Charizard92
Smash Champion
- Joined
- May 13, 2008
- Messages
- 2,207
I thought that PS2 wasn't ban worthy. Gee, if it was really that annoying, there are worse out there.
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Official Stage Legality Discussion
- Thread starter Mic_128
- Start date
- Status
Grandeza
Smash Master
That's Thio lol. So pokemon stadiums been dismissed as a neutral? Anyone wanna give me a recap on why. Haven't been keeping up lately I guess.
MysticKenji
Smash Master
That's actually not completely true.
It pretty much depends on what the changes do the level.
For example, no one complains that much about the platform/Support Ghosts on Yoshi's Island [Brawl], because they'll generally have very little effect on the match.
The Pokemon Stadiums on the other hand...
Charizard92
Smash Champion
- Joined
- May 13, 2008
- Messages
- 2,207
No you (put insult here)! It was because the Rock and Fire stages allow for temporary wall infinites! If it was just the windmill, I'd be still yelling at you guys now!
Charizard92
Smash Champion
- Joined
- May 13, 2008
- Messages
- 2,207
What, you mean Lylat cruise? I don't think one character can ban a stage, more like one character can use something better than a few others. That makes more sense.
DuskMarthWater
Dude.
Hmmm...well, mainly because no one's brought up a point that you just vaguely stated. Show us a video or at LEAST explain why Wolf can make this stage banned please.
Yea...that makes more sense. However, in Melee I'm pretty sure Fox was the only character who could waveshine, and I'm pretty sure he was the only one who could walk people to their doom on walk-off ledges like Yoshi's Island. Plus the edge was on a hill, making wavedashing super easy. So Fox was the cause of some stages being banned. And he was the only cause.
Yea...that makes more sense. However, in Melee I'm pretty sure Fox was the only character who could waveshine, and I'm pretty sure he was the only one who could walk people to their doom on walk-off ledges like Yoshi's Island. Plus the edge was on a hill, making wavedashing super easy. So Fox was the cause of some stages being banned. And he was the only cause.
Charizard92
Smash Champion
- Joined
- May 13, 2008
- Messages
- 2,207
Wait a minute, I elaborated this all the time earlier. The problems with any walk offs are the fact that they are real easy to KO somebody with. Throws, smashes, chaingrabs, the list is long.
MysticKenji
Smash Master
Just use your personal ban on it, and you'll be fine.
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
k. My two cents here.
Good list, Erich. You've always been the most wise in the topic, and your lists reflect that.
I'll start with Distant Planet...wasn't it already discussed that it should be a counterpick? I mean, the walk-off ledge on the far left isn't that bad at all. If you don't want to get chaingrabbed off of it, just don't move there. =\ Anybody who waits for you there will slide off due to the rain, really. The Bulborb is overrated (half of the time, it doesn't even open its mouth, and it doesn't close its mouth until you touch its tongue). Now, speaking objectively, the stage itself does not meet the criteria for a ban. The stage is actually probably closer to being a neutral than being banned.
I think Green Hill Zone should move into the Recommended: Ban, Optional: Counterpick section. I mean it's closer to being banned than Yoshi's Island (Melee), and YI M is in the Recommended: Ban, Optional: Counterpick section. Likewise, all it takes is one shield grab from a chaingrabber to get a kill (the slants aid in chaingrabbing), and there's also the issue with the breaking ground and the checkpoint marker. There's also apparently a glitch on the level, but I'm not aware of it yet.
Jungle Japes, as you put, should stay in counterpick. I don't care what others say about the crocodile. That crocodile just prevents people from stalling the game by hanging around edges, it's really not that bad. If you die from it, then that could be a bad thing, but that's basically one of the two things that would make it a counterpick. Other than the river and the crocodile, it could possibly be a neutral stage.
Hanenbow...I don't know, really. I was always a bit pro-CP with this one, but as of late, I've been leaning towards a ban. The stage is just too...not Smash Bros.-like. Not visually, but mechanically. There's no main-main-main platform that holds everything together, and the slanted platforms like such on the left of the level make it hard to recover. In addition, stalling is an issue on it, Sonic can get gimped up by the glitch on it, and Ness and Lucas can also get gimped if their PK Thunder hits the tree on the left of the stage (which is basic recovery).
