[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[n88]

Do I need to slap you!?

The minute you say "scrub," your point is lost and you look like an idiot. Smart people don't say scrub. It's obvious you don't care about the so called "scrubs" so I doubt you'd design a videogame for people who aren't "uber1337" like yourself.

Let's be make it REALLY simple for you.
Game is made simple. In this way, the game can reach as many people as it can.
The game is also fun (pong would be an example of this)
Because the game is a good game and removes nmany barriers, it allows weaker plays to enter.

Now, your idea. Since you claim games should not be made for scrubs.........
A game is made with lots of depth. It is perfect for competitive play
Quality wise, it is still good (Street Fighter and other 2D fighting games would be this)
Lower end players get frustrated as they can not

1. Compete with other much better players at their level (basically, they get beat down)
2. They have to invest too much time

These players stop playing and move onto another game

Basically, the people who can play it varies inversely with the difficulty. When the game is too hard, less people play it. When a game is easy, more people play it. The only exception to this rule is if a game gets too easy when there isn't much variation on the inputs and it basically becomes monotonous. However, very few games have hit this. Wii Sports, Wii Play, Pong, Space Invaders, Pac-Man, Brawl, and Mario Kart are NOT examples of this. A game that is may just be a game where you move a cursor to hit ballons. Of course, games like Duck Hunt are like this and sold amazingly.

The minute you post a stupid picture, your point is lost and you look like an idiot.
Try NOT stereotyping.

Did I say I was really good? No. Did I say games should be developed for super-competitive people? No. I said that games should not be designed with the lowest skill level in mind.

They should be developed with mid-skill level players in mind. You know, the ol' "easy to pick up, difficult to master" shtick. Players are generally unhappy with insanely difficult games, yes, but they generally don't like games that don't provide some challenge, either.

Here's another scenario:

A fairly simple game is made, but it has a few aspects that make it appealing for competitive play. Lower-end players have the option of:
a) Improving
b) Playing Casually
c) Playing something else

Notice the bolded option? That's what the vast majority of people who play any given game do. There's no law that says you have to play competitively, and competitive aspects intrude less into casual play than casual aspects intrude into competitive play. Generally speaking, both casuals and competitives were happy with Melee (More ideally suited for competitive play), but Brawl (More ideally suited for casual play) produced a lot less satisfaction in the Competitive side of things.

That's not to say it's impossible for games to be too competitive-focused, but Smash is currently far, far from that, and a few new ATs/Competitive aspects wouldn't hurt it, and would make the competitive scene much more enjoyable.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Again, not so good at huge posts, but I'll throw my pebbles at your massive sheild

Your saying competetive people ruin the game for casuals, but why are we to assume everyone who plays smash bros competetively is going to be a massive douche. Because of two pokemon examples, the entire community of older pokemon players are complete A-holes?

Yes, there can be annoying tools who play a game, they exist in Brawl already, adding a new feature will nto remove these guys from existence.

And for the chart of most played games, how exactly is that information attained?

I prefer concise posts like yours, Shino.

It's not about douchebaggery, even though that's very common. It's mostly to do with the fact that the average player (I'm trying to avoid using the word casual, but basically anyone who doesn't practice ATs or "study up" the mechanics of the game) hates going against someone who clearly spends a good chunk of time trying to master anything and everything they can to give them an advantage to win.

Or basically, "regular players" hate going against "meta-game players." That might be a better way of putting it.

Keep in mind that there's nothing wrong with the meta-game and those who favor it, it's just that playing against them is a total buzzkill if you're not into that whole thing. It's something you really have to see from the perspective of the regular player to understand (which isn't too hard since nobody can be meta in every game out there).


Anyway, the whole point was that with Melee, it wasn't that big a deal since Smash wasn't as huge then and there was no online play. It's pretty mainstream at this point and we're online now, so it's best to maintain that whole "everyone's game" aspect. It's not as bad as some people make it out to be (unless you REALLY can't stand Brawl, in which case yeah, you're gonna hate SSB4 too, sorry).

As for the chart, it's all on the Nintendo Channel. There's a paragraph on that page that should explain everything.


