Official Stage Legality Discussion

[Charizard92]

Yeah it is more of a matter of "how much of an advantage you have" than "which one gives the advantage to the least amount of characters".

 

[x After Dawn x]

But FD isn't a counter-pick it's a Random Neutral.

You obviously have never been to a tournament before...it's called counter-picking with a neutral stage.

 

[Eten]

Well, going by competitive standards, one would think the fairest stage would be one that is not completely flat, isn't very big, and doesn't have any kind of gimmick, like the Arwings on Corneria. Even if you introduce one of those, aside from hazards, you give certain characters disadvantages and advantages, taking away from its fairness. Battlefield and Smashville are as close to we can possibly get to "fairness" by competitive standards, I think.

Why would you think the fairest stage would have to be one that is completely flat and not one that is completely full of slopes, is actually very big, and doesn't have a "gimmick" like platforms or ledges?

See what I'm trying to get at is that as you say "give certain characters disadvantages and advantages" is that it is all relative. Like, if Corneria gives an advantage to Mario over playing on battlefield, you can also simply say that battlefield gives Mario a disadvantage over playing on corneria. The differences are superficial and so we've got nothing that is able to define one stage as more fair than another.

Anyway on the topic of neutrals since you can't find some stage that is objectively the "most fair", then what is the "most fair" definitely isn't the criteria we should be looking at to figuring out what stages to use as neutrals. I've long recommended that neutral stages should be grouped based on their simplicity and consistency. We can find simplicity by the amount of stage related elements(like hazards, movement, and stuff), and their consistency(like how much they deviate from one another).

From there, if we want to further diminish the effect of even the smallest variation between these stages we change them from being selected randomly to the neutral starter stage being mutually agreed upon by method of a simple strike out system(suggested by another much earlier in this thread)- out of 5 neutral stages each person takes turns of crossing out one neutral stage until only 1 stage is left, and then they play on that. That, for example, would let a Ganon avoid Lylat for its tilting and Final Destination for its lack of platforms, while a ness or lucas avoids Yoshi's island for its uneven ground and possible recovery gimping support ghost, and Smashville for the opponents use of the moving platform. Then they'd play on Battlefield and everything is just perfect. Then the neutral starter stages aren't even considered random or subject to even the slightest amount of luck, even though they never had major differences or complicated components to start with!

 

[habaker91]

if you happen to be a crazy ******* who decides battles with equal # of stocks through sudden death would norfair still be a possible CP?

 

[smashbro29]

You obviously have never been to a tournament before...it's called counter-picking with a neutral stage.

I think you missed the other post retracting this one.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

ok....OK....
drop the conversation on counterpicking neutrall stages!
it gets old! you CAN cp w/ neutralls! there!

i think norfair is a cp! if you can't dodge the lava-then u suck @ smash! and if the capsule doesn't open-

(which im pretty sure it always does if u attack it)
-ive sheilded the entire lava wave many times before!

 

[Doggalina]

i think norfair is a cp! if you can't dodge the lava-then u suck @ smash! and if the capsule doesn't open-

(which im pretty sure it always does if u attack it)
-ive sheilded the entire lava wave many times before!

The hazards aren't why it's considered being banned. Stalling is.

 

[x After Dawn x]

ok....OK....
drop the conversation on counterpicking neutrall stages!
it gets old! you CAN cp w/ neutralls! there!

i think norfair is a cp! if you can't dodge the lava-then u suck @ smash! and if the capsule doesn't open-

(which im pretty sure it always does if u attack it)
-ive sheilded the entire lava wave many times before!

It's not a matter of how good you are at dodging it, it's a matter of how the stage disrupts, affects, or gives advantages to certain people through gameplay, whether it be unfair hazards, stalling, camping, etc. You too, have obviously never been to a tournament, and I really doubt you know the critera between a counterpick and a ban.

 

[Eten]

gives advantages to certain people

be unfair

Holy crap stop using this crappy crap criteria for banning stages cause it doesn't even work. If someone can bring a reason to ban Norfair back to making the game potentially damaging to competitive play, like randomness or infinite stalling on a loop for 8 minutes would do. And sorry, that wolf vs. jigglypuff video wasn't conclusive yet

No? First though, Sinz was playing Jiggs and my Jiggs is a LOT better than his is. If that match were me, it would probably have been a better one to illustrate the point. My friend Alpha doesn't play Wolf, so I have no control over him. I don't know why he picked Wolf either. If you like, I could get a match of it from the monthly tournament I am going to next Saturday. Would that help? That is, after all, in a tournament match and would probably prove the point better. Besides, you may still be right. The practice of it works with my friends, but it may not work so well in tournament, though I doubt it. I'm pretty confident it's gonna work in tourney as well. I don't know though, it may turn out like a Melee Corneria for Brawl. We'll see, and I'll get back to you on that next week Alex.

