No. One we already have Mario & Luigi and two the baby versions of them are annoying as hell. Have you ever played Yoshi Island before? The ****er never stopped crying after Yoshi, not even HIMSELF, got hit. So in short; HELL NO.
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[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!
- Thread starter SamuraiPanda
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Steam
Smash Hero
that's an exagerration. but yes mario and pokemon should have the biggest representation seeing as they're the most popular franchises and this IS a fanservice game. Mario probably will get another spot or two and pokemon will probably get two more. each will likely keep all their characters from brawl.
Like I said before Lucario is most likely going to get axed just for the reason you think he'll stay, he's popular right now. However, this means that his popularity will start to plummet as Gen IV itself becomes less popular due to Gen V becoming more popular. Proof of this is how Blaziken didn't make it into Brawl even though he/she was as popular as Lucario is now. The difference is that was Gen III to Gen IV.
I can see how Mario and Pokemon will get more spots though.
Steam
Smash Hero
blaziken was nowhere near what lucario is now. he was just maybe the most popular one from gen 3 since it had no standouts whatsoever. but lucario won't just lose tons of fans like that, it happens slower than that. it's why mewtwo was in melee when gen 2 had just come out. it will deteriorate over time but won't just die off. if pokemon gets more slots (they probably should) lucario will be in. if not then he's got a little less than 50% shot. he's one of the most well known pokemon, especially in japan. Zoroark isn't even close to touching lucario's pre-pubescent fanbase, he had a bit of hype then died down a loooot.
Yes but he will lose popularity as time goes on and at the same time other pokemon will get more popular until Lucario is no longer the most popular pokemon around (a title held by many before if I might add). Also I'll need to see a source for such claims.
Steam
Smash Hero
I'm not going to try to look that poll up. but it was something I found awhile back. my words have no bearing on his placement so I don't really need to. though you don't have to look far to find people who like him. as sunny said earlier all he needs is a bunch of people wanting to play as him. but yes eventually lucario won't be popular anymore. if lucario makes the next smash it'll probably be his last unless he somehow becomes the new franchise mascot.
BlueSuperSonic1
Smash Journeyman
I'm pretty sure Pikachu has always been the most popular Pokemon
Steam
Smash Hero
also this, why I said "unless lucario becomes a franchise mascot"I'm pretty sure Pikachu has always been the most popular Pokemon
I didn't say no likes him (I like him as a character in fact), I'm just saying his popularity will be dwindling by the time another SSB is coming out and therefore be pointless to put him in over someone who is raising in popularity. Also, while having a bunch of people wanting to play as a character greatly increases their chances of making it in, there has to be a reason why to add one when it belongs to a franchise that already has a plentiful amount of representatives already.
Steam
Smash Hero
that's the thing though, no one else is really raising in popularity. Zoroark never took off so gen 5 is kinda looking like another gen 3 right now...
also they might be announcing the next smash at E3 this year... so it might not be that far off. and it may or may not be dwindling in the future anyways... you can't say for certain what the future holds. brawl came out more than 10 years after mewtwo existed and people were still foaming at the mouth over him not being in (and they still tried to have him in).
also they might be announcing the next smash at E3 this year... so it might not be that far off. and it may or may not be dwindling in the future anyways... you can't say for certain what the future holds. brawl came out more than 10 years after mewtwo existed and people were still foaming at the mouth over him not being in (and they still tried to have him in).
Barbasol
Smash Ace
If they announce Smash 4 at E3, I'd imagine that would only help the chances of a Gen 5 replacement... If it takes a few years, and things cool off, we'll see who stands the tests of time.
Steam
Smash Hero
There will probably be a gen 5 character in, but they won't replace. there will be a new slot. but they might not considering zoroark kinda failed to be the new lucario and nothing else really stands out as a candidate. maybe victini?
also I still kinda want to see the plusle and minun originally planned for brawl. it won't happen but it would be awesome to see.
