Official Stage Legality Discussion

[Charizard92]

BoE I understand now, thanks.
Corneria is reccomended banned because it's small right? I figured Onett was roughly the same size.

Nope, more like that wall on the right traps people, and due to it's concave shape, it traps people easier than against a vertical wall.

This is the shape of the fin

/
\

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

NEUTRAL

Smashville (Perfect balance)
Battlefield (favours those who love platforms... but otherwise great)
Yoshi's Island (VERY balanced, though uneven floors and savior platforms keep it from being the most neutral)
Final Destination (Edges kill some recoveries and favors characters who don't like platforms)

NEUTRAL-CP

Delfino Plaza(some pitstops are less than fair... but they pass, also, glitchiness occasionally sucks you under the stage O.O)
Pictochat (some hazards are harsh... but you can normally just wait them out.)
Luigi's Mansion (has some ceilings in places and gives advantages to characters who like platform chasing, and pillars can prolong attacks for benifit or dtriment... but even with all that, it can play fairly neutral... definitely no WORSE than a counterpick)
Pokemon stadium if only it had Pokemon Stadium 2' edges.... <_<

CP

Castle Siege (2nd phase has walkoffs and transormation time occasionally saves or dooms)
Frigate Orpheon (ungrabable ledge and occasional stage flip offer some OBVIOUS disadvantages to certain characters.)
Lylat Cruise(tilting DESTROYS some characters)
Pirate Ship (water and lots of stage hazards... but it's not that bad really)
Distant Planet only one walkoff and it's on a slant, rain is screwy and flowers can stop projectiles... otherwise not that bad
Brinstar It has Acid
Green Greens Wind, apples, blocks and small borders.... but really it's not very bad.. Explosion glitch is rare and, thus far, cannot be activated intentionally
Jungle japes water and side platforms making some attacks auto tether are the only thing keeping this from being neutral
Yoshi's Island (Melee) similar story to Disatant planet... it's not neutral... but it's not awful

CP-BANNED

Green Hill Zone Campy... but banning it depends on director's view of walkoffs and chain throw rules.
Bridge of Eldin See above
Mario Circuit See above
Onett See Above
Norfair (really... the stage hazards are easier to avoid and less deadly than those on battleship halberd <_<)
Battleship Halberd (easy to camp under main platform and some KILLER stage hazzards)
Sky World (as neutral as it LOOKS, i doesn't take long to see that it doesn't PLAY neutral... but it also doesn't seem awful enough to be banned)
Corneria It's ALWAYS played WAAAAAYYY to campy. Some characters just make a home under the wing and you can't get them out

BANNED (they really require no explanation)

Pokemon Stadium 2 (Oh god, ground form has a wall, Ice form causes tripping and sliding, Electic form has gay conveyer belts, Flying form has wind... I've been arguing with Omnigamer since day ONE that this stage should be banned but NOOOO he insisted it would be neutral... didn't take long to prove him wrong though.)
Spear Pillar (**** Palkia)
Wario Ware
75M
Flat Zone
Hanabow
Mario Bros.
New Pork City
Port Town Aero Drive
Rumble Falls
Shadow Moses Island
Summit.. once again... looks neutral.. but sliding and no grabable edges along with killer fish... no thanks
Big Blue
Rainbow Cruise slight changes have made this stage LESS playable... it might be team legal... but I couldn't make it legal in singles
Temple

 

[x After Dawn x]

Sonic, please refrain from posting other stage lists, we have one that everybody is debating on and it's fine as it is. Thank you.

This.

PS1 Fire Stage, from a tactical standpoint, forces you to stay on your side of the stage should you end up on opposite sides of the tree unless you're Mew2King. It is suicide for either player to go onto the other's side because the other person has a huge advantage (i.e. they can deal a free 40-50%).

I admit, it doesn't disrupt play as bad as the conveyer belts, but all you have to do is just ledgecamp or camp on the edges until its over, really. The electric stage is no real reason to make it CP...the Ice stage on the other hand...

