[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[Snakeyes]

Gameplay:

1. L-Canceling as we knew it back in the 64/Melee days should stay out as it is just an extra button press and unnecessary skill barrier for everyone. However, there are two ways to bring the same effect back:

- The easy method is to drastically reduce lag on ALL aerials. Also known as "auto L-canceling".

- A harder approach would be to balance every aerial in the game one-by-one so only specific moves are meant to be used in combos.


2. Escape/Burst/C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER! :
I believe this could help newbies and casuals a bit while adding a new type of mindgame into the mix. While in hit-stun, a player can input a command that puts their character into a state similar to Marth's counter for a certain number of frames. If any attack other than a projectile connects during that time, the stunned character recovers, bounces off the attacker (the effect on the latter is like getting hit by an extremely weak attack with minimal knockback) and lands at a safe distance. This is limited to one use per stock and gives you some sort of penalty for that stock (taking 2x damage and/or knockback, reduced damage output ???). The move has some recovery frames so an attacker can anticipate it and punish accordingly.


3. Airdodging should either be:
- Limited to one use before you grab the ledge/land/get hit OR
- One use per jump. In this case, characters with more jumps would have a shorter AD with a few vulnerable recovery frames to even it out.

In both cases, an AD does not put you in a free-fall state and its trajectory is based on your momentum (this is to keep wavedashing out, but wavelanding in).


4. Make the whole cast have more of a "weight" to them (physics that resemble Melee's a bit). A less homogenized falling speed for everyone would be nice too.

5. Increase hit-stun.

6. Bring back run-jump momentum gains.

7. Reduced edge-grab range

8. Bring back dash-dancing

9. Knockback deterioration on attacks out, damage deterioration stays in.

10. I haven't played a Smash game for more than a year now, so I forgot if this feature was already in Brawl and/or the past installments. Basically, I'd like to have a bit more control over falling speeds. This would also allow a player to control the direction of an airdodge.

-Hold the stick in a neutral/left/right position: regular falling speed, neutral/left/right angled AD

- Smash the stick down/down-left/down-right: fastest falling speed (fast-fall), downward/down-left/down-right angled AD (distance seems longer because of a higher momentum).

- Smash the stick up/up-left/up-right after having used all of your jumps: slower falling speed, upward/up-left/up-right angled AD

You're able to switch between all of those at any time, but the only way to regain control of your falling speed after a fast-fall is to enter the slower speed state. This is done so the commands do not overlap with the fast-falling of aerials and specials, which remains in the game.


Options/Online:

1. Input buffering can be tweaked by the player to better suit his needs, skill or play style.

2. Casual/Pro filter during online play. Wanna play for "fun"? Log on as "casual" and those mean tourney players won't bother you. This could even disable a few advanced play mechanics.

3. Lobby system. An open game's rule set can be seen by other players before they decide to join.

4. Some kind of rep system that helps identify hackers, ragequitters and trolls.

5. It would be nice to have a fully customizable color palette for each character.


Roster additions

Here's my wish list in no particular order. Some are probable, others are very unlikely:

Andy or Sami (Advance Wars)
Isaac or another main Golden Sun character
Bowser Jr./Shadow Mario
Ridley (Metroid)
Jeff (Earthbound)
Ray-01 (Custom Robo)
Knuckles (Sonic the Hedgehog)
Saki Amamiya (Sin & Punishment)
Simon Belmont (Castlevania)
Bill Rizer (Contra guy)
Shantae
Megaman (Classic)
Viewtiful Joe
Travis Touchdown (No More Heroes)
Geno (Super Mario RPG)
Crono or Magus (Chrono Trigger)
Neku Sakuraba (The World Ends With You) or Sora (Kingdom Hearts)
An old-school FF character like Cecil, Terra or the Black Mage


It took me about half an hour to type this so please comment

 

[Big-Cat]

@Kuma

About gameplay, What are your opions of wavedashing and L-canceling/ exploits Advanced Techs returning.

I was thinking of this earlier and with your current frustration, try to alleviate it (at least until someone yells ridley and we lose it)

To be honest, I have never been in the competitive scene because, despite my desires, I didn't know anywhere to go for competitions like I was able to for Yugioh and soon Street Fighter. Thankfully, I just found one place for Smash.

Anyway, I'm not too big on either of them. I don't think L-Canceling is all that necessary. Ukemi/ teching seems like enough to me for lag reduction outside of what I'll mention soon. To me, L-Canceling and Wavedashing are unnecessary, but my opinion can't truly be valid due to that I was never able to perform wavedashing except with Luigi.

Overall, I don't think "advanced techniques" shouldn't be things where glitches and physics are exploited. Rather, they should be exploitation of the techniques intended in the game.

I'd see rather canceling in the form of chaining a normal move(aka removing after lag) into a special move. I'd rather see people practice essential combos for their character then something like wavedashing.
Thank you Shino for asking and being considerate.

Thank you Snakeyes for your inputs as well. I'll comment when I get back from Church.

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

@Snakey regarding gameply.

I agree completely on the online ideas.

1. L-canceling- I feel it should return as it isn't terribly hard to do and gives heavier characters a nessecary playabity buff, as they commonly have a lot of landing lag. Auto-canceling is hardly ever useful (The frame-landing is much harder to time)

2. not really sure I quite understand this one

3. airdodging should return to meele's, free fall included. I find in Brawl avoiding ariels is much easier and basically unpunishable (If you do, you may dodge, if you don't you get hit)

4. Individual weight would be wonderful

5. Agreed

6. Agreed

7. I think this should depend on the character (allowing more ranged recovery options)

8. Huzzah, the dash dance

9. Agreed

10. not understaning

and @Kuma

your Welcome haha

I too have never actually competed, though I use wavedashing and L-canceling (see opionons above) against my friends (and 5-stock them, there not so good) and computers.

I have however watched Matches between people who can wavedash extremely well, and I when watching them, I see the competetive value of what it can be. I feel that if you don't want to use it, don't. Let those who can, do it and don't bother with them.

And for the arguement that It will schism the community when online is introduced, I feel some kind of Separation in a leaderboard should be inplemented (Allowing people who rank higher to only face others who rank higher, low vs. low etc.)

Though, regarding the chain combo idea...wouldn;t this give advantes to characters with naturally better specials (Metaknight's combos would be rediculous, while Mario's would be less than spectacular)...unless I am misinterpretting your ideas.

 

[Arcadenik]

MARIO - MELEE POLL
#1 - Bowser (169) - Melee/Brawl fighter
#2 - Peach (66) - Melee/Brawl fighter
#3 - Wario (65) - Brawl fighter
#4 - Toad (27) - Peach's B, Melee/Brawl trophy, potentially next-in-line for SSB4 roster spot after Bowser, Peach, and Wario
#5 - Koopa Troopa (9) - Melee/Brawl trophy and enemy
#6 - Kamek (8) - Brawl trophy as Magikoopa
#7 - Goomba (7) - Melee/Brawl trophy and enemy
#8 - Mallow (5) - n/a
#8 - Geno (5) - n/a
#10 - Baby Mario (3) - Melee/Brawl trophy

MARIO - BRAWL POLL
#1 - Geno (4) - n/a
#2 - Koopa Troopa (1) - Melee/Brawl trophy and enemy
#2 - Hammer Bros. (1) - Brawl enemy and Assist Trophy
#2 - Toad (1) - Peach's B, Melee/Brawl trophy, potentially next-in-line for SSB4 roster spot after Bowser, Peach, and Wario since New Super Mario Bros. Wii features two Toads as protagonists alongside Mario and Luigi
#2 - Petey Piranha (1) - Brawl boss
#2 - Mallow (1) - n/a
#2 - Vivian (1) - Brawl sticker