 

[AlexX]

Mind if we revisit the Halbeird stage discussion for a moment?

Looking at an earlier post and testing it out, it turns out you can DI out of the laser before the knockback frames kick in. I believe the beam was one of the main reasons people wanted it to be a CP, so this information might improve its chances for becoming a random stage.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Holy crap stop using this crappy crap criteria for banning stages cause it doesn't even work.

It doesn't work? How do you think the Smash Back Room determined the stage list legality for Melee?

 

[Eten]

How do YOU think they decided it when Brinstar was counterpick- that "disrupted the match" with lava and Yoshi's Story was even Neutral which provided a ton of advantage for marth? You drilled some dude on not knowing the criteria for what makes a stage legal for tournaments when you yourself have no clue. How many times in this thread have people gone over, come up with reasons that so and so stage provided "an advantage to certain characters" only to be told "duh, that's the point of a counterpick."

...LOL!

 

[habaker91]

If mario circuit and BoE are considered optional counterpicks despite chaingrabbing off levels, then norfair should be considered optional despite insane amounts of stalling

if we can ban stalling under levels, stalling with infinites, and stalling with sonic's neutral b, why can't we ban stalling on norfair with pit, MK and JP?

Tether characters are in desperate need of a stage that fits their ever so needy needs

 

[Patinator]

Why would you think the fairest stage would have to be one that is completely flat and not one that is completely full of slopes, is actually very big, and doesn't have a "gimmick" like platforms or ledges?

See what I'm trying to get at is that as you say "give certain characters disadvantages and advantages" is that it is all relative. Like, if Corneria gives an advantage to Mario over playing on battlefield, you can also simply say that battlefield gives Mario a disadvantage over playing on corneria. The differences are superficial and so we've got nothing that is able to define one stage as more fair than another.

Anyway on the topic of neutrals since you can't find some stage that is objectively the "most fair", then what is the "most fair" definitely isn't the criteria we should be looking at to figuring out what stages to use as neutrals. I've long recommended that neutral stages should be grouped based on their simplicity and consistency. We can find simplicity by the amount of stage related elements(like hazards, movement, and stuff), and their consistency(like how much they deviate from one another).

From there, if we want to further diminish the effect of even the smallest variation between these stages we change them from being selected randomly to the neutral starter stage being mutually agreed upon by method of a simple strike out system(suggested by another much earlier in this thread)- out of 5 neutral stages each person takes turns of crossing out one neutral stage until only 1 stage is left, and then they play on that. That, for example, would let a Ganon avoid Lylat for its tilting and Final Destination for its lack of platforms, while a ness or lucas avoids Yoshi's island for its uneven ground and possible recovery gimping support ghost, and Smashville for the opponents use of the moving platform. Then they'd play on Battlefield and everything is just perfect. Then the neutral starter stages aren't even considered random or subject to even the slightest amount of luck, even though they never had major differences or complicated components to start with!

This is win; congratulations on officially pwning me out of my life. You're pretty much right on, I suppose. Your idea ain't too bad either.

 

[Doggalina]

If mario circuit and BoE are considered optional counterpicks despite chaingrabbing off levels, then norfair should be considered optional despite insane amounts of stalling

if we can ban stalling under levels, stalling with infinites, and stalling with sonic's neutral b, why can't we ban stalling on norfair with pit, MK and JP?

Tether characters are in desperate need of a stage that fits their ever so needy needs

The only thing I see about the Norfair stall is that it would be hard to define. How many jumps ledge to ledge would qualify? What would differentiate simple movement from stalling?

 

[habaker91]

quite simply, if a player tries to stall combat excessively, he's commiting an infraction.
Running away from your opponent is pretty easy to spot, and can stopped very simply, like wobbling in melee.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

hm...well norfair's hazards don't kill really...
and if its camping/stalling thats a problem, then sonic can stall under stages 4 hours...
but don't ppl get penalized 4 dat!?

