[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[BBQTV]

this is not make your move

 

[DekuBoy]

They spent more time working on Brawl's gameplay than Melee's or 64's.

You can say that you didn't LIKE how it turned out, but to say they didn't devote a ton of time to it or considered it secondary to the seemingly incomplete extras is just completely false.

Link to that please.

They simply did not spend enough time on the fighting engine. They had a lot more time than they did with Melee and it felt slower and less fun. And the extras were underwhelming.

 

[Big-Cat]

Link to that please.

They simply did not spend enough time on the fighting engine. They had a lot more time than they did with Melee and it felt slower and less fun. And the extras were underwhelming.

Just because it feels slower and less fun does not mean they spent enough time on the engine. The only thing I can think of that would suggest they didn't spent much time on the engine is that they used the Havok engine as opposed to making their own.

 

[UberMario]

Link to that please.

They simply did not spend enough time on the fighting engine. They had a lot more time than they did with Melee and it felt slower and less fun. And the extras were underwhelming.

Brawl: Worked on since 2005, nearly four years worth of development.

Melee: Extremely rushed late production in order to get it out for the Gamecube before 2001 ended, the most notable ways to notice this are the shear amount of glitches, the fact that MORE THAN HALF of the video included on the disc IS BETA MATERIAL. (Including the beta version of Hyrule Temple, a beta Mr. Saturn sound, and different game physics [i.e. Samus' Bombs and Mario's Tornado behaved like in SSB64 more than Melee in the video]). the amount of clones and scrapped stages also heavily indicates the game was sped up [no pun intended] in development.

SSB64: Didn't even get a year's worth of development (not even under it's original Dragon King title) because Nintendo thought it would flop and even didn't plan on an international release (until it became extremely popular in Japan). The game isn't lacking in stages and characters due to memory restraints, heck no less than 6 characters and 2 stages were scrapped and two characters didn't even get their own stages.

 

[Big-Cat]

Brawl: Worked on since 2005, nearly four years worth of development.

Three years, but who's counting?

Even with that timespan, you can't necessarily determine how much time they spent on X or Y. Sure, we can assume they spent a good chunk on the gameplay, but we also have the Supbar Emissary they worked on, and the large amount of glitches in this game such as Meta Knight's IDC, Gigallypuff, Ness' stray yo-yos, etc.

A funny thing I noticed when I tried out Brawl+, which added in more hitstun among other things, was that the AI was surprisingly efficient at comboing me which would suggest that the physics engine might have been changed at some point near the end of development.

 

[Spydr Enzo]

Then you're really just dodging the fact that the gameplay hasn't had any major changes, physics not withstanding. Remember this is a fighting game first and foremost. The most important thing, the very thing that gets people to come back and play again, is the gameplay. I honestly don't care about most of the extras in the game as I never look at the trophies or stickers.

Obviously, the fighting is important. I even mentioned later in the post that fighting is still the main point of the game. I never said the gameplay is perfect either, which is what you seem to think I am implying. The gameplay needs changes of course, everyone has known that from the beginning, but while we're at it, why not add some more fun content on the side?

Coin Launcher sucks.

I enjoy it.

There's nothing wrong with some of these modes, but you also have to realize that a good chunk of what you're saying pertains to short term satisfaction. What do you do after you've read and gotten all the trophies and stickers? At least you have stuff like Break the Targets and Home-Run Contest where you can try beating your score (If there is ever a leaderboard for SSB, these two should have it).

Part of the fun is obtaining the trophies and stickers. There are quite a few trophies. Melee has less than half of Brawl's amount of trophies. There are quite a few stickers as well. Collecting these is enough to keep players "satisfied" in collecting them for at least a year. But for those who are less concerned about the fighting, it could just be a little side objective that keeps them occupied for a few years in between their fights.

What do you do after you've gotten all your trophies and stickers? I like to think that the trophies compile a sort of Nintendo encyclopedia. You can look through them, read about them, learn about past Nintendo games or other series that you've never gotten around to trying. Believe it or not, people do that. It's like a neat little Nintendo museum. What other game allows you to look through Ninendo's past into it's present, discovering everything that has made it so great over the years? What better game to do something like that than Smash?

I call it flab, and I wouldn't say, with Brawl, that it's stayed centered around its fighting roots. I'm wiling to say that Brawl went for too much fanservice and not enough substance to back it up.

While improving on gameplay would be a good idea, it isn't all that should be done. And if it didn't stay centered around it's fighting roots, fine by me. There's still fighting in there, isn't there (as much improvement as it does need)?

And the content is very important in Smash, what's wrong with expanding on it? It's not like people don't care about all the Nintendo stuff, and the encyclopedic features have been around since N64's profiles. As far as I can tell, Brawl didn't have enough of it, especially in regards to its unfortunately limited demos.

Gotta agree with Toise. Think about it as more than just a Nintendo fighting game (by now,that's what it is. You should accept that, because the fighting is still there whether it needs to be improved or not). Think about it as a Nintendo museum, or a giant, virtual Nintendo encyclopedia.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Link to that please.

They simply did not spend enough time on the fighting engine. They had a lot more time than they did with Melee and it felt slower and less fun. And the extras were underwhelming.