POKEMON - MELEE POLL
#1 - Mewtwo (35) - Melee fighter, Brawl trophy, could potentially be added back to the SSB4 roster since he is a legendary in Pokemon HeartGold/SoulSilver
#2 - Mew (24) - Melee/Brawl Pokeball
#3 - Red (18) - Brawl fighter as Pokemon Trainer
#4 - Misc. Pokemon (12) - n/a
#5 - Lugia (11) - Melee/Brawl Pokeball
#6 - Meowth (8) - Melee/Brawl trophy, Brawl Pokeball, potentially next-in-line for SSB4 roster spot after Mewtwo and Red as long as Meowth remains relevant to the media (anime, toys, etc.) and reprises his role as a starter in Pokemon Mystery Dungeon games
#7 - Raichu (7) - n/a
#8 - Marill (5) - Melee Pokeball
#8 - Bulbasaur (5) - Melee/Brawl trophy
#8 - Togepi (5) - Melee/Brawl Pokeball

POKEMON - BRAWL POLL
#1 - Gardevoir (1) - Brawl Pokeball
#1 - Steven Stone (1) - n/a

ZELDA - MELEE POLL
#1 - Ganondorf (36) - Melee/Brawl fighter
#2 - Young Link (8) - Melee fighter
#2 - Zelda (8) - Melee/Brawl fighter
#2 - Sheik (8) - Melee/Brawl fighter
#5 - Shadow Link (2) - Melee/Brawl Event Mode, Link's palette swap in Brawl

ZELDA - BRAWL POLL
#1 - Wind Waker Link (3) - Brawl fighter as Toon Link
#2 - Tetra (1) - Brawl trophy
#2 - Link's Uncle (1) - n/a
#2 - Ganon/Ganondorf (1) - Melee/Brawl fighter, Ganon as Ganondorf's Final Smash in Brawl
#2 - Bow Wow the Chain Chomp (1) - Brawl trophy as Chain Chomp

KIRBY - MELEE POLL
#1 - King Dedede (46) - Melee trophy, Brawl fighter
#2 - Gooey (17) - Melee trophy
#3 - Meta Knight (11) - Melee trophy, Brawl fighter
#4 - Misc. Kirby Companion (10) - Melee trophy (Rick), Brawl Assist Trophy (Knuckle Joe)
#5 - Waddle Dee (3) - Melee/Brawl trophy, King Dedede's Side B

KIRBY - BRAWL POLL
#1 - King Dedede (5) - Melee/Brawl fighter
#2 - Lololo & Lalala (1) - n/a
#2 - Marx (1) - n/a

MOTHER - MELEE POLL
#1 - Mr. Saturn (18) - Melee/Brawl item
#2 - Poo (6) - Melee trophy, Brawl sticker
#3 - Other Good Guys from Mother 2 (4) - n/a
#3 - Paula (4) - Melee trophy, Brawl sticker
#5 - Starman (3) - Melee trophy
#5 - Jeff (3) - Melee trophy, Brawl Asisst Trophy

MOTHER - BRAWL POLL
#1 - Jeff (2) - Melee trophy, Brawl Assist Trophy
#1 - Claus (2) - Lucas's palette swap in Brawl
#1 - Lucas (2) - Brawl fighter
#4 - Ninten (1) - Brawl sticker
#4 - Paula (1) - Melee trophy, Brawl sticker
#4 - Poo (1) - Melee trophy, Brawl sticker
#4 - Princess Kumatora (1) - Brawl sticker

STAR FOX - MELEE POLL
#1 - Falco (7) - Melee/Brawl fighter
#2 - Slippy (5) - Melee/Brawl trophy
#3 - Wolf (4) - Brawl fighter
#4 - Peppy (2) - Melee/Brawl trophy

STAR FOX - BRAWL POLL
#1 - Krystal (3) - Brawl trophy, potentially next-in-line for SSB4 roster spot after Falco and Wolf
#2 - Peppy (1) - Melee/Brawl trophy
#2 - Slippy (1) - Melee/Brawl trophy
#2 - Wolf (1) - Brawl fighter

FIRE EMBLEM - MELEE POLL
#1 - Marth (21) - Melee/Brawl fighter
#2 - Misc. Characters from Fire Emblem (18) - n/a
#3 - Oguma (8)
#4 - Serris (4)
#5 - Sigurd (2)
#5 - Leaf (2)

FIRE EMBLEM - BRAWL POLL
#1 - Ike (4) - Brawl fighter
#2 - Oguma (2)
#3 - Nabarl (1)
#3 - Sigurd (1)
#3 - Mia (1)
#3 - Black Knight (1)
#3 - Soren (1)
#3 - Sheeda (1)
#3 - Maji/Saji (1)
#3 - Jeigan (1)

RARE - MELEE POLL
#1 - 007 James Bond (35) - n/a
#2 - Banjo & Kazooie (18) - n/a
#3 - Diddy Kong (15) - Brawl fighter
#4 - Blast Corps Robot (2) - n/a
#4 - 006 (2) - n/a

DONKEY KONG - BRAWL POLL
#1 - Diddy Kong (4) - Brawl fighter
#2 - King K. Rool (2) - potentially next-in-line for SSB4 roster spot after Diddy Kong and Dixie Kong
#3 - Diddy Kong & Dixie Kong (1) - (Dixie Kong only) Melee/Brawl trophy, potentially next-in-line for SSB4 roster spot after Diddy Kong and King K. Rool

OTHER NES/SNES CHARACTERS - MELEE POLL
#1 - Sukapon (15) - Brawl sticker
#2 - Lip (9) - Lip's Stick as Melee/Brawl item, Lip herself as Brawl sticker
#3 - Prince Richard (8) - Sabure Prince as Brawl sticker
#4 - Metroid (6) - Melee trophy, Brawl Assist Trophy
#4 - Foreman Spike (6) - Golden Hammer from Wrecking Crew as Brawl item
#6 - Pit (5) - Melee trophy, Brawl fighter
#6 - Donbe or Hikari (5) - Melee trophy (both), Brawl sticker (Donbe only)
#6 - Misc. Characters from Marvellous (5) - n/a
#9 - Samurai Goroh (4) - Melee/Brawl trophy, Brawl Assist Trophy, potentially could be added to the SSB4 roster if F-Zero gets a new game before SSB4
#9 - Popo and Nana (4) - Melee/Brawl fighter as Ice Climbers
#9 - Balloon Fighter (4) - Melee trophy, Brawl sticker

