[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[ArsArcanum]

I know it'll never happen, but I want Sora and Neku Sakuraba in the next game. As long as Sora has Zantetsuken as his dsmash I would be happy.

 

[Big-Cat]

@Kuma: An extra attack button always sounded unnecessary. If you really want to increase the number of moves characters have, why not some sort of new item that changes certain moves? Like the beam sword and whatnot, but functionally different (and maybe you can't throw it), so I guess a little more like the Screw Attack in some way.

The problem with that is that you'd just be homogenizing the cast. Not only that, but it doesn't really change the way the game is played (for better or worse) once you look at the characters themselves.

The reason I suggested the new attack button (let's consider the normals to be the Light and Heavy Buttons) was so that the playstyles could be better expressed and be made more distinct. I know you're about simplicity, but sometimes you can have something too simple, in my opinion at least.

Now that I think about it, the new button would add 5 tilts, 3 Smashes, and 5 Aerials. I don't think adding 13 attacks is going to confuse anyone when the inputs are so simple.

 

[PD4FR]

The problem with that is that you'd just be homogenizing the cast. Not only that, but it doesn't really change the way the game is played (for better or worse) once you look at the characters themselves.

The reason I suggested the new attack button (let's consider the normals to be the Light and Heavy Buttons) was so that the playstyles could be better expressed and be made more distinct. I know you're about simplicity, but sometimes you can have something too simple, in my opinion at least.

Now that I think about it, the new button would add 4 tilts, 3 Smashes, and 5 Aerials. I don't think adding twelve attacks is going to confuse anyone.

You want 10 aerials without even considering Specials? I guess I can see that happening, but still...

 

[Big-Cat]

You want 10 aerials without even considering Specials? I guess I can see that happening, but still...

It's a thought, but I'm so used to having around that many normals that maybe it doesn't bother me. I mean SF characters can have 6-12 aerials not counting specials and select air grabs. Then again, those mostly function as NAir and FAir attacks. On the other hand, BlazBlue's ground normals work EXACTLY like SSB's tilts (though Taokaka's C attacks can be charged like Smash Attacks).

 

[ElPanandero]

I like the idea of a third attack button, though didn't we toss around the idea of it being a singluar situational button a little Kuma?

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

The problem with that is that you'd just be homogenizing the cast.

Well a somewhat homogenized cast is one of Smash's main selling points, so...

Not only that, but it doesn't really change the way the game is played (for better or worse) once you look at the characters themselves.

I don't think it's necessary to change the characters themselves that much as opposed to the context (IE boss battles instead of regular survival matches). Also each game tends to introduce some really unique traits with its newcomers, so why mess with the old so drastically?

The reason I suggested the new attack button (let's consider the normals to be the Light and Heavy Buttons) was so that the playstyles could be better expressed and be made more distinct. I know you're about simplicity, but sometimes you can have something too simple, in my opinion at least.

Now that I think about it, the new button would add 5 tilts, 3 Smashes, and 5 Aerials. I don't think adding 13 attacks is going to confuse anyone when the inputs are so simple.

I disagree with this and I think you and I personally have discussed this a bit (too simple by your standards but not by everyone else's, etc.), so I might back out if doing so means you get to talk about it with someone new.

 

[SuperMetroid44]

Just because Meowth isn't a fighter in the anime doesn't mean the whole Meowth species in the games cannot fight at all.

Well, what is Zoroark exactly if he's not a furry? What can I use to describe him? An anthromorphic fox? Well, that's what a furry is. A furry is basically any anthromorphic animal.

Dude, I swear... you shouldn't comment on things you don't know. A furry is a person who has an artistic, social, emotional, affectional, and/or often associate themselves with an anthropomorphic character.

FURRIES isn't just a anthromorphic character, it's a person who as stated above, represents themself as a animal, not just a humaniod character. Seriously, your logic annoys me. >.<

 

[tommypezmaster]

How about SSB4's adventure mode devides certain characters in teams
[note: my newer version of my earlyer idea.