Is this a SmashBoards thing? Asking for links when you refuse to believe something held as common knowledge? I see it all the time here.

Considering the complaints you have are either deliberate design choices (slower) or vague and subjective (less fun, underwhelming), I really can't see how you've arrived at the conclusion that less time and manpower was spent polishing the core gameplay.

 

[Big-Cat]

Obviously, the fighting is important. I even mentioned later in the post that fighting is still the main point of the game. I never said the gameplay is perfect either, which is what you seem to think I am implying. The gameplay needs changes of course, everyone has known that from the beginning, but while we're at it, why not add some more fun content on the side?

I'm fine with adding more fun content, just make it worth it and not use it as a diversion from the gameplay. Stage Builder and Replay, while limiting for God knows what reason, are examples of fun content and are to be used in junction with the fighting. Coin Launcher does nothing of the sort, and neither do the Masterpieces or Chronicle.

Part of the fun is obtaining the trophies and stickers. There are quite a few trophies. Melee has less than half of Brawl's amount of trophies. There are quite a few stickers as well. Collecting these is enough to keep players "satisfied" in collecting them for at least a year. But for those who are less concerned about the fighting, it could just be a little side objective that keeps theuom occupied for a few years in between their fights.

Why would you be less concerned with the fighting when you bought a fighting game? Isn't that what you buy the game for?

I do agree that part of the fun is obtaining the trophies and stickers. I don't think, though, that trying to get the SSE trophies was fun at all. Try getting Meta-Ridley's trophy when he's away from the ship most of the time.

What do you do after you've gotten all your trophies and stickers? I like to think that the trophies compile a sort of Nintendo encyclopedia. You can look through them, read about them, learn about past Nintendo games or other series that you've never gotten around to trying. Believe it or not, people do that. It's like a neat little Nintendo museum. What other game allows you to look through Ninendo's past into it's present, discovering everything that has made it so great over the years? What better game to do something like that than Smash?

Guess what? You can do the same by going online. Just going to a Nintendo wiki would be enough, but, of course, you have those that won't do that and would rather do what you said.

While improving on gameplay would be a good idea, it isn't all that should be done. And if it didn't stay centered around it's fighting roots, fine by me. There's still fighting in there, isn't there (as much improvement as it does need)?

Wouldn't straying from its roots be a bad thing? Sonic did the same and look what happened to him.

Gotta agree with Toise. Think about it as more than just a Nintendo fighting game (by now,that's what it is. You should accept that, because the fighting is still there whether it needs to be improved or not). Think about it as a Nintendo museum, or a giant, virtual Nintendo encyclopedia.

You sure do repeat yourself a lot.

I think with all this said and done, I think I'll get to what I'd rather see.

Obtaining trophies -

• While not perfect, Melee's trophy bonus stage is something I'd like to see returned and improved on.
• Make obtaining trophies mean something. That little achievement system in Brawl was a good example of this. You didn't gain them so easily so they really felt more like trophies than, say, figurines.
• Maybe use the credits minigame as something akin to places like Chuck E. Cheese. You get a certain score, you have the option to "purchase" certain trophies.

Obtaining stickers -

• I'm mostly fine with this. It wasn't something in the way or pointlessly difficult like obtaining boss trophies. You just simply obtained these, like the CDs, while you were playing.

 

[UberMario]

Three years, but who's counting?

4: 2005, 2006, 2007, and 2008.

Even with that timespan, you can't necessarily determine how much time they spent on X or Y. Sure, we can assume they spent a good chunk on the gameplay, but we also have the Supbar Emissary they worked on, and the large amount of glitches in this game such as Meta Knight's IDC, Gigallypuff, Ness' stray yo-yos, etc.

I do believe the majority of time was spent on the SSE, and the music was a top priority also, that's the only reasoning I can figure for the "lack" of stages and characters and the amount of scrapped stuff.

A funny thing I noticed when I tried out Brawl+, which added in more hitstun among other things, was that the AI was surprisingly efficient at comboing me which would suggest that the physics engine might have been changed at some point near the end of development.

Interesting.

 

[Big-Cat]

4: 2005, 2006, 2007, and 2008.

May 2005-January 2008 is around 32 months, give or take, that's two years and eight months. Yes, you can say that they worked on the game on four different years, but the development time was not that.

 

[DekuBoy]

Is this a SmashBoards thing? Asking for links when you refuse to believe something held as common knowledge? I see it all the time here.

Considering the complaints you have are either deliberate design choices (slower) or vague and subjective (less fun, underwhelming), I really can't see how you've arrived at the conclusion that less time and manpower was spent polishing the core gameplay.

It's a sensible thing actually wanting proof of a statement. Give me a link saying that Brawl had more time spent on its engine than Melee/64, instead of dodging the question.

 

[Spydr Enzo]

I'm fine with adding more fun content, just make it worth it and not use it as a diversion from the gameplay. Stage Builder and Replay, while limiting for God knows what reason, are examples of fun content and are to be used in junction with the fighting. Coin Launcher does nothing of the sort, and neither do the Masterpieces or Chronicle.