@Kuma: I spent this time responding to Shino because he's actually trying to understand this instead of swimming in Egyptian rivers and whatnot. Your post is full of could be, should be, and probably. Nothing you've posted so far suggests you're actually familiar with people or sales or anything we've discussed.

By the way, when I say "change your entire perspective," I mean exactly that. Means months of reading for you and months of writing for me. Even if you were totally down for that, I don't have the time.

 

[Big-Cat]

I prefer concise posts like yours, Shino.

It's not about douchebaggery, even though that's very common. It's mostly to do with the fact that the average player (I'm trying to avoid using the word casual, but basically anyone who doesn't practice ATs or "study up" the mechanics of the game) hates going against someone who clearly spends a good chunk of time trying to master anything and everything they can to give them an advantage to win.

Or basically, "regular players" hate going against "meta-game players." That might be a better way of putting it.

Keep in mind that there's nothing wrong with the meta-game and those who favor it, it's just that playing against them is a total buzzkill if you're not into that whole thing. It's something you really have to see from the perspective of the regular player to understand (which isn't too hard since nobody can be meta in every game out there).


Anyway, the whole point was that with Melee, it wasn't that big a deal since Smash wasn't as huge then and there was no online play. It's pretty mainstream at this point and we're online now, so it's best to maintain that whole "everyone's game" aspect. It's not as bad as some people make it out to be (unless you REALLY can't stand Brawl, in which case yeah, you're gonna hate SSB4 too, sorry).

You make it sound like average players are going to be stuck with playing against people who are much better than them. Also, online play just allowed people to play people that weren't around them, it's not like people are stuck with that.

@Kuma: I spent this time responding to Shino because he's actually trying to understand this instead of swimming in Egyptian rivers and whatnot. Your post is full of could be, should be, and probably. Nothing you've posted so far suggests you're actually familiar with people or sales or anything we've discussed.

How the heck am I being in denial? I'm saying there's more to this whole thing than appealing to the lowest common denominator in order to make the most money.

 

[Starphoenix]

To be honest I am rather lost in this whole discussion. I am not exactly the smartest guy when it comes to understanding mechanics and all that stuff. I simply followed the series from the 64 to Brawl and mostly play with my family.

Both sides have things agreeable and not so agreeable.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

I'm entering in on this. This is better than the average character discussions;

That just means you have to beat people by outwitting them rather than spending hours practicing dash-winkling and whatever-canceling. Is that really a problem?

To casuals? No. It isn't a problem, however as you stated: Smash is everyone's game. Sakurai is a fan pleaser and when we're really to the point where the tourney scene depth is "Pick one of the characters with cooler match-ups and just out-wit this person" It isn't good. Clearly look at tripping...Who did sakurai think he was going to appeal with that?

And no, I don't think there should be some supreme way to go all over the screen - It voided a lot of stages in melee from actually being noticed and turned the whole game when I played with people into two stages: Temple and FD

There's no reason to give it a bit more depth rather than Lol tripping and footstool jumping (Whether It's like SF Or some other random fighting game) - A lot of depth could scare off new players and to little depth would scare off the tourney scene.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Bleh... I hate how the two kinds of players are so often put into different camps. I just like the games, period, and I play them both ways despite enjoying the competitive way more.

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

I prefer concise posts like yours, Shino.

It's not about douchebaggery, even though that's very common. It's mostly to do with the fact that the average player (I'm trying to avoid using the word casual, but basically anyone who doesn't practice ATs or "study up" the mechanics of the game) hates going against someone who clearly spends a good chunk of time trying to master anything and everything they can to give them an advantage to win.

Or basically, "regular players" hate going against "meta-game players." That might be a better way of putting it.

Keep in mind that there's nothing wrong with the meta-game and those who favor it, it's just that playing against them is a total buzzkill if you're not into that whole thing. It's something you really have to see from the perspective of the regular player to understand (which isn't too hard since nobody can be meta in every game out there).


Anyway, the whole point was that with Melee, it wasn't that big a deal since Smash wasn't as huge then and there was no online play. It's pretty mainstream at this point and we're online now, so it's best to maintain that whole "everyone's game" aspect. It's not as bad as some people make it out to be (unless you REALLY can't stand Brawl, in which case yeah, you're gonna hate SSB4 too, sorry).