==Playable Ideas==

(* means New Comer)

The Heoric 5:
Mario
Link
Yoshi
Kirby
Pit

The Evil Team:
Bowser
Gannondorf
King Dedede
Wario
Wolf

Team Falcon:
Captain Falcon
Olimar
Pikachu
Samus/Zeor Suit
Louie*

Team Snake:
Snake
Lucario
Meta-Knight
Peach
Game & Watch

Team Fox:
Fox
Falco
Diddy Kong
Poke'mon Trainer
Lucus

Team Ness:
Ness
Luigi
Ice Climbers
Dixie Kong*
Funky Kong*

Team Sonic:
Sonic
Crash Bandicoot*
Coco Bandicoot*
Rayman*
Kolona*

Team Marona:
Marriona (Phantom Brave)*
Ash (Phantom Brave)*
Globox*
I-Ninja*
Rick (Kirby)*

Team Strong Bad:
(Beacause of His Wii game)
Strong Bad]
Mona (Wario Ware)*
Dr. Eggman*
Dr. Neo Cortex*
Count Razoff (Rayman)*

Team Tak:
Tak*
Jeera (Tak & The Power of JuJu)*
White Bomber (Bomberman)*
Tailes*
Knuckles*

Team Lok:
(Make it like Lok wants vengence on Tak for being replace by Jeera, So he can kiddnap 4 Nintendo characters & put them in N-Trance's [[Brain Washing Helmets]] as seen in "Crash Nitro Kart")
Lok (Tak & The Power of Juju)*
Donkey Kong
[Ike
Zelda]]/[[Sheik
The President (Pikmin)*

Team Paper Mario
Paper Mario*
Paper Princess Peach*
Goombella*
Koops*
Amiral Bobbery]*

Team Starfy
Starfy (Former AT)
Moe*
Mermaid*
Susumu Hori (Mr. Driller) *
Anna Hottenmeyer (Mr. Driller)*

False Team
(Playable in Free Brawl Only)
False Peach (Former Boss)
False Zelda (Former Boss, dosn't turn into Sheik)
False Diddy Kong (Former boss)
False White Bomer*
False Tak*
False Neo Cortex*
False Razoff*
False Mermaid*


The Boss Team
(These Characters won't be playable in my Idea)
King K. Roo*
Fire Owl-**** (Kirby)*
Shake King (Wario Land)*
Dingodile*
Trogdor (Strong Bad's CGFAP)*
Giant Snow Owl (Tak & The Power of Juju)*

Are these teams a good Idea?

 

[Moogi]

How about SSB4's adventure mode devides certain characters in teams
[note: my newer version of my earlyer idea.

==Playable Ideas==

(* means New Comer)

The Heoric 5:
Mario
Link
Yoshi
Kirby
Pit

The Evil Team:
Bowser
Gannondorf
King Dedede
Wario
Wolf

Team Falcon:
Captain Falcon
Olimar
Pikachu
Samus/Zeor Suit
Louie*

Team Snake:
Snake
Lucario
Meta-Knight
Peach
Game & Watch

Team Fox:
Fox
Falco
Diddy Kong
Poke'mon Trainer
Lucus

Team Ness:
Ness
Luigi
Ice Climbers
Dixie Kong*
Funky Kong*

Team Sonic:
Sonic
Crash Bandicoot*
Coco Bandicoot*
Rayman*
Kolona*

Team Marona:
Marriona (Phantom Brave)*
Ash (Phantom Brave)*
Globox*
I-Ninja*
Rick (Kirby)*

Team Strong Bad:
(Beacause of His Wii game)
Strong Bad]
Mona (Wario Ware)*
Dr. Eggman*
Dr. Neo Cortex*
Count Razoff (Rayman)*

Team Tak:
Tak*
Jeera (Tak & The Power of JuJu)*
White Bomber (Bomberman)*
Tailes*
Knuckles*

Team Lok:
(Make it like Lok wants vengence on Tak for being replace by Jeera, So he can kiddnap 4 Nintendo characters & put them in N-Trance's [[Brain Washing Helmets]] as seen in "Crash Nitro Kart")
Lok (Tak & The Power of Juju)*
Donkey Kong
[Ike
Zelda]]/[[Sheik
The President (Pikmin)*

Team Paper Mario
Paper Mario*
Paper Princess Peach*
Goombella*
Koops*
Amiral Bobbery]*

Team Starfy
Starfy (Former AT)
Moe*
Mermaid*
Susumu Hori (Mr. Driller) *
Anna Hottenmeyer (Mr. Driller)*

False Team
(Playable in Free Brawl Only)
False Peach (Former Boss)
False Zelda (Former Boss, dosn't turn into Sheik)
False Diddy Kong (Former boss)
False White Bomer*
False Tak*
False Neo Cortex*
False Razoff*
False Mermaid*


The Boss Team
(These Characters won't be playable in my Idea)
King K. Roo*
Fire Owl-**** (Kirby)*
Shake King (Wario Land)*
Dingodile*
Trogdor (Strong Bad's CGFAP)*
Giant Snow Owl (Tak & The Power of Juju)*

Are these teams a good Idea?

