[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[Hero Dude]

I like Tingle. I really do. There I said it.
Before I end this, just for personal reasons, say if you want Tingle or not. Nay or Yay.
I would like Urban champion or Sukapon, Urban more though.
That brings up another topic! What new Retro rep would you like to see/is most likely?

lol @ Jonathon A.K.A. Shadowfax: They won't take out Wario.

Plus, don't double post.

 

[SshadowfaxX019]

k just so u kno idk who sukapon and urban champion r i think i kno who tingle is but im not sure

 

[Pieman0920]

I was just thinking that the game took it from the anime, but as stated I don't know much about F-Zero, so If anyone's to answer falcon's moveset origin's in this thread, It's toise.

Spoiler

I know more than Toise about F-Zero :embarrass

Its not really a matter who knows more here, its a matter of clera facts. The F-Zero anime's first episode didn't air until after GX came in Japan. Captain Falcon's infamous Falcon Punch in the anime didn't happen until the final episode, which was ep 52, aka one year later. All of this was in 2003-2004. Now I remind you that the original Smash Bros came out several years before this, which was the game that introduced the Falcon Punch. In reality, no F-Zero game has actually shown the Falcon Punch, and only GX even mentioned it. Thus, the Falcon Punch was made up completely for Smash Bros, and just later transfered over to both canons.

Incidently, Captain Falcon's moveset was most likely based on the original fighters that were programed into the prototype game that eventually became Smash. Look at the Iwata Asks interview with Sakurai and you can see some of these beta models and how they look a lot like Falcon.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Tingle stuff

I always thought you weren't the type to miss the point and run off with tangents over analogies. Let me sum up:

** Yes, North Americans (yes, Canada and Latin America too) are predispositioned to hate Tingle. It's called culture clash. The evidence for it is everywhere. Even Nintendo agrees that this is the case and they've acted on that by keeping him out of the region. No other character in Nintendo history has had that happen to them.
** North American is very important since it usually manages to pull over 50% of the sales for both Zelda and Smash. Our tastes and opinions can't be ignored.
** Sakurai is in the business of pleasing fans by adding characters we like or will eventually like. He may be satisfying some Japanese fans (emphasis on some, I'll get to that in a second), but he's doing a great disservice to North Americans. This means adding Tingle is negative gain.


The only rebuttal I'm getting is "just adding Tingle won't hurt sales" You're ignoring the part where a negative is still a negative. Any moderately intelligent director of anything avoids them because guess what, they add up and diminish the overall product in the long run.


Last thing I want to mention: Tingle's popularity in Japan is frequently made out to be amazing, but I'd like to show you something I posted two months ago (updated for 10/16/09):

Donkey Kong Country ---- 3.00m [JP] 9.30m [All]
SMW2: Yoshi's Island --- 1.77m [JP] 4.12m [All]
Wario Land: SML3 ------- 1.59m [JP] 5.19m [All]

Tingle's Rupeeland ----- 0.24m [JP] (N/A) [All]
Balloon Trip of Love --- 0.09m [JP] (N/A) [All] (2 months since release)

Legend of Zelda -------- 1.69m [JP] 6.51m [All]
Adventure of Link ------ 1.61m [JP] 4.38m [All]
Link to the Past ------- 1.16m [JP] 4.61m [All]
Link's Awakening ------- 0.54m [JP] 3.83m [All]
Ocarina of Time -------- 1.46m [JP] 7.60m [All]
Link's Awakening DX ---- 0.51m [JP] 2.22m [All]
Majora's Mask ---------- 0.74m [JP] 3.36m [All]
Oracle of Ages/Seasons - 0.82m [JP] 3.78m [All]
LttP/Four Swords ------- 0.34m [JP] 2.58m [All]
Wind Waker ------------- 0.89m [JP] 4.55m [All]
Four Swords Adventures - 0.13m [JP] (N/A) [All]
Minish Cap ------------- 0.27m [JP] 1.34m [All]
Twilight Princess ------ 0.64m [JP] 6.90m [All]
Crossbow Training ------ 0.28m [JP] 4.01m [All]
Phantom Hourglass ------ 0.95m [JP] 4.54m [All]

Tingle's games are selling worse than almost every Zelda title in Japan. Rupeeland has been out for three years and the only game it managed to outdo was Four Swords Adventures. Balloon Trip of Love has been out for two months and it's off to a worse start than Rupeeland. And this is on the DS, the most popular system on the market. It's even worse when you compare him to the initial spinoff titles for DK, Yoshi, and Wario.