I also think Bridge of Eldin and Mario Circuit should be banned for obvious walk-off blastzones. But even without them, Bridge of Eldin would still probably be banned for a lot of other reasons, which include stalling and camping (the stage is huge, and provides over-advantages for projectile spammers like Falco), the bomb (which can be abused for KOs), and the breaking of the center of the stage (promotes stalling and camping even more).
Finally, I'll have a nab at Norfair and Corneria...obviously, Norfair has been chosen as a ban for stalling and for the reason that characters must "fight the stage", and Corneria has been banned for slight stalling and/ or camping and the wall infinites. Which brings me to my next point; if these stages were banned in singles (which they most probably could be), why could they not be counterpick in doubles? Corneria is a perfect stage for doubles. The stage is generally large, but in doubles, it's not too big and not too small, it still works. As for the wall infinites...they won't work when your partner can just come along and gimp the wall-infiniter up. And for Norfair? The stage's size and design promotes stalling in singles, but again, it's not an issue in doubles, and the stage promotes more strategy in doubles. Because it's a 2 on 2 instead of 1 on 1, doubles often don't even focus on the stage's elements such as its fire, but instead, players tend to just fight without the stage's elements bothering them too much. I'm not really sure how to explain it, but I can definitely say that stalling is not an issue on it.
Edit: There was no sarcasm in those first two lines I wrote.
Lucas's PK Thunder won't get eaten by hitting a leaf, Sonic's glitch is only unavoidable if you don't stop him from spinning, although he and Ness players can just use their personal ban on it if it's really that big a deal (although Ness's strong suit is his airgame, so I think the stage would probably help him more than hurt him).
I don't have much experience with Corneria, but unless I missed something, the only video of stalling at Norfair was one that was clearly set-up. The ledgestalling has to stop after a little bit due to the lava, and when that happens you can take advantage of the opportunity.
DuskMarthWater
Dude.
Thanks Dawn. I try.
You're input is always appreciated. There's a lot in that post. I think I'll be moving Green Hill Zone to the aforementioned section. And I'm considering some other stuff, but that probably won't happen for a little while. I need more opinions from others first. Again, thanks.
And I'll make a couple of updates soon.
You're input is always appreciated. There's a lot in that post. I think I'll be moving Green Hill Zone to the aforementioned section. And I'm considering some other stuff, but that probably won't happen for a little while. I need more opinions from others first. Again, thanks.
Ummm...yea, pretty sure you missed something. That match was definitely NOT set up to look like that, that was just a match we did on Norfair to show my friend Alphabravo the BS that happens there. Lava? Who cares! Jiggs can just float underneath the stage to the other side when the lava rises from the side. And when it comes from underneath...do I even have to explain it? The lava wave? Well, you can chase me, but I'll just air dodge the wave and you'll probably get hit for chasing me and I'll continue stalling like nothing happened. Wow!! We so didn't get anywhere still! How many times am I gonna have to say it? This stage promotes camping like CRAZY. Plus anyone can do it, to an extent. You just jump from platform to platform. You are right that the camping has to stop then with the lava for most characters, but for characters like Jiggs, MK, Pitt, or Kirby it doesn't stop. EVER.
And I'll make a couple of updates soon.
Then why did Wolf not take advantage of the times Jiggly stopped?
You're doing a lot of theorycrafting, but there's a major difference between theory and practice, and if it doesn't happen in actual competitions, then clearly it isn't a problem.
DuskMarthWater
Dude.
No? First though, Sinz was playing Jiggs and my Jiggs is a LOT better than his is. If that match were me, it would probably have been a better one to illustrate the point. My friend Alpha doesn't play Wolf, so I have no control over him. I don't know why he picked Wolf either. If you like, I could get a match of it from the monthly tournament I am going to next Saturday. Would that help? That is, after all, in a tournament match and would probably prove the point better. Besides, you may still be right. The practice of it works with my friends, but it may not work so well in tournament, though I doubt it. I'm pretty confident it's gonna work in tourney as well. I don't know though, it may turn out like a Melee Corneria for Brawl. We'll see, and I'll get back to you on that next week Alex.
They have these magical things called invincibility frames. Plus, Wolf running around is slower than Jiggs going from edge to edge.
Charizard92
Smash Champion
- Joined
- May 13, 2008
- Messages
- 2,207
Any videos of this?
Mr. Rogu
Smash Ace
ive seen a couple tourney stage lists and both of them said that pictochat is a counterpick. how??? that place is so gimmicky its not even funny. it should be banned. period.