What? Okay, first of all, I have never, ever seen a match where two people stall because of the tree. I have no idea why you're saying how it's "suicidal" to go to the other side, because it's not. That's basically saying that, on Final Destination, it is suicide to run into your opponent offensively. It's not. I guess I could say "learn how to tech", but first of all, the lack of hitstun would prevent somebody being combo'd in that corner, which automatically refutes your argument. Secondly, PS1 is no longer neutral because you can infinite against the wall, which only helps with my argument that it is counterpick / ban-worthy. Thirdly...what does the tree even have to do with the electric transformation? There's no wall in the electric transformation...perhaps you'd be better off comparing it with something else. As for the "ledgecamping"...that doesn't work so well in Brawl and you can easily get spiked when attempting to do this. I'm not saying that the electric transformation automatically warrants the entire stage a ban, but it does help in reasoning its placement on the list, and it does meet the criteria of a ban (stalling, camping, disrupting gameplay, etc.).

I just checked the thread (redirected from another topic) and I'm not about to read 131 pages to find an answer. Anyway I'm wondering about After Dawn's list... Why is Onett counterpick while Bridge of Eldin is recommended banned?

Onett has changed a lot from back in the Melee days. First of all, the argument that the cars kill players has already been dismissed as tests were conducted and the community has discovered that, even at 999 %, the cars cannot KO anybody. This means that these cars simply prevent wall infinites from happening. The wall infinites are also easier to avoid in this stage due to the large amount of platforms and the fact that there is a small platform above the right side of the left house, which allows you to possibly DI over it and tech safely. Finally, many people haven't noticed, but with the augmented size of characters in Brawl compared to Melee, the stage is no longer a horizontal cave of life / "wall-tech city." Also, although the stage may favor non-projectilers (which makes this a great counterpick stage), the fact that the stage constantly changes (the middle platforms collapsing) helps create a fair environment. Unless somebody can prove my arguments wrong or find reasoning in which it meets the criteria for a ban, I'm keeping it in the Recommended Conterpick, Optional Ban section because it is definitely debatable, but I'm going to need some evidence for it to be a solid ban.

Well, it's like I said a while ago, PS2 is an incredibly annoying stage. But so far, nothing truly ban worthy has popped up. I hate the electric part, which gives advantages to fliers, and so does the wind, and so does the ice actually(in a way). Why? Because they can just jump around and attack from the air without slipping. On electric, they can just float around over the conveyor belts, and on wind...do I even have to explain it? I guess that would be a good reason for it to stay CP. I'm not sure though, mostly because I hate the stage personally.

This is true, and although this favorability towards aerial characters would make the stage a great counterpick, the problem is that it doesn't just do this; it penalizes and punishes ground characters who decide not to. Let's take Link, for example. If Link wanted to launch projectiles by reverse short hopping into a neutral B or side B on the electric stage, he would be off the stage shortly after he landed. From here, this can be entirely abused by the opposing character. What about pivoters on the ice transformation? If I wanted to dash into a true pivot and then cancel it with a smash, my character would simply slide freely into your character. What about the flying transformation? The inability to land means that anybody with Mr. Game and Watch or ROB can simply juggle their opponent continuously. Doesn't this change the entire strategy of the metagame? If this creates too much unfairness between characters, I feel it should warrant a ban.

Okay, I'll take a breather and update the list:

Battlefield Recommended: Random Starter
Final Destination Recommended: Random Starter
Lylat Cruise Recommended: Random Starter
Smashville Recommended: Random Starter
Yoshi's Island Brawl Recommended: Random Starter

Brinstar Recommended: Counterpick
Castle Siege Recommended: Counterpick
Delfino Plaza Recommended: Counterpick
Distant Planet Recommended: Counterpick
Frigate Orpheon Recommended: Counterpick
Green Greens Recommended: Counterpick
Halberd Recommended: Counterpick
Luigi's Mansion Recommended: Counterpick
PictoChat Recommended: Counterpick
Pokemon Stadium Recommended: Counterpick
Rainbow Cruise Recommended: Counterpick

Jungle Japes Recommended: Counterpick Optional: Banned
Onett Recommended: Counterpick Optional Banned

Corneria Recommended: Banned Optional: Counterpick
Hanenbow Recommended: Banned Optional: Counterpick
Norfair Recommended: Banned Optional: Counterpick
Pirate Ship Recommended: Banned Optional: Counterpick
Pokemon Stadium 2 Recommended: Banned Optional: Counterpick
Yoshi's Island Melee Recommended: Banned Optional: Counterpick