So tell me again, why is it better to add a character hated in one region, meh in another, and something of a niche in his home rather than make him an AT?

Spoiler

Sorry Wizzerd, I was really hoping for Balloon Trip to do better.

Spoiler

Pieman: sounds like fightin' words.

edit: jasdkfjasd charts

 

[Big-Cat]

Didn't I say, "don't prove me wrong"

Actually, I still think Toise's is worse.

EDIT: Not bad ideas, but I don't think G-dorf's gatting quite such a radical make-over. His Side-B is sheer ownage, and needs to stay.

Just give Ganondorf two movesets and make everyone happy. Why are drag0nscythe and I the only ones to reiterate this?

Oh, for Sukapon and the programming thing. I think there's more to this than meets the eye. Remember that they didn't have a lot of time to make Melee. Therefore, there's a possibility that he simply would've taken a certain amount of time to program properly that wasn't within the the constraints.

Anyway, I can't see what's so hard to program. Rayman says hi.

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

I need one question answered before I can agree to Ganon's second moveset (as if I have the power to decide this right?)

Ok, so Ganondorf is a heavyweight. Ike is a heavyweight. People have stated that Black Knight could not get in because he is a sword weilding heavy weight (He won;t get in regardless, but this was the arguement I heard).

What is stopping Sword Ganon from becoming Ike?

P.S If he does get a taunt based moveset, it should be a trident. Just saying.

And hey, for the hell of it, because I keep seeing this arguement, I'll post my defese...again.

The Legend of Zelda chracters are supposed be epitomes of the series rolled into one character - Zelda who never really fights. Link uses the generic weapons he always has (granted they did add the gale effect) and the sword he's had in every game. Ganondorf (counting his appearences as a non-transforming Ganon) has weilded a sword only once, not very important To ganon as a whole huh?

He has dual weilded Kattans, lots of Magic, and Tridents. Current Ganon represnts the Magic (he is an evil WIZARD afterall, but at the same time is physically as powerful as Link (Probably moreso, hence his Smash moveset.) It was copied from Falcon, but they play differently (Look at melee's for how they should play differently). Ganon is represnted by power and magic, and this is his Smash appearence, which suits him well.

Fix the lag of hit moves, not overhaul his entire moveset because it isnt very good (I love Brawl Ganon [though I miss the ease of ****** with melee ganon]).

The only other thing that semi-represnts him weapon-wise is his Trident, which sadly noone ever suggests. If he had to have a weapon based moveset, it should be around the trident, not because we have to many sword weirlders, but because it is more Ganon.

 

[Arcadenik]

@ Kuma... I don't think that was the case. They had ample time to add Sukapon in SSB4 (2 years) but they chose to not add him. Time constraints had nothing to do with it. Maybe programming a limbless character in Smash is not as easy as it is in platforming games.

@ Shino.... the more I play Ganondorf in Brawl, the more I don't think he needs a sword or any weapon. Sakurai is decloning Ganondorf a little bit at a time. Ganondorf's side B and Final Smash is different from Captain Falcon's now. Maybe by SSB4, one of his specials might be changed, hopefully Up B since I love his B and Down B as is. Depending on how Ganondorf is like in Zelda 2010 (if he is in that game), it would affect how Ganondorf is like in SSB4. Hopefully Ganondorf is more youthful than he was in Twilight Princess (it was why Ganondorf's speed was slowed down in Brawl as if he was becoming old) so that way, Ganondorf would gain back some of his Melee speed (I miss ****** with Ganondorf, too).