As for the chart, it's all on the Nintendo Channel. There's a paragraph on that page that should explain everything.


@Kuma: I spent this time responding to Shino because he's actually trying to understand this instead of swimming in Egyptian rivers and whatnot. Your post is full of could be, should be, and probably. Nothing you've posted so far suggests you're actually familiar with people or sales or anything we've discussed.

By the way, when I say "change your entire perspective," I mean exactly that. Means months of reading for you and months of writing for me. Even if you were totally down for that, I don't have the time.

I understand that Meta-players would kill regulars online, but instead of stripping away what can make a an appealing game to both sides, why not just use an online leaderboard/regulation system. This way you only have to face buzzkills rarely and/or as they climb ranks to get out of regular player territory and into the meta-player

Also, by the way of sales (one of your most concrete arguemnts) you have to take into consideration the large chunk of the games that were purchesed in the first few release months (I know it is still probably smaller in size compared to the overall sales) when everyone who bought it was pumped because they wanted a game similar to melee.

 

[n88]

Also, by the way of sales (one of your most concrete arguemnts) you have to take into consideration the large chunk of the games that were purchesed in the first few release months (I know it is still probably smaller in size compared to the overall sales) when everyone who bought it was pumped because they wanted a game similar to melee.

This isn't really on the current topic, but I always laugh at Brawl reviews, because negative reviews for Brawl always seem to fall under two categories:

"I wanted something totally different, and this is Melee 2.0!"
or
"I wanted Melee 2.0, and this is something totally different!"

I agree w/Shino on the Rankings system. Unfortunately, Sakurai has expressed negative opiions of this. But hey, Sakurai's not the only guy who works on the game.

 

[Big-Cat]

I agree w/Shino on the Rankings system. Unfortunately, Sakurai has expressed negative opiions of this. But hey, Sakurai's not the only guy who works on the game.

Let's just hope next time that he can persuaded.

Looking at the excerpt from the interview regarding this: I think Sakurai is really just concerned about people losing confidence when they see the rankings.

The problem with a ranking system is that it's more like a grind seen in RPGs. You can have people who are excellent players but are near the bottom because they don't play ranked matches all that muc. Nonetheless, it's an excellent addition along with Player Matches where players just play against each other for as much as they want, with no losses, only gains.

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

Well seeing as how Toise places a lot of Focus on sales, I was simply pointing out that the concept in itself, regarding brawl specifically (And to an extent any sequal title), holds less credibility than if it was a stand alone title.

 

[BBQTV]

i like the footstool sakurai did a smart move here but triping wtf who did he think would be [ha lol he fellz overs lololol] also i think this should be the last time triping is mentioned cause we all know we want this gone

 

[BBQTV]

i have asked regular players why they dont like brawl and they said they didn't like because of the exclusion of certain characters [you know the ones ] also because they nerfed sheik

 

[Big-Cat]

I was about to ask if the footstool jump has ever been useful for anyone. However, I decided to check Youtube, and lo and behold, there was a video about combos using it. Guess I never noticed it enough to do something like that.

BBQTV, I enjoy your input and all, but please refrain from double posting; just edit whatever you want to add into your first post.

 

[BG3]

Ignore this. Please look at the next post.

 

[BG3]

Who gives a crap about what casual gamers think? They'll buy next Smash regardless of it being deep or not, just like they'll buy the next WiiSports, Guitar Hero or shovelware trash like Carnival Games. Why not have a hidden layer of depth just like 64/Melee so both sides can be satisfied?

And again, this can be achieved by adding a few lines into the game's code (as I mentioned earlier) and a better online system. Nintendo, the WFC in its present state sucks ***. Might as well seize the opportunity to step your game up. Here are four easy steps to make SSB4 fun for both communities:

1. Take Melee's engine as a base and tweak the speed a bit so the casuals are not overwhelmed (even though they seem to have no problem at all with Guitar Hero's faster solos).

2. Greatly reduce lag on all aerials so L-canceling is no longer necessary. That way a casual can potentially combo as well as a pro just by learning to time his attacks well enough, and doesn't have to waste time on an advanced technique.

