Melee?

I think it's banned because it's a walk-off stage. =P

 

[Onomanic]

I think it's banned because it's a walk-off stage. =P

Yeah probably making cheap 0% kills easy as hell especially with characters with strong grabs throwing people off the to the right side. Plus, people can just camp up there in the right side and wait for their opponent to come and the camper will just grab them and throw em. I like the stage but the right side is annoying.

 

[Mic_128]

Yeah probably making cheap 0% kills easy as hell especially with characters with strong grabs throwing people off the to the right side. Plus, people can just camp up there in the right side and wait for their opponent to come and the camper will just grab them and throw em. I like the stage but the right side is annoying.

You are aware he was joking, yeah? If they want to camp on the boat, let them. It sails off screen, they either die, or jump off, at which point you smack em off the edge for being stupid.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

wait...yoshi's island or pirate ship?
yoshis' island's middle blocks stop cging...
so one, if against a cg'er, can camp on the left side w/ a projectile attack and live...:uzi:

im not sure about p.s...
its hazards shouldn't affect u play...
water stalling is all i can think of...

 

[MitchBerryCrunch]

Okay, here're my picks for neutral, counterpick and banned stages in Brawl.

Neutral (I feel these stages are perfectly fair for every character in the game)
Battlefield
Final Destination
Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
Halberd (Questionable)
Lylat Cruise
Castle Seige
Smashville
Hanenbow
Jungle Japes
Onett
Green Greens
Brinstar
Pokémon Stadium

Counterpick (I feel these stages could lean towards certain characters)
Delfino Plaza
Luigi's Mansion
Eldin Bridge
Pirate Ship
Frigate Orpheon
Spear Pillar (Two vs. two only)
Skyworld
Pictochat
Green Hill Zone
Yoshi's Island (Melee)
Corneria
Rainbow Cruise

Banned (I feel these stages are too hectic/random to be played at a tournament)
Mushroomy Kingdom
Mario Circuit
Rumble Falls
Norfair
Pokémon Stadium 2
Spear Pillar (1 vs. 1s)
Port Town Aero Drive
Warioware, Inc
Distant Planet
New Pork City
Summit
75m
Mario Bros.
Flat Zone 2
Shadow Moses Island (Dedede chain grab)
Temple
Big Blue

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

I am sorry but I don't feel that the list you stated is a legitimate list. I would tell you why but it would take to long.

These three lists represent the general consensus.

Neutral Stages:
Battlefield
Final Destination
Yoshi's Island
Lylat Cruise
Smashville

Counterpick Stages
Pokemon Stadium (Melee)
Luigis Mansion
Great Sea
Norfair
Frigate Orpheon
Yoshi's Island (Melee)
Jungle Japes
Battleship Halberd
Rainbow Ride
Brinstar
Pokemon Stadium 2
Distant Planet(D)
Pictochat
Delfino Plaza (D)
Mario Circuit (D)
Onett (D)
Green Greens (D)
Green Hill Zone (D)
Bridge of Eldin (D)
Corneria (D)


BANNED
All other stages

(D) signifies the stage is not selectable if someone is using Dedede, unless both players agree.

Neutral:
Battlefield
Final Destination
Yoshi's Island
Lylat Cruise
Smashville

Definite Counter Pick:
Delfino Plaza
Frigate Orpheon
Battle Ship Halberd
Castle Siege
Jungle Japes
Brinstar
Rainbow Ride
Pokemon Staium (Melee)

Optional Counter Picks:
Luigi's Mansion
Distant Planet
Picto Chat
Green Greens

Banned:
Mushroomy Kingdom (1-1)
Mushroomy Kingdom (1-2)
Mario Circuit
Rumble Falls
Bridge of Eldin
Pirate Ship
Norfair
Pokemon Stadium 2
Spear Pillar
Port Town
Wario Ware
New Pork City
Summit
Sky World
75m
Mario Bros
Flat Zone 2
Hanenbow
Shadow Moses Island
Green Hill Zone
Temple
Yoshi's Island (Melee)
Onnet
Corenria
Big Blue

Battlefield Recommended: Random Starter
Final Destination Recommended: Random Starter
Smashville Recommended: Random Starter
Yoshi's Island/Brawl Recommended: Random Starter
Lylat Cruise Recommended: Random Starter

Pokemon Stadium Recommended: Counterpick
Delfino Plaza Recommended: Counterpick
Frigate Orpheon Recommended: Counterpick
Brinstar Recommended: Counterpick
Castle Siege Recommended: Counterpick
Halberd Recommended: Counterpick
Jungle Japes Recommended: Counterpick
Rainbow Cruise Recommended: Counterpick
PictoChat Recommended: Counterpick
Luigi's Mansion Recommended: Counterpick
Onett Recommended: Counterpick

Pokemon Stadium 2 Recommended: Counterpick Optional Banned
Green Greens Recommended: Counterpick Optional: Banned
Green Hill Zone Recommended: Counterpick Optional: Banned
Distant Planet Recommended: Counterpick Optional Banned