I don't understand what is so wrong with these "diversions" from the gameplay. First of all, if you really feel that they don't belong, then why can't you just ignore them and continue with your precious fighting? Coin Launcher improved upon the Lottery of Melee, making it more interactive and fun. It's like a mini-game. Masterpieces and Chronicle add to the "virtual Nintendo encyclopedia" side of the game that I've been talking about. I enjoy playing/looking through them and discovering more about the characters of the game that I had no previous knowledge of.

Why would you be less concerned with the fighting when you bought a fighting game? Isn't that what you buy the game for?

I'm no less concerned with the fighting. It definitely needs improvement, but that doesn't mean we have to strip the game of all of it's other features and modes. And no as a matter of fact, that is not what I bought the game for.

I enjoy the fighting aspect. I like searching for a main and learning all of their moves and techniques and battling friends who share the same love of the game. But, before Brawl came out, it was pretty obvious that it was expanded upon, a lot. Before it came out, I learned to accept it as more than a fighting game. Besides the fighting, it is a game that allows you to enjoy all things Nintendo. Characters, locations, items, themes, music, I could go on. However, it has managed to remain primarily a fighting game, you can't deny that. But on the side, it has become a sort of Nintendo Museum or Virtual Nintendo Encyclopedia (Yes, I will keep repeating myself).

I do agree that part of the fun is obtaining the trophies and stickers. I don't think, though, that trying to get the SSE trophies was fun at all. Try getting Meta-Ridley's trophy when he's away from the ship most of the time.

I agree with this, that is something that needs improvement. Perhaps you should be allowed to store one trophy stands and you can pull it out whenever you desire.

Guess what? You can do the same by going online. Just going to a Nintendo wiki would be enough, but, of course, you have those that won't do that and would rather do what you said.

Exactly. Anyone can get on a wiki. I could sit a 10-year old down on the computer, click on any article in the Nintendo Wiki and tell him to go at it, typing whatever he likes. Before anyone brings up anything about it, I don't care about the security of wikis. That's beside the point anyway, because my main point is that while the information is often correct, it just doesn't seem as official. Smash is a game coming from Nintendo (a second-party company to Nintendo, but it's still pretty much Nintendo), not a 10-year old kid. It just seems more official, and is much more enjoyable when all of it is mashed into one single game, not spanned across the entire internet.

Wouldn't straying from its roots be a bad thing? Sonic did the same and look what happened to him.

Ah, but there is a difference. See, Sonic not only strayed from it's roots, but once it got away it completely (near completely) destroyed them. Did Smash do that? I don't think so.

The fighting is still there. The fighting itself has even been expanded upon greatly throughout the series, regardless of whether it still needs improvement or not. Now why would you call that straying from its roots? Its "roots" are expanding, and as they expand they collect new ideas and things to make expand into something even MORE than what it was originally, while at the same times, the original roots still remain.

Honestly, if you don't like these new expansions, all of this new content, everything that has transformed elements of the game into more of a Nintendo Museum or Virtual Nintendo Encyclopedia (oops, I did it again), then just ignore 'em. There are plenty of people, me included, who have learned long ago to accept that this is the direction that Smash is going.

By the way, isn't the game mentioned as part of the Action genre on it's own official website?

You sure do repeat yourself a lot.

Given the ignorance of so many people on the SmashBoards, one repeating oneself is to be expected.

I think with all this said and done, I think I'll get to what I'd rather see.

Obtaining trophies -

• While not perfect, Melee's trophy bonus stage is something I'd like to see returned and improved on.
• Make obtaining trophies mean something. That little achievement system in Brawl was a good example of this. You didn't gain them so easily so they really felt more like trophies than, say, figurines.
• Maybe use the credits minigame as something akin to places like Chuck E. Cheese. You get a certain score, you have the option to "purchase" certain trophies.

Obtaining stickers -

• I'm mostly fine with this. It wasn't something in the way or pointlessly difficult like obtaining boss trophies. You just simply obtained these, like the CDs, while you were playing.

-I would like to see a return to Melee's trophy bonus stage as well, and it does indeed some improvement.
-Agreed with the second point. You need to earn trophies, you don't just find them. Although it wouldn't be a bad thing if only a few trophies were obtained in that way.
-That's an interesting idea as well. But then hat is your problem with the coin launcher? You are basically "purchasing" trophies using the coins that you earned, but it has been made into a more interactive mini-game. You have to chase down the trophies before they disappear and avoid other obstacles as well.

 

[Big-Cat]

I don't understand what is so wrong with these "diversions" from the gameplay. First of all, if you really feel that they don't belong, then why can't you just ignore them and continue with your precious fighting? Coin Launcher improved upon the Lottery of Melee, making it more interactive and fun. It's like a mini-game. Masterpieces and Chronicle add to the "virtual Nintendo encyclopedia" side of the game that I've been talking about. I enjoy playing/looking through them and discovering more about the characters of the game that I had no previous knowledge of.

I think probably the best way to describe I want is "unity". I will admit that Coin Launcher has a connection with the gameplay, as the coins you earn in Classic Mode come into play there. It's just to me that it wasn't all that fun because it got stale quickly and there are times where you'll get like ten of the same trophy in one sitting. I wonder what it would've been like if the Coin Launcher was turned into something Touhou-esque.