3. Wavedashing is not horribly game breaking unless you're Fox or Falco. It's mainly used for movement, spacing and mindgames. Why not add an official movement technique with an easy input that has the same benefits?

4. Finally, an online filtering system. Set your match preference to "Casual" if you can't bear getting crushed by a serious player and you're good. As time passes, some casuals may want a more rewarding Smash experience and start exploring the "Pro" servers. I feel that the competitive Smash community is very welcoming to newbies that are trying to get better at the game. There could even be a few tutorials in the game to ease that transition. Don't like what you see? Go back to the "Casual" zone. You'll have no problem finding players that share your preference since a big majority of people that buy Smash games are casuals anyway.

Well done. This is a great idea. I think it would really help the Casuals and Competitive players have some sort of compromise. What does everyone think of it?

 

[n88]

@BG3

Are you aware that the bolded text in that quote (If read from left to right) reads: "Meele sucks ***."?


EDIT: Nevermind, the page was glitching on me.


But, seriously, I would rather that the Brawl engine was changed, as opposed to re-using the Melee engine. It can be done, as evidenced by Brawl+.

 

[Big-Cat]

I'd prefer that a new engine is used.

Again, regarding Snakeye's post, I'm all for it, but I still want to see more use of specials and tilts.

 

[BBQTV]

I was about to ask if the footstool jump has ever been useful for anyone. However, I decided to check Youtube, and lo and behold, there was a video about combos using it. Guess I never noticed it enough to do something like that.

BBQTV, I enjoy your input and all, but please refrain from double posting; just edit whatever you want to add into your first post.

oh yeah footstool is awesome it really makes or break you sometimes

also i believe editing post dont bump a thread so i could edit and it might get ignored

 

[Big-Cat]

You don't have to worry about bumping the thread. It's already stickeyed at the top.

 

[BBQTV]

kuma what do you what of this new engine.you say you want more use of titlt and special but its used a lot in my opinion and explain this engine you want more

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

It's explained a few pages back, I believe somewhere around 1807, look there.

 

[AssaultFalcon]

I would like to see a character creation mode that lets you make new ones and edit existing ones., seems complicated, but just replace all of those useless trophies with moves you can use on your character.Every trophy(move) would cost pts. This is where the nametags come in. Thered be a system to earn points on your nametag and spend them on your character, and each character would only be able to earn a ceratin number of points so their movesets wouldn't be too broken. you'd be able to modify things like landing lag, gravity, speed, floatiness, but only to a certain degree. The moves would come in smash attacks, special attacks, and misc attacksattacks that don't really do considerable damage but have another useful effect (like using air or water). each character get an unlockable 2nd final smash. It'd be amazing. I could go on but i want to talk about the stage builder.
Be able to use a background from any other other stage(green greens, knoga jungle, final destination,etc) It'd be amazing, basically

Sometime i wish i was a programmer, id be rich already!

 

[Big-Cat]

kuma what do you what of this new engine.you say you want more use of titlt and special but its used a lot in my opinion and explain this engine you want more

Overall, what I want is similar to Snakeyes' desires, but mine has some added stuff into it.

I would not use Melee as a base, but rather somewhere inbetween Brawl and Melee in terms of gravity and speed, but nonetheless has hitstun.

With hitstun in, I'd get rid of stale moves and replace it with combo scaling. Combo scaling involves how much damage you deal in a combo. The first 2 attacks will hit for full damage, but all sequential moves will decrease in power and knockback by 10%. So, for the sake of worst case scenario, a person manages to use a 10% attack 10 times in a row. At most he can only deal 65%. This allows for closer matches.

After this, I would put in what can be called classic canceling. In case you missed it earlier:

You're close. You have to put in the input just as the move hits. If you're successful, the first move has no ending lag and you immediately go into the special and the move is unblockable.

Again, I'll mention Viper again. You have to use her crouching medium kick on the opponent. While the attack hits, you have to immediately do the input for the Thunder Knuckle. During this time, Viper does not retract her leg AKA no ending lag on the first one.

Trust me, this is much easier than it sounds.