Not to be rude, but most of these characters probably won't be in Smash.

Not saying you shouldn't stop thinking about it, but yeahh.

I'd also rather there wasn't a story mode, unless they somehow executed it properly, with different goals each time. (eg: less 'Get to the goal', things like collect this much of this, chase after this person, some sort of fun minigame here, heck, there's plenty of things Sakurai could've done other than The Kirby Super Star Emissary, etc.)

As long as they focus on multiplayer gameplay first, and save the extra little single player modes later on, I'd be perfectly fine with a Single Player. Who knows, a dual-layered disk for the next-gen console could probably multiply the Wii's capabilities! Then again, I'm pulling straws here -____-

 

[Big-Cat]

I like the idea of a third attack button, though didn't we toss around the idea of it being a singluar situational button a little Kuma?

Yeah, we were talking about it in more of a Drive context. I don't think it would work in the long run considering it would probably be difficult to create "Drives" that aren't repetitions of some other character's (ie transformation).

Well a somewhat homogenized cast is one of Smash's main selling points, so...

Yet, ironically, Brawl has one of the most unbalanced rosters in a modern fighting game. Although, I think what you and I refer to by homogenized is under two different contexts. What I meant by homogenized was that there wasn't much of a difference between styles, if at all.

I think you're referring to how the roster's characters essentially follow a template save for some Side Specials like the Boomerang. Just so you know, templates are kind of the standard in 2D fighters, but this applies to everything that isn't a special attack or some unique normal (such as an overhead). 3D fighters like Tekken and Soul Caliber don't really follow templates save for universal attacks like grabs.

But yeah, I think it would be best if I discussed it with someone new. Speaking of which, it's interesting that you-know-who hasn't pounced me yet.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

I should also mention before I snooze that I consider balance in itself to be subjective. What might make a character crap tier in certain circles might be unheard of in others (like how most Smash players don't know what DI is or how most Pokemon players don't use Stealth Rock).

There's more balance theory stuff I wanna talk about but I'd be an idiot not to hop into bed within the next 5 minutes, so that's later I guess (and only if you wanna hear it).

Speaking of which, it's interesting that you-know-who hasn't pounced me yet.

he got the big C

Spoiler

gone for summer probably

 

[UberMario]

I don't think a second standard attack button would be a good idea, one special and one standard is good enough, and the addition of more attack buttons could hurt potental newcomers. However, I have a similar idea, what if characters could do smash aerials? For example, tilts could be damage-rackers while smashes could be meteors, spikes, wall-of-pains, etc. Grabs in midair would also be more interesting, especially if they resulted in body slam throws.

And I love how people point out how Brawl has an unbalanced roster, then don't mention how Melee is almost all Fox, Falco, Shiek, Jigglypuff, and Marth for the most part. >_> I mean, Fox vs. Mewtwo is pretty much an obvious murder for the latter. Kirby is also as worthless as Ganondorf is in Brawl, I mean two of his throws can kill him without even taking the person being thrown with him. >_>

 

[Big-Cat]

I should also mention before I snooze that I consider balance in itself to be subjective. What might make a character crap tier in certain circles might be unheard of in others (like how most Smash players don't know what DI is or how most Pokemon players don't use Stealth Rock).

There's more balance theory stuff I wanna talk about but I'd be an idiot not to hop into bed within the next 5 minutes, so that's later I guess (and only if you wanna hear it).

he got the big C

Spoiler

gone for summer probably

I guess you can say balance is subjective, but only to a certain degree. When I look at balancing, I see it as "How is this character compared to other characters assuming that their full potential is tapped." This is partially because the competitive players will practically dissect the game to see what they can do. The other reason, that may make more sense to some, is that I consider the skill levels to be kind of like the levels in a Mario game. The lower level of play, or "casual", would consist of the easiest levels where as the top level of play has the hardest levels requiring you to use the skills you've accumulated to clear it. Maybe another way of putting it would be easy and hard mode for any given videogame.