75 m Recommended: Banned
Big Blue Recommended: Banned
Bridge of Eldin Recommended: Banned
Flat Zone 2 Recommended: Banned
Green Hill Zone Recommended: Banned
Rumble Falls Recommended: Banned
Mario Bros. Recommended: Banned
Mario Circuit Recommended: Banned
Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1 Recommended: Banned
Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2 Recommended: Banned
New Pork City Recommended: Banned
Port Town Aero Dive Recommended: Banned
Shadow Moses Island Recommended: Banned
Skyworld Recommended: Banned
Spear Pillar Recommended: Banned
Summit Recommended: Banned
Temple Recommended: Banned
WarioWare, Inc. Recommended: Banned

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

No way Lylat cruise shoul be neutral... a LOT of characters hate it.. the tilting stage and hard to recover ledges KILL charcters.

And I'll post my own list if I want. It's your choice whether you pay any attention to it or not.

 

[habaker91]

Could someone explain problems with Yoshi's Island Melee?
The walk off can only be used on one half of the stage, the slope makes it harder to chaingrab, and the the cave of life breaks with use.

 

[AtticusFinch]

Well in PS2, if your charging DDD's jet hammer, and tap the analog left or right over and over fast while in the ice conditions, he goes faster than his full running speed, i don't know if this has already been explored or if it's nothing to ban over, I just wanted to point out that PS2 is currently the only non baned stage with iced floors.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Well in PS2, if your charging DDD's jet hammer, and tap the analog left or right over and over fast while in the ice conditions, he goes faster than his full running speed, i don't know if this has already been explored or if it's nothing to ban over, I just wanted to point out that PS2 is currently the only non baned stage with iced floors.

I say it needs o be banned. While it's in normal form, it's great but from fairest to least fair:
- Ground Form: has a wall... yay infinite comboes?
- Ice Form: increased tripping rate, sliding makes some Usmash's become WAY better than they should be (ike and Lucas come to mind)
- Electric Form: hey... hey don't you camp under the main pltform? and, if you have a slow run speed... prepare to get reamed by the conveyer belts
-Flying Form: low gravity... oh no!

 

[Charizard92]

Ack, how many of you actually hate PS2 to your gut and that's the reason you are trying to ban the stage. PS2 is a tournament legal stage due to the fact that the word ban is only being screamed out to those who hate it. Here is each stage at a glance.

Normal: this is obviously the most neutral, and most common stage form.
Ground: the nicest of the alt stages, but the wall does create problems, how big is up to debate (not that big)
Ice: to be fair, I have little to no problem with tripping on ice, the most problems I get is from the lack of friction making me to work on timing to make attacks hit.
Electric: The conveyor belts are annoying I understand, but they are rarely gamebreaking. I still can't use them to gimp or KO an opponent. Even poor recovery Ivysaur can survive them.
Flying: the stage decreases gravity, so what, it only gives aerial opponents more hang time and grounded opponents an aerial option (depends on the character whether or not to take it).

Each stage form is in comparison to a stage form from PS1, so I'll do just that:

PS1: Neutral = PS2: Neutral
PS1: grass = PS2: ground
PS1: Water = PS2: Ice
PS1: Fire = PS2: Electric
PS1: Rock= PS2: Flying

Essentially, I can compare each stage from PS2 to PS1, which we all agree is CP.

Explanation for each:
Normal to Normal: it's the same stage
Grass to Ground: They are basically even, although the ground has a wall that is questionable...
Water to Ice: the Water form has an annoying windmill that has caused questions, and the Ice has a friction loss that is up to question.
Fire to Electric: The fire stage has a wall and a cave on the right that can pin down someone, while the electric stage has conveyor belts that funnel people down, on their own, CP/Banned material
Rock to Flying: The Rock stage has walls and platforms everywhere, while the flying has nothing but a loss of gravity. These are the two nightmare forms of each stage.

Now you get it? or do I need to make a second post.

 

[Nodrak]

- Ground Form: has a wall... yay infinite comboes?
- Ice Form: increased tripping rate, sliding makes some Usmash's become WAY better than they should be (ike and Lucas come to mind)
- Electric Form: hey... hey don't you camp under the main pltform? and, if you have a slow run speed... prepare to get reamed by the conveyer belts
-Flying Form: low gravity... oh no!