 

[Wizzerd]

Spoiler

Sorry Wizzerd, I was really hoping for Balloon Trip to do better.

As was I. *buys Balloon Trip over and over again to jack up the sales*

Spoiler

I actually need to import it

@Ganondorf: I don't think the idea for a sword transformation is a great idea, honestly, for some reasons I can elaborate on if anyone wants. In any case, I doubt he's getting a massive decloning, just some new moves like the energy ball and stuff. The sword for new A moves could be nice too but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Cyn]

I need one question answered before I can agree to Ganon's second moveset (as if I have the power to decide this right?)

Ok, so Ganondorf is a heavyweight. Ike is a heavyweight. People have stated that Black Knight could not get in because he is a sword weilding heavy weight (He won;t get in regardless, but this was the arguement I heard).

What is stopping Sword Ganon from becoming Ike?

P.S If he does get a taunt based moveset, it should be a trident. Just saying.

And hey, for the hell of it, because I keep seeing this arguement, I'll post my defese...again.

The Legend of Zelda chracters are supposed be epitomes of the series rolled into one character - Zelda who never really fights. Link uses the generic weapons he always has (granted they did add the gale effect) and the sword he's had in every game. Ganondorf (counting his appearences as a non-transforming Ganon) has weilded a sword only once, not very important To ganon as a whole huh?

He has dual weilded Kattans, lots of Magic, and Tridents. Current Ganon represnts the Magic (he is an evil WIZARD afterall, but at the same time is physically as powerful as Link (Probably moreso, hence his Smash moveset.) It was copied from Falcon, but they play differently (Look at melee's for how they should play differently). Ganon is represnted by power and magic, and this is his Smash appearence, which suits him well.

Fix the lag of hit moves, not overhaul his entire moveset because it isnt very good (I love Brawl Ganon [though I miss the ease of ****** with melee ganon]).

The only other thing that semi-represnts him weapon-wise is his Trident, which sadly noone ever suggests. If he had to have a weapon based moveset, it should be around the trident, not because we have to many sword weirlders, but because it is more Ganon.

I agree, even if he did have a sword that would be kind of boring and played out. The trident makes a lot more sense and it would be unique to him

 

[Hero Dude]

You haven't imported Balloon Trip yet?
You really should. Its better than the first IMO.

NEW TOPIC, since you seem to not have responded to the last one.

If you could have one character in, any that are at least a little likely, who would it be?


Little Mac baby! I should probobly pick some one else though becouse he WILL be in.

 

[Pieman0920]

I'm glad more people are realizing that Ganondorf would likely be better off with a trident. While technically its gameplay mechanics are about the same as a sword would be, its still a nice change in aethetics, and is also a nice throwback to the older games, since he used it a lot back then.

Spoiler

Bring it on, Toise

 

[SshadowfaxX019]

Hero due i agree little mac would be awesome in the game but he will almost absolutley make it in

 

[Thirdkoopa]

The main thing that Sukapon has going against him is that he was turned down... twice and for the exact same reason. Really, I don't understand what the issue is but, then again, I'm not a programmer. As I said in another post, Metaknight and Pit were kept out of Melee due to issues with programming "flying" characters. I think the problem stems from Sukapon lacking any true joints and basically being floating balls but, again, I don't understand why that would be hard to program. Anybody have any thoughts?

Personally, I like the idea but supposedly, even after 8 years, he's still impractical to incorporate into Smash Bros.

Wait; Which two games was he turned down twice? Because If It was brawl then that could be trouble, but multiple characters (PT, MK, Pit, blah etc) have had similar sort of issues and got in at one point.

I mean, they could just add limbs and make them not viable to hit, but that could be far more complicated than we think It is...I still really want it to happen.

If you could have one character in, any that are at least a little likely, who would it be?

Hm...Maybe Claus (Masked Man form), the person I've been argueing about with Toise, Cafe, SmashChu, and multiple other people and even have him as my avatar?