This kind of goes back to my philosophy : Make games so everyone can enjoy them, whether they want to just have mindless fun, or have an epic battle of wits and execution. I think this is somewhat similar to what Sakurai has been aiming for but our definitions for "everyone" seem to differ.

Anyway, I want to hear more on this balance theory stuff. If you decide to continue the conversation, I'll try to find Sirlin and Sonic Hurricane articles on the subject.

As for that guy.....

I've seen him being his usual self in the VGChartz forums.

I don't think a second standard attack button would be a good idea, one special and one standard is good enough, and the addition of more attack buttons could hurt potental newcomers. However, I have a similar idea, what if characters could do smash aerials? For example, tilts could be damage-rackers while smashes could be meteors, spikes, wall-of-pains, etc. Grabs in midair would also be more interesting, especially if they resulted in body slam throws.

And I love how people point out how Brawl has an unbalanced roster, then don't mention how Melee is almost all Fox, Falco, Shiek, Jigglypuff, and Marth for the most part. >_> I mean, Fox vs. Mewtwo is pretty much an obvious murder for the latter. Kirby is also as worthless as Ganondorf is in Brawl, I mean two of his throws can kill him without even taking the person being thrown with him. >_>

How would more attack buttons hurt potential newcomers? Sometimes, I wonder if this isn't so much a concern for newcomers as it is being afraid of change.

And yes, I know Melee had its balance issues, but I think it got worse in Brawl. I still can't get over how Fox, Samus, and Peach feel so weird and wrong in Brawl what with Fox sinking like a brick, Peach's second jump being stupidly nerfed, and Samus just sucking almost to make Zamus look good.

 

[ChronoBound]

As for that guy.....

I've seen him being his usual self in the VGChartz forums.

.

I don't post at VGChartz, and I have not been commentating lately because there has been little to comment on.

However, of interest next week will be the reveal of the Japanese release date for the 3DS on September 29. I am guessing that Star Fox 64 3D will be a launch title, and Kid Icarus Uprising will come out a few months after launch. I think the 3DS will launch this year in Japan, however, it won't launch until March for North America.

 

[UberMario]

would more attack buttons hurt potential newcomers? Sometimes, I wonder if this isn't so much a concern for newcomers as it is being afraid of change.

If a character has an already limited amount of potential for a moveset, Olimar for example, then adding 14 (9 ground, 5 aerial) attacks will make it much harder to create a set for, seriously, what could you really add to a character like him? At least with my aerial smash idea it's only adding 4 attacks.

 

[PD4FR]

If a character has an already limited amount of potential for a moveset, Olimar for example, then adding 14 (9 ground, 5 aerial) attacks will make it much harder to create a set for, seriously, what could you really add to a character like him? At least with my aerial smash idea it's only adding 4 attacks.

With the exception of Olimar possibly, I can imagine having extra air attacks. You know, the 4 normal ones, and then 4 new ones. Think of them like the tilits of aerials. Olimar could possibly have 4 extra aerials that are quite slower/stronger than his normal aerials, that involve multiple Pikmin being thrown or something. I'm just throwing it out there.

For another example, one of Jigglypuff's extra aerials could easily have to do with a marker. (You know, from the Anime)

Edit - Uber Mario, don't you mean 7 ground attacks would be added?

 

[UberMario]

With the exception of Olimar possibly, I can imagine having extra air attacks. You know, the 4 normal ones, and then 4 new ones. Think of them like the tilits of aerials. Olimar could possibly have 4 extra aerials that are quite slower/stronger than his normal aerials, that involve multiple Pikmin being thrown or something. I'm just throwing it out there.

True, but I don't think it would be possible to make 12 unique, new standard moves for him, as Kuma indirectly suggested.

Edit - Uber Mario, don't you mean 7 ground attacks would be added?

Yeah, I ended up writing 9 because I was thinking of both left and right, though both directions would most likely have the same attack (like the current standard button) if this theoretical second standard attack button did exist.

 

[RVD_fan]

Has a case been made thus far for the slime from Dragon Quest? He's been in pretty much every Dragon Quest game and could potentially have a really wierd/awsome moveset.

Also, Ryan Kesler from NHL 2K11.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

I guess you can say balance is subjective, but only to a certain degree. When I look at balancing, I see it as "How is this character compared to other characters assuming that their full potential is tapped." This is partially because the competitive players will practically dissect the game to see what they can do. The other reason, that may make more sense to some, is that I consider the skill levels to be kind of like the levels in a Mario game. The lower level of play, or "casual", would consist of the easiest levels where as the top level of play has the hardest levels requiring you to use the skills you've accumulated to clear it. Maybe another way of putting it would be easy and hard mode for any given videogame.