Ground:
Delfino Plaza, forms walls
Pictochat, forms walls
Pokemon stadium, forms wall
Pirate Ship, forms wall

Point is, none of them last forever.

Electric:
Why would you run on the belt? Jump!
It limits you to one small area sure... well what about norfair? It does the same thing. Any combination of lava will do the same thing. Lava from underneath + Lava from the side and congrats, you're down to one platform. Side lava + the spouts and you're very limited.

Flying:
What's wrong with low grav? Pirate ship has it. It just means you'll take a second or two longer to fall. It's not really that bad.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Ground:
Delfino Plaza, forms walls
Pictochat, forms walls
Pokemon stadium, forms wall
Pirate Ship, forms wall

Point is, none of them last forever.

Electric:
Why would you run on the belt? Jump!
It limits you to one small area sure... well what about norfair? It does the same thing. Any combination of lava will do the same thing. Lava from underneath + Lava from the side and congrats, you're down to one platform. Side lava + the spouts and you're very limited.

Flying:
What's wrong with low grav? Pirate ship has it. It just means you'll take a second or two longer to fall. It's not really that bad.

conveyer belt really causes problemf if you aren't in the center-middle of the stage. king of the mountain is NOT a fair stage.

Pirate ship's low gravity lasts for a VERY short time.. Flying stage's low gravity lasts for MUCH longer.. maybe 3x as long... maybe even longer.

Ground is not so bad, neither is normal... but ever other transformation is.

And rock on the original is bad, but normally you can just wait it out for it to transform back.

 

[TehBo49]

The thing about PS2 is that it changes so you won't be stuck in one environment forever. This, I think, saves it from being banned.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

The thing about PS2 is that it changes so you won't be stuck in one environment forever. This, I think, saves it from being banned.

the thing is... ALL of it's transformations have some problem associated with them... the stage plays TERRRIBLY unfair for 3 of the 4 transformations... so it's like... about 30-40 percent of the stage plays like a banned stage... that's WAYYY too much IMO

 

[TehBo49]

PS1 plays like that too & it's still legal. None of the transformations (except maybe the flying one) are banworthy anyway.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

PS1 plays like that too & it's still legal. None of the transformations (except maybe the flying one) are banworthy anyway.

Conveyer belts are just BAD.. I'd say banworthy... and Ice is bad too, but not as bad.

PkMnS:1 has grass stage... which is COMPLETELY neutral.
Water's windmill is kinda gay, but it's not incredibly bad.
Fire stage has a wall... just like ground stage on PD:2 (which means that the 2nd WORST stage on PS:1 is about as bad as the BEST stage on PS:2)
Rock stage is awful... but at least it's wasy to just wait it out on opposite sides of the stage.

 

[TehBo49]

Conveyor belts are bad but can be dealt with. The majority of the cast isn't destroyed by them. Sliding usmashes on the ice stage aren't as bad as they seem. Most of the stages are playable so I don't think we should ban a stage that's fine 80% of the time.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Conveyor belts are bad but can be dealt with. The majority of the cast isn't destroyed by them. Sliding usmashes on the ice stage aren't as bad as they seem. Most of the stages are playable so I don't think we should ban a stage that's fine 80% of the time.

I'd say 50% of the time (when it's normal) it plays like a neutral

12.5% of the time (ground form) it plays like a conterpick

37.5% of the time (ice, electric and flying) it plays like a banned stage would.

that 37.5 is enough to ban the whole thing IMO




pokemon stadium 1, on the other hand, plays neutral 62.5% of the time (normal and grass)

25% of the time, plays like a counterpick (Fire and Water)

and only 12.5% of the time (rock) does it play like a banned stage

and that 12.5% is not only a much smaller amount, but also, the design of the rock form makes it REALLY easy to just camp at two opposite sides and wait for the stage to transform.

PkMnS:2's "banned" parts are NOT designed in that way... it's easy to exploit those advantages if they are advantages to you and hard to wait them out if they aren't

 

[TehBo49]

The ice stage is hardly banworthy & the electric one is debatable. It's actually possible to "camp" in the air on the flying although it's a bit risky.

