Official Stage Legality Discussion

[deepseadiva]

Jungle Japes: Huge vertical KO distance. Decently large horizontal distance. Inner ledges are attacked by Klaptraps every seven seconds (Different times for different ledges), which kill on hit. Banworthy much?

No. Klaptraps, being the only real threat, do not make a stage instantly ban worthy.

Pictochat: Large horizontal distance. Hazards are weak, and have a small chance of appearing; only one can KO. Other transforms can promote stalling, but only for a limited time. I don't see any issues with this stage. At all.

Norfair: Several ledges and large horizontal distance promote stalling. Lava hazards force people into combat and can promote combos, shortening the match. However, most hazards are pitifully easy to avoid getting hit by or getting hit into. I've debated this one as CP/Optional Ban for a while now.

Frigate Orpheon: Large vertical distance. Initial side of stage lacks edge on the right side. Stage flips can kill if you're unlucky. Platforms on other side of the stage (The ones the go in and out) can cause KOs if you land after a hit or trip on them. Definite CP. Nothing wrong with this stage that causes gamebreakers for certain characters.

Exactly. I was never arguing against these stages in the least, I was merely pointing out how disrupting they are in relation to Jungle Japes. So, seeing as you've already layed-out them out against each other, how is Jungle Japes so low when all these stages above have equally, or even more, disrupting hazards and effects?

Please find out what the criteria for this stuff actually is and then come back and ask questions. Thank you.

Please understand the question first.
Though I'm sorry if it wasn't presented well.

 

[tEhrXXz0r]

What's everyone's general consensus on Yoshi's Island (Melee) for Singles? Banned or counterpick? Any reasons as to why it is banned/counterpick?

I apologize if this has already been addressed, but I would rather not search this thread with over 2,000 posts already intact.

 

[AlexX]

You're a moron.

Personal attacks have no place in debate.

Say you're shielding next to a ledge. I use a smash attack, which pushes you off the ledge. You do not immediately sweetspot when this happens. And if a klaptrap is there, which they have a fairly good chance of being, you die. For blocking an attack. Yeah, makes plenty of sense.

How often is this situation going to happen compared to how often ledgestalling would if they were not there? Something so situational should not be grounds for banning.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Hmm... well since you won't budge on lylat cruise (not like you're the end all and beat all anyway) we get one free ban in tourneys right? well I'll just use it on that.

As for walkoff's getting auto banned... I don't agree with that... some walkoff stages are otherwise good stages and, if the tournament has harsh rulles on chain grabs, then it doesn't really pose as much of a threat does it?

 

[x After Dawn x]

*Sigh*

I'm feeling like we're starting to take steps backward instead of forward. Let me just clear some things up:

Delfino Plaza: Already established a long, long time ago that this was counterpick. The takeoff, landing, walk-off blastzones, and walls make it a counterpick.

Rainbow Cruise: Not neutral. Already established a while ago.

Frigate Orpheon: If you forget to jump, then...we'll, that's too bad. As far as I know, you still have a chance at recovering even if it does flip, but all you have to do is jump when the stage flips. Brawl is floaty, so this isn't hard to time. Also agreed upon a while ago.

Jungle Japes: There's nothing yet that says that this stage is a definite ban or definite counterpick. It's very debatable. And that's what we're here for.

Yoshi's Island Melee: For some reason, I have a feeling that the SBR is going to make this a counterpick...I personally think it should be ban because the solid blocks create mini caves of life, and the center ground blocks mess up some characters (Fox's shine, anybody?). And there's also the infamous walk-off ledge on the right. But it's still very debatable, so there's nothing definite yet.

Sonic: There's no rule that says that walk-offs = automatic ban. If there was, you would see stages like Rainbow Cruise, Distant Planet, Castle Siege, and Yoshi's Island Melee as bans. This list is created under the assumption that infinites and chaingrabbing are allowed. If they're not, then it's up to the tournament director to assemble his / her own separate list. This gives me an idea, though...