Okay, well, that goes back to the point that very few players achieve a character's full potential, or at least close enough to full. That plus skill not being... "linear" I guess, in that being adept in one situation (like fighting Marth) doesn't mean you're good at another (like fighting DK).

That's how we end up with various claims that "Pikachu's down-B is too good!" or "Wolf is broken!" or whatever. In these cases, player skill is much more of a factor than character potential, but the former gets confused for the latter. As long as something isn't drastically over- or under-powered so that the character matters far more than the difference in skill, we're in good shape.*


Now I'd agree that maintaining some sort of balance with high-level play would be pretty sweet, except we have this problem:

"This is partially because the competitive players will practically dissect the game to see what they can do."

Dissecting a static game over two years between decently sized communities is one thing, but Sakurai's balancing team probably had a few weeks or a month between changes and they had way less people.** Realistically, there's no way they would've picked up on every problem and had it balanced the way SmashBoards and pals would've wanted it.

The best solution for the high-level players is pretty much what they've already decided: take the game into their own hands. Sakurai can't spend his career making the perfect competitive fighter, he's got other games to make. The people here, however, can make their own tournament rules or hack the game to forcibly balance it themselves in their own time. They've got ideas for what should be done and way more people on board, so why not? Beats whining.



* Yeah yeah I know, Meta Knight. He's not actually nearly as bad as stuff from all sorts of other games, though he does clearly have an edge on everyone else.

** Credits list:
- 11 people for "Planning and Level Design" (probably not character testers, but who knows)
- 38 people for "Programming" (probably did at least some light testing)
- 10 people for "Programming Support" (same as above or a euphemism for devoted tester)
- 1 person for "Testing" (good for him!)

This kind of goes back to my philosophy : Make games so everyone can enjoy them, whether they want to just have mindless fun, or have an epic battle of wits and execution. I think this is somewhat similar to what Sakurai has been aiming for but our definitions for "everyone" seem to differ.

Never heard the expression "you can't please everyone," have you?

Sakurai prioritizes accessibility so that new players won't be intimidated by complexity. If that means less depth than other games, fine. There's plenty of games out there that meet our demands for that anyway.

Anyway, I want to hear more on this balance theory stuff. If you decide to continue the conversation, I'll try to find Sirlin and Sonic Hurricane articles on the subject.

I only wanna read Kuma articles right now. I've already read Sirlin's stuff and I don't care about that other guy.

------------------------------------zoop

I don't post at VGChartz, and I have not been commentating lately because there has been little to comment on.

The person in question most definitely posts on VGChartz, you most definitely do not.

I like how you still figured he was talking about you in spite of that.



@RVD: Starphoenix is the go-to DQ guy around here, $5 says he'll have the detailed paragraph you're looking for by dinner time.

 

[ElPanandero]

I sort of agree with aspects of both of you guys.

Kuma's got it right that the Competetive community should not be completely shut out, but Toise is right with simplicity is probably a good idea (however lame that may be ).

I feel like Brawl was semi-balanced well, with the obvious flaws of the ends of the Teirs. Triforce Teir and Meaknight/Snake simply need to be buffed or nerfed respectively. Anyone who plays the game can tell they're outliers.

nintendo should get some form of Beta availibale to the public for balancing. It wouldn't tak emore than a week for the dedicated to show the inherient flaws of Meta/Snake or Ganon/Link.

One thing to keep in mind though is that the casuals won't notice if a game is balanced or unbalanced, but a competetive will.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Yeah, that's pretty much why I support modding the game. Nintendo has much bigger stuff to worry about than a competitive Brawl scene, but the people here are doing so much themselves that it's kind of a non-issue as far as I can tell.

 

[Big-Cat]

Okay, well, that goes back to the point that very few players achieve a character's full potential, or at least close enough to full. That plus skill not being... "linear" I guess, in that being adept in one situation (like fighting Marth) doesn't mean you're good at another (like fighting DK).

That's just the matchups. Naturally, because characters are going to excel in certain areas, the ones that excel in the areas that they're weak against will have a difficult time against those that have that strength. It's kind of a balance via imbalance depending on how you look at it. Of course, I think you already know about this kind of thing.