 

[Charizard92]

I'd say 50% of the time (when it's normal) it plays like a neutral

12.5% of the time (ground form) it plays like a conterpick

37.5% of the time (ice, electric and flying) it plays like a banned stage would.

that 37.5 is enough to ban the whole thing IMO




pokemon stadium 1, on the other hand, plays neutral 62.5% of the time (normal and grass)

25% of the time, plays like a counterpick (Fire and Water)

and only 12.5% of the time (rock) does it play like a banned stage

and that 12.5% is not only a much smaller amount, but also, the design of the rock form makes it REALLY easy to just camp at two opposite sides and wait for the stage to transform.

PkMnS:2's "banned" parts are NOT designed in that way... it's easy to exploit those advantages if they are advantages to you and hard to wait them out if they aren't

Wrong, wrong wrong wrong wrong WRONG!

PS2 Neutral forms: Normal
PS2 CP forms: Ground & Ice
PS2 Borderline forms: electric
PS2 banned forms: Flying

PS1 Neutral forms: Normal & grass
PS1 CP forms: Water
PS1 Borderline forms: Fire
PS1 banned forms: Rock

So with PS2...
it is neutral 50% of the time
CP 25% of the time
and the rest is 12.5% of the time

While PS1...
is Neutral 62.5% of the time
and the rest 12.5% of the time each

you are way off.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Wrong, wrong wrong wrong wrong WRONG!

PS2 Neutral forms: Normal
PS2 CP forms: Ground & Ice
PS2 Borderline forms: electric
PS2 banned forms: Flying

PS1 Neutral forms: Normal & grass
PS1 CP forms: Water
PS1 Borderline forms: Fire
PS1 banned forms: Rock

So with PS2...
it is neutral 50% of the time
CP 25% of the time
and the rest is 12.5% of the time

While PS1...
is Neutral 62.5% of the time
and the rest 12.5% of the time each

you are way off.

your numbers don't even add up to 100

and, if fire form is borderline banned, then so is corneria since the tree is BARELY worse than the dirt mound on the ground form of Stadium 2. And is no worse than the wing of corneria.... so, yeah, Fire's fairness is roughly even with ground's fairness... which is the MOST fair transormation for PS2.. and ice is worse than fire will ever be.

 

[Charizard92]

your numbers don't even add up to 100

and, if fire form is borderline banned, then so is corneria since the tree is BARELY worse than the dirt mound on the ground form of Stadium 2. And is no worse than the wing of corneria.... so, yeah, Fire's fairness is roughly even with ground's fairness... which is the MOST fair transormation for PS2.. and ice is worse than fire will ever be.

A: you aren't good at math, the #s are...
50+25+12.5(2)
and...
62.5+12.5(3)

B:Tailfin, not wing

C: Ground's fairness is equal to Water's fairness, not fire's, and no matter how much you say the Ice stage is worse, it isn't. The lack of friction is more of a problem than the tripping, and it isn't that bad.

You are clearly biased

 

[TehBo49]

@ Charizard92: If anything, the water stage should be borderline. The fire stage isn't all that bad (still bad though).

@ StH: I'm actually thinking Corneria should be close to banned. My Pikachu loves camping on the right side & killing vertically at 70%.

 

[Charizard92]

@ Charizard92: If anything, the water stage should be borderline. The fire stage isn't all that bad (still bad though).

@ StH: I'm actually thinking Corneria should be close to banned. My Pikachu loves camping on the right side & killing vertically at 70%.

Yeahhh, no. The water stage is annoying, but it is not as bad as the fire stage, which isn't as bad as the rock stage. The Rock and Fire stage is the main reasons why PS1 is CP, water is more like a secondary reason.

 

[The Milk Monster]

Pokemon Stadium isn't Random anymore?
What happened?

And Corneria should be a borderline ban.
The part of the course with the jet booster is just screaming wall infinates, and the stage is like a campground.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

@ StH: I'm actually thinking Corneria should be close to banned. My Pikachu loves camping on the right side & killing vertically at 70%.

it was even WORSE in melee, bit it still was never banned... should have neen though

 

[x After Dawn x]

No way Lylat cruise shoul be neutral... a LOT of characters hate it.. the tilting stage and hard to recover ledges KILL charcters.

And I'll post my own list if I want. It's your choice whether you pay any attention to it or not.