 

[Xona]

I really think that the tournament scene should try to minimize the number of Banned Stages because most of the stages they ban could be fixed by making the rules list correctly. Also, different stages have different aspects that they test. BUT, some of those stages like WARIO WARE INC are definitely worth banning. Wario Ware Inc.'s ban reason would be the randomized rewards. And tournaments should have a patch/code on to remove the randomized tripping before banning stages. And for the huge stages; seriously, WHY PLAY TIMED STOCK IN THE FIRST PLACE? Banning Temple due to laser spamming? Look at Final Destination!!! Projectile spamming and chain-grabs are the MOST cheap there.

My reccomended ruleset is:
4-stock
NO time limit
No items
Chain-Grabs ILLEGAL
ALL not banned stages are neutral where character is selected AFTER stages.

And the ONLY banned stages would be:
FD (WAY too flat and simple, projectile spamming, grab spamming, and button mashing), Wario Ware Inc. (the randomized rewards from the Microgames.), Bridge of Eldin (see FD)
Custom stages are a potential controversy, so I think that a small commitee should approve the stages when they come up in the tournament.

I may not like Green Hill Zone, Shadow Moses Island, Battle Field, or Lylat Cruise (although the Corneria Music from Star Fox is awesome) but I will try to accept those.


However, as I know that the rest of the hardcore smash community probably won't agree with this ruleset, I will start a 2nd tournament scene where you may only play the Banned Stages. I am also planning on starting a 2nd tournament scene for Melee where only the Banned Stages are used (Including Debug Stages).

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

For the sake of politeness, I will say I disagree.

 

[fkacyan]

It's really not that situation, AlexX. I watched Velocity lose two stocks to that particular mechanic in one match at a tourney that did allow the stage. The stock that wasn't those two stocks took about 190% (On G&W) to take off.

The level takes huge amounts of time to KO on, unless the Klaptrap is killing you. Maybe you should read the segment where I mention how friggen' big the stage is.

Meno, none of the other stages have autokills. JJ would be a good CP except for that particular mechanic, working in tandem with the size of the stage.

 

[Xona]

I think that there should be several tournament scenes with different rulesets on stages and that each one should be deemed "Hardcore", not just the Final Destination only one.

I am a Hardcore player, yet I LOATHE FD, AND I play Big Blue.
If you don't believe me about being Hardcore, then watch my video on youtube titled "SSBB Glide Wavedash: How To"

FD is only good for basic combo training in my opinion. However, my opinion is not the only one that matters, but there are people who agree with me. So I think there should be multiple EQUALLY tiered tournament scenes with different rulesets.

 

[fkacyan]

I think that there should be several tournament scenes with different rulesets on stages and that each one should be deemed "Hardcore", not just the Final Destination only one.

I am a Hardcore player, yet I LOATHE FD, AND I play Big Blue.
If you don't believe me about being Hardcore, then watch my video on youtube titled "SSBB Glide Wavedash: How To"

FD is only good for basic combo training in my opinion. However, my opinion is not the only one that matters, but there are people who agree with me. So I think there should be multiple EQUALLY tiered tournament scenes with different rulesets.

I'm going to put this as nicely as possible.

NO.

If you have suggestions as to how tourneys are run, go to the Tourney Discussion forums. This thread is for stage legality.

 

[CaliburChamp]

Norfair should be banned. The lava is very hazardous. And the Lava wave has an area of effect on the whole stage, and it screws up the flow of battle or can KO. If the stage didnt have any lava effect like that, then it would probably be a counterpick stage.
Luigi's Mansion is fine. No hazards on this stage, and its easy to break apart the house, its a stage with strategy, its what I love about that stage. One of my favorite Brawl stages. It's definitly not a banned stage, mostly counterpick.

And even though Bridge of Eldin is a large stage, it shouldnt be banned, because there are no tech zones. That alone should save it from being banned.
Shadow Moses Island shouldnt be banned. Why? Because you can break the walls if you need to KO someone from the sides.

 

[deepseadiva]

Jungle Japes: There's nothing yet that says that this stage is a definite ban or definite counterpick. It's very debatable. And that's what we're here for.

Exactly what I'm trying to do with my stance on the stage:
Jungle Japes as a definite counterpick.

It's really not that situation, AlexX. I watched Velocity lose two stocks to that particular mechanic in one match at a tourney that did allow the stage. The stock that wasn't those two stocks took about 190% (On G&W) to take off.