Patinator
Smash Champion
I've been thinking over it a lot and... If I ever held a tournament, this would be the legal stages list.
Legal:
Battlefield
Banned:
All others.
Battlefield is the closest to fair you can get. And now that I think about it, isn't it possible that counterpicks would give a lesser player an advantage over a slightly better one? I'm not exactly a know-it-all on counterpicking, so maybe I'm wrong, but still. For example, counterpicking FD against Bowser/Ganondorf when you're Pit/Fox/Falco?
Ignoring that, though, I'd agree with Mr. Rogu. And even though most of the hazards cause little damage, as Yuna said about Food in tournaments, "...those little percents could mean the difference between a KO and a possible recovery.". Or something similar.
Legal:
Battlefield
Banned:
All others.
Battlefield is the closest to fair you can get. And now that I think about it, isn't it possible that counterpicks would give a lesser player an advantage over a slightly better one? I'm not exactly a know-it-all on counterpicking, so maybe I'm wrong, but still. For example, counterpicking FD against Bowser/Ganondorf when you're Pit/Fox/Falco?
Ignoring that, though, I'd agree with Mr. Rogu. And even though most of the hazards cause little damage, as Yuna said about Food in tournaments, "...those little percents could mean the difference between a KO and a possible recovery.". Or something similar.
Charizard92
Smash Champion
- Joined
- May 13, 2008
- Messages
- 2,207
Talk about stupidly small. In case you remember, while all stage have problems, we allow some of them to be legal, and you forgot the CP category.
Patinator
Smash Champion
No I didn't. It doesn't exist.
I'm not saying this SHOULD be done. One stage for all tournaments? Ick.
But at the same time, if you only play on Battlefield, that means that you'll be playing on the fairest stage.
Compare it to all of the other Neutral stage.
Final Destination is essentially the most controvertial; larger than normal, and flat. Plus now it has the edges, which hinder vertical recoveries.
Yoshi's Island has the randomly tilting platform in the middle, possibly saving a person from a hit. Plus the Support Ghost randomly stops Ness/Lucas's PK Thunder, and saves people from spikes or a missed edge.
Lylat Cruise has the tilting.
Smashville...
Now that I think of it, it doesn't seem Smashville has any problems either...
I just thought I'd bring this up. As I said, Counter-picking could give a slightly worse player an advantage; Fox vs. Bowser on FD for example.
...Maybe I'm just being paranoid/too strict.
Wrath`
Smash Master
I do agree that BF is the fairest, and FD is not fair due to brawls camping be great on open spaces, but i like more stages ro play not less, we will just have to adapt.
Charizard92
Smash Champion
- Joined
- May 13, 2008
- Messages
- 2,207
Agreed on the last bit, only two stages, there isn't really any diversity in that. Besides, at the rate you were going, I'd call it paranoia/strictness too.
The whole point of a counterpick is to give the character you're playing as a slight advantage over the opponent. Slight advantages shouldn't be enough to ban.
smashbro29
Smash Champion
But FD isn't a counter-pick it's a Random Neutral.
Charizard92
Smash Champion
- Joined
- May 13, 2008
- Messages
- 2,207
There is an hot debate on that one. Some people are so annoyed by the Brawl version they are trying to make it a CP.
"Gimicky" is not a banable reason. Pictochat isn't too hazardous, and has nothing broken about it.
Battlefield couldn't be considered "them most fair". There is no guide to reference that describes what is objectively the "most fair". Why couldn't Corneria be the "fairest"? The differences are always arbitrary.
Effectively playing a tournament with ONLY battlefield could work, however. But this doesn't make the tournament "more fair". You basically put forth at the beginning that to win this tournament you need to be good on THIS stage. You are simply arbitrarily defining battlefield the stage to play. And that is certainly an OK thing to do.
However I think for the purpose of this discussion, we need to look at all the stages in the widest scope and objective manner, where our single goal is to provide a set of stages that makes Brawl playable competitively, which provides a reliable standard for tournament managers. So we want to eliminate things like luck and fox firing lasers and then running around a giant loop for 7 minutes.
Effectively playing a tournament with ONLY battlefield could work, however. But this doesn't make the tournament "more fair". You basically put forth at the beginning that to win this tournament you need to be good on THIS stage. You are simply arbitrarily defining battlefield the stage to play. And that is certainly an OK thing to do.
