[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[Big-Cat]

i wish i had GX, i talk about FZERO X... i can't find GX in any store and i refuse to buy anything from the internet... i haz no credit cards.

Debit cards FTW. I've been using them for online shopping for years.

 

[Steam]

Pico was wild and wreckless and seemed more into taking out other racers then winning. He would fit right at home in smash.

the problem is they'd have to just invent an entire moveset for him.... and while this wouldn't be that hard it make him more likely to be a clone. and just make him less likely to work in general.

I mean they had to do it with Falcon (and thankfully it worked) but like... what would pico do?

 

[Gallowglass]

the problem is they'd have to just invent an entire moveset for him.... and while this wouldn't be that hard it make him more likely to be a clone. and just make him less likely to work in general.

I mean they had to do it with Falcon (and thankfully it worked) but like... what would pico do?

With Falcon they didn't base him off of anything. I doubt he would be a clone because he doesn't move or hold himself like CF. He is often hunched over and almost primate like.

 

[augustoflores]

i doubt that he can go into his shell. his legs from the patella downward remind me of megaman.

 

[Spydr Enzo]

If we get any new F-Zero characters (and I believe we should) then I would most definitely expect Samurai Goroh first, considering all the exposure he has had in Smash and in the F-Zero series in general. After that, I'd say Black Shadow, considering he's like the main villain of F-Zero GX(besides Deathborn and the Creators of the World), giving him lots of screen time. THEN, maybe Pico would have a chance and other well-known characters like Jody Summer.

 

[Gallowglass]

I don't know about Black Shadow. I could see him as a clone of Ganondorf and he was a boss in one game which it was unknown whether he survived or not. I would stick with the original character Goroh, Jody, Pico, Stewart in that order.

 

[Spydr Enzo]

I don't know about Black Shadow. I could see him as a clone of Ganondorf and he was a boss in one game which it was unknown whether he survived or not. I would stick with the original character Goroh, Jody, Pico, Stewart in that order.

A lot of people actually like Black Shadow for the reason that he'd be a clone of Ganondorf (heh... a clone of a clone). These people want Black Shadow to take Ganondorf's moveset since they have similar body structures and this would give Ganondorf a new moveset. Some people actually use this to back up their opinion that Black Shadow is much more likely than Samurai Goroh... it's ridiculous.

I actually got into quite a heated discussion about this in the ol' SSB4 Discussion Group.

 

[Gallowglass]

A lot of people actually like Black Shadow for the reason that he'd be a clone of Ganondorf (heh... a clone of a clone). These people want Black Shadow to take Ganondorf's moveset since they have similar body structures and this would give Ganondorf a new moveset. Some people actually use this to back up their opinion that Black Shadow is much more likely than Samurai Goroh... it's ridiculous.

I actually got into quite a heated discussion about this in the ol' SSB4 Discussion Group.

That makes sense and I would like to have Ganondorf with his own moveset. The problem with that is Ganondorf is the most powerful character in Smash so his moves would have to represent that. That would make Black Shadow obsolete since he would be a slower and slightly more powerful CF.

I never knew why they didn't give Ganondorf his own moves other than they were pressed on time and saw CF had a moveset that could work. I mean in Ocarina of Time it wasn't like they had to think too hard for him. He had the energy ball, reflecting attack, the dark cloud, and could levitate. That's just from the one battle alone.

 

[Barbasol]

It's quite bizarre, but F-Zero racers are actually quite diverse, and a lot of them would make great Smashers. I wish Mighty Gazelle was more major. He really should be in the main for instead of Dr. Stewart.

My guess at pecking order
Captain Falcon
Samurai Goroh
Black Shadow
Pico/Jody
Deathborn

 

[Arcadenik]

@ august

When you compare Mario/Pokemon with F-Zero/Star Fox, it is clear which ones are more (arguably) deserving of having more characters. With Mario/Pokemon, you have tons and tons of characters with unique abilities and they actually displayed over and over again. With F-Zero/Star Fox, you have dozens of characters who hardly ever get out of their vehicled and hardly showed their combat abilities outside of their vehicles.

With Mario/Pokemon, you have characters who have unique movesets (sans Luigi and Pichu) that they actually used in the original games. With F-Zero, you have a character whose moveset was completely made up. If the main character got a moveset that was based on nothing, chances are the rest of the cast will have movesets based on nothing but their personalities/backgrounds, too (if anyone ever cares about following the F-Zero stories). With Star Fox, you also have a character who moveset was loosely based on Arwings (I noticed Fox's moves were based on what Arwings can do) and the rest of the cast are clones of said character. Nothing unique about them.