First of all, I'm going to post a quote from somebody else to describe you:

Sigh...I have just FULLY realized something...and that is that when Brawl came out, a massive influx of new people joined Smashboards. I don't mean new to the Boards, I mean new to the truly competitive Smash scene. Man...it's gonna be a very, very long uphill battle to get anything right the first try in the stage legality discussion. I suppose the only way to remedy it is to let them all play the game at tourneys with these rules and stages legal. Once they get more adapted to the competitive scene, they'll start to shape up and understand that what they once thought was dumb. Oh well...

Your list is absolutely terrible. You do not know the criteria for a ban or a counterpick, and you obviously have no idea what you're talking about, even though you think you do. Lylat Cruise is neutral, it's not counterpick. We established that a while ago, and the fact that you think it's a definite counterpick, not even possibly neutral, shows that you are extremely biased and ignorant. And stop making new lists; they won't get this thread anywhere.

it was even WORSE in melee, bit it still was never banned... should have neen though

What? No, it wasn't. The only person who could wall infinite in Melee was Fox, and his IJC shines were so hard to pull off that they would only last for a few seconds, meaning that nobody could infinite. That's why Pokemon Stadium was a neutral (the fire transformation's wall didn't matter) and why Corneria was a counterpick. The only thing that's worse about Corneria in Melee is the stalling and camping, but that did not meet the criteria for a ban, nor does it now.

 

[The Milk Monster]

All of After Dawn's post is the truth.
Lylat should be neutral.
The only thing wrong with it is the ledges, and if you want to go into that topic, bump Final D down to Counterpick.
Considering some of the new stuff in Brawl compared to Melee, I would say Corneria falling under ban a lot more likely in Brawl then Melee.

 

[MK26]

Yes, I know this thread is very wary of noobs, and so no, I do not expect my opinion to matter much.

When Brawl came out, I intensely disliked PS2 very much. I found the stage hazards to be the party-loving brother to sensible PS1. However, yesterday I gave PS2 a chance, and I realized that it's not all bad.

Neutral: no problem
Transformation 1 - Ground: No problem

T2 - Ice: Slippery, but Kirby can jump...no problem

T3 - Flying: I jumped...and touched ground once (and my opponent none at all) in 30 seconds. Think of this scenario: You are down one stock and have gotten your opponent to 75% damage. There is a minute left on the clock. Flying stage pops up. Your opponent will get a free stall as time is winding down...this isn't good

T4 - Ground again: caught Samus in Kirby jab combo on wall...escaped in approx. 2 seconds (DI toward me to push me back, then back to wall) and I racked up 50%

T5 - Electric: took my chances with the conveyors. Did not work. Ducked in the middle. Successfully camped for 20 seconds.

In other words, we have a stall-prone flying stage, a camp-prone electric stage, and a ground stage that will rarely cause (temporary, but possibly enough for a kill) problems. Seems OK to me.

*Edit: at first, I wrote this up because I thought PS2 deserved a fighting chance. However, looking this over, it seems like a bit too much...the ground stage's wall and associated (semi)infinite combos just put it over the edge, no matter how unlikely they are. I personally don't find a problem with this stage when played for fun, but it just might be too much for a competitive environment.

 

[x After Dawn x]

All of After Dawn's post is the truth.
Lylat should be neutral.
The only thing wrong with it is the ledges, and if you want to go into that topic, bump Final D down to Counterpick.
Considering some of the new stuff in Brawl compared to Melee, I would say Corneria falling under ban a lot more likely in Brawl then Melee.

The ledges are pretty bad, but Melee's Battlefield had even worse edges and it was still neutral...yes, it's true that the ledges tip a lot in Lylat Cruise, but wouldn't that help you if they lowered? I supposed it could still mess you up, such as if you tried recovering with Fox's side B and it tilted, but like previously stated, Melee's Battlefield not only had bad ledges, but they were also very glitched and gimped players a lot...yet it was still neutral.

The thing about PS2 is that it changes so you won't be stuck in one environment forever. This, I think, saves it from being banned.

Except 3/4 of the transformations penalize non-aerial players, so it just changes from punishment to punishment for certain characters.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

The ledges are pretty bad, but Melee's Battlefield had even worse edges and it was still neutral...yes, it's true that the ledges tip a lot in Lylat Cruise, but wouldn't that help you if they lowered? I supposed it could still mess you up, such as if you tried recovering with Fox's side B and it tilted, but like previously stated, Melee's Battlefield not only had bad ledges, but they were also very glitched and gimped players a lot...yet it was still neutral.