OTHER NINTENDO CHARACTERS - BRAWL POLL
#1 - Captain Olimar (3) - Melee trophy, Brawl fighter
#1 - Takamaru (3) - Brawl sticker, potentially could be added to the SSB4 roster since he is the only retro character with the most votes on the Brawl poll and that there would be a mode based on Nazo no Murasamejou in Samurai Warriors 3 for the Wii (kinda like how the blond Little Mac from Super Punch-Out!! and the original game itself was in Fight Night Round 2 for the Gamecube)
#3 - Cheer Squad (2) - Brawl trophy and sticker
#3 - Professor Kawashima (2) - n/a
#3 - Sukapon (2) - Brawl sticker
#6 - Black Shadow (1) - Brawl trophy
#6 - Ray 01 (1) - Ray Mk II as Melee trophy, Ray Mk III as Brawl Assist Trophy
#6 - Donbe (1) - Brawl sticker
#6 - Chibi-Robo (1) - Brawl trophy
#6 - Harry from Teleroboxer (1) - n/a
#6 - Dr. Wright (1) - Melee trophy, Brawl Assist Trophy
#6 - Johnny Thomas from Kung Fu (1) - n/a
#6 - Advance Wars Infantry (1) - Brawl Assist Trophy
#6 - Blue Virus (1) - Melee trophy (with Red and Yellow Virus), Brawl sticker
#6 - Urban Champion (1) - n/a
#6 - Muddy Mole (1) - n/a
#6 - Characters from Famicom Detective Club (1) - Ayumi Tachibana as Melee trophy
#6 - Banker from Mario Paint (1) - n/a
#6 - Hero/Heroine (1) - Brawl sticker (they are from Magical Vacation and Magical StarSign)
#6 - Jill (1) - Brawl Assist Trophy

NON-NINTENDO - MELEE POLL
#1 - Chocobo (9) - n/a
#2 - Doraemon (7) - n/a
#3 - Bomberman (5) - n/a
#4 - Crash Bandicoot (4) - n/a
#5 - Sonic (3) - Brawl fighter
#5 - Mega Man (3) - n/a, but could potentially be added to the SSB4 roster if Inafune asks Sakurai

THIRD-PARTY - BRAWL POLL
#1 - Mega Man (2) - n/a, but could potentially be added to the SSB4 roster if Inafune asks Sakurai
#2 - G-Red (1) - n/a
#2 - Simon Belmont (1) - n/a
#2 - Power Pro-Kun (1) - n/a
#2 - Lupus (1) - n/a
#2 - Sora (1) - n/a
#2 - Princess Katia (1) - n/a
#2 - Kalas (1) - n/a
#2 - Magnus Gallant (1) - n/a
#2 - Colonel Volgin (1) - n/a
#2 - James Bond (1) - n/a

METROID - BRAWL POLL
#1 - Ridley (4) - Melee trophy, Brawl boss, could potentially be adjusted (if Sakurai is interested) to be added to the Brawl roster
#2 - Weavel (1) - Brawl trophy
#2 - Sylux (1) - Brawl trophy
#2 - Noxus (1) - Brawl trophy

KID ICARUS - BRAWL POLL
#1 - Palutena (1) - Pit's Final Smash in Brawl, Brawl trophy
#1 - Medusa (1) - n/a
#1 - Eggplant Wizard (1) - Brawl sticker

GOLDEN SUN - BRAWL POLL
#1 - Isaac (2) - Brawl Assist Trophy, could potentially be added to the SSB4 roster since Golden Sun DS will be coming out but there is a possibility the new protagonist could get in instead
#2 - Felix (1) - n/a

PUNCH-OUT!! - BRAWL POLL
#1 - Little Mac (1) - Brawl Assist Trophy, could potentially be added to the SSB4 roster since his franchise is revived and could be getting a sequel in 1-2 years
#1 - Dragon Chan (1) - n/a

ANIMAL CROSSING - BRAWL POLL
#1 - Animal Crossing Human (2) - Smashville in Brawl, Brawl trophy
#2 - Tom Nook (1) - Smashville in Brawl, Melee/Brawl trophy

PANEL DE PON - BRAWL POLL
#1 - Lip (2) - Lip's Sticker as Melee/Brawl item, Lip herself as Brawl sticker
#2 - Furil (1) - n/a

TOMATO ADVENTURE - BRAWL POLL
#1 - Demille (2) - n/a
#2 - Tomato Robot - n/a


Judging from both polls, I would wager the characters with the best chances of becoming playable in SSB4 would be:

Toad
Mewtwo
Meowth
Krystal
King K. Rool
Dixie Kong
Samurai Goroh
Takamaru
Mega Man
Ridley
Isaac (or Protagonist from Golden Sun DS)
Little Mac

Outside of polls, the other characters with the best chances of becoming playable in SSB4 would be:

Starfy, simply because it is a growing international franchise with 5 games and Nintendo was heavily marketing The Legendary Starfy for its international debut, which means Nintendo wants Starfy to be a major franchise

Tingle, simply because Nintendo found Tingle popular enough to warrant him his own franchise with four games

5th gen Pokemon, simply to promote the 5th gen games like how Lucario was added in Brawl to promote the 4th gen games

New Lord, simply because he or she would be the lord of the latest Fire Emblem game at the time SSB4 is being developed like how Ike was added in Brawl because he was the lord of the latest Fire Emblem game at the time Brawl was being developed

And there would likely be at least an unlikely retro character as an unlockable character, similar to Mr. Game & Watch and R.O.B. were in Melee and Brawl respectively. I think the Hunting Dog from Duck Hunt would be fun to play with. Duck Hunt is the only retro franchise with more sales than all the other retro NES games combined (at least that's what I got from VGChartz). It is not surprising because Duck Hunt (along with Super Mario Bros. and R.O.B.) is practically synonymous with the NES.

 

[Snakeyes]

@ StBF

I still have mixed feelings about l-canceling... One one hand it does feel rewarding to see your character advance to a higher level of speed and maneuverability after investing some of your time to master the technique. On the other, it's still an unnecessary input. All aerials are always better off L-canceled than not. So why should I have to press "shield" every time I land an aerial to cut the recovery time in half when the game could could be programmed with very short landing lag for all aerials at any time in the move's animation?


I'll elaborate on the "Escape" mechanic a bit. It's something that's already present in a number of current fighting games as a last ditch effort to escape from a potential deadly combo.

Here's a Tatsunoko VS Capcom video (Zero, **** YEAH): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04WUkpf7hRk

At around 1:10, Tekkaman is very low on life as Batsu lands a combo starter. Since eating one more combo will KO Tekkaman without a doubt, he "Megacrashes" while in hitstun and Batsu is sent flying to the other side of the screen. This puts both players in a neutral position at a safe distance from each other, allowing Tekkaman to escape to safety for the moment by tagging in his partner.


Here's a Smash scenario:

Falcon has launched Marth in the air with his side B, follows up with an Uair to Nair juggle and is preparing to finish the combo with a Knee (-> Taunt). Marth knows it's going to hit before the hitstun wears off. He inputs the "Escape" command. When the knee connects, Marth "techs" it, jumps sideways off of Falcon and lands at a safe distance (imagine something that resembles a sideways footstool jump). Both players are in a neutral position and Marth has successfully escaped from Falcon's pressure, for now.

What if Falcon is anticipating that Marth will try to "Escape" the Knee of Justice? He simply doesn't Knee and waits for the recovery frames of a failed "Escape" to kick in. Since Marth is completely helpless during that second, Falcon can land and rush in for a grab or even go for a Falcon Punch.


For the falling speed thing, think of a similar effect to falling down with a Parasol but a lot less drastic. Press up, your character falls a bit slower than usual. Press down and you fast-fall.

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

Ok, I think i understand the Escape option, now my last question is how exactly would this be inplemented, input wise? And what does how long is this animation exactly? Would it be easily punished, or a conscise momentary break in defense?

And for L-canceling, I suppose making the end lag would be just as good as long as it always worked(The supposed auto-cancel in Brawl has never worked for me)

Ok, and the direction fall...thing makes sense now

 

[SmashChu]

If there were so many things wrong, why not point them out? It's such a classic cop-out to say "there's a million things wrong with what you said but, oh, you should already know what they are." It's like when you're a kid and you get in trouble for something you didn't do but when you ask your parents what it was they say "oh, you know what you did." It's kind of like the paper bag that every strawman arguement gets stuffed into and I've heard it way too many times in my seven years of spending time on online forums.