People in general usually prefer characters with original movesets. They usually prefer characters with movesets that aren't completely made up and are actually based on the original games. The only reason why people want Samurai Goroh is because he claims to be Captain Falcon's rival (OMG! A rival! We need more rivals in Smash!) and he uses a sword (OMG! A sword! Moveset potential!) but they don't stop to think that he would require a made-up moveset to be viable. The only reason why people want Jody Summer is because she is a woman (OMG! A female character who is not that important to the series but still, a female nonetheless! We need more females in Smash!) and they don't even stop to think about giving her a necessary made-up moveset to be viable. The only real reason why people want Black Shadow is because they want to declone Ganondorf and at the same time, keep Ganondorf's cloned moveset but they mask it with the "we need more villains in Smash!" excuse.

As for Krystal, well... if Sakurai apparently didn't know about Adventures, why would he give her a weapon from a game he hasn't heard of? Really, Krystal has not used the staff since Adventures. In the games after Adventures, Krystal has been doing the same things Fox and Falco has been doing since the beginning of the series. She went from an unique original character to a generic "one of the guys" in the Star Fox team. She presented herself as a potential clone (or semi-clone). Also, one of the commonly-used arguments supporting Krystal is "We need more females!" Well, if having a set of hairy boobs and an overgrown bush is all Krystal has going, she doesn't deserve to be in Smash.

Okay, enough about characters... let's talk about the series themselves. Mario/Pokemon are very popular. Far, far more popular than F-Zero/Star Fox will ever dream of being. Mario/Pokemon print money for Nintendo. Sure, F-Zero/Star Fox can make money for Nintendo but Mario/Pokemon make more than they do. Of course, Mario/Pokemon are going to get more playable characters than F-Zero/Star Fox. Fans get more excited when they see Mario/Pokemon characters than they do with F-Zero/Star Fox characters in Smash.

@ steam

When I said alternate characters, I mean clones and semi-clones. They can be bigger/smaller, faster/slower, stronger/weaker, etc. Bowser Jr. would totally work just fine as an alternate character (read: semi-clone at best, clone at worst) when you select Bowser and press the Z button or some other button that may be on Project Cafe's controller.

 

[ryuu seika]

This F-Zero discussion reminds me, if smash ever does go the way of matchup specific taunts, Captain Falcon should get something that references the James McCloud in GX when fighting Fox. Something simple like "James could never out race me."
Infact, he might even put on those sunglasses...

 

[BlueSuperSonic1]

This F-Zero discussion reminds me, if smash ever does go the way of matchup specific taunts, Captain Falcon should get something that references the James McCloud in GX when fighting Fox. Something simple like "James could never out race me."
Infact, he might even put on those sunglasses...

There are already match-up specific victory phrases. For example, Falco says something special after defeating Fox (although I forgot what it was).

 

[Gallowglass]

It's quite bizarre, but F-Zero racers are actually quite diverse, and a lot of them would make great Smashers. I wish Mighty Gazelle was more major. He really should be in the main for instead of Dr. Stewart.

My guess at pecking order
Captain Falcon
Samurai Goroh
Black Shadow
Pico/Jody
Deathborn

Your right. Octoman is one that would very interesting in my opinion. I think Deathborn would be an interesting boss character being a large immortal cyborg.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Yes pretty much. All Layton and AC debates are running under the assumption that we get a new director or Sakurai changes is mind. We already know his views on "innocent" series.

Layton isn't very innocent. People actually fight and die in that series, plus at least one brutal beating and one pregnancy out of marriage. It's a lot closer to EarthBound than anything else.



holy crap, F-Zero talk, you guys rule all of a sudden (except Arc as per usual)

 

[Big-Cat]

I never thought of comparing Layton to Earthbound. Coincidentally, Lucas and Luke (lol) are voiced by the same person in the American releases (but not the British releases).

 

[Arcadenik]

holy crap, F-Zero talk, you guys rule all of a sudden (except Arc as per usual)

Of course, I never will. I wouldn't dream of winning your "special Toise praises."

 

[Steam]

if there's any series that's "innocent" it's the kirby series lol.

 

[BlueSuperSonic1]

if there's any series that's "innocent" it's the kirby series lol.

I'm pretty sure a bloody eyeball in two of the Kirby games kinda invalidates that lol

 

[Gallowglass]

if there's any series that's "innocent" it's the kirby series lol.

I don't know if you really think about it. It's about a character eating his enemies to gain their powers. That's like some Maori warrior guy.

 

[Hoots]

I think Goroh would make a much more interesting character than Black Shadow, but then again ANOTHER sword charater? Link, Toon Link, Marth, Ike, Isaac, Maybe decloned Ganon, Maybe a 3rd FE character, as well as Goroh? I mean, can they make THAT many sword characters? Although Black Shadow would fill out the villain roster which would be nice.

 

[Steam]

I'm pretty sure a bloody eyeball in two of the Kirby games kinda invalidates that lol

not really lol. still way more innocent than anything else...