ToddCam
Smash Journeyman
We do not all agree. I think Geno would be a terrible choice for Square-Enix, a company with several franchises, because a vocal minority of players of a Mario game want him in. I will never understand this obsession with this doll. I would love to play as Goombario, but I have no illusion that he will ever make it in.
All of your opinions on Lucario are clearly biased. And you won't even give examples of this unrelenting popularity of Lucario. Even if this poll is real, and it was done scientifically, a poll is a snapshot in time. You need to have a series of polls in order to show a trend. Was Lucario popular in 2007? How about 2008? 2009, 2010, 2011. You cite Lucario's popularity as preventing it from being replaced, but that same popularity argument could easily be used for any other Pokémon character. Do you have evidence that Blaziken was less popular at the time of Lucario's debut than Lucario is now? And where are your figures for Zoroark's supposed fall from grace? You can't just assume people will believe you.
Steam
Smash Hero
I don't need people to believe me :/ what I say has no effect on anything so actually digging up numbers would be stupid. but you can see lucario's presense in various random promotional nintendo things, and just his general popularity. it's not something you see commonly with many other pokes... of course there's no way I could PROVE it.
and my opinions on lucario are based on observation. I do like him a lot but I actually don't really want him in the next smash because he was perfect for me in brawl and I don't want him to get ruined in the next one.
and my opinions on lucario are based on observation. I do like him a lot but I actually don't really want him in the next smash because he was perfect for me in brawl and I don't want him to get ruined in the next one.
That's because he was
1) In SSBM
2) Part of the first generation when most people were introduced to Pokemon. Many stopped there due to them not liking the next generations but still like the set of pokemon they were first introduced.
Barbasol
Smash Ace
Well, if you aren't willing to back up what you say, and you don't think you have an effect... so why say them in the first place? No offense, but you see my point right.
When I discussed pokemon popularity I cited a new poll with
Arceus
Darkrai
Deoxys
Pikachu
Mew
as being the top five, and cited a link to the contest results. That's more legitimate than saying some vague popularity trend that could be totally in ones own perception.
ToddCam
Smash Journeyman
What does "general popularity" mean?
I'm not arguing with you about whether or not Lucario is still popular. My sense of the Pokémon fandom is a limited one, as I have no interest in the competitive scene, and most other discussion I am aware of is about the Gen 5 Pokémon or the anime. I raised up a Lucario in my Platinum game, and love the thing, but it doesn't make me believe it's immune to replacement in an all-encompassing Nintendo franchise game.
I just think that if you are going to use something as an argument, you need to back it up. You have repeatedly talked about how Lucario's popularity is undying, and that those who were children at the time of its debut will never leave Lucario's side, forsaking all others. To me that's a very hyperbolic statement.
I'm not arguing with you about whether or not Lucario is still popular. My sense of the Pokémon fandom is a limited one, as I have no interest in the competitive scene, and most other discussion I am aware of is about the Gen 5 Pokémon or the anime. I raised up a Lucario in my Platinum game, and love the thing, but it doesn't make me believe it's immune to replacement in an all-encompassing Nintendo franchise game.
I just think that if you are going to use something as an argument, you need to back it up. You have repeatedly talked about how Lucario's popularity is undying, and that those who were children at the time of its debut will never leave Lucario's side, forsaking all others. To me that's a very hyperbolic statement.
AetherEch0s
Smash Journeyman
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It really doesn't matter how popular something is. Sakurai had a poll to see which characters people wanted in Brawl, and only like 5 of them made it, and those were from the top and bottom of the poll. He isnt choosing them based on popularity. He picks ones that could have a unique playstyle, then if they dont work the way he wants, or they run short of time, he resorts to cloning an existing character. NOBODY can possibly know what will make it. Zoroark would probably have a unique moveset, and being new, could have a chance, but who knows if it will replace Lucario or not. If Sakurai likes Lucario enough, he might stay. We cant hope to imagine how he thinks.