The reason you don't is that you get in a reply war (which tends to degrade both arguments and get them off track) and it just takes a while to go though everything. So, I did it instead.

I'm not advocating him; I hate his guts and I've said this several times. Aside from Daisy, he's my most hated video game character of all time. With that being said, there's an enormous side of this arguement that you're ignoring because you don't want to see Tingle and that's the big difference between you and me in this arguement. You're giving into your own bias, I'm not. I'd rather see Vaati 1000X times more than Tingle but, as I already said, he's only been in two games with the last one being 2005, he's virtually unknown outside of Zelda fans and even then he's not that popular. This could basically describe everyone else who's a "contender" for a Zelda spot: one or two games, they haven't been in a game in several years, and outside of Zelda fans they're not that popular.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but he never gave an opinion on Tingle.

Also keep in mind that I've been saying "IF" Zelda gets any new characters. Right now, you have all the major characters: Link, Zelda, Ganondorf, and Toon Link. You have the two main playable characters, the main heroine, and the main villian. As I mentioned in another post, most of the major franchises have their major players on the table: Mario, Zelda, Kirby, and Pokemon; other franchises really don't need anybody else but they still have at least one more reasonable choice if need be: Donkey Kong, Star Fox, Wario, F-Zero, Mother, and Metroid; and other franchises really don't need anybody else: Pikmin, Yoshi, Ice Climber, Kid Icarus, Game and Watch, and ROB. In my opinion, the only already represented franchise in Smash that "needs" another rep at this time is Fire Emblem based on its size and history while other franchises (like Metroid) would just be icing on the cake. At this time, a Zelda addition is questionable but I can still say that Tingle's first in line with everyone else miles if not solely for the reason he has his own franchise. In short, unless somebody big and reoccuring comes along between now and 2012/2013 in the Zelda franchise, it's pretty much going to be Tingle or no one at all for new Zelda characters.

We know what your claim is. Claims are:
You:Tingle will be in Smash Bros
Toise (and me as well): Tingle will not be in Smash Bros.
This is what the arguments have been focused on. It's not exactly what you said, but this is what is being argued.

Also, don't demonize me for saying that Tingle has a chance. I'm more than aware that he's very unpopular. There's really no getting around that. As for the Nintendo Power comment, I was saying that he was kept out of the US because of them. People dislike him and that much is obvious but it's borderline insane to believe that people made accounts in large droves just to keep Tingle out of North America. With that being said, the decision WAS pretty much made by Nintendo Power subscribers with Nintendo.com accounts. It's like what I said earlier, people don't like him but, truth be told, most people don't care on the level that they'd go online to make sure any of his games never see the light of day in North Ameria. The poll didn't have that many people from what I remember. I voted against it but, at the time voting, I think there had only been about 400 people who voted. In comparison, as of September 2008, Brawl sold about 7.47 million copies. It's like with the Brawl poll, it's only estimated that 3-4 thousand people participated with at least 90% of those people being Japanese. Again, you're presented with a small percentage of people who are concerned with the game on a personal level.

No, it was probably because Nintendo new that the game would never take off in the US. Nintendo did not need Nintendo Power to figure that out.

1. As the Sonic and Final Fantasy franchises have shown us, games with big flaws in them still do great. If anything, this really doesn't apply to big franchises and, despite going against the ideal, developers of big games keep both little and big flaws in games all the time. Despite being called the offical death of the Sonic franchise, for example, Sonic and the Black Knight still sold 350,000 copies and despite the huge complaints against Sonic Unleashed (including the long standing complaints in the franchise like gimmicks, annoying side characters, and crappy camera), it still sold over a million copies. Also, despite being called a mediocre and complicated experience altogether, Final Fantasy Dissidia has managed to sell over two million copies worldwide.

The best selling Sonic game has Mario in the title. The flaws were never known to be flaws, or never precived to be as such, They were seen as such when consumers get the game. Also, note how Sonic is on a downward slope it can't get off? The comparison is awful as Sonic is a dieing series because of all it's flaws. Sonic disproves your argument, not help it.

Dissidia is also a compilation of the FF games. 2 million sounds about right. In fact, it probably should have sold more.

As I already showed earlier, Brawl has a lot of flaws in it but still sold stuppendously well. You argued that many of the flaws were unintentional but I personally raise an eyebrow considering how at GDC 08 Sakurai said that he personally created all the characters and decided their properties himself. The ludicrous disjointed hitboxes on Snake's ftilt/utilt? Sakurai. King Dedede's dthrow chain grab? Sakurai. Most of Metaknight's attacks being disjoined, having close to no ending/landing lag, and among the highest priority in the game? Sakurai. The brokeness of the Land Masters and Super Sonic? Sakurai. These are just a few example of flaws in Brawl that the director himself was aware of but they were still let in. In the video game industry as a whole, this happens all the time and, for big franchises, people usually don't care. Heck, Sakurai pretty much said himself that online for Smash Bros was going to suck but it's still the most played online game for the Wii after Mario Kart Wii (another game with a lot of flaws, I might add with the biggest, the brokeness of blue shells, being completely blatent.) In the end, big flaws don't always equal to less sales.

Wait, hold up. Your in tourney land. Anything you say here will be wrong as the game is neither designed nor balanced around competative play. Also, they are still unintentional.

"guess what, you can't avoid him if you play single-player modes, online, or use the random button"

OH DEAR GOD, people might actually have to see him!!!!! ... I'm stunned that you'd suggest that people would get pissed off simply by seeing him and go as far asrefusing to play the game. For single player you don't have to play as him and the game gives you options for unlocking other characters. Heck, I know a lot of people who don't even bother playing the single player mode and unlock most the major things through VS mode. For online, again, YOU don't have to play as him and it's pettiness in its most extreme form if you are angered by OTHER PEOPLE playing him. For the random button, you can always quit the match if you hate playing (or merely seeing apparently) him. As someone who absolutely can't stand Tingle, I'm having a hard time seeing things from your perspective. I used to hate Ike because everybody and their grandma used to play him online but that didn't stop me from playing online. I hated ROB for the longest time but it really didn't bother me that much when other people played him. Basically, you're highlighting the most disgruntled of disgruntled gamers and suggesting that they would somehow become the majority.

Sometimes there is an entity that by its very nature is meant to appeal only to a certain, if possibly narrow, demographic. It's reasonable to assume that people who do not fall within that demographic group would simply ignore it, right? Ha ha. WRONG!!!

The Barney is a character which receives undue scorn and hatred from groups that it was never meant to appeal to in the first place. It inspires an anti-Periphery Demographic, who respond to them in such a way that you'd think they had committed some unspeakable crime. Expect a complete lack of Parental Bonus, a Fleeting Demographic, and a ton of Geocities (RIP) pages decrying its "crimes". Consider the contradictions in the phrase "hated teen idol."

Regarding the lesser known and likeable characters, not everyone in Brawl is absolutely loved and people have taken their own courses to avoid them like I pointed out earlier. I don't think it'd be too much a stretch to say that more people dislike ROB than like him, for example. The Ice Climbers are in a similar boat too. People hated Wario simply because he farts. Pit has terrible voice acting. Sonic's his usual annoying self. Basically, people have found reasonable ways around this or have, lo and behold, put up with it because, in the grand scheme of the game, the annoying characters don't really detract from the experience or take away the game's appeal as a whole.