However I think for the purpose of this discussion, we need to look at all the stages in the widest scope and objective manner, where our single goal is to provide a set of stages that makes Brawl playable competitively, which provides a reliable standard for tournament managers. So we want to eliminate things like luck and fox firing lasers and then running around a giant loop for 7 minutes.
Patinator
Smash Champion
Well, going by competitive standards, one would think the fairest stage would be one that is not completely flat, isn't very big, and doesn't have any kind of gimmick, like the Arwings on Corneria. Even if you introduce one of those, aside from hazards, you give certain characters disadvantages and advantages, taking away from its fairness. Battlefield and Smashville are as close to we can possibly get to "fairness" by competitive standards, I think.
Well, thank you. I don't see what's so hard about being good on such a basic stage, but...
I suppose that's true. It's just, imagine this: some Dedede or Falco player counter-picks a stage like, say, Castle Siege after getting two-stocked or so on Battlefield. They wait till the first transition and the second tier, and take off about two stocks with chain grabs, giving a worse player an advantage over a better.
That's the thing I see wrong with counter-picking. But one person can't change the world.
Also, at smashbro29: I thought you could counter-pick neutrals? If not, then I guess I better shut up now.
Ulevo
Smash Master
No stage is absolutely neutral. Even Battlefield has characters that excel on it more so than most other stages, such as Marth. That is the entire point of random neutrals; so a player isn't guaranteed an advantage just by who they pick on the first round.
Also, a "better" player is unlikely to lose from King Dedede on Castle Siege by being CG'd across the field. The only vulnerable moment is during the transformations which are very temporary. The statue area is large, and has platforms to avoid this as well.
Also, a "better" player is unlikely to lose from King Dedede on Castle Siege by being CG'd across the field. The only vulnerable moment is during the transformations which are very temporary. The statue area is large, and has platforms to avoid this as well.
Except if the player who lost two stocks were actually better than the opponent, they would have
1. Noticed the character/stage combination
2. Would get ready as soon as he noticed the stage transition happening
3. Would camp like hell until another stage transition started. There's lots of platforms so it's not too hard.
Stage knowledge and the ability to apply that stage knowledge is an important skill, one that should not be thrown out of the game.
smashbro29
Smash Champion
Allow for complete honesty right now I totally forgot what I was thinking when I posted that.Also, at smashbro29: I thought you could counter-pick neutrals? If not, then I guess I better shut up now.
Charizard92
Smash Champion
- Joined
- May 13, 2008
- Messages
- 2,207
The rules are the random thing chooses a neutral stage, then the loser picks any legal stage, then, if it goes this far, the loser of the second round picks a legal stage. the most recent post by Erich are typically the most accurate.
Machiavelli.CF
Ivy of the West
- Joined
- Apr 24, 2008
- Messages
- 757
- Location
- Orange County, CA
- NNID
- Machiavelli.CF
- 3DS FC
- 3222-5675-4966
well with cg ing almost all stages are banned...that means either let stages like skyworld, and luigi's mansion be legal...or bann cg ing! (like: no grabbing throwing #of times in a row, to where the opponent cannot escape!
Charizard92
Smash Champion
- Joined
- May 13, 2008
- Messages
- 2,207
A: both Ideas are stupid
B: That isn't the only reason why Walk-offs are illegal! hasn't anyone read my posts on them!
B: That isn't the only reason why Walk-offs are illegal! hasn't anyone read my posts on them!
Patinator
Smash Champion
True...Ulevo said:
True...Dazwa said:
[QUOTE="Smashbro29]Allow for complete honesty right now I totally forgot what I was thinking when I posted that. [/QUOTE]
And LOL.
Now I know what a pwning feels like XD. All of the above are right, I didn't know characters like Marth had advantages on Battlefield.
Well, I've done enough to throw everyone off here... Sorry.
DuskMarthWater
Dude.
It's cool. Anyways, people CP on neutral stages all the time. Seriously, in Melee people rarely picked stages other than the neutrals. Battlefield was good against Space Animals. Yoshi's Story was amazing for Marth, etc. See? Neutral stages can give advantages to players too. It's just a stage to choose at random, after that it's any body's guess what stage is next. Marth had an advantage on 3 of them, Falco had an advantage on 2 of them, Samus had an advantage on one of them, Fox was downsized on one of them, etc. Neutral stages aren't always fair, it's true. Deal.
- Status