Nope, not him. But considering he's the most likely newcomer for mother then I'd put him at least a little likely, but It's insanely doubtable that the series will get more than two reps on a 45-50 Character roster.

...But It'd be far cooler than 6 pokemon for sure.

 

[Hero Dude]

Why did I know you where gonna say that :D

 

[Fatmanonice]

I always thought you weren't the type to miss the point and run off with tangents over analogies. Let me sum up:

** Yes, North Americans (yes, Canada and Latin America too) are predispositioned to hate Tingle. It's called culture clash. The evidence for it is everywhere. Even Nintendo agrees that this is the case and they've acted on that by keeping him out of the region. No other character in Nintendo history has had that happen to them.
** North American is very important since it usually manages to pull over 50% of the sales for both Zelda and Smash. Our tastes and opinions can't be ignored.
** Sakurai is in the business of pleasing fans by adding characters we like or will eventually like. He may be satisfying some Japanese fans (emphasis on some, I'll get to that in a second), but he's doing a great disservice to North Americans. This means adding Tingle is negative gain.


The only rebuttal I'm getting is "just adding Tingle won't hurt sales" You're ignoring the part where a negative is still a negative. Any moderately intelligent director of anything avoids them because guess what, they add up and diminish the overall product in the long run.


Last thing I want to mention: Tingle's popularity in Japan is frequently made out to be amazing, but I'd like to show you something I posted two months ago (updated for 10/16/09):

Donkey Kong Country ---- 3.00m [JP] 9.30m [All]
SMW2: Yoshi's Island --- 1.77m [JP] 4.12m [All]
Wario Land: SML3 ------- 1.59m [JP] 5.19m [All]

Tingle's Rupeeland ----- 0.24m [JP] (N/A) [All]
Balloon Trip of Love --- 0.09m [JP] (N/A) [All] (2 months since release)

Legend of Zelda -------- 1.69m [JP] 6.51m [All]
Adventure of Link ------ 1.61m [JP] 4.38m [All]
Link to the Past ------- 1.16m [JP] 4.61m [All]
Link's Awakening ------- 0.54m [JP] 3.83m [All]
Ocarina of Time -------- 1.46m [JP] 7.60m [All]
Link's Awakening DX ---- 0.51m [JP] 2.22m [All]
Majora's Mask ---------- 0.74m [JP] 3.36m [All]
Oracle of Ages/Seasons - 0.82m [JP] 3.78m [All]
LttP/Four Swords ------- 0.34m [JP] 2.58m [All]
Wind Waker ------------- 0.89m [JP] 4.55m [All]
Four Swords Adventures - 0.13m [JP] (N/A) [All]
Minish Cap ------------- 0.27m [JP] 1.34m [All]
Twilight Princess ------ 0.64m [JP] 6.90m [All]
Crossbow Training ------ 0.28m [JP] 4.01m [All]
Phantom Hourglass ------ 0.95m [JP] 4.54m [All]

Tingle's games are selling worse than almost every Zelda title in Japan. Rupeeland has been out for three years and the only game it managed to outdo was Four Swords Adventures. Balloon Trip of Love has been out for two months and it's off to a worse start than Rupeeland. And this is on the DS, the most popular system on the market. It's even worse when you compare him to the initial spinoff titles for DK, Yoshi, and Wario.

So tell me again, why is it better to add a character hated in one region, meh in another, and something of a niche in his home rather than make him an AT?

Spoiler

Sorry Wizzerd, I was really hoping for Balloon Trip to do better.

Spoiler

Pieman: sounds like fightin' words.

edit: jasdkfjasd charts

The arguement at the beginning of this was that, if Zelda were to get another rep, it'd pretty much be guarenteed to be Tingle because there really isn't anyone else that competes with him as he has his own franchise and has been a reoccuring character in every Zelda game except Twilight Princess since Majora's Mask. As said in the past, sales aren't that important. Sakurai said that Pit's addition was based on the sales of Kid Icarus on the GBA and, out of the 26 re-released in the Famicom series, Kid Icarus was dead last in sales by several thousand copies. If Sakurai sets his standards that low when it comes to sales, I hardly see why Tingle would have any trouble. Also, I wouldn't say that it's fair to compare Tingle to DK, Yoshi, and Wario because they all came from Nintendo's biggest franchise which is still going strong while even Miyamoto himself has expressed his concern on how Zelda is losing popularity in Japan.