Pirate Ship Recommended: Banned Optional: Counterpick
Hanenbow Recommended: Banned Optional Counterpick
Corneria Recommended: Banned Optional: Counterpick
Yoshi's Island/Melee Recommended: Banned Optional: Counterpick
Bridge of Eldin Recommended: Banned Optional: Counterpick
Mario Circuit Recommended: Banned Optional: Counterpick

Rumble Falls Recommended: Banned
Norfair Recommended: Banned
Port Town Aero Dive Recommended: Banned
Skyworld Recommended: Banned
Mushroomy Kingdom Recommended: Banned
Shadow Moses Island Recommended: Banned
Spear Pillar Recommended: Banned
Summit Recommended: Banned
75m Recommended: Banned
Big Blue Recommended: Banned
Flat Zone 2 Recommended: Banned
Hyrule Temple Recommended: Banned
Mario Bros. Recommended: Banned
New Pork City Recommended: Banned
WarioWare inc. Recommended: Banned

 

[MitchBerryCrunch]

You're right, those are good.

Mine was too general, in comparison.

 

[iMeeHow]

Why do some ppl say Distant planet is baanned it seems petty fair to me

 

[x After Dawn x]

Can we please focus on Erich's list? We don't need more lists, they're getting us nowhere and some of them don't make any sense (wavedashingluigi's list).

 

[Charizard92]

Can we please focus on Erich's list? We don't need more lists, they're getting us nowhere and some of them don't make any sense (wavedashingluigi's list).

True, there are too many contradictory lists, and Erich is pretty good at making lists.

 

[habaker91]

indeed...erich's list isnt a list of personal opinions, its based off of the last 800 million pages of discussion, i think we should focus on improving upon it.

I think we should move Yoshi's island melee up to counterpick: ban optional...Green Hill Zone has two walk offs, and yet somehow it is considered more fair than YIM?

Either Green Hill Zone should be moved down or YIM should be moved up, imo

 

[x After Dawn x]

Green Hill Zone should stay as recommended ban. As mic said before, a walk-off doesn't necessarily result in a stage being banned, but it helps contribute to a ban...but in this case, there's two walk-offs, a glitch that I'm not too aware of at the moment, the checkpoint marker, and the holes that open up in the center of the stage. As far as I know, that's recommended ban so far, so if you guys believe so, then we could move Yoshi's Island (Melee) up to recommended counterpick.

 

[Rhubarbo]

Green Hill Zone should stay as recommended ban. As mic said before, a walk-off doesn't necessarily result in a stage being banned, but it helps contribute to a ban...but in this case, there's two walk-offs, a glitch that I'm not too aware of at the moment, the checkpoint marker, and the holes that open up in the center of the stage. As far as I know, that's recommended ban so far, so if you guys believe so, then we could move Yoshi's Island (Melee) up to recommended counterpick.

I HATE Yoshi's Island (Melee). See, the blocks that can be shaken that are at the bottom can limit a players movement and can cause stalling. Still, it's seemingly a fair Counter Pick so I think you're right there.

Green Hill Zone is a definite ban. This stage is atrocious! The random ground breaking, the check point, and dual walk-offs. Certainly not fair!

And some other stages: Pokemon Stadium 2 should be a recommended ban for the ice, conveyor belt, and air stages. There is no way that stage is legal.

Picto Chat is okay, but it should be an optional counter pick. Same goes for Luigi's Mansion as it has the extremely tech-able walls which cause stalling issues.

Onnet should be a recommended ban due to enormous stalling issues on the side walk-offs. The cars by no means remedy this.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Once I think of it...maybe Pokemon Stadium 2 should be counterpick. I haven't yet seen anything overly dramatic on that stage that causes someone to win over another person unfairly in a tournament. The wind isn't that bad, it's about counterpick; if your strengths are ground combat, just don't jump, and if your opponent tries to SH his aerials, just move out of the way, the wind makes them slower and more floaty. The ground formation is about neutral, so there's little discussion on that. The real discussion about this stage should be the Ice and Electric transformations, not the Flying one.

I'm going to take Erich's list and edit it to reflect upon our newest thoughts here because I haven't seen him around lately. There was a bit of discussion further back of Jungle Japes, so I'm going to put it into Recommended: Counterpick, Optional: Ban because everybody does make a good point...the crocodile is a OHKO. Also, Norfair still hasn't been decided yet; nobody has posted proof yet that stalling is a major problem on it, so I'll move that. And I still don't know why we haven't agreed that Bridge of Eldin is a ban, it's banned for more than just walk-off blastzones.

Also, I'm separating Mushroomy Kingdom into two separate parts because I recently found out that you can actually choose which one you want to go on.