You mean nobody can KNOW. I don't see why no one can guess.
AetherEch0s
Smash Journeyman
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Yeah, thats what i meant. Corrected.
Spydr Enzo
Smash Ace
@Steam:
I really don't think Lucario is as popular as you think he is. Basically every other post I see from you is talking about how "Lucario is one of the most popular Pokemon ever and more popular than any 5th-generation Pokemon" or something like that. And yet, you don't provide anything to back up this notion. Praising a character's popularity without backing it up is something that doesn't really work around here.
A popular Pokemon was cut (Mewtwo) and a latest and greatest (Lucario) was introduced in the past, why is it so ridiculous that the same should happen again? If Lucario is so popular, prove it in some way. And to be honest, popularity does not matter in the designer's roster selections as much as you might think, unless it's a character like Wario and Sonic... and I certainly hope you do not place Lucario on their level.
EDIT: Also, where are you getting all this information about Zoroark's popularity decreasing? And I think you should realize that Lucario is really nothing special. Every generation always has one or more Pokemon that are promoted all over the place and as a result, become very popular. Lucario's had his turn, and now with the fifth generation out (which I really don't think is as much of a failure as you make it out to be), new Pokemon like Zoroark and Victini take the stage. I think it is very likely that Zoroark or Victini (bets on Zoroark) will replace Lucario.
I really don't think Lucario is as popular as you think he is. Basically every other post I see from you is talking about how "Lucario is one of the most popular Pokemon ever and more popular than any 5th-generation Pokemon" or something like that. And yet, you don't provide anything to back up this notion. Praising a character's popularity without backing it up is something that doesn't really work around here.
A popular Pokemon was cut (Mewtwo) and a latest and greatest (Lucario) was introduced in the past, why is it so ridiculous that the same should happen again? If Lucario is so popular, prove it in some way. And to be honest, popularity does not matter in the designer's roster selections as much as you might think, unless it's a character like Wario and Sonic... and I certainly hope you do not place Lucario on their level.
EDIT: Also, where are you getting all this information about Zoroark's popularity decreasing? And I think you should realize that Lucario is really nothing special. Every generation always has one or more Pokemon that are promoted all over the place and as a result, become very popular. Lucario's had his turn, and now with the fifth generation out (which I really don't think is as much of a failure as you make it out to be), new Pokemon like Zoroark and Victini take the stage. I think it is very likely that Zoroark or Victini (bets on Zoroark) will replace Lucario.
Steam
Smash Hero
that poll was a poll to see what pokemon people wanted to be obtainable in black/white. hence the dream world event arceus. that's really nothing to go off of lol and why all of them but pikachu were legendaries.
edit: Lucario was already well known and generally liked by brawl's release... this isn't something you can neccecarily say for anything from gen 5. It can change and probably will. Also there's nothing I can do to back what I say up but there's also nothing you can legitimately do to disprove it... this is a speculation thread and means absolutely nothing. And yes, since there really isn't much data on it most of this is from my experience. I seem to see lucario's face everywhere when some pokemon promotional thing pops up somewhere that isn't directly related to gen 5... I swear every little child I've ever met thinks he's god, and it's something I've never seen with any gen 5 poke. yeah this is all from my experience but this is a highly opinionated thread anyways.
Barbasol
Smash Ace
No, it's an actual fact to go off. You haven't provided any. the link I gave, while limited in scope, does show desirability. I mean... come on, a Pikachu made it onto the list. If a pokemon like Lucario (who's only attainable once by egg) in game gets beaten out by a common, thats not a good sign
majora_787
Smash Hero
Lucario and Pokemon Trainer are probably going to be the only characters cut, for Zoroark and a new Pokemon Trainer. None of the others are going anywhere, and Mewtwo is probably going to be coming in like he was planned to.
