[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[Big-Cat]

Thank You, Scufo.

Since it's within the realms of the games intention, competitive players for the most part aren't scrubs. It'd be nice if the next game include a Stage Hazard switch so we can have more diversity in stages for tournaments.

 

[SmashChu]

First off Faster characters already have an advantage with items on. If you don't understand what I mean, I will elaborate.

Not nessisarily as

1. Items can appear anywhere
2. More then two players can play

It works like that in theory.

As for the stage thing. How do I avoid An infinite standing Chain Grab on Shadow Moses from DDD (and don't say casuals would never do this, It's not hard, anyone can do it), where does my skill come in here? Am I suppossed to never get near him and "scrub"ify (purposley handicapping my skill in order to, inthis case, not get chaingrabbed) myself in order to win. I would have to limit any and all approaches, camp, and stall until DDD gets tired of waiting and perfect shielding.

Only losers do that anyway. Casual players are probably not going to do this as it will be unfair (and most players don't know about chain grabbing).

The advantages certain characters have on a stage is more that "be better" some are downright disastourous. And why should i have to learn how to counter characters on their stages (which would inadvertantly force me to use other characters, often whom I don't want to).

It's all how you play really. Some stages will hurt characters, but you oppenent has to be using that to their advantage or it's worthless.

I want to use Bowser, but I am going to Shadow Moses against DDD. I would have to switch to Falco, Pit, Link, etc. to not get completely destroyed. But I want to use Bowser. If I were on a regular tourney legel stage, this wouldn't happen, but instead anything I do is countered by DDD and his ridiculous grab rabge.

Again, only losers do that. Heck, I surprised they don't bad that (it's far worse then Meta-Knight).

This stage application works on any of the banned stages with walls. DDD can beat any opponent in Delfino, Shadow Moses, Corneria (which may be counterpick), Hyrule Temple, etc. All of which are banned or counterpick because of DDD's insanely unbeatable advantage (and the only way to beat it is to become a scrub and go through stupidly elaborate measures to not get grabbed)

Yet it never occured to anyone to bad that? Arcadenik would be right as you could tell players "Hey, stop being a loser and play like a man." but, instead, they try to ban Meta-Knight.

There is a big reason why the Smash community is laughed at by everyone. This is part of it.

/Johning[/QUOTE]

 

[Scufo]

"Only losers do that anyway" isn't a valid argument.

There exists a broken tactic on stages with walls. Get grabbed by DDD, and you've just lost a stock. In a competitive environment, people will exploit that advantage, even if it's not widely known or used in casual play. The two playerbases are different, and therefore use different rulesets.

The fact is, the competitive ruleset makes for a more even playing field, where elements of luck are minimized and broken tactics are outlawed. Why people feel the need to pounce on competitive players and denounce their style of playing, I have no idea.

 

[n88]

@SmashChu

It's a lot easier to ban a stage from a tournament than it is "losers". Telling someone that they're not playing right is not a practical solution, because there's nothing banning ***holes from attending tournaments, either.

As Scufo said, competitive players attempt to create a system in which the predominant factor to winning matches is skill, rather than infinites/luck, because that's the way they like to play.

 

[Big-Cat]

The fact is, the competitive ruleset makes for a more even playing field, where elements of luck are minimized and broken tactics are outlawed. Why people feel the need to pounce on competitive players and denounce their style of playing, I have no idea.

By people, do you mean noncompetitive players or players of other fighting games?

 

[Thrillhouse-vh.]

Why people feel the need to pounce on competitive players and denounce their style of playing, I have no idea.

The same thing should apply to competitive gamers giving **** to non-competitive gamers, you know, like yelling "Why didnt you use Rest from that throw? You suck as Jigglypuff." while they're beating on them. Just play the game.

Nerd on Nerd anger, while hilarious, should be stopped.

 

[SmashChu]

There exists a broken tactic on stages with walls. Get grabbed by DDD, and you've just lost a stock. In a competitive environment, people will exploit that advantage, even if it's not widely known or used in casual play. The two playerbases are different, and therefore use different rulesets.

So, ban it. I've solved the problem.