This is Velocity's fault. The klaptraps are a hazard, a dangerous one at that, but they are completly and utterly avoidable. You learn to go around the Pictochat drawings, you learn to jump to avoid the flip on the Frigate, you learn to avoid the lava on Norfair - and thus you learn to avoid the ledges where the klaptraps spike you. Simple if not easier than the other stages.

The level takes huge amounts of time to KO on, unless the Klaptrap is killing you. Maybe you should read the segment where I mention how friggen' big the stage is.

Meno, none of the other stages have autokills. JJ would be a good CP except for that particular mechanic, working in tandem with the size of the stage.

The stage is only vertically tall, otherwise it is of average size horizontally. I don't see this as an issue at all.

 

[Rhubarbo]

I really think that the tournament scene should try to minimize the number of Banned Stages because most of the stages they ban could be fixed by making the rules list correctly. Also, different stages have different aspects that they test. BUT, some of those stages like WARIO WARE INC are definitely worth banning. Wario Ware Inc.'s ban reason would be the randomized rewards. And tournaments should have a patch/code on to remove the randomized tripping before banning stages. And for the huge stages; seriously, WHY PLAY TIMED STOCK IN THE FIRST PLACE? Banning Temple due to laser spamming? Look at Final Destination!!! Projectile spamming and chain-grabs are the MOST cheap there.

My reccomended ruleset is:
4-stock
NO time limit
No items
Chain-Grabs ILLEGAL
ALL not banned stages are neutral where character is selected AFTER stages.

And the ONLY banned stages would be:
FD (WAY too flat and simple, projectile spamming, grab spamming, and button mashing), Wario Ware Inc. (the randomized rewards from the Microgames.), Bridge of Eldin (see FD)
Custom stages are a potential controversy, so I think that a small commitee should approve the stages when they come up in the tournament.

I may not like Green Hill Zone, Shadow Moses Island, Battle Field, or Lylat Cruise (although the Corneria Music from Star Fox is awesome) but I will try to accept those.


However, as I know that the rest of the hardcore smash community probably won't agree with this ruleset, I will start a 2nd tournament scene where you may only play the Banned Stages. I am also planning on starting a 2nd tournament scene for Melee where only the Banned Stages are used (Including Debug Stages).

Chain-grabs illegal? Maybe infinites, but chain-grabs? FD banned? You have trouble accepting Lylat Cruise? Dude, get educated.

Xona- "I think that there should be several tournament scenes with different rulesets on stages and that each one should be deemed "Hardcore", not just the Final Destination only one.

I am a Hardcore player, yet I LOATHE FD, AND I play Big Blue.
If you don't believe me about being Hardcore, then watch my video on youtube titled "SSBB Glide Wavedash: How To"

FD is only good for basic combo training in my opinion. However, my opinion is not the only one that matters, but there are people who agree with me. So I think there should be multiple EQUALLY tiered tournament scenes with different rulesets."

There is no such thing as an FD only tourney, that is a common misconception. You clearly don't know the tourney rule set at all.

 

[Rhubarbo]

*Sigh*

I'm feeling like we're starting to take steps backward instead of forward. Let me just clear some things up:

Delfino Plaza: Already established a long, long time ago that this was counterpick. The takeoff, landing, walk-off blastzones, and walls make it a counterpick.

Rainbow Cruise: Not neutral. Already established a while ago.

Frigate Orpheon: If you forget to jump, then...we'll, that's too bad. As far as I know, you still have a chance at recovering even if it does flip, but all you have to do is jump when the stage flips. Brawl is floaty, so this isn't hard to time. Also agreed upon a while ago.

Jungle Japes: There's nothing yet that says that this stage is a definite ban or definite counterpick. It's very debatable. And that's what we're here for.

Yoshi's Island Melee: For some reason, I have a feeling that the SBR is going to make this a counterpick...I personally think it should be ban because the solid blocks create mini caves of life, and the center ground blocks mess up some characters (Fox's shine, anybody?). And there's also the infamous walk-off ledge on the right. But it's still very debatable, so there's nothing definite yet.