Masterpieces and Chronicle feel more detached in comparison to the Coin Launcher. The former is something really basic that Nintendo should've had available for their VC games in the first place. As for the latter, it has more to do with the game than Masterpieces, but not by much.

I agree with this, that is something that needs improvement. Perhaps you should be allowed to store one trophy stands and you can pull it out whenever you desire.

I'd rather see it gone. The Pokemon feeling I got with the trophy stand made getting them frustrating.

By the way, isn't the game mentioned as part of the Action genre on it's own official website?

Yes, but EVERYONE, aside from a good amount of traditional fighting game players, considers it a fighting game. Even Sakurai.

-I would like to see a return to Melee's trophy bonus stage as well, and it does indeed some improvement.
-Agreed with the second point. You need to earn trophies, you don't just find them. Although it wouldn't be a bad thing if only a few trophies were obtained in that way.
-That's an interesting idea as well. But then hat is your problem with the coin launcher? You are basically "purchasing" trophies using the coins that you earned, but it has been made into a more interactive mini-game. You have to chase down the trophies before they disappear and avoid other obstacles as well.

-OK
-I don't think there'd be anything wrong with that really.
-My problem, as mentioned earlier, is that you can easily get the same trophy ten times in one sitting. Back to the Chuck E. Cheese analogy, when you're done for the day there, you have a lot of tickets won from playing the different games. This is what I have in mind for the credits minigame: When you clear it, you have the option to select which trophies you want based on your score. The "rarer" trophies will be those with a higher price and will require you to play it a few times to get them.

 

[UberMario]

May 2005-January 2008 is around 32 months, give or take, that's two years and eight months. Yes, you can say that they worked on the game on four different years, but the development time was not that.

Alright you win, I screwed up before, happy?

 

[Big-Cat]

Alright you win, I screwed up before, happy?

I will not be happy until Japan releases a color of boat that I am willing to choice.

 

[Nick Schovitz]

where's the thread to discuss what you want to see in a new Smash game?

 

[n88]

where's the thread to discuss what you want to see in a new Smash game?

GameFAQs.


(Just kidding, this is it)



@Kuma

Brawl+ Level 9 Luigi is legit. Plays/combos better than most people I know.

Also, to throw a random topic out there, what do people think of expanding the number of players to 6/8? I would love to have me a 4v4 match, although that may necessitate some more big stages.

 

[Big-Cat]

Toise is all for it.

I'm not interested in it. Besides, how exactly would it work? Could you only do it via LAN and online play?

On another note, I hate big stages like New Pork City.

 

[Kantrip]

We could have control slot splitters or use a mixture of wired/wireless remotes. It could technically work, if only to satisfy large parties of casual gamers?

I have hopes for more stages in the next smash. Lots more. In fact, my only criteria for the next game would have to be:
1. Keep Diddy in it
2. More stages, and not useless ones, but it would be nice to have a mix of "competitive" and "casual" stages.

Edit: As far as characters go, these are some additions I'd welcome:

-Bowser Jr., Toad, Geno
-Baby bros (with an awesome recovery where they go into a bubble and cry as they float up lolol), Kamek
-Toon Zelda/Tetra
-Zoroark (pokemon), Another trainer, mewtwo returns
-King K. Rool (Big one, I would be very happy to see him :D), maybe Dixie?
-Tails, Knuckles, Dr. Eggman
-Bomberman, Megaman
-Tom Nook, other animal crossing character
-Mii character (doesn't have to be customizeable, maybe a generic?)

Meh, all I got currently.

 

[UberMario]

Also, to throw a random topic out there, what do people think of expanding the number of players to 6/8? I would love to have me a 4v4 match, although that may necessitate some more big stages.

I see this being a LARGE possibility, the Gamecube was apparently originally going to have six ports (since A. the Multi-Man Melee has six characters at a time playing B. 6-way Melees are accesible for "normal" play via the Action Replay and C. Orange and Purple P5 and P6 cursors were found in Melee using an Action Replay.)

 

[BBQTV]

just do what xbox does. you need 2 wiis and 2 t.vs

 

[A Link to the Snitch]

Here is who I hope for in regard to newcomers...

Mario:

Fawful [Mario]
Bowser Jr. [Mario]
Toad [Mario]
Tingle [Zelda]
non-clone Ganondorf [Zelda]
non-clone Toon Link [Zelda]
Zoroark [Pokémon]
Eliwood [Fire Emblem]
Andy [Advance Wars]
Little Mac [Punch-Out!!]
Bald Bull [Punch-Out!!]
Diddy & Dixie [DK]
King K. Rool [DK]
Starfy
Chibi-Robo
Muddy Mole [Mole Mania]
Balloon Fighter
Ray MK III [Custom Robo]
Dark Samus [Metroid]
Medusa [Kid Icarus]
Matthew [Golden Sun]

 

[ElPanandero]

Here is who I hope for in regard to newcomers...

Mario:

Fawful [Mario]- If you want to dream go for it...