Also, you still talk as if adding Tingle would pretty much destroy the game and, as I pointed out, he'd just be a miniscule fraction of the experience that the player is given the choice to avoid altogether if they want to. It's like the ketchup example, it's there but no one is forcing you to use it.

Regarding Tingle being kept out of North America, it was pretty much decided by subscribers to Nintendo Power who had a Nintendo.com account. With that being said, it was pretty much decided by people like us who actually have made talking about games a sort of hobby. Naturally, most of the population isn't like this and I don't think it'd be too much of stretch to say that no more than 1/4 of the people who would buy SSB4 would be categorized like this. Truth be told, most people who buy games don't care that much as long as the game is still fun.

As I said, you're blowing up Tingle to be an enormous negative. He's my second most hated video game character and even I know this is garbage. He's more like a small "bald" spot on a piece a pizza than a rotten pepperoni. With that being said, he would only be a major negative if you're extremelly petty and, stubbornly, overlooked everything else the game has to offer.

@ Thirdkoopa:

He was turned down both in Melee and Brawl, according to Sakurai.

 

[Hero Dude]

Truth be told, most people who buy games don't care that much as long as the game is still fun.

Tingles games are quite fun. I agree.

 

[BBQTV]

Tingles games are quite fun. I agree.

how in the hell did you get that from what he said he is talking about smash 4

 

[Hero Dude]

No, he was talking about games in genral from what I got. I imported the Tingle games, and with no pre set oppinion of him, I thought his games where fun. Notice he said GAMES instead of Smash 4.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Why did I know you where gonna say that :D

Because I am completely biased for the Mother series :D And I just finished M1 while typing this post, now I can speak up more on the ninten situation.

Ninten isn't just a look-a-like to ness: He practically is Ness - At least with Lucas there's things like his music battles and different style, but ninten is so similar not just in looks despite what starmen says.

Yeah; He literately is Alt Costume material like Kid Claus to Lucas.

Speaking of mother: Is anyone asides from me worried that Sakurai will just bring New Pork City back and give us some random Mother 2 stage and call it a day? I was playing melee yesterday and while fourside wasn't that fun in melee, I feel it would be much more fun in the Brawl/64 Fighting style, which is probably why people found saffron city so much fun (Keep in mind this comes from someone who mains lucas )

As for a new stage from Mother 3; Tamzilly/Ohshoe Castle would be pretty sweet - It could be similar to delfino.

@ Thirdkoopa:

He was turned down both in Melee and Brawl, according to Sakurai.

Horah for knowing how my SN Is suppose to be spelled and knowing how lazy I was when making this and all...I'm starting to think I should get prenium just to change it

As for brawl; Really? That's rather interesting. I've never heard of where for that...So It seems unless next time they get the technology to incorperate him in, he won't be in.

...=[ But of course on the other hand, that means they see him as first priority for there next WTF.

 

[BBQTV]

No, he was talking about games in genral from what I got. I imported the Tingle games, and with no pre set oppinion of him, I thought his games where fun. Notice he said GAMES instead of Smash 4.

yeah yeah i know but come on

 

[Hero Dude]

Come on what?

 

[Cyn]

I'm glad more people are realizing that Ganondorf would likely be better off with a trident. While technically its gameplay mechanics are about the same as a sword would be, its still a nice change in aethetics, and is also a nice throwback to the older games, since he used it a lot back then.

Spoiler

Bring it on, Toise

I think it could be used a lot differently than a sword. One thing is its primarily a stabbing weapon that has a long reach. It can be used to grab and bring people in close to get combos going. I'm sure it could be used as some sort of magical weapon too. There are a lot of different ways it could be used that could be different from a sword. I would hope that the programmers would make it a lot more unique than just another slashing weapon

 

[Big-Cat]

Hey guys, which of these do you prefer:

Stale Moves or Combo Scaling?

