Be honest. Are you advocating Tingle because you think Zelda has to have another character, or because the character himself is worth adding to the playable roster?
Look, Tingle is not popular. If you disagree with that, you're in denial. If you really think people reading Nintendo Power are the only ones who don't like him, you're being naive. Even the team behind his games realize this:
"He is not a cool guy at all, and he is not a character whom everybody likes. However, at least I can say he is a person who cannot be ignored. I believed there was a chance his public image could be changed from unfavourable to favourable depending on what kind of game we made, so I took a risk and chose him, despite knowing he was not liked by the people - especially in the U.S." - Kensuke Tanabehttp://ms.nintendo-europe.com/tingle/enGB/
Ouch. I wonder how many other developers have admitted that their star character isn't liked on their own website?
I posted the sales to give an impression on his situation in Japan. Compared to Zelda games, he's doing poorly (though the first game was still technically a success). His second game had the momentum from the first and even better reviews, yet it's doing noticably worse than the first so far. Kinda goes against the whole "but the Japanese are in love with him!" thought.
You have this impression that I feel adding Tingle is nothing short of catastrophic. How are you getting that?
The only thing I've been saying is that he's not popular/likable, and as a result, his inclusion would be a flaw to the game. A flaw. A negative point. The kind of thing you avoid because too many of them ruin the big picture.
All I'm getting from you is:
** The "he won't hurt sales" line (which is technically false since ANY flaw translates to lesser sales if it's noticable; sales will only be significantly lowered if the sum of all the flaws is too great to ignore, and the game will absolutely have flaws anyway, so why add another intentionally?)
** Bad analogies (guess what, you can't avoid him if you play single-player modes, online, or use the random button)
** Comparisons to characters who AREN'T hated (unknown =/= unpopular; being unknown isn't a problem if the character is still likable)
The only reason to add Tingle is to gamble on his appearance reversing his unpopularity. The odds are against him on that since rarely does anyone fix a crappy reputation in one shot. He needs to do it on his own, in his own games, at his own pace. It'll take a while and he might never be fully accepted, but it's the only hope he has.
Thrust Tingle into the game now though, and it won't go well for him. Count on it.
I'm not advocating him; I hate his guts and I've said this several times. Aside from Daisy, he's my most hated video game character of all time. With that being said, there's an enormous side of this arguement that you're ignoring because you don't want to see Tingle and that's the big difference between you and me in this arguement. You're giving into your own bias, I'm not. I'd rather see Vaati 1000X times more than Tingle but, as I already said, he's only been in two games with the last one being 2005, he's virtually unknown outside of Zelda fans and even then he's not that popular. This could basically describe everyone else who's a "contender" for a Zelda spot: one or two games, they haven't been in a game in several years, and outside of Zelda fans they're not that popular.
Also keep in mind that I've been saying "IF" Zelda gets any new characters. Right now, you have all the major characters: Link, Zelda, Ganondorf, and Toon Link. You have the two main playable characters, the main heroine, and the main villian. As I mentioned in another post, most of the major franchises have their major players on the table: Mario, Zelda, Kirby, and Pokemon; other franchises really don't need anybody else but they still have at least one more reasonable choice if need be: Donkey Kong, Star Fox, Wario, F-Zero, Mother, and Metroid; and other franchises really don't need anybody else: Pikmin, Yoshi, Ice Climber, Kid Icarus, Game and Watch, and ROB. In my opinion, the only already represented franchise in Smash that "needs" another rep at this time is Fire Emblem based on its size and history while other franchises (like Metroid) would just be icing on the cake. At this time, a Zelda addition is questionable but I can still say that Tingle's first in line with everyone else miles if not solely for the reason he has his own franchise. In short, unless somebody big and reoccuring comes along between now and 2012/2013 in the Zelda franchise, it's pretty much going to be Tingle or no one at all for new Zelda characters.
Also, don't demonize me for saying that Tingle has a chance. I'm more than aware that he's very unpopular. There's really no getting around that. As for the Nintendo Power comment, I was saying that he was kept out of the US because of them. People dislike him and that much is obvious but it's borderline insane to believe that people made accounts in large droves just to keep Tingle out of North America. With that being said, the decision WAS pretty much made by Nintendo Power subscribers with Nintendo.com accounts. It's like what I said earlier, people don't like him but, truth be told, most people don't care on the level that they'd go online to make sure any of his games never see the light of day in North Ameria. The poll didn't have that many people from what I remember. I voted against it but, at the time voting, I think there had only been about 400 people who voted. In comparison, as of September 2008, Brawl sold about 7.47 million copies. It's like with the Brawl poll, it's only estimated that 3-4 thousand people participated with at least 90% of those people being Japanese. Again, you're presented with a small percentage of people who are concerned with the game on a personal level.