Battlefield Recommended: Random Starter
Final Destination Recommended: Random Starter
Lylat Cruise Recommended: Random Starter
Smashville Recommended: Random Starter
Yoshi's Island Brawl Recommended: Random Starter

Brinstar Recommended: Counterpick
Castle Siege Recommended: Counterpick
Delfino Plaza Recommended: Counterpick
Frigate Orpheon Recommended: Counterpick
Halberd Recommended: Counterpick
Luigi's Mansion Recommended: Counterpick
Onett Recommended: Counterpick
PictoChat Recommended: Counterpick
Pokemon Stadium Recommended: Counterpick
Rainbow Cruise Recommended: Counterpick

Distant Planet Recommended: Counterpick Optional Banned
Green Greens Recommended: Counterpick Optional: Banned
Jungle Japes Recommended: Counterpick Optional: Banned
Pokemon Stadium 2 Recommended: Counterpick Optional: Banned

Bridge of Eldin Recommended: Banned Optional: Counterpick
Corneria Recommended: Banned Optional: Counterpick
Green Hill Zone Recommended: Banned Optional: Counterpick
Hanenbow Recommended: Banned Optional Counterpick
Mario Circuit Recommended: Banned Optional: Counterpick
Norfair Recommended: Banned Optional: Counterpick
Pirate Ship Recommended: Banned Optional: Counterpick
Yoshi's Island Melee Recommended: Banned Optional: Counterpick

75m Recommended: Banned
Big Blue Recommended: Banned
Flat Zone 2 Recommended: Banned
Rumble Falls Recommended: Banned
Mario Bros. Recommended: Banned
Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1 Recommended: Banned
Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2 Recommended: Banned
New Pork City Recommended: Banned
Port Town Aero Dive Recommended: Banned
Shadow Moses Island Recommended: Banned
Skyworld Recommended: Banned
Spear Pillar Recommended: Banned
Summit Recommended: Banned
Temple Recommended: Banned
WarioWare, Inc. Recommended: Banned

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

ptad...shud be cp...
sure, the cars have anger management issues...
but with choises falling by the second...
u will have to make with the racers...
(verticle k.o. restistant char, cp...)

 

[x After Dawn x]

No. It's banned.

 

[MysticKenji]

The cars kill DDD, the heaviest char in the game @ 63%.
FYI.

 

[Blackbelt]

generally agree with Erich's List, but I just have one (Most likely very stupid) question.


Why is Summit banned?


(please don't hurt me)

 

[MysticKenji]

Summit has an exploitable loop.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Cave of life, loop, unexpected spikes, no ledges on the side, low gravity for a huge period of time, OHKO fish, swimming, walls for wall infinites, slippery ice, Olimar glitch.

 

[Blackbelt]

Cave of life, loop, unexpected spikes, no ledges on the side, low gravity for a huge period of time, OHKO fish, swimming, walls for wall infinites, slippery ice, Olimar glitch.

Olimar Glitch?

 

[x After Dawn x]

Olimar Glitch?

The last time I saw it in action was a while ago, but if I remember correctly, my friend searched it up and did it for me and it makes Olimar completely frozen on the bottom part of the stage. I don't remember how it works, but I think you have to have a blue Pikmin.

 

[AlexX]

Why should a stage be banned for a glitch that might not even happen?

I would agree that Summit is in need of a ban, though. Especially because of the fish, since it comes up so quickly with little to no warning.

 

[Nitros14]

The cars kill DDD, the heaviest char in the game @ 63%.
FYI.

Dedede is fourth silly, you're thinking of Bowser.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=162546

 

[Timbers]

Dedede is fourth silly, you're thinking of Bowser.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=162546

Dedede has the greatest vertical resistance.

 

[MysticKenji]

Whoops! Thanks for pointing that out.
And oddly enough, the cars kill Bowser earlier than DDD. (58%)

 

[The Milk Monster]

The Summit being banned Is not just because of Olimar, many more reasons, Olimar Glitch is just helping to why it should be banned.

 

[AlexX]

The Summit being banned Is not just because of Olimar, many more reasons, Olimar Glitch is just helping to why it should be banned.

Olimar glitch is unreliable. In the theoredical situation that Summit were a CP (which is probably not going to happen, but bear with me) and someone were to counterpick it against an Olimar player, how can they be sure it will happen? As an Olimar player, I have personally never run into the glitch at any time I've played the stage.

Note that I'm not saying Summit should be legal, I personally think it should be banned, I'm just saying the glitch shouldn't contribute to the reasons for doing so (besides, it's not like the stage is lacking in flaws to justify banning as it is).

 

[NinjaFoxX]

i would like to see the olimar glitch myself,just wondering if its that major of a glitch.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Did everybody completely ignore the other 90 % of the post that I had made? Or are you all focusing on the Olimar Glitch? Seriously, the glitch is just one thing that helps it in being a ban, it's not the only thing.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

Did everybody completely ignore the other 90 % of the post that I had made? Or are you all focusing on the Olimar Glitch? Seriously, the glitch is just one thing that helps it in being a ban, it's not the only thing.

we read it...but didn't care at the time...

 

[Steel]

Is Green Greens a stage available for counter pick in tournaments? What are your thoughts on this stage?

 

[Nitros14]

Whoops! Thanks for pointing that out.
And oddly enough, the cars kill Bowser earlier than DDD. (58%)

Well you didn't say vertical resistance, you said weight!

..if you want to get technical.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Is Green Greens a stage available for counter pick in tournaments? What are your thoughts on this stage?

In all of the tournaments I know of so far, it's a counterpick...despite there being a strong argument that it could be a ban. I could see it as being both, to be honest.