I'm a Zelda main... and I know that Farore's wind can have a LOT of cooldown lag if you can't sweetspot the edge with it. it becomes VERY hard to sweetspot said ledge if the stage is tilting misjudge too low, and you die, misjudge to high and you get punished.. Other charcters I can think of immediately that suffer similarly are ness and lucas.

Also, the tilting stage presents its own problems. it cancels out low to the ground projectiles for one thing, and characters like ZSS who have some big disjointed hitboxes can really get screwed when their attack goes right through the floor.

if you play lylat cruise enough, with enough characters, you begin to se that it clearly gives some charcters more of an advatage than others. I see it along the same lines, really, as Luigi's mansion, Stadium 1 and Delfino Plaza. IT doesn't play neutral, but it plays fairly close to neutral in a lot of cases meaning that it should PROBABLY be a counterpick, but if the tourney director is dissatisfied with using only the 4 undeniably neutral stages, they have the potential to be bumped up

 

[TehBo49]

Except 3/4 of the transformations penalize non-aerial players, so it just changes from punishment to punishment for certain characters.

Which 3? I understand the electric one but the others are fine for ground oriented characters.

 

[ScubaF_ingSteve]

Except 3/4 of the transformations penalize non-aerial players, so it just changes from punishment to punishment for certain characters.

But isn't that why its counterpick, not neutral. Aren't counterpicks suppose to give the person who picked it an advantage over the other player?

 

[The Milk Monster]

Yeah Battlefield in Melee's edge's were so unreliable, no lie.
But I won't deny the fact of Sonic's argument of Zelda's upb easily being gimped by the tilting stage.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Which 3? I understand the electric one but the others are fine for ground oriented characters.

Flying and ice as well

But isn't that why its counterpick, not neutral. Aren't counterpicks suppose to give the person who picked it an advantage over the other player?

the question is more on how extreme the advantages are in this case. I guess.

Yeah Battlefield in Melee's edge's were so unreliable, no lie.
But I won't deny the fact of Sonic's argument of Zelda's upb easily being gimped by the tilting stage.

yeah.. but new final destination has melee battlefield's ledges of awful.. and at least it doesn't tilt.
As you said... the tilting can gimp Zelda's recovery... should a neutral stage be able to gimp anything?

 

[The Milk Monster]

@Sonic:
Well I suppose that is true, they shouldn't gimp anything, but a lot of courses will gimp in some way shape or form, so I guess we gotta' settle for what they gave us.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

@Sonic:
Well I suppose that is true, they shouldn't gimp anything, but a lot of courses will gimp in some way shape or form, so I guess we gotta' settle for what they gave us.

the true neutrals (in order from most to least neutral: Smashville, Battlefield, Yoshi's Island, Final destination) gimp fewer people on fewer occasions... and they don't have the additional problems with the stage's constant tilt. Basically, this stage gives an unfair advatage to charcters who have good recoveries AND who don't mind landing on the stage with thier recovery (snake, MK, and ROB come to mind RIGHT away) The stage is far from bannable, but, while it may APPEAR neutral on the surface, it just screws up enough people I think that it really deserves to be a counterpick...

I know it is the one free ban I'd call as a Zelda main.

 

[TehBo49]

@StH: Flying doesn't hurt ground based characters unless your opponent is stalling in the air (even then, every character has some way of going after them). You don't have to jump into the air. In fact, if their aerial game is that bad, they'll hardly ever need to leave the ground in the first place.

How does the ice stage encourage aerial combat? The reverse is more true as you brought up a few posts ago (sliding usmash).

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

@StH: Flying doesn't hurt ground based characters unless your opponent is stalling in the air (even then, every character has some way of going after them). You don't have to jump into the air. In fact, if their aerial game is that bad, they'll hardly ever need to leave the ground in the first place.

How does the ice stage encourage aerial combat? The reverse is more true as you brought up a few posts ago (sliding usmash).

If you are hit INTO the air in the flying stage... it becomes VERY hard to reach the ground again unless you posess a stall-then-fall as a result, any character that posesses a weak airgame is VERY disadvantaged here as they are at the mercy of more aerially adept charcters. Whereas they could NORMALLY just airdodge to the ground, now they can't.

as for Ice... I don't think it prootes aerial battle so much as the fact that those who stay in the air are not affected negatively by the lack of traction or the increased tripping rate NEAR as much as those who stay ground-bound.

besides this... tripping is just bad.

