I really hope the Wii2 supports Gamecube controllers. All I use is the Gamecube controller when playing Brawl. If it doesn't return then hopefully Nintendo will make a new controller almost like the GCN controller. It won't be the main controller for the Wii2 of course the main controller for the Wii2 could be an improved version of the Wii Remote. Oh! Adding 6 player instead of 4 wouldn't hurt!
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[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!
- Thread starter SamuraiPanda
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Neo Exdeath
Smash Ace
For the sake of innovation.
BBQTV
Smash Master
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- 4,000
well it actually it might hurt
Neo Exdeath
Smash Ace
True, but it would be more fun.
Why do you say that? I think the Wii2 could handle 6 players. I'm sure 6 players wouldn't make SSB4 or any future game for the Wii2 laggy.
Big-Cat
Challenge accepted.
We can't think of this solely in regards to Smash. Imagine trying to play a game with split-screen multiplayer for six players.
Not every game has to have the option of 6 players. Some games could still have the max of 4. There are games out now that only support 2 players for the Wii even though the max is 4 for the Wii. Nintendo would know which games they make should and should not support 6 players.
ShinoandtheBallonFighter
Smash Ace
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I don't want 6 players, mainly because I enjoy simple 1v1 matches ( I find 4 player too hectic) so or me, six doesn;t sound appealing at all
Neo Exdeath
Smash Ace
You're not thinking of casual players. They make up most of Brawl's players, and they seem to be what Sakurai is aiming at.
Neo, I'm a casual, and I would hate Sakurai advancing the multiplayer to where you can play with any more than four people.
I'm not trying to say that all casuals do, but I just thought I'd point out that not all casuals want the multiplayer to be like that; in fact, I'd bet most either wouldn't care or would dislike it.
I'm not trying to say that all casuals do, but I just thought I'd point out that not all casuals want the multiplayer to be like that; in fact, I'd bet most either wouldn't care or would dislike it.
Big-Cat
Challenge accepted.
Believe it or not. Sakurai is not aiming completely towards them.
Here is an excerpt from the Iwata Asks interview.
http://us.wii.com/iwata_asks/ssbb/vol2_page1.jsp
After reading this, I remembered something Sakurai had said back when the game was announced. He said he wanted the game to be easier for people to play.
For most of us, he seemed to make the game too easy and killing some of the depth, but this suggests that he's anything but purely pro-casual. Teching and Perfect Shielding are examples of this.
Neo Exdeath
Smash Ace
Well, it's not like anyone is forcing you to play 6-way. Plus, in the end, Smash is more of a party game then a fighting game.
Snakeyes
Smash Journeyman
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I really don't feel like an advanced meter management system (EX moves) is the way to go for the next Smash. Even my combo escape thingy might be pushing it a bit. Adding an official and easy to use spacing tool similar to the WD and re-balancing the Final Smash should be enough. Maybe add interrupted Smash attacks for mindgames and that's it.
I'm also beginning to think that stage balance that encourages team play even more should be taken into consideration. SSB is the fighting game that relies the most on your surroundings after all.
I'm also beginning to think that stage balance that encourages team play even more should be taken into consideration. SSB is the fighting game that relies the most on your surroundings after all.
Big-Cat
Challenge accepted.
You're probably right. For the rebalanced final smashes, are we talking about the way it is now or within a super meter?
Snakeyes
Smash Journeyman
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A simple meter (like in ST) is probably easy enough to understand even for the most clueless casual. My preference would be to get rid of the Smash Ball's randomness by using a super meter and the re-balance Final Smashes so they're not game breaking in a 1v1 but still useful enough in a 4 player match.
Also, more emphasis on teamwork! Maybe adding team Final Smashes could be interesting.
Also, more emphasis on teamwork! Maybe adding team Final Smashes could be interesting.
Big-Cat
Challenge accepted.