Bowser Jr. [Mario] Either him or Toad

Toad [Mario] See Bowser Junior

Tingle [Zelda] Debatable, but an ok choice since you didn't choose any other characters

non-clone Ganondorf [Zelda]- Ganon's fine as is, but I understand your gripe.

non-clone Toon Link [Zelda]- Yea i could see this. (Bring back Young link and give Toon his own se )

Zoroark [Pokémon] - Probably, we'll see how popular the other gen 5 are, including the starters (Fire Pig FTW)

Eliwood [Fire Emblem]- Huzzah, Eliwood is my favorite from FE7, he's very unlikely as we're probably the only two people who like him

Andy [Advance Wars]- Yes, good choice

Little Mac [Punch-Out!!] - Fine, if we must

Bald Bull [Punch-Out!!]- not sure if PO should get two characters yet...

Diddy & Dixie [DK]- Yes, fix Diddy's broken Down B and add in a deserving character

King K. Rool [DK]- Yes, good villain, awesome character

Starfy- Personally no...maybe though

Chibi-Robo- Haha, he'd be fun

Muddy Mole [Mole Mania]- Never heard of him....

Balloon Fighter- Yes, great retro character

Ray MK III [Custom Robo]- Is uppose.

Dark Samus [Metroid]- No, Metroid doesn't really need more characters.

Medusa [Kid Icarus]- Maybe Maybe (Personally I hate the idea)

Matthew [Golden Sun]- I'd prefer issac, but Matthew is probably more likely.

Comments in bold. Also, is new Golden sun for regular Ds or only Stupid Lame DS 3DS?

 

[MKOwnage]

I think that Masahiro Sakurai doesn't want to be involved in any more sequels to the Smash Brothers or Kirby since he wants to try something different. If the next Smash Brothers is expected for pitch-up, Nintendo can simply select someone else with enough game industry and Smash Bros experience.

Team Ninja or Rare I'm sure.

 

[BBQTV]

rare works for microsoft so i don't even........

 

[Pieman0920]

No, Metroid doesn't really need more characters.

Riiidddleeeeyyy.

Really though, even if you think Ridley is too big, or something dumb like that, you must notice how Metroid is such a large series with only one real character, so while I think there can be a debated issue about the viability of characters, the series should get an expansion.

 

[libertyernie]

I really think that Toon Link (if he is in) SHOULD be a clone. The changes he has from regular Link are more than enough to make him his own character.

 

[Spydr Enzo]

I think probably the best way to describe I want is "unity". I will admit that Coin Launcher has a connection with the gameplay, as the coins you earn in Classic Mode come into play there. It's just to me that it wasn't all that fun because it got stale quickly and there are times where you'll get like ten of the same trophy in one sitting. I wonder what it would've been like if the Coin Launcher was turned into something Touhou-esque.

I kind of expected the mode to get stale, so I took my time with it. Some people get 2000 coins and sit there for an hour on their first try of the coin launcher. After maybe 45 minutes, they begin to notice that the same trophies are appearing over and over again. New trophies are so infrequent that one is seen maybe every 5 minutes. Expecting this, I told myself I would only use 100 coins each time I played. That way, it stayed fun for me even longer. Plus, I enjoy the little rush of excitement I feel when I see a new trophy enter the game. The more rare they get, the more exciting and fun it is to see them appear.

I realize players shouldn't have to limit themselves as I did with games like this, so it could be improved, but it doesn't need to entirely be scrapped. And I would much rather stick with the coin launcher than go back to Melee's lottery. The lottery was basically turned into a game and was made more interactive, which I really do appreciate.

Masterpieces and Chronicle feel more detached in comparison to the Coin Launcher. The former is something really basic that Nintendo should've had available for their VC games in the first place. As for the latter, it has more to do with the game than Masterpieces, but not by much.

I still enjoy them. It allows me to discover the roots of all (or most) of the characters in the game. All of the information I need compiled into one game, like a Nintendo museum or encyclopedia (sorry for repeating).

I'd rather see it gone. The Pokemon feeling I got with the trophy stand made getting them frustrating.

It doesn't need to be gone completely, maybe just improved. It shouldn't be so frustrating and difficult for one thing.

Yes, but EVERYONE, aside from a good amount of traditional fighting game players, considers it a fighting game. Even Sakurai.

It is a fighting game, all I'm saying is that it seems like it's becoming more than just a fighting game. Which like I mentioned earlier could be a bad thing, if it strayed like Sonic did, but it isn't, so the non-fighting content should still be appreciated.

My problem, as mentioned earlier, is that you can easily get the same trophy ten times in one sitting. Back to the Chuck E. Cheese analogy, when you're done for the day there, you have a lot of tickets won from playing the different games. This is what I have in mind for the credits minigame: When you clear it, you have the option to select which trophies you want based on your score. The "rarer" trophies will be those with a higher price and will require you to play it a few times to get them.

That wouldn't be a bad idea. But, the lottery (coin launcher) feature should stay as well. Maybe the trophies obtained from credit shooting points are a predetermined list of about 40-50 trophies, instead of a shop with nearly every random trophy in the game.

Riiidddleeeeyyy.