 

[x After Dawn x]

I'm a Zelda main... and I know that Farore's wind can have a LOT of cooldown lag if you can't sweetspot the edge with it. it becomes VERY hard to sweetspot said ledge if the stage is tilting misjudge too low, and you die, misjudge to high and you get punished.. Other charcters I can think of immediately that suffer similarly are ness and lucas.

Also, the tilting stage presents its own problems. it cancels out low to the ground projectiles for one thing, and characters like ZSS who have some big disjointed hitboxes can really get screwed when their attack goes right through the floor.

if you play lylat cruise enough, with enough characters, you begin to se that it clearly gives some charcters more of an advatage than others. I see it along the same lines, really, as Luigi's mansion, Stadium 1 and Delfino Plaza. IT doesn't play neutral, but it plays fairly close to neutral in a lot of cases meaning that it should PROBABLY be a counterpick, but if the tourney director is dissatisfied with using only the 4 undeniably neutral stages, they have the potential to be bumped up

Zelda's cooldown lag is cancelled by the fact that her up B can have enormous vertical range.

It cancels ground projectiles. So? What's your point? Pokemon Stadium had walls in Melee which blocked projectiles, and Dream Land's wind gimped up Falco. They were still neutral, so that argument is useless.

What disjointed hitboxes? Learn to attack at the max range possible for an attack is what I'll say. Or just land your character towards the direction of the tilt so that the aerial get auto-cancelled or it finishes by the time you land.

It gives advantages...so? Every other neutral stage does as well.

You're going to need more of an argument than just that if you want it a counterpick.

But isn't that why its counterpick, not neutral. Aren't counterpicks suppose to give the person who picked it an advantage over the other player?

There's a difference between a slight advantage and penalization.

the true neutrals (in order from most to least neutral: Smashville, Battlefield, Yoshi's Island, Final destination) gimp fewer people on fewer occasions... and they don't have the additional problems with the stage's constant tilt. Basically, this stage gives an unfair advatage to charcters who have good recoveries AND who don't mind landing on the stage with thier recovery (snake, MK, and ROB come to mind RIGHT away) The stage is far from bannable, but, while it may APPEAR neutral on the surface, it just screws up enough people I think that it really deserves to be a counterpick...

I know it is the one free ban I'd call as a Zelda main.

First of all, Battlefield is the most universally fair stage in the game, not Smashville. And how in the world does it give advantages to those with good recovery? That doesn't make any sense at all.

 

[AlexX]

First of all, Battlefield is the most universally fair stage in the game, not Smashville.

Not really. Characters like Ike and Dedede can hit characters on the platforms without having to jump, which is a nice advantage.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

First of all, Battlefield is the most universally fair stage in the game, not Smashville. And how in the world does it give advantages to those with good recovery? That doesn't make any sense at all.

Batlefield gives advantags to platform chasers. smashville does not.. but, smashville's solitary platform doesn't give those who dispise platfroms an unfair advatage either.

And, Lylat cruise gimps recoveries... if your recovery is verisitle enough to avoid the gimping and doesn't have much, or any, cooldown lag, you get an edge over charcters who DO suffer one of the above problems... also, you don't appear to have listened to my previous points.

A) Zelda can GENERALLY sweetspot a ledge, making FW's cooldown lag a non-issue... lylat cruise makes this nearly impossible in many cases.

B) you KNEW a wall would block your projectile. you can't anticipate thatt the ship will tilt and eat your projectile, possibly saving your advisary.

C) Play ZSS on lylat cruise... seriously, do it. Her ONLY grounbound kill move is her Forward B... if the stage tilts down when ZSS is trying to finish her enemy off with side+B, it can go right over their heads. If it tilts up, it can go right through the floor and hit nothing.

Honestly... I'm shocked at this repsonse you gave me since it doesn't really address what I even said in the first place. And, had you listened to what I'd said (which I have now been forced to repeat to you) then you would be able to see that the advantages and disadvantages it gives are severe enough to merit making it a CP. your tilte says "smash debator" but all you are doing is being a prick and displaying none of the qualities that a debator should... a politician maybe, answering points with unrelated points, but not a debator.