This is infinitely harder than you and I think, because we are so jaded by our own perspective. I would insist that Viewtiful Joe would be the best character ever, but I'm not sure people would really want the game more. Neither of us would have ever thought of ROB, and yet "ROBOT" was the CROWD FAVORITE by FAR in the GDC matches the CAs had. Everyone loved him! We as gamers are way too biased to make this decision easily.

People like ROB. You have to understand that people will hate a lot of things for no reason. Ice Climbers get hate for no reason. But, this does not justify adding in content that people deliberately hate, especially when you know dang well they hate it. Ever character will be hated in one way or another, but not on the same level as Tingle.

Some people argue that characters are added to promote their own games but the only character who had "advertising power" was Roy in Melee. Most people really don't care about the character's history and it's usually only a brave few who step out of their comfort zones to try new franchises based on those they "meet" in Smash Bros. If he becomes more popular, Nintendo gains but, if he doesn't, no skin off their nose because it doesn't cost them anything to add him in anyways and he'll probably continue having his own franchise and making cameos in the Zelda games.

Except you added a character lots of people hate with no benefit. It's the same backwards logic.

 

[n88]

@Arcadenik

I hate to burst your bubble, but the Melee polls don't matter anymore. The polls are Sakurai's way of trying to figure out who's popular and who isn't. It doesn't really make sense to use a ten-tear old poll to determine current popularity. He would probably use the Brawl Polls, which, while also old, would be a bit more up-to-date.

 

[Big-Cat]

@ StBF

I still have mixed feelings about l-canceling... One one hand it does feel rewarding to see your character advance to a higher level of speed and maneuverability after investing some of your time to master the technique. On the other, it's still an unnecessary input. All aerials are always better off L-canceled than not. So why should I have to press "shield" every time I land an aerial to cut the recovery time in half when the game could could be programmed with very short landing lag for all aerials at any time in the move's animation?

That's what I'm thinking.

I'll elaborate on the "Escape" mechanic a bit. It's something that's already present in a number of current fighting games as a last ditch effort to escape from a potential deadly combo.

Here's a Tatsunoko VS Capcom video (Zero, **** YEAH): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04WUkpf7hRk

At around 1:10, Tekkaman is very low on life as Batsu lands a combo starter. Since eating one more combo will KO Tekkaman without a doubt, he "Megacrashes" while in hitstun and Batsu is sent flying to the other side of the screen. This puts both players in a neutral position at a safe distance from each other, allowing Tekkaman to escape to safety for the moment by tagging in his partner.

This sounds kinda like the reversal window in Street Fighter, but used differently. With Smash, this escape could be executed by pressing B.

For the falling speed thing, think of a similar effect to falling down with a Parasol but a lot less drastic. Press up, your character falls a bit slower than usual. Press down and you fast-fall.

Reminds me of Muramasa. I question of whether Smash would benefit from a slow fall. Aerial characters could milk it.

 

[Snakeyes]

Ok, I think i understand the Escape option, now my last question is how exactly would this be inplemented, input wise? And what does how long is this animation exactly? Would it be easily punished, or a conscise momentary break in defense?

I think the duration of the useful part of the move should not be much longer than the invincibility of an airdodge. The recovery should be just long enough for a decent player to punish (a momentary break as you say).

I'm not sure about the input, maybe just tech right before an attack hits you? I'm also undecided on the penalty it would give. In a traditional fighter with lifebars it's easy to make the user take twice as much damage after a burst/megacrash. Smash is a bit more tricky because it relies on knocking the opponent off the screen.

 

[Big-Cat]

Snakeyes, which of these would you prefer:

Stale Moves or Combo Scaling?

Combo scaling is basically this (from Eventhubs):
* 100% damage for first and second hits of a combo.
* 80% damage for third hit.
* 70% damage for fourth hit.
* 60% damage for fifth hit.
* 50% damage for sixth hit.
* 40% damage for seventh hit.
* 30% damage for eighth hit.
* 20% damage for ninth hit.

And each hit beyond the ninth drops the damage by an additional 10%.
Each multi-attack move like Screw Attack counts as one move.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Under no circumstances do we "need" Claus.

Oh; Hello Gamenerd. I haven't seen you in quite some time. What's up?

If I may first before discussing this since most of this post is on the OP Rule: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8651121&postcount=27033 - I feel toise did a far easier job on what I was trying to say on that part of the post.

Anyhow; I wasn't saying we need Claus. Heck; I personally don't think he's really that "Vital" Even If sakurai considers him next in line. Hypothetically speaking, If Claus got in over say...Goroh and Ridley, then I would actually be pretty annoyed considering I enjoy F-Zero and Metroid as well as franchises. Mother just happens to be one of my more favorite franchises.

Claus isn't even in the same league as K. Rool, Ridley and Samurai Goroh. He's not even in the same league as Tingle (and by the way, I believe Tingle has a fair chance). Two reps for Mother is already over-representation, especially in comparison to some other franchises.

In a technical way: Yes, the five are in the same league depending on how Sakurai looks at it. Sakurai may happen to see them all as next in line for that series. However, Mother getting 3 reps while DK Doesn't? Uh...

It was merely pointing out that Sakurai has a few series to bill out before resorting to using Krystal; Thus why the rule is still in order.

As for over representation: I disagree. Over-Repping is adding characters that are unneeded, and looking at both...
Ness - From Smash 64, Technically reps ninten too...And really do I need anymore outside of this?
Lucas - The most recent Protagonist of the Mother series, and honestly without him Mother seems more like just some random retro series.

I'd also note 3 things about mother:
1.Mother helped inspire pokemon - As said before not sure on this one, but the other two are more convincing.
2.On almost every roster back in pre-brawl days, there was two mother reps - Ok, maybe not almost every.
3.Mother has been rather neglected in America outside of Smash - Really, don't the fans deserve a bone after all this time?

And if Mother were to get another character, there are all number of ideas they could exhaust before they resort to using Claus.

You make it sound like the idea of Claus is torture; However to be truthful, mother does have a rather unique cast of characters.

Personally, I would see to it that Pokey becomes a character, trotting around in a miniaturised Spider Mech (only slightly bigger than Bowser), since he's one of the only characters, bar Giygas (who lacks a physical form) and Andonuts, to actually cross the gap between the otherwise unrelated Mother games. However, even that seems outrageously unlikely. Although to be fair I would like to see Flint or Teddy, if only to fulfill the stereotypes of a cowboy character and a bruiser/bouncer-esque character. But I'm going on a tangent here. Long story short, there is a barely minute chance of Mother getting a justly undeserved third character, and if it were to get one, there are lots of alternatives to Claus (although I'd quite like to see Mother 1 representation, hence Teddy).

You know; To be fair I never really spoke outside of Claus much when it came to Mother's character rep. Jeff/Duster are two characters that I feel would be cool despite them having little to no chance, and I think boney wearing human clothes would at least be neat as a trophy or something ever since a Fan Art Pic I saw. As for Mother 1, Teddy is actually my favorite party member there ironically.

To not carry away from the original point - If mother gets a third rep (Probably not even in Smash 4) Then really, the partner's have no shot considering If you add one, what's stopping the developers from bringing more in?

So really, you're down with important characters to (That work...Or Giygas would absorb there true form to smash ):
Ninten
Claus
Porky

Of course; Ninten at best seems to be alternative costume material, thus we're really left down to these two. I believe It's still possible that Sakurai would pick porky/pokey over Claus. Really I wouldn't consider it madness without either of em.

Claus is not and has never been the shoe-in you imagine he is.