Your ignoring the fact that people don't like him. Sure, some people do, but your better off not trying to annoy people than trying to please a few. There is no hostility for Toad, or, at least no more than the people who might get pissed because X wasn't in (think all of the R.O.B. hate).
Steam
Smash Hero
I dunno, I for one would be annoyed if toad made it in. like seriously? toad doesn't fight lol. Bowser jr just fits it better (not to mention would be easier to design). as for how well recieved they'd be I have no idea... don't really follow them
@barbasol- you get riolus in the wild in black/white, no reason for an event lucario >.> Also pikachu isn't obtainable in black/white by normal means... so yeah that poll isn't valid for the situation, I certainly wouldn't vote for lucario in that poll... would be quite dumb
and if lucario gets cut then there will be no mewtwo... mewtwo's the same thing as lucario but even older... so ehhh...
Gengar84
Smash Hero
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Hey guys, I've been reading this topic for a while and thought I'd contribute on the whole Lucario discussion.
According to IGN's Top 100 most popular Pokemon poll (where over 14 million people voted), it says that Lucario is the 32nd most popular Pokemon of all time. While that's actually really good, it isn't quite the most popular Pokemon ever. Mewtwo, on the other hand, is the 2nd most popular Pokemon ever (behind Charizard). That really says something. Zoroark is already the 68th most popular Pokemon and he hasn't really had the chance to grow on anybody yet.
If it matters to anybody, I'm a huge fan of both Lucario and Mewtwo and I'd really love to see both return along with Zoroark.
Here's the link:
http://www.ign.com/top/pokemon
According to IGN's Top 100 most popular Pokemon poll (where over 14 million people voted), it says that Lucario is the 32nd most popular Pokemon of all time. While that's actually really good, it isn't quite the most popular Pokemon ever. Mewtwo, on the other hand, is the 2nd most popular Pokemon ever (behind Charizard). That really says something. Zoroark is already the 68th most popular Pokemon and he hasn't really had the chance to grow on anybody yet.
If it matters to anybody, I'm a huge fan of both Lucario and Mewtwo and I'd really love to see both return along with Zoroark.
Here's the link:
http://www.ign.com/top/pokemon
ToddCam
Smash Journeyman
Where is your evidence that Bowser Jr. is more disliked than liked? Just because he is *apparently* favored only by younger fans doesn't make it so. As an older fan myself, I find him redundant, as any of the Koopalings could have filled his role, but I can see that others could appreciate him, as he took a more prominent position in plot than any of his siblings.
No offense, Smashchu, but I think you weigh too many tiny factors in the decisions in the prospective buyers of future installments. Whether Tingle, Bowser Jr., or even the ludicrous Geno, I think very few people are going to eschew buying the game on the decision to include a character. Perhaps for the exclusion, but not the inclusion.
BlueSuperSonic1
Smash Journeyman
You could already catch Riolu in Black and White without the Dream World. You couldn't catch Pikachu in Black and White, hence why Pikachu was on that list.No, it's an actual fact to go off. You haven't provided any. the link I gave, while limited in scope, does show desirability. I mean... come on, a Pikachu made it onto the list. If a pokemon like Lucario (who's only attainable once by egg) in game gets beaten out by a common, thats not a good sign
majora_787
Smash Hero
I'm just saying, I think Toad is more annoying than Bowser Jr. Not to say I don't think he's annoying. If he didn't make such obnoxious noises, I'd like him more, but I still think he's more tolerable than Toad.