Sonic: There's no rule that says that walk-offs = automatic ban. If there was, you would see stages like Rainbow Cruise, Distant Planet, Castle Siege, and Yoshi's Island Melee as bans. This list is created under the assumption that infinites and chaingrabbing are allowed. If they're not, then it's up to the tournament director to assemble his / her own separate list. This gives me an idea, though...

Walk-offs should be auto-bans. At least stages where walk-offs are always available, or are too prominent. Right now, the only "pure" walk-off stage I can see as likely being legal is Distant Planet because you can prevent BTCing with the pellets. I can still see Dedede players counterpicking there and totally ******.

As for Yoshi's Island Melee, I think it's definitely a ban due to the lack of preventing BTCing, the chain-grab kill, and of course those pesky blocks that hamper game play so much.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

This is Velocity's fault. The klaptraps are a hazard, a dangerous one at that, but they are completly and utterly avoidable. You learn to go around the Pictochat drawings, you learn to jump to avoid the flip on the Frigate, you learn to avoid the lava on Norfair - and thus you learn to avoid the ledges where the klaptraps spike you. Simple if not easier than the other stages.

this isint likely,as the klaptraps appear near a platform RNADOMLY.in short,its all about luck,if your recovering you can olny hope it dosent appear nder you

 

[x After Dawn x]

Walk-offs should be auto-bans. At least stages where walk-offs are always available, or are too prominent. Right now, the only "pure" walk-off stage I can see as likely being legal is Distant Planet because you can prevent BTCing with the pellets. I can still see Dedede players counterpicking there and totally ******.

As for Yoshi's Island Melee, I think it's definitely a ban due to the lack of preventing BTCing, the chain-grab kill, and of course those pesky blocks that hamper game play so much.

Walk-offs are not auto-bans. There's no reason why they would be, they just help contribute greatly to a ban, but they aren't auto-bans. Why would we ban stages like Castle Siege, Distant Planet, and Delfino Plaza just because they have them? You have to take things into consideration, such as the time the walk-offs are there for, the size of the stage, the amount of platforms and varying environment there is, etc.

 

[Xona]

I'm going to put this as nicely as possible.

NO.

If you have suggestions as to how tourneys are run, go to the Tourney Discussion forums. This thread is for stage legality.

I mostly meant this for stages, like having one with NO stage banning, the one that this thread determines, and one where ONLY banned stages may be played. The other ruleset changes would be based by the played stages in that tournament. So this IS about stage legality. And I said equally tiered for a reason, it's like having both singles tournaments and 2-on-2 tournaments. Neither is superior, they just test different aspects. Why not have tournaments for the stages like Temple and Big Blue?

 

[Xona]

Norfair should be banned. The lava is very hazardous. And the Lava wave has an area of effect on the whole stage, and it screws up the flow of battle or can KO. If the stage didnt have any lava effect like that, then it would probably be a counterpick stage.
Luigi's Mansion is fine. No hazards on this stage, and its easy to break apart the house, its a stage with strategy, its what I love about that stage. One of my favorite Brawl stages. It's definitly not a banned stage, mostly counterpick.

And even though Bridge of Eldin is a large stage, it shouldnt be banned, because there are no tech zones. That alone should save it from being banned.
Shadow Moses Island shouldnt be banned. Why? Because you can break the walls if you need to KO someone from the sides.

You can just shield at the last 2 seconds, then the lava won't damage you at all on the huge flow.

 

[x After Dawn x]

I mostly meant this for stages, like having one with NO stage banning, the one that this thread determines, and one where ONLY banned stages may be played. The other ruleset changes would be based by the played stages in that tournament. So this IS about stage legality. And I said equally tiered for a reason, it's like having both singles tournaments and 2-on-2 tournaments. Neither is superior, they just test different aspects. Why not have tournaments for the stages like Temple and Big Blue?

Temple? ...You are joking, right? Maybe you should cruise around SWF for a bit before you debate here, because you only have 4 posts, and they were all in this topic.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Haha...wow, that was pretty funny. I would LOVE to see you even try to FINISH a match on Temple without a time limit. You'll be there...well, until you've decided you've had enough and you quit. Good luck, and let me know how your dumb idea works out, which it won't.