I probably got caught up into all the brawl hype way back then; But no. I don't think he's a shoe-in now. He's next in line for the next mother rep? Possibly. Will mother get a THIRD rep? Most likely not. In smash 4? I'm not counting on it

Although whilst we're talking Mother, Giygas should be a stage. It could start out at Mt. Itoi from Mother 1, with the ship emerging, then it morphs into Giygas Lair from Earthbound, before turning off into the psychedelic mess that is the final fight.

Personally what I think; If we get one past stage from mother I want it to be Fourside and then a new M3 Stage, but If we get a new stage to rep M1/2, Giygas's Lair is one of my top choices, especially If we FOR SURE Get Pokey Means Buisness (We need that song in Smash 4 for mother representation: Fact.)

Oh and great suggestion on it changing. Two in one!

I said The Masked Man's attacks seem generic, because they really do seem generic. He has a canon arm, a sword, and a jetpack. In reality, that kind of sounds like some odd fanfic character that the author just wanted to give a lot of powers. Thus, to me at least, the masked man seems rather generc, especially when you compare him to someone who could hypotheticall be fighting other characters inside a spider robot.

A lightning Sword, oh and bombs and PSI - Sure you could look at ike and say "That's another sword wielder" Or look at Lucas and say "That's another PSI User" But in reality, you can create a lot out of one character with all those moves - Just look at Ike/Marth - They only share one move.

But I do agree that Pokey could be rather unique as well

And despite your description, I'm still coming off with the impression that with both of his roles combined, that he's the better villain to use in Smash. Heck, the fact that he can be both the villain for Ness and Lucas should be enough really, and I think Sakurai knew that by actually throwing Porky into Brawl.

It's fine, and the reason I believe he was thrown in for both of them is because he's a big villian and with SSE Sakurai seemed to just go for characters who were mainly to big. I'm glad that I could at least throw some insight on the description of what Pokey and Claus could do so you won't be totally clueless on the subject and won't have to rom just to find out.

 

[Snakeyes]

That's what I'm thinking.


This sounds kinda like the reversal window in Street Fighter, but used differently. With Smash, this escape could be executed by pressing B.


Reminds me of Muramasa. I question of whether Smash would benefit from a slow fall. Aerial characters could milk it.

Thanks for the input. Do you feel that taking a break from Smash and going back to traditional fighters for a while gives you a broader look on fighting games (including SSB) in general?


Anyways, the biggest issue here is how can we get Nintendo to listen to the competitive Smash community.

 

[Snakeyes]

Snakeyes, which of these would you prefer:

Stale Moves or Combo Scaling?

Combo scaling is basically this (from Eventhubs):
* 100% damage for first and second hits of a combo.
* 80% damage for third hit.
* 70% damage for fourth hit.
* 60% damage for fifth hit.
* 50% damage for sixth hit.
* 40% damage for seventh hit.
* 30% damage for eighth hit.
* 20% damage for ninth hit.

And each hit beyond the ninth drops the damage by an additional 10%.
Each multi-attack move like Screw Attack counts as one move.

Combo scaling hands down.

 

[Arcadenik]

@Arcadenik

I hate to burst your bubble, but the Melee polls don't matter anymore. The polls are Sakurai's way of trying to figure out who's popular and who isn't. It doesn't really make sense to use a ten-tear old poll to determine current popularity. He would probably use the Brawl Polls, which, while also old, would be a bit more up-to-date.

Ahh... but you see, you didn't look at the bigger picture. The bottom line is... in spite of the fact the characters I listed in my previous post are based on outdated polls, most of them are still some of the most-wanted characters for SSB4. Of course it is not guaranteed that all of them (I wish they all would!) would get in... but I can safely say that half of them (if not more than a half) are very likely to get in SSB4. Right?

 

[Snakeyes]

I think I forgot about flushing tripping down the drain.

EDIT: And Phoenix Wright.

 

[Big-Cat]

Thanks for the input. Do you feel that taking a break from Smash and going back to traditional fighters for a while gives you a broader look on fighting games (including SSB) in general?


Anyways, the biggest issue here is how can we get Nintendo to listen to the competitive Smash community.

You have no idea what Street Fighter did to me regarding the genre. Now, I'm maining El Fuerte, the character with the third largest learning curve and learning Viper, the character with the greatest learning curve for any Street Fighter character ever. It made me see that tier list doesn't mean that much and a Dan can beat a Sagat.

This entire time, I feel like I've been living in another country and have returned to show what we can learn from them. I used to be against the idea of a super meter. Now, I'd love to see it Smashified complete with EX moves.

You are right in saying that our biggest obstacle is getting Nintendo's attention on this. Our best bet is simply make the competitive scene more vocal so we can hopefully have a balance between casual and competitive aspects.

I'm glad you agree on combo scaling. Right now, the stale moves holds a number of characters like Sonic back. Combo scaling allows for closer matches and puts combos back into the game.

Oh, tripping does need to go. I think everyone can agree that random tripping was the worst mechanic ever added into Smash.

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

@Kuma (I had them editied into my original post...but I guess you missed them?) Though the bolded chunk is the only really important question I'd like answered

I too have never actually competed, though I use wavedashing and L-canceling (see opionons above) against my friends (and 5-stock them, there not so good) and computers.

I have however watched Matches between people who can wavedash extremely well, and I when watching them, I see the competetive value of what it can be. I feel that if you don't want to use it, don't. Let those who can, do it and don't bother with them.

Though, regarding the chain combo (Standard into special) idea...wouldn't this give advantes to characters with naturally better specials (Metaknight's combos would be rediculous, while Mario's would be less than spectacular)...unless I am misinterpretting your ideas.

I am starting to see the effect combo scaling can have, and I like it.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

If there were so many things wrong, why not point them out?

My options are:

A) Spend however long trying to change your asinine way of thinking about characters, writing big posts that explain why you're wrong, and watching you misinterpret clear facts and write even bigger posts that I have to counter

B) Ignore you and do whatever

I only have so much patience with people who either don't listen or just don't get it. Lucky for you, Chu's got enough energy to keep going.

Also, none of this "let's shake hands and leave as enemies", I can't stand online grudges especially those that stem (real or imagined) from game debates. If you want a good idea of what I'm talking about, ask Pieman.

Grudge? Where's that coming from? We're just debating. If you're taking it personally (or thinking I'M taking it personally), that's your problem. Objectivity is pretty critical and I'm rather averse to arguing with people who lack it.

By the way, Pieman's one of my favorite posters here, I don't know why you're getting the impression that we're enemies or something. Speaking of which...

I'm still coming off with the impression that with both of his roles combined, that he's the better villain to use in Smash. Heck, the fact that he can be both the villain for Ness and Lucas should be enough really, and I think Sakurai knew that by actually throwing Porky into Brawl.

This is correct, at least in regards to importance to the series overall. I guarantee you most of the support from Claus comes from the emotional impact he had compared to Porky. Nobody cries for the fat kid.

 

[Big-Cat]

Though, regarding the chain combo (Standard into special) idea...wouldn't this give advantes to characters with naturally better specials (Metaknight's combos would be rediculous, while Mario's would be less than spectacular)...unless I am misinterpretting your ideas.

Sorry. Must have missed that one.

I'd say that certain only certain specials can be canceled into to have an effect. This depends on how much starting lag there is on the special in order for it to be effective. For example, C. Viper can c.MK then cancel into her Thunder Knuckle. At the same time, she can't cancel into Burning Kick with the same move, only her EX version can do that.
EDIT: I forgot to mention that only certain attacks can be cancel-able. For multi-hit moves like Zamus' UpTiltA, you can only cancel after the first hit only.