Of course, this is assuming more hitstun will be put in.

Combo scaling is basically this:

Your first two moves will be 100% of their strength. The next move used will be 9/10th of its maximum power, th next one 8/10th, and then so on. Any attacks that perform several hits at once like Samus' Screw Attack and Lucas' NAir would only count as one attack.

I think combo scaling might be the better choice because a number of characters lack solid KO moves (ie Sonic).

 

[Wizzerd]

Hey guys, which of these do you prefer:

Stale Moves or Combo Scaling?

Of course, this is assuming more hitstun will be put in.

Combo scaling is basically this:

Your first two moves will be 100% of their strength. The next move used will be 9/10th of its maximum power, th next one 8/10th, and then so on. Any attacks that perform several hits at once like Samus' Screw Attack and Lucas' NAir would only count as one attack.

I think combo scaling might be the better choice because a number of characters lack solid KO moves (ie Sonic).

I don't know about anyone else, but as a casual, it kind of discourages me for people to be able to take me from 0% to 50% and I can't do anything about it.

In any case, I think the staling system is perfectly fine as it is.

 

[Big-Cat]

I don't know about anyone else, but as a casual, it kind of discourages me for people to be able to take me from 0% to 50% and I can't do anything about it.

In any case, I think the staling system is perfectly fine as it is.

I know what you're talking about. It discourages me when I get stuck in a damaging combo or in a stun state in Street Fighter, especially HD Remix. However, as I mentioned earlier, under the combo scaling system, long strings of combos are discouraged to some extent. Let's put it this way, assuming Meta Knight can combo like crazy in SSB4, his juggles shouldn't be able to kill you because each sequential move in the combo weakens in power and knockback.

 

[Wizzerd]

I know what you're talking about. It discourages me when I get stuck in a damaging combo or in a stun state in Street Fighter, especially HD Remix. However, as I mentioned earlier, under the combo scaling system, long strings of combos are discouraged to some extent. Let's put it this way, assuming Meta Knight can combo like crazy in SSB4, his juggles shouldn't be able to kill you because each sequential move in the combo weakens in power and knockback.

Oh... seriously? I assumed it was some sort of thing about making SSB4 more competitive. Thinking about it, it's an interesting idea, but it might be simpler to just go through playtesting to remove combos... though that might take too long... yeah, it's an interesting idea. I'll see what other people have to say about it.

 

[Big-Cat]

Oh... seriously? I assumed it was some sort of thing about making SSB4 more competitive. Thinking about it, it's an interesting idea, but it might be simpler to just go through playtesting to remove combos... though that might take too long... yeah, it's an interesting idea. I'll see what other people have to say about it.

I can understand why you thought so. After all, I want to see SSB4 more competitive than its predecessors, but at the same time, I want to see 50:50 on casual and competitive elements.

Let me ask you this: Why would you want to remove combos? The only combos I can see being removed during playtesting are 0 to death combos and locks. At the very least, I think characters should have what are known as Bread and Butter or BnB combos: short solid combos at the very least.

 

[Wizzerd]

Why would you want to remove combos? The only combos I can see being removed during playtesting are 0 to death combos and locks. At the very least, I think characters should have what are known as Bread and Butter or BnB combos: short solid combos at the very least.

Maybe I misworded myself. I'm perfectly fine with combos apart from being somewhat discouraged by them, but I don't really see them as a necessity. It seems that whenever someone says something about physics changes to SSB4, combos always come up. I just don't really understand what makes them such a necessity. Eh. I guess I shouldn't really complain about them since they don't directly impact me.

 

[Big-Cat]

Maybe I misworded myself. I'm perfectly fine with combos apart from being somewhat discouraged by them, but I don't really see them as a necessity. It seems that whenever someone says something about physics changes to SSB4, combos always come up. I just don't really understand what makes them such a necessity. Eh. I guess I shouldn't really complain about them since they don't directly impact me.