Really though, even if you think Ridley is too big, or something dumb like that, you must notice how Metroid is such a large series with only one real character, so while I think there can be a debated issue about the viability of characters, the series should get an expansion.

It really doesn't seem like Sakurai cares so much about which characters or which series are deserving or not. Sure, in more extreme cases like Metroid, he might start noticing that a new character is due, as he did with ZSS in Brawl. Even though she is part of a "two-for-one" character, it's an expansion to the Metroid series, something it has needed since Melee, which I believe Sakurai actually noticed. Besides that though, it just doesn't seem like he cares about "deserving" characters or series.

If he did, would MOTHER have more slots than Metroid? Would MOTHER have as much slots as Donkey Kong? Would Star Fox have more characters than Metroid and several other series? Wouldn't Mario have a new character, seeing as how he has remained familiar and important over the years and his new games have been widely popular?

 

[Nick Schovitz]

I'm thinking most likely that three of the new characters will include


Waluigi (Come one it's a given)
Daisy-Given
King K. Rool (Maybe, DKCR seems like they forgot about him)


Returning
Mewtwo

 

[JBRPG]

I really think that Toon Link (if he is in) SHOULD be a clone. The changes he has from regular Link are more than enough to make him his own character.

Toon Link is more of an original sub character. He has most movesets based off Link, but the changes applied to him are vastly different than Link.

 

[Pieman0920]

It really doesn't seem like Sakurai cares so much about which characters or which series are deserving or not. Sure, in more extreme cases like Metroid, he might start noticing that a new character is due, as he did with ZSS in Brawl. Even though she is part of a "two-for-one" character, it's an expansion to the Metroid series, something it has needed since Melee, which I believe Sakurai actually noticed. Besides that though, it just doesn't seem like he cares about "deserving" characters or series.

If he did, would MOTHER have more slots than Metroid? Would MOTHER have as much slots as Donkey Kong? Would Star Fox have more characters than Metroid and several other series? Wouldn't Mario have a new character, seeing as how he has remained familiar and important over the years and his new games have been widely popular?

Well actually, Metroid didn't need an expansion back in Melee. Remember Metroid Prime/Fusion hadn't come out yet, and for the most part it was a dead-ish series like F-Zero is now. It was only later that the series got another kick start, but its still going strong so it should get more attention.

But as far as your questions there, its really because there are character limits. Mario only gets four slots because that's all there is. Sakurai mentioned that he doesn't want to have a roster that was dominated by popular characters, so the popular series have caps on them. The fact that Zelda and Pokemon got more is simply due to the fact that there were characters that lent themselves to being two or three in ones, as well as the fact that the Mario uses characters from other series (DK) and has spin offs that turn into new series (Yoshi/Wario) so its bound to be like that. As far as series deserving things though, I don't think that at the time, the DK series deserved much of anything, especially after what it showed in between Melee and Brawl. Despite this, it still had its second character, so I don't see all that great of an issue. The one thing I can't say anything on though is the Star Fox series, which is just bizarre. Sakurai didn't seem to know much of anything about the series post-N64, the series wasn't that popular, and the characters weren't all that original after Fox. There really doesn't seem to be a reason for them outside of them being easy to implement clones, which may very well be the true explanation.

 

[A Link to the Snitch]

[/B]

Comments in bold. Also, is new Golden sun for regular Ds or only Stupid Lame DS 3DS?

Fawful [Mario]- If you want to dream go for it... - It's not that unlikely; Fawful has been a major character in two games, and a cameo in one. Heck, Nintendo Power named him the sixth best Nintendo villain ever.

Bald Bull [Punch-Out!!]- not sure if PO should get two characters yet... - Well, Punch-Out!! was a fairly popular game on the Wii, and has a pretty rich history; Bald Bull has also appeared in nearly every Punch-Out!! game, save for Super Punch-Out!! on the arcades. Heck, he was the only character from Punch-Out!! to appear in the spin-off, Arm Wrestling. On top of this, I'm anticipating that they will release another Punch-Out!! before another Smash.

Starfy- Personally no...maybe though - Well, his series is fairly popular; I'm certain that his latest excursion sold more than 1 million copies worldwide, the bulk of which came from North America, Europe, and Australia. He's had five games released in the span of two consoles.

Muddy Mole [Mole Mania]- Never heard of him.... - He's the star of Mole Mania, a very good adventure game for the Game Boy developed by Miyamoto.

Dark Samus [Metroid]- No, Metroid doesn't really need more characters. - With the upcoming Metroid: Other M, and the certain push that they will be making for it, I don't see Metroid not warranting a second persona character.

Medusa [Kid Icarus]- Maybe Maybe (Personally I hate the idea) - I just think that with the upcoming Kid Icarus, giving Pit some extra coverage in the next Smash Bros. Besides, it adds a new female AND a new villain!

I actually forgot a couple - Captain Syrup and Saki Amamiya.

EDIT: Oh, and Samurai Goroh. Duh.

 

[Spydr Enzo]

Well actually, Metroid didn't need an expansion back in Melee. Remember Metroid Prime/Fusion hadn't come out yet, and for the most part it was a dead-ish series like F-Zero is now. It was only later that the series got another kick start, but its still going strong so it should get more attention.