Then there comes your reflexes. From what I've experienced, it's hard to cancel from a light attack to a special. In Smash terms, this would be like trying to cancel from Ness'DTiltA into PK Fire. It's doable, but it's difficult to time it right. You would have to buffer the input for it just as you're putting in the iput for the last attack. However, this could be resolved by giving Ness DTilt A more frames and more power.

Regarding Meta Knight though. Overall, I think this guy will be getting a nerf next time unless Sakurai becomes incredibly biased to his own work. Some of these nerfs I have in mind are:

1. Mach Tornado just acts as get off me move in it's normal state. An EX version will have a vacuum effect. With both of these, you cannot move around with it.
2. The Shuttle Loop will have weaker knockback and damage. The EX version is like the Brawl one.
3. Drill Rush gives no knockback and can not juggle the opponent. The EX version however, does bring the opponent with him and lasts longer.
4. Can't say for sure on Dimensional Cape.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

This is correct, at least in regards to importance to the series overall. I guarantee you most of the support from Claus comes from the emotional impact he had compared to Porky. Nobody cries for the fat kid.

Actually; Most of his support comes from (From what I've seen) "WOW HE'D BE SO COOL IN SMASH" While porky was rather bland and just did the following:
-Porky said some Nasty Words!
-Porky Rammed into you (which I can't even remember If he did so)
-Porky used PSI (...Which Ness, Lucas, and Claus also have access to)

And the boss fight in brawl against him proves that a bit too. (note: a bit)

But the emotional impact/the impact on M3 that Claus had like Giygas had in the other two (Well his isn't really emotional but he had impact) is probably one of the bigger reasons behind his support as well.

edit: Just a note on what I was saying, I wasn't saying porky wouldn't be unique but from a standpoint, porky doesn't really do much that looks all as appealing to smash as opposed to what Claus does when playing the actual game of M2/3

 

[Pieman0920]

A lightning Sword, oh and bombs and PSI - Sure you could look at ike and say "That's another sword wielder" Or look at Lucas and say "That's another PSI User" But in reality, you can create a lot out of one character with all those moves - Just look at Ike/Marth - They only share one move.

But I do agree that Pokey could be rather unique as well

You don't understand, I'm not saying he would be a clone, or that he would have to borrow a lot of moves. What I'm saying is that his concept is fairly generic, especially compared to other pottential characters such as Porky. Its sort of the reason that I'm a bit hesitant on Saki, since while he certainly has the abilities to be playable, nothing is quite that interesting. Claus has a sword, psychic powers, and a arm canon, which have all been done, even if they coculd pottentially be done again, and in my own mind, characters with pottentially generic movesets should be reserved to popular lead characters, rather than secondary ones. Thus Porky, who may or may not be unique in terms of actual moves, but certainly would be unique in aethetics, seems to be a better pick, especially when combined with his other advantages.

It's fine, and the reason I believe he was thrown in for both of them is because he's a big villian and with SSE Sakurai seemed to just go for characters who were mainly to big. I'm glad that I could at least throw some insight on the description of what Pokey and Claus could do so you won't be totally clueless on the subject and won't have to rom just to find out.

There were smaller villains, but they were all PCs. The problem with having a non-large boss is that it makes no sense to not make them playable, since you should logically be able to knock them around.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

You don't understand, I'm not saying he would be a clone, or that he would have to borrow a lot of moves. What I'm saying is that his concept is fairly generic, especially compared to other pottential characters such as Porky. Its sort of the reason that I'm a bit hesitant on Saki, since while he certainly has the abilities to be playable, nothing is quite that interesting. Claus has a sword, psychic powers, and a arm canon, which have all been done, even if they coculd pottentially be done again, and in my own mind, characters with pottentially generic movesets should be reserved to popular lead characters, rather than secondary ones. Thus Porky, who may or may not be unique in terms of actual moves, but certainly would be unique in aethetics, seems to be a better pick, especially when combined with his other advantages.

Who has a Lightning Sword now? - And you forgot Big Bombs and a Jetpack (With wings)

But I see quite where you're coming from; He's a fighter who has things that some other characters have done. I just personally see it that the psychics in the character aren't the biggest priority as it matters more on what specific attacks they would bring onto the table (I.E. Lucario gets stronger with the higher damage he has, Olimar's Pikmin, etc)

There were smaller villains, but they were all PCs. The problem with having a non-large boss is that it makes no sense to not make them playable, since you should logically be able to knock them around.

Thus I'm pointing out that we don't really know what Porky's role means; Could it mean PC In the future similar to the ridley case? Could it mean that he wasn't meant to be playable? Answer: We don't know, since like AT's, this is our first time dealing with Non-PC Bosses. In the meantime; I'll stick to that Kid Claus alt in Brawl.

As for another topic to discuss that I've recently had a bit of a change in heart of: Cut Melee veterans. I realized yesterday that Toise is right; Melee Veterans removed were one of the most things people talked about. I even asked a few of my friends "What's the Number 1 Flaw you have with brawl?" And they went "Pichu, Mewtwo, and Roy would've been cool to see return...Doc could really be an alt like Kid Claus and Daisy" In a basic summary.

So really: We know who they are (Doc, Pichu, Mewtwo, Roy) But what should become of them in the next game?

I personally think Doc should be an Alt, Roy...Depends on If they go with another lord, and Mewtwo/Pichu (Plusle & Minun plz?) Really depend on how Pokemon gets represented in the next game. (Which brings me back to the whole Downloadable Content idea)

Discuss.

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

@Kuma

Sorry, I'm trying to get this.

So in certain frames of a certain move, one can input the command to iniate a special without havingthe current attack finish/ the hitstun of previous attack not wearing off allowing for a real combo?

 

[Big-Cat]

@Kuma

Sorry, I'm trying to get this.

So in certain frames of a certain move, one can input the command to iniate a special without having as much lag/ the hitstun of previous attack not wearing off allowing for a real combo?

You're close. You have to put in the input just as the move hits. If you're successful, the first move has no ending lag and you immediately go into the special and the move is unblockable.

Again, I'll mention Viper again. You have to use her crouching medium kick on the opponent. While the attack hits, you have to immediately do the input for the Thunder Knuckle. During this time, Viper does not retract her leg AKA no ending lag on the first one.

Trust me, this is much easier than it sounds.

Here's a video explanation of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_qPSEhXoZY

 

[xLucariofanx]

I hope they fix Falco's Final Smash. He should have an Arwing or something

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

Ok, I think I get it now.

So, would this be useable with regular attacks or only into specials?

 

[Big-Cat]

Ok, I think I get it now.

So, would this be useable with regular attakcs or only into specials?

Canceling would only be done into specials. Going into regular attacks would be linking which I'd rather not see in Smash.

Anyway, here's another example of canceling that can applied in Smash:

Lucas-FTiltAxx(cancel into)PK Fire.

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

Haha I think I'm getting it now.

I'm still concerned about certain characters having more prevalent combos(or at least oppurtunities ot go into them) than others.

Like Ike: The only special that seems to have a low enough start lags are counter (useless in a combo) and maybe aether... While /Mario (who now that I understand the concept better) has 4 viable combo moves. (cape would be a nasty combo move)

 

[SmashChu]

The problem with these ideas KumaOso is they'll make the game to hard for some players. Some people won't have fun. I know I don't have fun in Street Fighter because of these.