The fact is, the competitive ruleset makes for a more even playing field, where elements of luck are minimized and broken tactics are outlawed. Why people feel the need to pounce on competitive players and denounce their style of playing, I have no idea.

You complain that DDD's chain grab makes you lose a stock and prevents most stages from being playable. Is that not a broken tactic. Yet, you allow it. Planking is also a broken tactic. The game is more broken in competitive play, not less.

The reason competitive Smash is a laughing stock is how people act. What I wrote is how everyone else feels. Here is why the competitive Smash community is laughed at

1. Most people do not see Smash as a serious game. To many, it's like having Mario Party tournaments
2. The attitude of competitive Smash players is immature. Too many act like man children
3. They ban too many things. In other fighting games, it is not customary to ban something "just because" and Smash players ban everything. Trying to ban Meta-Knight, when he is no where near Akuma in SF2, only adds to the community's ridiculous nature
4. The community is playing the game very different then everyone else
5. The competitive community tries to tell others they are wrong and this is how it should be done. They will not except other ways of playing as legitimate (but are hypocrites as they will complain when people tell them not to play that way)
6. The mentality has been to ban everything but the tactics. Fox made most stages in Melee unplayable, and DDD does in Brawl. Everyone will tell you to ban the tactic, but they never do.
7. They have no respect for other players. They see everyone else as a scrub.

@SmashChu

It's a lot easier to ban a stage from a tournament than it is "losers". Telling someone that they're not playing right is not a practical solution, because there's nothing banning ***holes from attending tournaments, either.

You don't ban the player. You ban the tactic. This is never discussed and everyone will complain about how the game is broken.

As Scufo said, competitive players attempt to create a system in which the predominant factor to winning matches is skill, rather than infinites/luck, because that's the way they like to play.

Yet competitive players play a watered down game. Items require a lot of skill despite popular belief. Every time I play a competitive player, I win 100% of the time with items on. They don't know what they are doing and I trounce them. They also don't know how to fight on many stages and I trounce them again. Wanna have fun? Play a competitive player with items on and enjoy the easy win.

 

[Big-Cat]

I'm going to go ahead and take your word on those reasons, Smashchu. The biggest issue the competitive community has is maturity which coincidentally relates to how old the community is. The second one is elitism and, depending on you look at it, "scrubiness."

I see this stuff at SRK, but it's nowhere as bad. In fact, I have seen some of instances of the above two, but it's well controlled.

As for Smash not being a serious game, I don't blame people viewing that superficially. Nintendo isn't exactly knowing for developing "mature" games.

I still that think that we need a stage hazard switch. A number of stages in Brawl alone could be made "tourney legal."

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

@Arcadenik
There is no way to beat DDD's standing CG, his grab range beats out 90% of Bowser's attacks and being chaingrabbed is not fun, a casual player will agree that it is not fun too, not just competitives. The stag eis banned because There is no way to avoid it. We do not force things like banned stages upon casuals because they don't need rules like this enforced. And are you saying because someone plays with items on any stage, they won't chaingrab? Casuals are not the saintly do-gooders you make them out to be.

If a stage hurts a character to the point where it isn;t fun getting *****, why should I want to play there?

And I will leanr how to improve on my character, on stages that are fair to the combatants, so that I can have fun playing.

@smashchu
If one item appears on, let's say final destination, and both fighters are equal distance from it (or all four are basically equal distance from it) Fox or Sonic would get to it faster than Ganondorf or Bowser. The placement might be random, but from a mathematical standpoint, faster characters can cove rmore of the stage in any given interval.

And fine, we're loser, we're laughed at by the community, but if we played the "casual" way everyone would laugh just as much.

The whole casuals are godly saints thing applies here too. just because you play wherever and use whoever, does not make any given player less of douche.

You guys break us up into two rival factions in which competetives are ugly monsters bent on taking the fun out of the game, and casuals are saints bent of loving the game in it's purest from.

It's not that black and white.

Though I will give you that the competetive people who act in the way you describe are A-holes, I don't like them either. I don't tell people how to play the game, but I enjoy playing with a mostly competetive ruleset, so what am I? Am I a scrub?

 

[n88]

So, ban it. I've solved the problem.