But as far as your questions there, its really because there are character limits. Mario only gets four slots because that's all there is. Sakurai mentioned that he doesn't want to have a roster that was dominated by popular characters, so the popular series have caps on them. The fact that Zelda and Pokemon got more is simply due to the fact that there were characters that lent themselves to being two or three in ones, as well as the fact that the Mario uses characters from other series (DK) and has spin offs that turn into new series (Yoshi/Wario) so its bound to be like that. As far as series deserving things though, I don't think that at the time, the DK series deserved much of anything, especially after what it showed in between Melee and Brawl. Despite this, it still had its second character, so I don't see all that great of an issue. The one thing I can't say anything on though is the Star Fox series, which is just bizarre. Sakurai didn't seem to know much of anything about the series post-N64, the series wasn't that popular, and the characters weren't all that original after Fox. There really doesn't seem to be a reason for them outside of them being easy to implement clones, which may very well be the true explanation.

You make good points there. But still, it is obvious that how deserving a character or series is doesn't really matter as much to Sakurai as other things might. It does play a part, especially in extreme cases like the one I have mentioned, but it isn't all-important.

First of all, Donkey Kong really was not deserving of a character in Brawl. Whether it got it's secondary character or not, it wasn't deserving of it. That is still an example. Secondly, how do you explain the MOTHER/EarthBound series? To out of the three games released in the series weren't released outside of Japan, the series did not sell well as a whole compared to other series in Smash, and after MOTHER 3 it was a dead series anyway. And yet it has two characters. I know MOTHER 3 was released in 2006, around the time of Brawl's release, so it makes sense. But is it really "deserving" of another character?

I don't have a source, but I remember it being mentioned that Sakurai was a big fan of the MOTHER series, and that possibly influenced his decision to include Ness and ultimately Lucas as well. But that just proves my point even further. However deserving a character or series is, is not a quality that is at the top of Sakurai's list. Of course it does play a part, but not as much as multiple other qualities.

 

[ElPanandero]

Riiidddleeeeyyy.

Really though, even if you think Ridley is too big, or something dumb like that, you must notice how Metroid is such a large series with only one real character, so while I think there can be a debated issue about the viability of characters, the series should get an expansion.

Well, i didn`t mention ridley mostly because I wanted to avoid a huge arguement. And for the record, i consider zero suit a separate character.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Part of the reason "deservingness" is meaningless is because it's subjective. That's how we end up with ******** statements like:

Donkey Kong really was not deserving of a character in Brawl.

And that's just silly.

It's a sensible thing actually wanting proof of a statement. Give me a link saying that Brawl had more time spent on its engine than Melee/64, instead of dodging the question.

There's no outright statement, but it's impossible to think otherwise unless you're either in the dark or in denial.

Brawl was in development from 2005 to the end of 2007. Melee was 2000 to the end of 2001. 64 was 1998 to the beginning of 1999.

Brawl's programming team is about three times larger than Melee's. I say "programming" because that's what those individuals were credited for. There are far more people credited to more specific things like stages, SSE content, character design/animation, and even the masterpieces section, so that probably leaves... yeah guess what, the engine.

Sakurai's interviews have also devoted a lot of time to detailing the specifics of the gameplay and how much effort he himself put into every single character. I distinctly remember people being completely surprised to hear that he personally went over every parameter for every character and their attacks himself.


I'm not gonna post links because right now I don't have the patience to google stuff you can find on your own. Look up the SamuraiPanda translations here on SmashBoards, the GDC 08 presentation, Iwata Asks for Brawl, and the credits between each game.

 

[Spydr Enzo]

Part of the reason "deservingness" is meaningless is because it's subjective. That's how we end up with ******** statements like:



And that's just silly.

Yeah Toise, it's supposed to be silly/********. I was trying to prove a point. Although I'm not sure if you thought I meant the character Donkey Kong. I didn't. I was talking about the series itself.

We stand on the same grounds. I feel that "deservingness" is rather meaningless and I was trying to explain with that statement.

I'm thinking most likely that three of the new characters will include


Waluigi (Come one it's a given)
Daisy-Given
King K. Rool (Maybe, DKCR seems like they forgot about him)

Waluigi and Daisy... givens? Don't count on it. What relevance to they have to the Mario series other than being easy spin-off additions and unimportant filler characters?

Daisy had a bit of relevance once, but no more. Also, she is just too similar to Peach to make a worthy addition. Make her an alternate costume instead. Waluigi has never had ANY relevance other than being a throw-in filler character. Sure, he would be a bit more unique, but there are plenty of Mario characters that have much better chances, like Bowser Jr. or Toad.

King K. Rool is a possibility, but also don't forget about Dixie. She has her chances as well, I'd say they are pretty much equal to King K. Rool's.

 

[omnibus2]

1. Port ssb4 to the xbox 360.
On a more serious note...it would actually be really nice to see smash bros with such phenomenal graphics. (Don't start a debate. I know gameplay>graphics, but better graphics makes the game a lot more fun to play)

2. Make it Melee style...you know, competitive with l-canceling etc, yet still able to appeal to newbies. Melee did this very well.