Simply put, some characters really benefit from being able to combo attacks like Capt. Falcon.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Regarding hitstun and the like, it's really hard to say how SSB4 will turn out because Sakurai said that he wants to get each Smash Bros its own feel. I kind of get the feeling that SSB4 will end up like a mix between Brawl and Melee but it's hard to say for sure. It also largely depends on what new mechanics are introduced too. For example, Brawl has "auto-snap" ledge grabbing and foot-stooling which further emphasizes aerial and offstage combat.

 

[BBQTV]

well whatever he does will piss people off

 

[Hero Dude]

We can have more more than one discussion at a time.
Toise and Pieman do it all the time.

 

[BBQTV]

ok but thats a given

 

[Abomi_Nation]

Nabarl, Ogma and maybe Roy from Fire Emblem.
King Harkinian and his boi as stickers.
No more Sonic characters because they suck.
Buff up Ganon and Falcon.
Change Falcon's final smash.
Fix Falco's reflector.

 

[Arcadenik]

well whatever he does will piss people off

Quoted for truth.

Even if Sakurai does the following:

- brings back the Melee physics, along with wavedashing and L-cancelling
- adds back Mewtwo, Roy, and Dr. Mario to the roster
- removes tripping
- improves the online connection (no more lag)
- adds leaderboards to the online mode
- adds Ridley and Mega Man to the roster
- adds more content to the Stage Builder
- declones Ganondorf completely and gives him a sword
- declones all the Star Fox characters completely
- does not add Tingle to the roster
- removes the time limit from the Masterpieces
- brings back the Board the Platforms
- expands the roster from 35 to 50 without removing nor replacing any characters
- puts in all 9 SSB stages, all 29 Melee stages, and all 41 Brawl stages, and adds 30 brand-new stages on top of that
- puts in all the items from all three games and adds 30 brand-new items on top of that
- puts in all the songs from all three games and adds 100 brand-new songs on top of that
- adds Samurai Goroh, King K. Rool, Bowser Jr., Little Mac, and Isaac to the roster
- puts in all the Pokemon from all three games and adds 15 new Pokemon
- puts in all the Assist Trophies except Samurai Goroh, Little Mac, and Isaac, and adds 20 new Assist Trophies
- makes the Adventure Mode take place in various Nintendo locations
- puts in many Nintendo enemies in the Adventure Mode
- makes 50 new missions for the Event Mode

I think I'm forgotting something on the list but you get my point. Even with all these in SSB4, the Smash fans will BAWWW over it and even be butthurt over what SSB4 does not have and start saying Brawl was way better than SSB4.

 

[Pieman0920]

You should throw in all the past Event Matches in there while you're at it, and should probably make SSB4's amount of new stages higher than Brawl's, add in versus mode where you can use stickers so that those things are useful, and make the trophies not all ripped from past GCN/Wii games, but meh, its still true. Heck, I just added those things in there, there by proving that it wasn't enough. :V

 

[Cyn]

Quoted for truth.

Even if Sakurai does the following:

- brings back the Melee physics, along with wavedashing and L-cancelling
- adds back Mewtwo, Roy, and Dr. Mario to the roster
- removes tripping
- improves the online connection (no more lag)
- adds leaderboards to the online mode
- adds Ridley and Mega Man to the roster
- adds more content to the Stage Builder
- declones Ganondorf completely and gives him a sword
- declones all the Star Fox characters completely
- does not add Tingle to the roster
- removes the time limit from the Masterpieces
- brings back the Board the Platforms
- expands the roster from 35 to 50 without removing nor replacing any characters
- puts in all 9 SSB stages, all 29 Melee stages, and all 41 Brawl stages, and adds 30 brand-new stages on top of that
- puts in all the items from all three games and adds 30 brand-new items on top of that
- puts in all the songs from all three games and adds 100 brand-new songs on top of that
- adds Samurai Goroh, King K. Rool, Bowser Jr., Little Mac, and Isaac to the roster
- puts in all the Pokemon from all three games and adds 15 new Pokemon
- puts in all the Assist Trophies except Samurai Goroh, Little Mac, and Isaac, and adds 20 new Assist Trophies
- makes the Adventure Mode take place in various Nintendo locations
- puts in many Nintendo enemies in the Adventure Mode
- makes 50 new missions for the Event Mode

I think I'm forgotting something on the list but you get my point. Even with all these in SSB4, the Smash fans will BAWWW over it and even be butthurt over what SSB4 does not have and start saying Brawl was way better than SSB4.