1. Most people do not see Smash as a serious game. To many, it's like having Mario Party tournaments
2. The attitude of competitive Smash players is immature. Too many act like man children
3. They ban too many things. In other fighting games, it is not customary to ban something "just because" and Smash players ban everything. Trying to ban Meta-Knight, when he is no where near Akuma in SF2, only adds to the community's ridiculous nature
4. The community is playing the game very different then everyone else
5. The competitive community tries to tell others they are wrong and this is how it should be done. They will not except other ways of playing as legitimate (but are hypocrites as they will complain when people tell them not to play that way)
6. The mentality has been to ban everything but the tactics. Fox made most stages in Melee unplayable, and DDD does in Brawl. Everyone will tell you to ban the tactic, but they never do.
7. They have no respect for other players. They see everyone else as a scrub.

Most of these stem from the fact that Smash is far more dynamic than other games. More stuff is banned because there's way more stuff. Try playing your average fighting game. How many Bob-ombs drop from the sky to hit you when you're about to attack? How many Hammers randomly spawn in front of you? I'm gonna go out ona limb here and guess zero.

As for banning tactics, how is that supposed to work? Are you gonna have somebody supervising each match to make sure nobody cheats?

If the last one is directed at me, please keep in mind that I have never attended a tournament in my life, and probably never will.

 

[Scufo]

So, ban it. I've solved the problem.


You complain that DDD's chain grab makes you lose a stock and prevents most stages from being playable. Is that not a broken tactic. Yet, you allow it. Planking is also a broken tactic. The game is more broken in competitive play, not less.

The reason competitive Smash is a laughing stock is how people act. What I wrote is how everyone else feels. Here is why the competitive Smash community is laughed at

1. Most people do not see Smash as a serious game. To many, it's like having Mario Party tournaments
2. The attitude of competitive Smash players is immature. Too many act like man children
3. They ban too many things. In other fighting games, it is not customary to ban something "just because" and Smash players ban everything. Trying to ban Meta-Knight, when he is no where near Akuma in SF2, only adds to the community's ridiculous nature
4. The community is playing the game very different then everyone else
5. The competitive community tries to tell others they are wrong and this is how it should be done. They will not except other ways of playing as legitimate (but are hypocrites as they will complain when people tell them not to play that way)
6. The mentality has been to ban everything but the tactics. Fox made most stages in Melee unplayable, and DDD does in Brawl. Everyone will tell you to ban the tactic, but they never do.
7. They have no respect for other players. They see everyone else as a scrub.

You don't ban the player. You ban the tactic. This is never discussed and everyone will complain about how the game is broken.


Yet competitive players play a watered down game. Items require a lot of skill despite popular belief. Every time I play a competitive player, I win 100% of the time with items on. They don't know what they are doing and I trounce them. They also don't know how to fight on many stages and I trounce them again. Wanna have fun? Play a competitive player with items on and enjoy the easy win.

I'm not sure who most of this is directed towards. Who here is telling you not to play the game the way you like? From where I'm sitting, it sounds more like YOU'RE telling US how to play the game.

There exists a Smash community that has developed a well thought-out ruleset that everyone within the community adheres to and plays under. Who are you to barge in and tell us we're wrong?

Yes, elitism and "scrubiness" exists within the Smash community. But those things pretty much exist within every community. You can't denounce a style of playing, which many thousands of people adhere to, purely on that basis.

You want to play with items on? Nothing's stopping you. But don't whine when the competitive community as a whole disagrees with you.

 

[lordvaati]

after much searching, I have decided who would be the perfect WTF newcomer in Smash:


http://www.facebook.com/pages/Mike-Jones-StarTropics/201951880135

 

[NeoTLkid]

@Smashchu
I don't remember were I read this but I recall in another thread that somesaid something like "I'd rather have a game revolving around character traits/dynamics than one based on an items traits/dynamics"
(can't remember well)
Also I don't like items on because it turns people into oppertunists that run away until they get an item, You might not play this way but people do, and IT GETS REALLY ANNOYING. Also don't say that playing competively is wrong. I'd prefer playing w/ the knowledge of my character rather than how to use an item. Neither playing style is wrong, it's just based on peoples preferences

 

[Jerome]

Off topic but I feel that if Nintendo makes the smash meter it should ONLY fill up a little bit if u do a perfect sheild, perfect dodge, perfect air dodge, and/or sweet spotting a smash attack. Also it fills up less if your winning.