That is exactly why we don't have tournaments with stages like that. If you don't see...I'm not gonna explain, but you'll understand eventually.

And as a side note, the Klaptrap appears every 7-8 seconds. And if you have good timing(which you should) then you should be able to grab the ledges and stay invincible while it goes past you. It's not that big an issue, once you've played there a lot. It does seem like it, but it's really not too bad. That might just depend on who you're playing though. I might have just been pretty lucky and just avoided it all the time, while someone else may not have been so lucky. The thing I hate the most is the water. It kills you a lot if you fall in from the left side of the stage. Even if you manage to jump out you can't make it far enough upstream to escape it carrying you to your death before you can jump again.

 

[MysticKenji]

Norfair should be banned. The lava is very hazardous. And the Lava wave has an area of effect on the whole stage, and it screws up the flow of battle or can KO. If the stage didnt have any lava effect like that, then it would probably be a counterpick stage.

Are you referring to this match?

Shadow Moses Island shouldnt be banned. Why? Because you can break the walls if you need to KO someone from the sides.

That's only one reason why it's banned.

@Erich
Don't you mean the left side?

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Yea...oops. I do mean the left side. I'll go edit that real quick, hehe.

 

[fkacyan]

Water on right side + Trying to jump out = Klaptrap.

Plus, as I've said, you don't immediately sweetspot if you're shieldpushed off the edge.

 

[x After Dawn x]

I do find the water to be extremely annoying...it wouldn't be so bad if the stream was a bit lower, but it's so close to the platforms that you get pushed off even when you don't want to be. A simple meteor smash on the left side will kill your opponent (even a weak one like Fox's), and because the water is so close, your opponent won't be able to meteor cancel. This could be seen as an example of manipulation of physics, which, combined with the Klap Traps, could eventually lead to a ban. What do you guys think?

 

[NinjaFoxX]

I do find the water to be extremely annoying...it wouldn't be so bad if the stream was a bit lower, but it's so close to the platforms that you get pushed off even when you don't want to be. A simple meteor smash on the left side will kill your opponent (even a weak one like Fox's), and because the water is so close, your opponent won't be able to meteor cancel. This could be seen as an example of manipulation of physics, which, combined with the Klap Traps, could eventually lead to a ban. What do you guys think?

if the water is really that close,that could serve as a problem,but i would like to see a match where such a condition is met,otherwise,probobly not.

 

[Xona]

Haha...wow, that was pretty funny. I would LOVE to see you even try to FINISH a match on Temple without a time limit. You'll be there...well, until you've decided you've had enough and you quit. Good luck, and let me know how your dumb idea works out, which it won't.

That is exactly why we don't have tournaments with stages like that. If you don't see...I'm not gonna explain, but you'll understand eventually.

And as a side note, the Klaptrap appears every 7-8 seconds. And if you have good timing(which you should) then you should be able to grab the ledges and stay invincible while it goes past you. It's not that big an issue, once you've played there a lot. It does seem like it, but it's really not too bad. That might just depend on who you're playing though. I might have just been pretty lucky and just avoided it all the time, while someone else may not have been so lucky. The thing I hate the most is the water. It kills you a lot if you fall in from the left side of the stage. Even if you manage to jump out you can't make it far enough upstream to escape it carrying you to your death before you can jump again.

You definitely have a point about the near-impossibility of finishing there. But if stage is determined first, and known to both players, I would choose Sonic so that I can catch any one by cutting them off on Temple. But I'm not a Sonic user... Yet. That comment demonstrated to me why master using Sonic, he can cut anyone off. Yes, he could even cut Pit and Meta Knight off on Temple. Besides, I LOVE a good challenge anyway, so I will definitely try this.

 

[Meme]

Well if it wasn't mainly for the water, Jungle Japes would be a really good CP stage, but since you can Gimp several characters to their death by just spiking or shield pushing them.

Falling in between the left and the main platform, can mean death to characters with horrible horizontal Recovery. Also taking into count that while in water there are still KlapTraps (Mutated Totodiles) d >_>b...
Adding the vulnerability of coming out of the water...