 

[x After Dawn x]

How do YOU think they decided it when Brinstar was counterpick- that "disrupted the match" with lava and Yoshi's Story was even Neutral which provided a ton of advantage for marth? You drilled some dude on not knowing the criteria for what makes a stage legal for tournaments when you yourself have no clue. How many times in this thread have people gone over, come up with reasons that so and so stage provided "an advantage to certain characters" only to be told "duh, that's the point of a counterpick."

...LOL!

Counterpicks are supposed to provide small advantages. It's when it gets out of hand or the natural metagame gets severely disrupted that a stage becomes a ban. I know the criteria for a ban, obviously you don't. Neutrals aren't meant to be completely fair or simple. No matter what stage you think of, it's always going to give certain characters advantages over others, so if neutral stages were only "fair" stages, then there's no such thing as a neutral stage. Neutral stages are meant to be stages in which they present no real threat to natural gaming; they pose no hazards and they will offer small advantages from some characters over others, but that's with every stage. There's nothing wrong with Yoshi's Story being a neutral in Melee, it's not a counterpick. And Brinstar is a counterpick as well. Deal with it.

hm...well norfair's hazards don't kill really...
and if its camping/stalling thats a problem, then sonic can stall under stages 4 hours...
but don't ppl get penalized 4 dat!?

It's banned in tournaments.

 

[Eten]

Stop making dumb and/ or flaming posts and just leave it alone. This isn't the topic to do it, grow up. Maybe in a few months, you'll look back and realized what you said was extremely ignorant.

You too, have obviously never been to a tournament, and I really doubt you know the critera between a counterpick and a ban.

So what makes a fair use of an ad hominem, hypocrite? There was nothing that wasn't legit in his post. If you don't want it, don't be an *** to others.

Counterpicks are supposed to provide small advantages, genius. It's when it gets out of hand or the natural metagame gets severely disrupted that a stage becomes a ban. I know the criteria for a ban, obviously you don't. Don't argue and say that the criteria is crap, because like I said before, you can't even come close to comparing your knowledge to the Smash Back Room's. Neutrals aren't meant to be completely fair or simple. No matter what stage you think of, it's always going to give certain characters advantages over others, so if neutral stages were only "fair" stages, then there's no such thing as a neutral stage. Neutral stages are meant to be stages in which they present no real threat to natural gaming; they pose no hazards and they will offer small advantages from some characters over others, but that's with every stage. There's nothing wrong with Yoshi's Story being a neutral in Melee, it's not a counterpick. And Brinstar is a counterpick as well. Deal with it.

Three things that's wrong here
How do you define a small advantage from a large advantage?
How do you define what is the "natural metagame"?
I didn't have a problem with Yoshi story or Brinstar, I was using them as examples to show how the criteria based on your own words was is in conflict with prior decisions of the broom. As seen here:

it's a matter of how the stage disrupts, affects, or gives advantages to certain people through gameplay, whether it be unfair hazards, stalling, camping, etc

And for good measure, for you to pick up on it, let me say that I know the criteria for a ban, and obviously you don't. Don't argue and say that the criteria is crap, because like I said before, you can't even come close to comparing your knowledge to the Smash Back Room's.

 

[habaker91]

hm...well norfair's hazards don't kill really...
and if its camping/stalling thats a problem, then sonic can stall under stages 4 hours...
but don't ppl get penalized 4 dat!?

Exactly...people do get penalized for sonic stalling, why can't the same be done for JP stalling?

 

[Doggalina]

Exactly...people do get penalized for sonic stalling, why can't the same be done for JP stalling?

JP stalling is harder to define. If you just do it a few times, it's just a form of movement. You're moving platform to platform.

 

[AlexX]

If mario circuit and BoE are considered optional counterpicks despite chaingrabbing off levels, then norfair should be considered optional despite insane amounts of stalling

I'm not sure it constitutes "insane" amounts of stalling when the only proof of it we have so far is that one video and no reports of it happening in tournaments.

Tether characters are in desperate need of a stage that fits their ever so needy needs

Somewhat off-topic, but why do we refer to them as "tether" recoveries? Zamus and Ivysaur do it with whips while the Zelda characters do it with chains, but I don't think any of the ones that do it use something that's actually referred to as a tether...

 

[fkacyan]

Somewhat off-topic, but why do we refer to them as "tether" recoveries? Zamus and Ivysaur do it with whips while the Zelda characters do it with chains, but I don't think any of the ones that do it use something that's actually referred to as a tether...