Here's a video explanation of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_qPSEhXoZY

Along with that, I'd like to see a super meter added in. Of course, this wouldn't be a straight rip from other fighters. Rather, it would have to be adjusted for Smash.
With this meter, you have the option to use part of your meter to perform stronger versions of your specials and these specials will sometimes have different properties than their normal counterparts (ie. Mario's Super UpB can glide afterwards with his cape). If you decide to save up on your meter, you have the option to use your Final Smash which would be rebalanced big time.

 

[BBQTV]

this does sound to bad but the meter can be abused by certain characters like you know the ones

EDIT:it sounds like brawl+

 

[Big-Cat]

this does sound to bad but the meter can be abused by certain characters like you know the ones

EDIT:it sounds like brawl+

Which is why with the new system, characters would have to balanced so as to include that as factor as well.

Now, how would you want the super specials and final smashes to be released? I was thinking that one of the jump buttons could be the trigger for the super specials, and one of the shield buttons would be for the final smash. I was originally thinking A+B for the specials, but that doesn't seem to received all to well.

With this in mind, here's what we have for controls:

A: Normal Attacks and Smash Attacks
B: Special Attacks
X (Or Y): Super Special Attacks
Y (Or X): Jump
L: Shield/Air Dodging
R: Final Smash Attack

This is just the essential buttons. I'm not going to go into C-Sticking, and that's assuming it'll be around next game.

 

[BBQTV]

i mest up my post i ment to say it sounds fine but the meter might be abused and maybe use the back left button could maybe be used

this belongs on the other page

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StopHavingFunGuys

 

[Big-Cat]

i mest up my post i ment to say it sounds fine but the meter might be abused and maybe use the back left button could maybe be used

this belongs on the other page

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StopHavingFunGuys

The back left button?

As for the TV Tropes link, what exactly is that pertaining to in here?

 

[BBQTV]

bakw left button the one you dont use its a sheild but people use the right one

and i asid it belongs on the other page

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

Which is why with the new system, characters would have to balanced so as to include that as factor as well.

Now, how would you want the super specials and final smashes to be released? I was thinking that one of the jump buttons could be the trigger for the super specials, and one of the shield buttons would be for the final smash. I was originally thinking A+B for the specials, but that doesn't seem to received all to well.

With this in mind, here's what we have for controls:

A: Normal Attacks and Smash AttacksAgreed
B: Special Attacks Agreed
X (Or Y): Super Special Attacks Agreed, but allow custimization here between the two
Y (Or X): Jump
L: Shield/Air Dodging Preferabbly I use R for shield, so swap this and R. Of course custimzation would be the best option.
R: Final Smash Attack

This is just the essential buttons. I'm not going to go into C-Sticking, and that's assuming it'll be around next game.

Comments bolded.

 

[Big-Cat]

I sorta implied that for X and Y, but I forgot to for L and R. You should indeed have the option to customize the controls for you to play your best.

 

[Arcadenik]

Kuma, we already have the option to customize our controllers in Brawl. Link.

 

[BBQTV]

kuma did you not know?

 

[Big-Cat]

I already knew especially considering that I use a modified Wiimote-Nunchaku setup for Brawl.

 

[BBQTV]

really? the nunchuk thing really scared me cause i thought it would ruin smash thank god they still have GC and now im scared again if their smart it comes back if their dumb it does not

 

[Big-Cat]

I've been concerned about that as well. We don't know for certain whether or not the GC Controllers will return. In theory, they may stick with a modified Classic Controller for GC games, but I'm not sure if that will happen.

 

[BBQTV]

for some reason the classic control seems slippery

 

[Big-Cat]

Are you talking about the controller itself, or playing with it? If its the controller, we may have those added handles as a default standard for the next Classic Controller (assuming they keep the wiimote controller) that resembles a 360 Controller.

 

[BBQTV]

im mean playing with it and it just hit me the wiimote may not come back

 

[Big-Cat]

The wiimote itself? Probably not. Rather, I think we'll see an evolved form of it. That reminds me, maybe we'll see the classic controller added with each Wii2 since so many games support it.

 

[BBQTV]

yeah like theirs no going back nintendo changed things now this sensor thing will never leave and how could they update this