As for your points:
1. As the Sonic and Final Fantasy franchises have shown us, games with big flaws in them still do great. If anything, this really doesn't apply to big franchises and, despite going against the
ideal, developers of big games keep both little and big flaws in games all the time. Despite being called the offical death of the Sonic franchise, for example, Sonic and the Black Knight still sold 350,000 copies and despite the huge complaints against Sonic Unleashed (including the long standing complaints in the franchise like gimmicks, annoying side characters, and crappy camera), it still sold over a million copies. Also, despite being called a mediocre and complicated experience altogether, Final Fantasy Dissidia has managed to sell over two million copies worldwide.
As I already showed earlier, Brawl has a lot of flaws in it but still sold stuppendously well. You argued that many of the flaws were unintentional but I personally raise an eyebrow considering how at GDC 08 Sakurai said that he personally created all the characters and decided their properties himself. The ludicrous disjointed hitboxes on Snake's ftilt/utilt? Sakurai. King Dedede's dthrow chain grab? Sakurai. Most of Metaknight's attacks being disjoined, having close to no ending/landing lag, and among the highest priority in the game? Sakurai. The brokeness of the Land Masters and Super Sonic? Sakurai. These are just a few example of flaws in Brawl that the director himself was aware of but they were still let in. In the video game industry as a whole, this happens all the time and, for big franchises, people usually don't care. Heck, Sakurai pretty much said himself that online for Smash Bros was going to suck but it's still the most played online game for the Wii after Mario Kart Wii (another game with a lot of flaws, I might add with the biggest, the brokeness of blue shells, being completely blatent.) In the end, big flaws don't always equal to less sales.
"guess what, you can't avoid him if you play single-player modes, online, or use the random button"
OH DEAR GOD, people might actually have to see him!!!!! ... I'm stunned that you'd suggest that people would get pissed off simply by seeing him and go as far asrefusing to play the game. For single player you don't have to play as him and the game gives you options for unlocking other characters. Heck, I know a lot of people who don't even bother playing the single player mode and unlock most the major things through VS mode. For online, again, YOU don't have to play as him and it's pettiness in its most extreme form if you are angered by OTHER PEOPLE playing him. For the random button, you can always quit the match if you hate playing (or merely seeing apparently) him. As someone who absolutely can't stand Tingle, I'm having a hard time seeing things from your perspective. I used to hate Ike because everybody and their grandma used to play him online but that didn't stop me from playing online. I hated ROB for the longest time but it really didn't bother me that much when other people played him. Basically, you're highlighting the most disgruntled of disgruntled gamers and suggesting that they would somehow become the majority.
Regarding the lesser known and likeable characters, not everyone in Brawl is absolutely loved and people have taken their own courses to avoid them like I pointed out earlier. I don't think it'd be too much a stretch to say that more people dislike ROB than like him, for example. The Ice Climbers are in a similar boat too. People hated Wario simply because he farts. Pit has terrible voice acting. Sonic's his usual annoying self. Basically, people have found reasonable ways around this or have, lo and behold, put up with it because, in the grand scheme of the game, the annoying characters don't really detract from the experience or take away the game's appeal as a whole.
Some people argue that characters are added to promote their own games but the only character who had "advertising power" was Roy in Melee. Most people really don't care about the character's history and it's usually only a brave few who step out of their comfort zones to try new franchises based on those they "meet" in Smash Bros. If he becomes more popular, Nintendo gains but, if he doesn't, no skin off their nose because it doesn't cost them anything to add him in anyways and he'll probably continue having his own franchise and making cameos in the Zelda games.
All and all, I still see this as something that has been blown up to unholy levels despite the fact I'd love to see nothing more than Tingle fall out of the spotlight and into obscurity in the Zelda franchise. He's pretty much Zelda's only reasonable new addition at this if you want to go with the whole priority theory and, as I said, out of all the major franchises, Zelda's probably the most questionable when it comes to new additions simply because, as I said, there's pretty much no one left who really has a strong standing in the franchise. They're basically tapped for people who NEED representation much like the Kirby franchise but, unlike Kirby, there's only like 2-3 other people left that would even make sense/be practical. So, in the end, it's far from a guarentee because it's unlikely as it is that Zelda will even get another rep in the first place but, as far as Zelda characters go, Tingle's basically the only one left that makes sense aside from fan demand like Skull Kid or Vaati.
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