 

[augustoflores]

oh Arcadenik, you underestimate me yet again. the very first thing i said was overshadowed by your thoughts on countering a way to get your precious mario/pokemon characters in and booting other franchises that aren't "deserving" (for the record, every time i use quotations, i use a mocking voice and jazz hands)

why does a series need to be a long standing franchise to receive more characters? why do they have to put more characters for the Mario franchise anyway?

there is nothing wrong with making a character based on their looks and personality. should anyone really care if it is fun to play as? you're going to sacrifice a franchise's characters just because mario/pokemon have characters that have moves they actually used? you have no imagination... it isn't that difficult to make a character have moves based on looks and personality... balancing is something every character goes through.
is it wrong to shun toad and/or bowser jr. for the sake of the life of another series?
would you rather have diversity, or Mario characters vs nintendo's other characters?

alright no one touched this so they probably forgot it or got caught in the FZERO talk.

if capcom gets in their megaman, then i want them to get vaati in there too. if square enix gets in their black mage, i want them to get Geno in there too. i mean what's the harm of taking him right out after black mage isn't in the next one?

thoughts on this quote?

 

[Gallowglass]

I personally don't like third party character but if they are going to put them in then characters from Nintendo exclusive games. Geno, Travis Touchdown, Chrono are good examples.

 

[ryuu seika]

for the record, every time i use quotations, i use a mocking voice and jazz hands

Most people do the voice but "jazz hands" (note mocking voice AND jazz hands to accompany this) seem a little over the top.

alright no one touched this so they probably forgot it or got caught in the FZERO talk.
thoughts on this quote?

Sure. Infact, that should be standard practice. If any third party character gets in, a Nintendo character that company owns should get in along side it if applicable.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

if there's any series that's "innocent" it's the kirby series lol.

"Innocent" meaning without any real conflict or danger. Sakurai uses Animal Crossing and Nintendogs as examples in discussions about character eligibility.

I personally use "pacifist" and keep it focused on the characters themselves, since it's not necessarily a series thing (compare EarthBound in general with Mr. Saturn).

I think Goroh would make a much more interesting character than Black Shadow, but then again ANOTHER sword charater? Link, Toon Link, Marth, Ike, Isaac, Maybe decloned Ganon, Maybe a 3rd FE character, as well as Goroh? I mean, can they make THAT many sword characters? Although Black Shadow would fill out the villain roster which would be nice.

To be fair, all of those characters use European swords/styles and none of them are stout or boisterous like Goroh. He actually has less in common with any of them than Black Shadow does with Ganon.

 

[augustoflores]

i can only think of geno and vaati... what other franchises were in nintendo published games(or whatever)? and i care not for mallow.

 

[ryuu seika]

He actually has less in common with any of them than Black Shadow does with Ganon.

Hence why it's been suggested that Ganondorf should have his moveset taken by Black Shadow so that he can use his sword, which, by the way, would be a proper broadsword style, rather than the regular sword styles everyone else has.

 

[Dynamo68]

Knuckle Joe and Prince Fluff although improbable, are important, and at least one of them can be covered!

Knuckle Joe is one I'd agree with. He's a good choice. I think Prince Fluff would be an alt. costume for Kirby.

 

[BlueSuperSonic1]

Knuckle Joe is a generic Kirby enemy. He can't really be a playable character in Smash.

 

[Abel1994]

I jsut want to see Costume changes like for link you choose Oot link or Twilight link and can change their colors like you can with wario

 

[Barbasol]

The problem with knuckle joe is... well....

Why Knuckle Joe? Even if Kirby really deserved a character (I'd find it hard to believe that), why would a common enemy deserve to be in? I can off-hand name several characters from Kirby that deserve to be in first.

Buggzy, Bonkers, Rick the Hamster, Paint Roller, Chef Kawasaki, Marx, Pon and Con... Heck, if we're going into common enemies, what about Waddle Dee, Waddle Doo, and Sword/Blade Knight? What about Biospark? Is this all because he got an assist trophy?

 

[BlueSuperSonic1]

Sword/Blade Knight?

That would probably end up being a Meta Knight clone of it ever happened (although that would probably never happen seeing as they're generic enemies).
Buggzy and Bonkers also probably wouldn't work considering they're common mini-bosses.

 

[Abel1994]

How about mre ice climber wanabees like

Babe mario/luigi combo :D

 

[lordvaati]

I can't help but notice with the talk over Sqare Enix characters, we have said Cloud, Geno, Chrono, Chocobo, Moogle and even a Slime from DQ. but weforgot one brain dead obvious chracter they own now:

what are her chances of getting in?

 

[augustoflores]

you forgot black mage. her chances....... i don't know, she has had appearances in nintendo platforms... but she's got guns...