Steam
Smash Hero
That's pretty interesting. I still wanna see where all these silent gengar/alakazam fans are. though I'm not surprised at all to be perfectly honest. the older generations will be much more represented on a videogame forum where you'll find more of the more hardcore/older generation of gamers. lol Zoroark is 68th... even at this stage that's very very low. and he'd be higher if more casual gamers were thrown in, same with most of the newer ones IMO.
edit: also the process of that poll is a bit questionable. It was done by taking two random pokemon and having the person choose the better one. Plenty of the older generation hate lucario and other newer pokemon (such as zoroark) and as such were likely dragged down greatly by having any given pokemon chosen over them. It's probably why so many first gens that are a bit obscure were boted so high. so in this poll being hated means as much as being loved, completely valid in most situations... but something that probably isn't true for selection in smash as stated above.
while significant (and honestly a good way to balance out love/hate characters) it doesn't really apply to smash selection... They're going to go with the ones with hardcore fans, even if plenty of people hate them as well over the ones that people just kinda like (sonic in brawl but not various others like K.rool)
Zap tackle
Smash Journeyman
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- 254
Again about Toad not being able to fight?...Guess you never played SMB 2, Wario's Woods and New Super Mario Bros. Wii...
Also being easier to develop is not Jr.'s key for smash. That just makes him more likely to be a clone. Sakurai and the rest of the developers like unique characters; however, time constraints sometimes pressure them to make up these moves and clones.
majora_787
Smash Hero
I'm not saying I believe Toad can't make it because of lack of fighting potential, but be fair: How many of those games did he essentially just jump on enemies, not counting generic powerups?
But still. It depends on what is wanted at the time. Do they want a more recent character, or another classic?
OR! Here's a thought! Maybe they should focus on unrepresented or underrepresented series like Donkey Kong, Metroid, and Kid Icarus.
Gengar84
Smash Hero
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Take a look at my avatar and screen name lol. Even though I since changed my name to Aafyre on other boards like Kitty Korp Meow Mix, Gengar has always been my favorite Pokemon. He stayed that way all the way into 5th gen where Cofagrigus might possibly beat him as my top favorite. Unfortunately I don't see either of them ever being playable in Smash (aside from my Gengar over Wario in Brawl
).
Zap tackle
Smash Journeyman
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How many games did Mario, Luigi and the other protagonists just jump on enemies? Countless amounts and that's what defines the Mario series. That is why Luigi, Peach, Bowser, and even Mario got a few moves that they never used before in the Smash series. Honestly, I'm sure Nintendo can give Toad a unique moveset if they wanted to.
Being just new and shiny doesn't guarantee you a spot. I'm surprised by a lot of these posts against Toad (not your's but others I read) as even though Jr. is recent, so is Toad. He still appears in all of the same new games jr. is in, and all of the young fans recognize him too.
Now for something completely different; I think SSB 4 should have DLC/patches so more characters can be added to the game and also so they can be balanced better. I'm assuming the Cafe will be able to pull this off easily if it's more powerful then a PS3 and if Nintendo decides to actually have up to date technology this time around (outside of controllers).
majora_787
Smash Hero
We're talking the difference between Toad, a recurring, obnoxious, minor character, and Mario, the series protagonist and company mascot. Luigi has the same excuse. Peach, true, but Bowser, in all technicality, had the most moveset potential of all of them.
majora_787
Smash Hero
DLC? I would love DLC. They'd never need to make another Smash Bros. as long as they come out with new content every number of months, like a new character, a new stage, a new mode, a new something.
I think they should try it just once.
I think they should try it just once.
Zap tackle
Smash Journeyman
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But that's the thing. We already have all the major Mario characters in. Now we need to look into the somewhat major characters and that leaves us either with Toad or Jr.. Toad is a humanoid mushroom, he can many attacks and abilities based on his spore emitting and mushroom growing abilities which he expressed in some of the past Mario games. They could easily due this. Remember Peach like you stated? She even needed Toad for her moveset to be completed and she was only playable in one actual Mario game up to date (SMB 2 which Toad was also playable in). Therefore, Toad is beating her in terms of playability (2 games). In reality, Toad is a very flexible character in terms of movesets. Jr. on the other hand has been stated to being Bowser's son who resembles him the most (clone messages anyone?).
Note: I am a fan of Jr.; however, I just feel that Toad deserves it over him.
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