Now I'd agree that maintaining some sort of balance with high-level play would be pretty sweet, except we have this problem:

"This is partially because the competitive players will practically dissect the game to see what they can do."

Dissecting a static game over two years between decently sized communities is one thing, but Sakurai's balancing team probably had a few weeks or a month between changes and they had way less people.** Realistically, there's no way they would've picked up on every problem and had it balanced the way SmashBoards and pals would've wanted it.

And that's understandable minus the idea of them only working on balancing for a month at most. With a roster of 39 characters, it seems like a bad idea to spend only that much time balancing everyone, especially with such a small amount of people on board testing it whereas we've had public betas for games like Halo 3 ODST, Final Fantasy XIV, and Starcraft 2.

The best solution for the high-level players is pretty much what they've already decided: take the game into their own hands. Sakurai can't spend his career making the perfect competitive fighter, he's got other games to make. The people here, however, can make their own tournament rules or hack the game to forcibly balance it themselves in their own time. They've got ideas for what should be done and way more people on board, so why not? Beats whining.

While taking things into your own hands make sense if you don't like what's given, but that's not a good sign to me for the quality of the game.

Never heard the expression "you can't please everyone," have you?

Sakurai prioritizes accessibility so that new players won't be intimidated by complexity. If that means less depth than other games, fine. There's plenty of games out there that meet our demands for that anyway.

I understand what you mean. I'm for simplicity, but I think there are some things where simplicity is NOT the best option in the long run.

I only wanna read Kuma articles right now. I've already read Sirlin's stuff and I don't care about that other guy.

You might be waiting a lifetime before that happens. I'm not much of a writer and I only have about a year and a half of experience in the fighting game community.

nintendo should get some form of Beta availibale to the public for balancing. It wouldn't tak emore than a week for the dedicated to show the inherient flaws of Meta/Snake or Ganon/Link.

I would keep the beta available for whatever is the standard for those kind of things. Part of the reason is that it may take a little bit to see the weaknesses in some attacks that may at first seem broken. We obviously don't want something nerfed if it doesn't need to be nerfed.

I should mention though that there is a Location Test (otherwise known as Loc Test) going on for the update on BlazBlue Continuum Shift right now that acts as a public beta. Street Fighter IV did the same before it was released in arcades. Perhaps having nationwide loc tests for SSB4 might be the best option. You get a lot of input and you build up a lot of hype. This also gets the professional players involved since they can be heard outside of message boards. Everyone wins.

One thing to keep in mind though is that the casuals won't notice if a game is balanced or unbalanced, but a competetive will.

Actually, a casual player will think it is or isn't depending on their experiences (ie. Pikachu's Thunderbolt being "broken").

 

[Superburns]

Super Smash Brothers Revolution.
Aweome Name.

 

[PSI.kick]

They definitely need to put in megaman zero. I mean, they could make him such an overpowered player if they let him charge up his smash attacks, maybe get his upb as the up+b attack from zero 3 or something, neutral b could be him shooting his buster, charged it could be awesome, down b could be shield boomerang, and over b idk yet, but he could be a fricken awesome character

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

That's just the matchups. Naturally, because characters are going to excel in certain areas, the ones that excel in the areas that they're weak against will have a difficult time against those that have that strength. It's kind of a balance via imbalance depending on how you look at it. Of course, I think you already know about this kind of thing.

Well I was referring more towards someone's ability to respond to whatever coloring their perception of balance, but I think you got where I was coming from anyway.

And that's understandable minus the idea of them only working on balancing for a month at most. With a roster of 39 characters, it seems like a bad idea to spend only that much time balancing everyone, especially with such a small amount of people on board testing it whereas we've had public betas for games like Halo 3 ODST, Final Fantasy XIV, and Starcraft 2.

To be fair, ODST was criticized for not changing much, SC2 took forever and had some questionable changes, and FFXIV is turning out crap despite a near decade of FFXI for SE to figure it out.

Regardless, this is kind of a Nintendo problem rather than a Sakurai problem given their online efforts. If we did get a 50 character cast though, this is definitely something they ought to consider, at least.

While taking things into your own hands make sense if you don't like what's given, but that's not a good sign to me for the quality of the game.

The modding scene is tiny compared to those that play the original version (even just within SmashBoards), so I take that as a pretty good sign of the game's quality. Well, that plus the record-breaking sales.