One afternoon I played with couple of friends on this stage several times, most of the deaths were drownings off stage, even falling from the Right side, with proper edgeguardings.

Most of the games became restricted to the right side, with the occasional death by Klaptrap, while cornering people to the left comes handy for a strategy.

All of my friends considered it an unfair stage, and from my point of view, I would consider it for the section of Ban / Optional Counterpick.

Still sort of considering it Counterpick since is likely that Advanced Players can overcome these issues, which would be a hard task.

But anyways I would vote for ban. d<_,< b

 

[Xona]

Chain-grabs illegal? Maybe infinites, but chain-grabs? FD banned? You have trouble accepting Lylat Cruise? Dude, get educated.

Xona- "I think that there should be several tournament scenes with different rulesets on stages and that each one should be deemed "Hardcore", not just the Final Destination only one.

I am a Hardcore player, yet I LOATHE FD, AND I play Big Blue.
If you don't believe me about being Hardcore, then watch my video on youtube titled "SSBB Glide Wavedash: How To"

FD is only good for basic combo training in my opinion. However, my opinion is not the only one that matters, but there are people who agree with me. So I think there should be multiple EQUALLY tiered tournament scenes with different rulesets."

There is no such thing as an FD only tourney, that is a common misconception. You clearly don't know the tourney rule set at all.

I was thinking that the only infinite and the only chain-grab in brawl were the same. Also, I was referring to Melee when I said FD only, how they banned almost all the complex stages. Yes that was a misconception, but I forgot that. I HAVE researched the tourney rules, and in Melee they only allow 4 or 5 stages that aren't flat. I had to research the tourney ruleset in order to make my banned stages ruleset in Melee. The reason I don't like Lylat cruise is because I feel it is too flat, but I don't think it's anywhere near as bad as FD and therefore would allow it. The 3 platforms and the tilting are the main things that keep it legal in my list, also the music for it is AWESOME. I almost would play it just for the Corneria music. And with ways to go up through the bottom floor, I think this stage is somewhat tolerable. That's WHY I would allow it on a tournament that I decided to make the stages list for. I don't like stage banning much either. Now I KNOW that custom stages will be controversal, and that in the end many people will disagree with the decision either way. FD stinks because projectile spamming is virtually invincible here. And hey, I only had 3 banned stages in my ruleset, all the others seem to have 14+ banned stages. Also, many seem to have more than 20.

 

[Xona]

Temple? ...You are joking, right? Maybe you should cruise around SWF for a bit before you debate here, because you only have 4 posts, and they were all in this topic.

This is the only part of Tourney rules that I care about, and I can't stand the idea of 50%+ of the stages being banned like they were in Melee. And even if you don't count the debug stages, it still came pretty close. Also, I see no reason to ban Big Blue, especially if you play Fixed Camera mode.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

This is the only part of Tourney rules that I care about, and I can't stand the idea of 50%+ of the stages being banned like they were in Melee. And even if you don't count the debug stages, it still came pretty close. Also, I see no reason to ban Big Blue, especially if you play Fixed Camera mode.

im currently like that too(the thing about focousing on stage legality,not the other stuff)as said before,do a little more posting and discussion elsewhere too,they you can understand WHY these stages are beinge banned or otherwise,what were looking for in this topic speciffically is to make matches and tourneys more FAIR and equal,thats why such stages you mention are banned.just lurk moar,and youll understand

 

[x After Dawn x]

I only had 3 banned stages in my ruleset, all the others seem to have 14+ banned stages.

Lurk more, then come back when you realize how stupid that is.

 

[Mic_128]

This is the only part of Tourney rules that I care about, and I can't stand the idea of 50%+ of the stages being banned like they were in Melee. And even if you don't count the debug stages, it still came pretty close. Also, I see no reason to ban Big Blue, especially if you play Fixed Camera mode.

Why would you count the debug stages?

Big blue was banned, not because of camera angles, but because unless you tech on the spot, hitting the road was instant death.

 

[Xona]

Why would you count the debug stages?

Big blue was banned, not because of camera angles, but because unless you tech on the spot, hitting the road was instant death.