 

[Hoots]

I can't help but notice with the talk over Sqare Enix characters, we have said Cloud, Geno, Chrono, Chocobo, Moogle and even a Slime from DQ. but weforgot one brain dead obvious chracter they own now:

what are her chances of getting in?

I'd certainly hope 0% chance. I think we can all agree that Geno is by far the best Square representative for SSB, and the best third third party character to add. I mean he's a freakin Mario character! Geno and Toad would be appropriate additions from the Mario franchise.

 

[•Col•]

Hence why it's been suggested that Ganondorf should have his moveset taken by Black Shadow so that he can use his sword, which, by the way, would be a proper broadsword style, rather than the regular sword styles everyone else has.

Yeah, I was thinking of something along these lines as well.... Even though I like Ike, it seems like a lot of people think he won't be returning in the next game... And if that's that case, I'd want them to give most of Ganondorf's moveset to Black Shadow, and give most of Ike's moveset to Ganondorf.

Ganondorf can keep a few of his normal attacks, like dair and ftilt, and make Ike's moves for all the rest... Then I say give him all new Special Moves, although maybe he should keep his Side B... Just make it chargeable like how Ike's side b is now or something, lol.

 

[AetherEch0s]

Like i said earlier, if Ike is gone, Ganondorf can use most of his attacks. Then, most of Ganon's old attacks could go to Black Shadow. If Sakurai wanted to save time (which he does obviously) he could do that.

 

[Sunnysunny]

Knuckles joe gets suggested over the other enemies because its common in fanfictions that knuckles joe is one of kirbys best friend/rival.

Just fanon stuff. Just dropping the info, don't actually want him in.

 

[refugee]

@ august

When you compare Mario/Pokemon with F-Zero/Star Fox, it is clear which ones are more (arguably) deserving of having more characters. With Mario/Pokemon, you have tons and tons of characters with unique abilities and they actually displayed over and over again. With F-Zero/Star Fox, you have dozens of characters who hardly ever get out of their vehicled and hardly showed their combat abilities outside of their vehicles.

With Mario/Pokemon, you have characters who have unique movesets (sans Luigi and Pichu) that they actually used in the original games. With F-Zero, you have a character whose moveset was completely made up. If the main character got a moveset that was based on nothing, chances are the rest of the cast will have movesets based on nothing but their personalities/backgrounds, too (if anyone ever cares about following the F-Zero stories). With Star Fox, you also have a character who moveset was loosely based on Arwings (I noticed Fox's moves were based on what Arwings can do) and the rest of the cast are clones of said character. Nothing unique about them.

People in general usually prefer characters with original movesets. They usually prefer characters with movesets that aren't completely made up and are actually based on the original games. The only reason why people want Samurai Goroh is because he claims to be Captain Falcon's rival (OMG! A rival! We need more rivals in Smash!) and he uses a sword (OMG! A sword! Moveset potential!) but they don't stop to think that he would require a made-up moveset to be viable. The only reason why people want Jody Summer is because she is a woman (OMG! A female character who is not that important to the series but still, a female nonetheless! We need more females in Smash!) and they don't even stop to think about giving her a necessary made-up moveset to be viable. The only real reason why people want Black Shadow is because they want to declone Ganondorf and at the same time, keep Ganondorf's cloned moveset but they mask it with the "we need more villains in Smash!" excuse.

As for Krystal, well... if Sakurai apparently didn't know about Adventures, why would he give her a weapon from a game he hasn't heard of? Really, Krystal has not used the staff since Adventures. In the games after Adventures, Krystal has been doing the same things Fox and Falco has been doing since the beginning of the series. She went from an unique original character to a generic "one of the guys" in the Star Fox team. She presented herself as a potential clone (or semi-clone). Also, one of the commonly-used arguments supporting Krystal is "We need more females!" Well, if having a set of hairy boobs and an overgrown bush is all Krystal has going, she doesn't deserve to be in Smash.

Okay, enough about characters... let's talk about the series themselves. Mario/Pokemon are very popular. Far, far more popular than F-Zero/Star Fox will ever dream of being. Mario/Pokemon print money for Nintendo. Sure, F-Zero/Star Fox can make money for Nintendo but Mario/Pokemon make more than they do. Of course, Mario/Pokemon are going to get more playable characters than F-Zero/Star Fox. Fans get more excited when they see Mario/Pokemon characters than they do with F-Zero/Star Fox characters in Smash.

@ steam

When I said alternate characters, I mean clones and semi-clones. They can be bigger/smaller, faster/slower, stronger/weaker, etc. Bowser Jr. would totally work just fine as an alternate character (read: semi-clone at best, clone at worst) when you select Bowser and press the Z button or some other button that may be on Project Cafe's controller.

You're right, Super smash bros should just become "Mario & co vs Pokemon" instead. :\