I understand what you mean. I'm for simplicity, but I think there are some things where simplicity is NOT the best option in the long run.

Smash isn't one of those things though, at least in the public eye.

Yes, it sucks horribly when stuff you love seems like it's holding back from perfection, but that doesn't mean the majority of people don't prefer it as it is. And considering there's still plenty of variety out there from Capcom and anyone else, I don't think it's that big of a deal.

Now if we were talking Wii racing games...

You might be waiting a lifetime before that happens. I'm not much of a writer and I only have about a year and a half of experience in the fighting game community.

I meant more responses instead of links, and you're doing that, so you're aces. At this point I'm worried that our quote jengas are scaring people away, but oh well, more for us.

 

[ElPanandero]

Well, Could Nintendo just make modding a little easier? I understand they don't want there games undercut, but they actively go out of their way to make it difficult.

 

[Pieman0920]

Well, Could Nintendo just make modding a little easier? I understand they don't want there games undercut, but they actively go out of their way to make it difficult.

I really really really don't think Nintendo will ever try to make it so their games will be easily modded. They are incredibly protective as their properties after all.

 

[UberMario]

I really really really don't think Nintendo will ever try to make it so their games will be easily modded. They are incredibly protective as their properties after all.

As are most companies. I'm honestly surprised they even added a stage editor this time. (Though it would have been nice to make it so you could use custom stages online and transfer them to other players mid-play [as in during a session, not a match])

 

[ElPanandero]

Nintendo is worse than anyone else though. Halo 2 got hacked often, and I doubt microsoft didn't know...they just let them. They even went as far as to introduce the forge into 3 and refined it in Reach (or so I've heard).

Nintendo on the other hand...updates their software to make hacks incompatible. I just don't think there's any harm in letting people make your crappy game better

 

[Starphoenix]

Has a case been made thus far for the Slime from Dragon Quest? He's been in pretty much every Dragon Quest game and could potentially have a really weird/awesome moveset.

Also, Ryan Kesler from NHL 2K11.

Yes, Slime has been discussed at certain points throughout this thread. As far as his moveset goes I imagine it incorporating his magical abilities along side some of the mechanics demonstrated in Rocket Slime.

They definitely need to put in megaman zero. I mean, they could make him such an overpowered player if they let him charge up his smash attacks, maybe get his upb as the up+b attack from zero 3 or something, neutral b could be him shooting his buster, charged it could be awesome, down b could be shield boomerang, and over b idk yet, but he could be a fricken awesome character

Honestly Zero would be a much better choice than Megaman. I'm not a big fan of his MMZ design, preferential to Maverick Hunter Zero. Regardless either version would integrate very well, sadly, It is unlikely third party frnachises will see multiple characters and Megaman will undoubtebly (and rightfully) be added alone.

 

[ryuu seika]

Anyone mentioned Wizpig? Most of the other series' have a main villain by now, why shouldn't DK get Diddy Kong Racing's final boss?

 

[UberMario]

Because King K. Rool would fit that role far better.

 

[ElPanandero]

WizPig would be pretty fly. Maybe a DKR Stage Hazard?

 

[ryuu seika]

We'd need DKR stages for that but I would indeed love to see such a thing. Any suggestions?

 

[ElPanandero]

It's been tossed around before, I believ it was a castle-seigish idea.

 

[Rychu]

Hm, may not matter now, but if you guys wanna see my Toad Idea, its on the last page of MYM

 

[Starphoenix]

I think a Donkey Kong Country Returns stage will be just fine without crazy mechanics seen in other stages. There is a reason static stages are generally preferred over the more dynamic ones.

 

[ElPanandero]

I don't care what happens, i just want to see Wizpig do something. Ad Dynamic vs. Static is completely subjective don't forget.

 

[ryuu seika]

Possibly a sidescrolling level that loops around Wizpig's island race with his position being that of the killing edge?

 

[Big-Cat]

I think a Donkey Kong Country Returns stage will be just fine without crazy mechanics seen in other stages. There is a reason static stages are generally preferred over the more dynamic ones.

That reminds me, can we have a game where we don't have a lava Metroid stage.

But yes, a static stage would be nice. What would be even better is if they can back to the way the SSB 64 stages were designed. Aside from a few stages like Brinstar Depths and Wispy Woods, the stages in that game really felt like they were part of the original games. The best examples would have to be Saffron City and Hyrule Castle, which also happen to be fan favorites.