I think we'd make a good team, Snakeyes. Your last post made me realize that EX specials may indeed be too difficult for even Smash veterans because of the gigantic change in gameplay. If it were to happen, it wouldn't happen until SSB5 or an update of SSB4. So, if we were in charge, we shouldn't be making so many changes.
I'm not so sure if team Final Smashes are a good idea. I'm not sure what you have in mind, but if it involves there being a unique combo final smash, it probably wouldn't be worth it. I don't feel like churning out the math right now, but I think I can safely say that we'd have well over 100 different animations with just the current roster.
Now, what do you think about the Final Smashes being more cinematic like Capt. Falcon's Final Smash.
When you say scrub, it means you have no respect for the low end players, so anything you say will be jaded.
It's impossible to develop for the mid-tier players becuase it's hard to define the middle because it's the middle. Naturally, there will be blending. Also, anything you do will effect one group and probably make both side unhappy. In Brawl was designed for both haves in mind, the low end may still find it too hard or to lose it's charm and the high end will see it as still watered down. It's better to develop for the low end as there are more low end players. Games that try to cater to the high end fail (Street Fighter and other 2D fighting games are an example of this)
The problem is that anything that i8s suggested here is for the high end, not the low end. You still don't get it.
You think casual players are robots. That is wrong. Die hard fans will continue to buy it. "Casual" players are the ones more likely to leave. Competitive players are more likely to stay as they are more fans of the series. Don't believe me? Brawl is "less" competitive then Melee, yet there is still a competitive scene without Brawl+. Heck, Brawl+ proves this as they are sticking with the game (where there are better competitive games out there) and just tweak the game to their liking, meaning they are invested in it.
Casual players are not as invested. This is why they may still be low end players. If the game gets to hard, they may leave. Even if they are fans and the game gets to hard, they'll up and leave (don't believe me? Look at Street Fighter games after 2).
1)brawl still has a competitive scene (meaning I don't see the problem and everyone is just whining)
2)It will only force the series into decline.
Straight up, there are examples that prove that simple games sell. Guess which games become competitive? Not the advance games. The simple games do. The only exception is the 2D fighting games. Every other competitive game is an easier game (look at Starcraft).
Thrillhouse-vh.
Smash Hero
I was wondering where the whole meter and EX move thing got started. As a very big fighting game fan, I am absolutely glad Smash Bros. doesn't use these. That's one of the reasons I love it.
Big-Cat
Challenge accepted.
I see what you mean, but I think it could make the matches more entertaining.
I think Darkstalkers started it.
For the most part, it's used like the term noob.
Here's an article on it.
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html
I know what it is, but I see the term thrown around here to define a lot of different types of players that don't always fall under the "scrub" criteria.pass the syrup
Smash Journeyman
How about keeping it interesting by borrowing some Halo attributes. New map paks. A new downloadable charater every couple of months. Different items. Special trophies for unlikely random things that happen in the game.
New materiel every 2 months or so would keep the game fresh and keep the tournaments interesting. Maybe some customizable "skins" for characters? Alternate outfits, custom color design.
New materiel every 2 months or so would keep the game fresh and keep the tournaments interesting. Maybe some customizable "skins" for characters? Alternate outfits, custom color design.
You missed what he was saying. This is because "casual" is thrown around so much and has no meaning. He means he didn't want to make a game for the "new" audience that Nintendo was aiming. Brawl was designed for current games. I am talking about weak players.
Big-Cat
Challenge accepted.
I wasn't talking to you. Nothing in my post explicitly pertained to "weak" players.
Thrillhouse-vh.
Smash Hero
No, I mean in relation to Smash. I wasn't following the discussions here that much, but I just stepped in to say that adding a Meter here is really unnecessary.
EDIT: Darkstalkers > Street Fighter II
Big-Cat
Challenge accepted.
Oh, that was me here, but the idea itself has been tossed around for quite some time.
Believe it or not. Sakurai is not aiming completely towards them.
You didn't say it. You meant it though.