 

[Big-Cat]

Off topic but I feel that if Nintendo makes the smash meter it should ONLY fill up a little bit if u do a perfect sheild, perfect dodge, perfect air dodge, and/or sweet spotting a smash attack. Also it fills up less if your winning.

I've discussed the meter idea with a few people about this. ScoobyCafe pointed out the super meter from Melty Blood.
http://shoryuken.com/wiki/index.php/Melty_Blood:_Act_Cadenza#Magic_Circut

 

[Jerome]

I've discussed the meter idea with a few people about this. ScoobyCafe pointed out the super meter from Melty Blood.
http://shoryuken.com/wiki/index.php/Melty_Blood:_Act_Cadenza#Magic_Circut

LOL! Ok then I just hate the smash ball....I would like it more if any attack would braek it in ONE hit! I always hit about 3 times but it wont break!

 

[Thrillhouse-vh.]

after much searching, I have decided who would be the perfect WTF newcomer in Smash:


http://www.facebook.com/pages/Mike-Jones-StarTropics/201951880135

Mike Jones > Your most wanted character

 

[Big-Cat]

LOL! Ok then I just hate the smash ball....I would like it more if any attack would braek it in ONE hit! I always hit about 3 times but it wont break!

What's so funny?

 

[Hero Dude]

Perhaps I should leave this thread. There's nowhere else on this board where I can discuss gameplay in the sequel because I'll be forced back here.

Besides, I hope you are aware that there are more aspects to improve than just characters. You can have a 100 character roster, but it doesn't make a difference if the gameplay sucks.

Characters are all I WANT to discuss. I don't mind discussing other things.

Sorry its late......been in the hospital.

 

[Big-Cat]

Characters are all I WANT to discuss. I don't mind discussing other things.

Sorry its late......been in the hospital.

You okay? What happened?

Anyway, yeah you are late, by four days.

 

[Snakeyes]

I agree that banning characters and/or stages is dumb (hacking the game is even worse), but don't say playing without items is playing the wrong way. Item switch is there for a reason.

 

[BBQTV]

this thread is turning into the MK poll

 

[Clownbot]

this thread is turning into the MK poll

Elaborate.

 

[SmashChu]

Most of these stem from the fact that Smash is far more dynamic than other games. More stuff is banned because there's way more stuff. Try playing your average fighting game. How many Bob-ombs drop from the sky to hit you when you're about to attack? How many Hammers randomly spawn in front of you? I'm gonna go out ona limb here and guess zero.

That's still how others see it. By taking out elements, you lower the amount of skill needed to win. This is why I can stomp people who play tournaments. They don't know the stage. They don't know the items. They also wont know what to do with items on.

As for banning tactics, how is that supposed to work? Are you gonna have somebody supervising each match to make sure nobody cheats?

Pretty much. People watch matches anyway, and you have another player.

If the last one is directed at me, please keep in mind that I have never attended a tournament in my life, and probably never will.

It's not dirrected at you. But it is something they do that have earned them this reputation.

I'm not sure who most of this is directed towards. Who here is telling you not to play the game the way you like? From where I'm sitting, it sounds more like YOU'RE telling US how to play the game.

You must be new. Competitive players do this all the time. This thread is less of it because it is geared towards fans of the game who want to see another one.

 

[Snakeyes]

Elaborate.

It was a poll about adding Mortal Kombat characters into the game.

 

[Big-Cat]

You must be new. Competitive players do this all the time. This thread is less of it because it is geared towards fans of the game who want to see another one.

Whoa whoa whoa. Are you saying that competitive players aren't fans?

 

[Scufo]

You must be new. Competitive players do this all the time. This thread is less of it because it is geared towards fans of the game who want to see another one.

I'm well aware the Smash community has more than its fair share of elitists. I'm just wondering why you're going on about it when it's largely irrelevant to what's being discussed here. Sure, some people are gonna be douchebags. I don't see how that makes the tournament ruleset any less valid.