The reason that I count them is that I've played them and almost all of them are awesome. As for Big Blue, when I looked it up, it said camera angles. And the instant death thing is not really as deadly because you have to meteor them onto the track anyway. Besides, not teching can anhilate you anywhere. And with an airdodge in Brawl you can completely avoid having to tech. And when fighting on Big Blue, you can ride the track to play mindgames. Fixed camera definitely helps here, but I must admit that teching is also a lifesaver. Meteor Smashes can kill you anywhere, but they are slightly weaker because you can tech out of them when you hit either an F-Zero machine or the track. Anyway, thanks for explaining why many people don't like it.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

Why would you count the debug stages?

Big blue was banned, not because of camera angles, but because unless you tech on the spot, hitting the road was instant death.

didn't think of that!

 

[x After Dawn x]

The reason that I count them is that I've played them and almost all of them are awesome. As for Big Blue, when I looked it up, it said camera angles. And the instant death thing is not really as deadly because you have to spike them onto the track anyway. Besides, not teching can anhilate you anywhere. And with an airdodge in Brawl you can completely avoid having to tech. And when fighting on Big Blue, you can ride the track to play mindgames. Fixed camera definitely helps here, but I must admit that teching is also a lifesaver. Spikes can kill you anywhere, and they are slightly weaker because you can tech. Anyway, thanks for explaining why many people don't like it.

"Spikes are slightly weaker because you can tech"

...? First of all, there are no spikes in Brawl. Secondly, that post didn't really make that much sense. How are they "weaker" because you can tech? Weaker compared to what? You could tech them in every game.

 

[Xona]

"Spikes are slightly weaker because you can tech"

Yeah, I should have been more clear with that comment

...? First of all, there are no spikes in Brawl. Secondly, that post didn't really make that much sense. How are they "weaker" because you can tech? Weaker compared to what? You could tech them in every game.

I was talking about the stage Big Blue, spiking onto the track, compared to no ground at all. Examples of Spikes include: Marth's Dair/ADA, Wolf's Smash B, Falco's Smash B, and Falco's Dair/ADA
Maybe these are classified as Meteor Smashes. Either way you can tech it and be saved.
However Footstool Jumping might not be possible to tech.

 

[x After Dawn x]

I was talking about the stage Big Blue, spiking onto the track, compared to no ground at all. Examples of Spikes include: Marth's Dair/ADA, Wolf's Smash B, Falco's Smash B, and Falco's Dair/ADA
Maybe these are classified as Meteor Smashes. Either way you can tech it and be saved.
However Footstool Jumping might not be possible to tech.

But you don't get it...you might not want to tech. 1/4 of the time, a pro in Melee didn't tech, for many reasons (avoiding Falco's laser, for example). That means if you choose not to tech, you die.

 

[Xona]

I still don't agree with Big Blue's banning, but whether or not it should be banned is an oppinion. I think it should at least be a counter-pick, but that's also an oppinion. That's still why I think that there should be seperate tournaments with different stage lists that are equally tiered. Other ruleset differences would be based on the stage list. Equally tiered means that they all get recognition and respect, instead of people labeling them as "For Noobs".

I do; however, agree with Wario Ware Inc.'s banning. But there are probably people who disagree with that as well, they probably have their reasoning too.

P.S. People CAN counter camping on Temple, that's why use Sonic on this stage, he can cut anyone off on it. Also with counter-picks, stage is selected first and known to both players, right? While I would normally use Pit, Meta Knight, Zelda, Zero Suit Samus or Marth, here I would use Sonic. Using Ganondorf would obviously not work, but using Sonic would.

 

[x After Dawn x]

Can you please put that to rest? You don't know what you're talking about if you want Temple unbanned, which you did. You also only have 3 stages banned in your personal tier list, which also shows you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[fkacyan]

P.S. People CAN counter camping on Temple, that's why use Sonic on this stage, he can cut anyone off on it. Also with counter-picks, stage is selected first and known to both players, right? While I would normally use Pit, Meta Knight, Zelda, Zero Suit Samus or Marth, here I would use Sonic. Using Ganondorf would obviously not work, but using Sonic would.

Alternately, I could pick Pit, shoot you with one arrow, and proceed to fly around the stage the entire time.

You may enjoy Evo this year, with the way you're thinking.