3. Balance! Nintendo did such a bad job with brawl in terms of balance (among other things)-did they not notice Melee's competitive scene? I think an effort to eliminate at least bottom/very low tiers would be real nice. I know Nintendo can't predict competitive styles, but come on.
They could have forseen ganondorf in brawl.

4. Dark Samus. Seriously.

5. Online. From what I hear it is terrible, and free? Just make it p2p and better.
EDIT: Oh yes-UPDATES! With legitimate input from the community, slight character tweaking would help balancing characters infinitely.

6. Public Beta. I think that could go well.

If they make ssb4 and it's really good...I might actually buy...a wii! Haha.

That is all.

 

[Spydr Enzo]

Fawful [Mario]- If you want to dream go for it... - It's not that unlikely; Fawful has been a major character in two games, and a cameo in one. Heck, Nintendo Power named him the sixth best Nintendo villain ever.

Actually, it is pretty unlikely. Two games? A cameo? That isn't very impressive, honestly. There are plenty more Mario characters that have a better chance of appearing before he does, topping that list, Toad and Bowser Jr.

Bald Bull [Punch-Out!!]- not sure if PO should get two characters yet... - Well, Punch-Out!! was a fairly popular game on the Wii, and has a pretty rich history; Bald Bull has also appeared in nearly every Punch-Out!! game, save for Super Punch-Out!! on the arcades. Heck, he was the only character from Punch-Out!! to appear in the spin-off, Arm Wrestling. On top of this, I'm anticipating that they will release another Punch-Out!! before another Smash.

Panandero is right, Punch-Out!! definitely does not need two characters, especially when it hasn't even gotten one yet. Little Mac is somewhat likely, but really, two Punch-Out!! characters is a little unnecessary.

Starfy- Personally no...maybe though - Well, his series is fairly popular; I'm certain that his latest excursion sold more than 1 million copies worldwide, the bulk of which came from North America, Europe, and Australia. He's had five games released in the span of two consoles.

I wouldn't want to see him in... but I can't deny that he has his chances, as small as they seem compared to other possible characters.

Muddy Mole [Mole Mania]- Never heard of him.... - He's the star of Mole Mania, a very good adventure game for the Game Boy developed by Miyamoto.

I really doubt we'll be seeing muddy mole as a playable character. Maybe some sort of assist trophy, but definitely not playable.

Dark Samus [Metroid]- No, Metroid doesn't really need more characters. - With the upcoming Metroid: Other M, and the certain push that they will be making for it, I don't see Metroid not warranting a second persona character.

I really don't like discussing Metroid... it's the most controversial series when it comes to this type of stuff. Sure it could use another character, but it is low on actually viable candidates, most of which have some drawbacks.

Medusa [Kid Icarus]- Maybe Maybe (Personally I hate the idea) - I just think that with the upcoming Kid Icarus, giving Pit some extra coverage in the next Smash Bros. Besides, it adds a new female AND a new villain!

I guess that isn't so unlikely, considering Sakurai's work on the new Kid Icarus title. He'll probably want to show it off somehow.

I actually forgot a couple - Captain Syrup and Saki Amamiya.

I don't know about Captain Syrup... The Wario in brawl seems more centered around WarioWare rather than Wario Land, and there are several other characters that would probably make an appearance before her. Saki is possible, but I'm sure there are a few other new series that we have to consider before his series.

EDIT: Oh, and Samurai Goroh. Duh.

If we do get another F-Zero character, it'll be him, no doubt in my mind.

Comments in Red.

 

[omnibus2]

I really don't like discussing Metroid... it's the most controversial series when it comes to this type of stuff. Sure it could use another character, but it is low on actually viable candidates, most of which have some drawbacks.

Do you mind explaining? I think adding another character or even two from the metroid series would work great if implemented correctly.

 

[Pieman0920]

Metroid's main problem is that Samus kills every side character she meets. Because of this, the only other character who has made enough appearances and has enough fans to justify a playable character spot is Ridley. The problem with Ridley, in some people's opinions, is that he's too big. Thus we have a few problems with talking about Metroid.

Also, while I haven't had a chance to play it yet (curse you MHTri) I would assume that with the new S&P game that Isa would be a more likely pick than Saki.

Anyways, @Spydr: Yes the EB series is fairly obscure and unknown, especially in the states, but it did make progress in between Melee and Brawl and had a viable character to show for it. What does or doesn't allow a second character is somewhat unclear, but for the other pre-established series that didn't get a second character (Two-in-one or regular) they either had no good viable characters to go with (Yoshi, G&W, IC) or didn't really have characters who have been used in combat before (F-Zero). As far as Mother being a dead series though, Mother 3 came out between Melee and Brawl, so the issue would only really be in play when it comes to SSB4.

As far as Sakurai being a fan of the series, I'm not quite sure. It is certain though that he was anticipating Earthbound 64, and probably wanted to add in Lucas from the start, but couldn't.

@Omnibus: If you want anything you say to be taken seriously here, don't even suggest that the game be ported over to a non-Nintendo console. That's just silly.