 

[Jerome]

I hated that wavedashing was removed in brawl hopefully they will bring it back. Nintendo should remove the ability to chaingrab in ssb4. Chaingrabing is cheap IMO.

 

[Snakeyes]

Bringing back WDing as we know it would just be dumb.

 

[lordvaati]

I hated that wavedashing was removed in brawl hopefully they will bring it back. Nintendo should remove the ability to chaingrab in ssb4. Chaingrabing is cheap IMO.

wavedashing is not an essential technique for Smash bros. 64 didn't have it, and it was just fine. sure, it helped approaching/retreating, and made characters(Luigi) move around better, but it's not the end all, bee all AT of Smash. all it was really for anyway was to keep the player from falling through the stage.

EDIT: that's the thing. chaingrabbing is grabbing the opponent in the air before their invincibility frames pop up.the only way to fix it would be to make more invincibility frames, which would mess up air attacks. best case is to give D throws lots of knockback, and make the IC's desynch slower.

 

[NeoTLkid]

i prefer the brawl air dodge, but then again I started playing melee this year...
*Edit nvm I forgot
Don't feed the trolls, 0.o

 

[Big-Cat]

We should end this debate. It's going to go on for circles like the character discussions.

Shino, are you ready to post your flamebait post?

 

[NeoTLkid]

it's realy just a matter of personal preference.

 

[Big-Cat]

it's realy just a matter of personal preference.

Exactly, for the most part, there's no right or wrong way to play Smash.

 

[pass the syrup]

Exactly, for the most part, there's no right or wrong way to play Smash.

Except without courage. All you need to play smash is a pure heart and a pinch of destiny.

...

(im sooooo sorry)

 

[NeoTLkid]

*Edit
srry this comment pissed me off so disregard what I said.
*Edit there sorry if this offends anyony ill delete it in about 2 minutes if it does
*Nevermind I'll just delete

 

[Jerome]

Here's some ideas...
1.)Having more than one character being able to grab the ledge.
2.)Also making so that characters drown faster than others and making it so Squirtle can't drown instead of Squirtle drowning after 10 seconds squirtle floats in the spot that he's at. Meaning the only options is to have squrtle jump out of the water or he waits to get spiked.
3.) New feature Tag Team Battle only for 3 to 4 players (3 to 6 players if Wii 2 supports it) example 3 marios versus 3 luigis when u start the match the leaders of the team will only be on the stage. Press a and b to switch to swith to next teamate. If you have 50% damage and u switch to another teamate the teamate wont have your damage but when the teamate switches back to u your damage will not be your partners damage it will be yours meaning u will still have 50% even if your teamate had 100%. Once all oponents from a team is KOd u win.

I know my second idea doesn't sound fair it just seems weird that Squirtle can drown...
Hope I explained 3 good enough...

 

[Thrillhouse-vh.]

I don't think it's weird that Squirtle can drown. I mean, Water-types can be K.O.'d by other Water moves. I think it's weird for more than one character to grab a ledge, I'm pretty sure Sakurai even knew the strategic value in the ledge, I'm sure other people would be able to figure it out. Care to elaborate Tag Team Battle?

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

i am sure its been said before but i would like little mac in the next smash game. i think he should of been in this one before some characters who made it. I'm looking at you pit,rob(who i main), lucario, sonic, snake(sort of but since the guy that made the metal gear games begged for him to be in the game i am ok with him), both ddd and mk (one or the other but both before mac not cool), lucas (release mother 3 in the US and this will change), ic's (sort of ok with them b/c they were in melee but mac had more games then them), sure there are more but thats enough for now.

Also more hit stun so you can combo.

and no broken characters I'm looking at you mk, snake(sort of he is not super broken)

Ganondorf with a move set that makes sense. why does he not have a energy ball he throws one at you in every game

thats all i can think of right now

 

[Clownbot]

SmashChu, please don't generalize. Most of the people here at SWF are fine with people playing however they want, competitive or not competitive.

(This is my first and last comment regarding the issue, unless I find something else in a reply to this I wanna jump on )