The Zelda characters have optional tethers, so they don't count. Olimar, Zero Suit, and Ivysaur use long objects to tether to the stage, and as such can be much more easily gimped because they're farther from the stage at the point of recovery, meaning that you can be hit off of the edge by them, and they still won't really have a chance of recovery.

 

[habaker91]

It is much easier to define than things like chain grabs and infinites...are they stalling the match? yes? then they're stalling.

Use common sense while defining what constitutes as stalling and what doesn't, it isnt that hard.

 

[x After Dawn x]

AlexX: Ice Climbers, Olimar, Zamus, etc.

 

[AlexX]

AlexX: Ice Climbers, Olimar, Zamus, etc.

The Zelda characters have optional tethers, so they don't count. Olimar, Zero Suit, and Ivysaur use long objects to tether to the stage, and as such can be much more easily gimped because they're farther from the stage at the point of recovery, meaning that you can be hit off of the edge by them, and they still won't really have a chance of recovery.

Apparently I didn't make my question clear... Sorry.

What I meant was, why are they called tether recoveries and not whip or chain recoveries? As far as I know, none of the characters that "tether" use a tether, but rather a rope, whip, or chain (or a snake, in the case of Lucas).

 

[x After Dawn x]

Are you referring "tethering" to how it was done in Melee? These recoveries could be considered chain recoveries, but since characters can no longer tether on any wall, we just call this tethering. Not sure if that answers your question, but I tried.

 

[hey no way]

my neutrals:
battlefield
deflino
final destination
lylat cruise
halberd
castle seige
smashville
yoshis island
and probably another one im missing

 

[Rhubarbo]

my neutrals:
battlefield
deflino
final destination
lylat cruise
halberd
castle seige
smashville
yoshis island
and probably another one im missing

Your username is pretty much my response to this list. Delfino has walk-offs, water. Halberd has a hazard which CAN KO. Those two are not neutral.

 

[wWw Dazwa]

Apparently I didn't make my question clear... Sorry.

What I meant was, why are they called tether recoveries and not whip or chain recoveries? As far as I know, none of the characters that "tether" use a tether, but rather a rope, whip, or chain (or a snake, in the case of Lucas).

Ever since this update:

http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/howto/technique/technique04.html

 

[clowsui]

dazwa did you ever post your list of neutrals/cps/bans? if so you should do it :D

 

[wWw Dazwa]

Neutral:
Halberd

Banned:
Everything else

>_>

It's a secret, I'll never tell.

 

[clowsui]

XD Dazwa, bein' secretive.

Also why are there no more vids of you playing Brawl besides the BARLW vid?

 

[wWw Dazwa]

There's a video of my Link and my Diddy Kong going up right this second actually.

They're fighting each other. With glitches.

But enough talk about me. Have at the stages!

 

[AlexX]

Your username is pretty much my response to this list. Delfino has walk-offs, water. Halberd has a hazard which CAN KO. Those two are not neutral.

You can DI out of the laser on Halberd before the knockback frames kick in. The walk-offs are temporary at Delfino, so if your opponent insists on camping on one side, you can just wait 20 seconds for it to change. I don't see how water is that bad either, as it's never affected my battles positively or negatively, but if you really think it's an issue they also just last 20 seconds before the stage takes off again.

 

[habaker91]

this thread seems to have deteriorated to a discussion over what makes a neutral, what makes a counterpick, etc

But could someone tell me why it would be so hard to ban JP stalling on Norfair?
Its kinda easy to tell if they're trying to stall or not...

 

[Mic_128]

The JP Stall isn't a broken technique. If it is, prove it is by winning tournaments with it.

 

[habaker91]

^win

Norfair should at least be an optional CP

 

[meresilence0]

Look, WTF is everyone boo-hooing over stages that they most likely have never played in tourneys? Rhubarbo, you have to be a friggin' ****** in order to get hit by anything on Halberd. I'm assuming you have, which makes me sad. Boo-frickin'-Hoo if you suck that bad.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

wat about green hill zone?
the hazards are very easy to avoid and rarely ever kill!
also, although it has walk off edges, the sloped terrain makes hit hard to cg across the level, AND gives a bit of cover from someone waiting by the edge...

im changing the conversation so i don't hear any more about "tethers"! ITS STAGE LEGALITY DISCUSSION!
move that conversation somewhere else!