Big-Cat
Challenge accepted.
No, I was not talking about weaker players. I was talking about casual gamers, the people who do not normally play games, the audience Nintendo is now reaching out to. A weak player is not a casual player necessarily. Their skill levels can be along similar lines, but that's about it. A weak player can be someone new to the competitive scene and everyone starts off that way.
Arcadenik
Smash Legend
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- Arcadenik
A scrub is a player who is handicapped by self-imposed rules that the game knows nothing about.
See? A scrub is someone who makes up rules that actually handicap their gaming skills. That sounds awfully like what a tournament player does in Smash.
They ban items and now they are not good at matches with items turned on. They ban all stages except Final Destination and now they are not good at matches taking place in Mushroomy Kingdom, Pictochat, New Pork City, etc. They ban Meta Knight and Diddy Kong from tournaments because they are not good at countering Mach Tornado and bananas. They hack the game and turn it into Balanced Brawl and Brawl+ because they are not good at regular Brawl.
The casual players are not the scrubs here. They don't ban items and stages and they certainly don't hack the game and make it easier for them to win matches. They play the game as it is, the way Nintendo made it. The tournament players are the real scrubs here. If the tournament players play to become better players and to win, they would leave the game as is... and improve their skills at matches against any characters with items turned on at any given stages on the official Nintendo version of Brawl.
Big-Cat
Challenge accepted.
This is what I immediately thought of when I read that article, but it's not like the community bans this stuff without reason.
Items are banned because the random factor is too big to keep things fair. Imagine that you have explosive spawn in front of you just as you're about to pull off the finishing move, but you hit it and you're dead. Stages are typically banned because of uncontrollable stage hazards and some characters have massive advantages on some of those stages.
Oh, and Meta and Diddy haven't been banned.
Arcadenik
Smash Legend
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- Arcadenik
If you are performing a finishing move on an opponent (which would mean you are right in front of the opponent) and a Bob-omb suddenly appears in front of you (which would also mean it is in front of your opponent) and you hit it, both of you are dead. Seriously, stop thinking about "me, me, me" when that bomb goes off on you. That bomb went off on your opponent, too.
Also, just because some characters benefit on certain stages does not mean you have to ban them. If you use a character who is on the disadvantage, you adapt and work around the disadvantages. That is what good players do - learn from their mistakes and adapt themselves to whatever the game throws at you. Scrubs remove the random factor because they are not good at dealing with surprises so they make the game easier for them to win.
Also, just because some characters benefit on certain stages does not mean you have to ban them. If you use a character who is on the disadvantage, you adapt and work around the disadvantages. That is what good players do - learn from their mistakes and adapt themselves to whatever the game throws at you. Scrubs remove the random factor because they are not good at dealing with surprises so they make the game easier for them to win.
Big-Cat
Challenge accepted.
Your first scenario CAN involve just you. Imagine you're Samus firing your Charge Beam and BAM you're dead because it appeared just as you fired. The same situation can happen when you're losing.
Look, I'm supposed to be fighting the opponent, not the stage. I should be working around the disadvantages in the matchups, not the ones from the stages.The only random factor that should be in any competitive game is what you're opponent is going to do. No outside forces should be involved.
ShinoandtheBallonFighter
Smash Ace
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First off Faster characters already have an advantage with items on. If you don't understand what I mean, I will elaborate.
As for the stage thing. How do I avoid An infinite standing Chain Grab on Shadow Moses from DDD (and don't say casuals would never do this, It's not hard, anyone can do it), where does my skill come in here? Am I suppossed to never get near him and "scrub"ify (purposley handicapping my skill in order to, inthis case, not get chaingrabbed) myself in order to win. I would have to limit any and all approaches, camp, and stall until DDD gets tired of waiting and perfect shielding.
The advantages certain characters have on a stage is more that "be better" some are downright disastourous. And why should i have to learn how to counter characters on their stages (which would inadvertantly force me to use other characters, often whom I don't want to).