Games should be designed for the lowest level of play, not the highest. This would make competitive players happy, but not everyone else.

 

[Big-Cat]

Haha I think I'm getting it now.

I'm still concerned about certain characters having more prevalent combos(or at least oppurtunities ot go into them) than others.

Like Ike: The only special that seems to have a low enough start lags are counter (useless in a combo) and maybe aether... While /Mario (who now that I understand the concept better) has 4 viable combo moves. (cape would be a nasty combo move)

Well, in Ike's defense, he's a heavy hitter so him being able to cancel into everything could have problems. Be in mind that some characters are not meant to be big combo stringers, just heavy one time hitters.

The problem with these ideas KumaOso is they'll make the game to hard for some players. Some people won't have fun. I know I don't have fun in Street Fighter because of these.

Games should be designed for the lowest level of play, not the highest. This would make competitive players happy, but not everyone else.

How is this going to be too hard for players? If it's explained on the website and/or the manual, I doubt people would have a hard time understanding a concept as simple as canceling. It's manner of wording things right. If I say that you have a small window of frames to cancel a move into something else, no one will bother with it. If I say that you have to do it at the right moment, it's a lot easier for people to understand.

Games should not be designed for the lowest level of play. Eventually, people are going to get tired of the games being so easy and/or not enough in it to keep them playing. This leads to poor sales in sequels. However, the too much competitive stuff can kill sales as well. Games should be designed somewhere in between. People can either go competitive, or they can play casually.

Just be glad I'm not suggesting parrying.

 

[Thrillhouse-vh.]

Just be glad I'm not suggesting parrying.

Marth, Snake, and MK would truly be unstoppable.

 

[n88]

The problem with these ideas KumaOso is they'll make the game to hard for some players. Some people won't have fun. I know I don't have fun in Street Fighter because of these.

Games should be designed for the lowest level of play, not the highest. This would make competitive players happy, but not everyone else.

NO.
NO.
JUST NO.

Go play any old Mario/Zelda and compare them to their DS counterparts (NSMB and Phantom Hourglass). If you still think that video games should be designed for scrubs, let me know, and I'll talk to you then.


On the Cancelling Standards to Specials thing: I think it could probably be abused in some cases, and shouldn't work for all Specials, but a select few. (As I've said before)

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

@Smashchu

Adding in more playable (Competetive, as you say) features does not make a game harder to play nessicarily, just different. These features will allow some players to go beyond the lower levels, while the lower levels can continue playing where they want to. Wavedashing did not kill the game for lower level players, it just made it better for competetive players.

Also, I am really starting to like the idea's of more individualized stats (Of which include chain combo-bility) to make a more diverse cast of characters.

As we have it now most characters can be classified mostly into power and speed, and from there fast-faller vs. floaty , juggler, and projectile-er. (Of course some characters fall into special categories like Pit, and Peach, who I would call Recovery characters)

Adding in things like ledge-catch distance ( How far away a character can be from the ledge before auto-latching), Chain combo'ing, individual hitstun, can diversify the "types" of characters we see In smash

 

[BBQTV]

Who has a Lightning Sword now? - And you forgot Big Bombs and a Jetpack (With wings)

But I see quite where you're coming from; He's a fighter who has things that some other characters have done. I just personally see it that the psychics in the character aren't the biggest priority as it matters more on what specific attacks they would bring onto the table (I.E. Lucario gets stronger with the higher damage he has, Olimar's Pikmin, etc)


Thus I'm pointing out that we don't really know what Porky's role means; Could it mean PC In the future similar to the ridley case? Could it mean that he wasn't meant to be playable? Answer: We don't know, since like AT's, this is our first time dealing with Non-PC Bosses. In the meantime; I'll stick to that Kid Claus alt in Brawl.

As for another topic to discuss that I've recently had a bit of a change in heart of: Cut Melee veterans. I realized yesterday that Toise is right; Melee Veterans removed were one of the most things people talked about. I even asked a few of my friends "What's the Number 1 Flaw you have with brawl?" And they went "Pichu, Mewtwo, and Roy would've been cool to see return...Doc could really be an alt like Kid Claus and Daisy" In a basic summary.

So really: We know who they are (Doc, Pichu, Mewtwo, Roy) But what should become of them in the next game?

I personally think Doc should be an Alt, Roy...Depends on If they go with another lord, and Mewtwo/Pichu (Plusle & Minun plz?) Really depend on how Pokemon gets represented in the next game. (Which brings me back to the whole Downloadable Content idea)

Discuss.

true most people got pissed when they weren't in but unless they change its nothing really new and if they have a roster size limit or something i dont want it wasted on them when it could be used for someone else someone like TINGLE!

I hope they fix Falco's Final Smash. He should have an Arwing or something

yeah they should cause personaly he prefers the air

 

[Big-Cat]

On the Cancelling Standards to Specials thing: I think it could probably be abused in some cases, and shouldn't work for all Specials, but a select few. (As I've said before)

That's understandable and it makes perfect sense for me. Can you imagine if Luigi could cancel into his Shoryuken? At the same time, a number of moves can't be canceled because of the lag involved, but there is more than likely some way around that issue.

Adding in things like ledge-catch distance ( How far away a character can be from the ledge before auto-latching), Chain combo'ing, individual hitstun, can diversify the "types" of characters we see In smash

I'm all for diversity, but don't you think some things need to be universal? If Ness and Lucas' grab release frames are any indication, we may have problems with individual hit stun.

For the diverse grab range, is this really more based on the size of characters in most cases ie. Olimar, because of his short arms, has a short range, but a character like Snake has more?

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

I meant specifically for Ledge grabs, which in this case wouldn't be as influenced by size as other factors, It would be on how it compliments their recovery.

An example of this would be Ivysaur, Olimar, and any other tether-recovery only characters who would need to grab the ledge from farther away (around the average brawl edge grab) while the other characters get theirs nerfed down to somewhere around melee.

Some things can be universal, while others should not, but not many things, as they are, are universal, I just want to to take the varying "types" and add more of an extreme specturm for each to fall into.

 

[Big-Cat]

I meant specifically for Ledge grabs, which in this case wouldn't be as influenced by size as other factors, It would be on how it compliments their recovery.

An example of this would be Ivysaur, Olimar, and any other tether-recovery only characters who would need to grab the ledge from farther away (around the average brawl edge grab) while the other characters get theirs nerfed down to somewhere around melee.

Some things can be universal, while others should not, but not many things, as they are, are universal, I just want to to take the varying "types" and add more of an extreme specturm for each to fall into.

I understand now. This would make things more interesting. Anyway, I'd just like to these be universal:

1. Damage - Ex. If one move deals 10% to Mario, it deals 10% to everyone else.
2. Hitstun - Like I mentioned earlier, I'd rather not have a repeat of Ness and Lucas being subject to chain grabs.

So, if we were to put everything into stats for each character, we'd be looking at.

1. Height
2. Weight
3. Jump 1
4. Jump 2
5. Running Speed
6. Walking Speed
7. Grab Range
8. Tether?
9. Multiple Jumps?
10. Wall Jump?
11. Wall Grab?

With grab range being the only varying stat added.

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

Damage should stay universal, agreed.

But I haven't heard of this hitstun situation, care to eloborate?

 

[Big-Cat]

Damage should stay universal, agreed.

But I haven't heard of this hitstun situation, care to eloborate?

I haven't seen it myself, but I hear it mentioned a lot regarding Ness and Lucas. The problem they have is that they have a long helpless state where they can easily be chaingrabbed by a certain amount of characters.