I want to use Bowser, but I am going to Shadow Moses against DDD. I would have to switch to Falco, Pit, Link, etc. to not get completely destroyed. But I want to use Bowser. If I were on a regular tourney legel stage, this wouldn't happen, but instead anything I do is countered by DDD and his ridiculous grab rabge.
This stage application works on any of the banned stages with walls. DDD can beat any opponent in Delfino, Shadow Moses, Corneria (which may be counterpick), Hyrule Temple, etc. All of which are banned or counterpick because of DDD's insanely unbeatable advantage (and the only way to beat it is to become a scrub and go through stupidly elaborate measures to not get grabbed)
/Johning
Arcadenik
Smash Legend
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- Arcadenik
Seriously, read your second paragraph. That sounds like scrub talk. You are making up rules Brawl knows nothing about. You are dictating what should be and what should not be in the game. This is not Street Fighter where the only random factor is what your opponent does. This is Super Smash Bros. where the random factors are what your opponent does, where items appear, and what the stage does.
Really! Just because King Dedede can do infinite grabs on Shadow Moses Island and you don't know how to counter this does not mean you have to ban the stage. That only shows that you don't want to learn and improve yourself against that situation in order to win, and thus you are handicapping yourself.
So basically you don't want to learn how to improve your skills with any given character on any given stage just as long as you can win.
And because of this, you decide not to learn how to improve your skills with Bowser against King Dedede on Shadow Moses Island. Just because you suck at being Bowser when faced against King Dedede on Shadow Moses Island does not mean you have to ban the stage. That is exactly what a sore loser does. They make excuses why they lost the match, usually pointing out unfavorable conditions or other petty issues. It is like blaming the sun for being in your eyes when you strike out and lost the baseball game - doesn't mean the sun have to be banned from baseball.
You last sentence sums it up. The competitive players are the real scrubs, not the casual gamers.
Note: I'm not on any true side here and just decided to jump in on this again now
Banning a stage in tournaments isn't bad; Take for instance Spear Pillar - You're at a low percentage while your opponent is at 200%, you try to recover and you end up recovering the wrong way too late because the stage flips - On certain stages luck WILL Have some factor (IE which phases of delfino are next, screwing up recovery while cars come in on port town, etc) But those luck factors shouldn't be a gigantic part of the match. "Competitive" (Tourney-Goers and the like) gamers have a right to ban certain stages and a right to ban items - Casual gamers have a right to play however they like. Heck, any player has any right to how they want to play.
Also just a note but delfino moves, thus making wallgrabs all the time not possible, and Corneria is not a CP Stage.
No; Scrubs at the competitive gamers who get on there high-horse. If we were to do what you said, that'd be learning over 1.5k Match-ups.
Banning a stage in tournaments isn't bad; Take for instance Spear Pillar - You're at a low percentage while your opponent is at 200%, you try to recover and you end up recovering the wrong way too late because the stage flips - On certain stages luck WILL Have some factor (IE which phases of delfino are next, screwing up recovery while cars come in on port town, etc) But those luck factors shouldn't be a gigantic part of the match. "Competitive" (Tourney-Goers and the like) gamers have a right to ban certain stages and a right to ban items - Casual gamers have a right to play however they like. Heck, any player has any right to how they want to play.
Also just a note but delfino moves, thus making wallgrabs all the time not possible, and Corneria is not a CP Stage.
Scufo
Smash Apprentice
There's a reason the game gives you the option to turn off items and change which stages will come up when choosing random.
It's so different people can play the game the way it suits them.
Tournament players use universally-agreed-upon rulesets that place the emphasis on skill, not luck. Who's to say that doing so is any less valid than playing with all items on High on Spear Pillar?
It's so different people can play the game the way it suits them.
Tournament players use universally-agreed-upon rulesets that place the emphasis on skill, not luck. Who's to say that doing so is any less valid than playing with all items on High on Spear Pillar?
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