I think if all that happened I'd **** my pants from sheer joy, and they should add Alucard.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Tingle stuff

Be honest. Are you advocating Tingle because you think Zelda has to have another character, or because the character himself is worth adding to the playable roster?


Look, Tingle is not popular. If you disagree with that, you're in denial. If you really think people reading Nintendo Power are the only ones who don't like him, you're being naive. Even the team behind his games realize this:

"He is not a cool guy at all, and he is not a character whom everybody likes. However, at least I can say he is a person who cannot be ignored. I believed there was a chance his public image could be changed from unfavourable to favourable depending on what kind of game we made, so I took a risk and chose him, despite knowing he was not liked by the people - especially in the U.S." - Kensuke Tanabehttp://ms.nintendo-europe.com/tingle/enGB/

Ouch. I wonder how many other developers have admitted that their star character isn't liked on their own website?

I posted the sales to give an impression on his situation in Japan. Compared to Zelda games, he's doing poorly (though the first game was still technically a success). His second game had the momentum from the first and even better reviews, yet it's doing noticably worse than the first so far. Kinda goes against the whole "but the Japanese are in love with him!" thought.


You have this impression that I feel adding Tingle is nothing short of catastrophic. How are you getting that? The only thing I've been saying is that he's not popular/likable, and as a result, his inclusion would be a flaw to the game. A flaw. A negative point. The kind of thing you avoid because too many of them ruin the big picture.

All I'm getting from you is:

** The "he won't hurt sales" line (which is technically false since ANY flaw translates to lesser sales if it's noticable; sales will only be significantly lowered if the sum of all the flaws is too great to ignore, and the game will absolutely have flaws anyway, so why add another intentionally?)
** Bad analogies (guess what, you can't avoid him if you play single-player modes, online, or use the random button)
** Comparisons to characters who AREN'T hated (unknown =/= unpopular; being unknown isn't a problem if the character is still likable)


The only reason to add Tingle is to gamble on his appearance reversing his unpopularity. The odds are against him on that since rarely does anyone fix a crappy reputation in one shot. He needs to do it on his own, in his own games, at his own pace. It'll take a while and he might never be fully accepted, but it's the only hope he has.

Thrust Tingle into the game now though, and it won't go well for him. Count on it.

 

[Arcadenik]

Nintendo franchises ordered by international total sales (at least according to VGChartz):

Mario - 372.18
Pokemon - 177.63
Wii - 103.82
Zelda - 56.61

Donkey Kong - 48.10
Duck Hunt - 28.31
Kirby - 27.84
Yoshi - 22.11

Wario - 20.79
Animal Crossing - 17.39
Metroid - 14.34
Star Fox - 10.44

Excitebike - 6.23
F-Zero - 5.11
Game & Watch - 3.74
Punch-Out!! - 3.64

Fire Emblem - 3.54
Pikmin - 3.25
Golden Sun - 2.85
Rhythm Heaven - 2.32

Kid Icarus - 1.76
Ice Climber - 1.70
Starfy - 1.69
Mother - 1.65

R.O.B. - 1.32
Wars - 1.11
Custom Robo - 0.84
Chibi-Robo - 0.43

Fossil Fighters - 0.42
Kururin - 0.36
Tingle - 0.33
Sin & Punishment - 0.13

Nazo no Murasamejou - 0.07
Balloon Fight - 0.06
Clu Clu Land - 0.04
Captain Rainbow - 0.01

Some of them are probably inaccurate. I noticed that VGChartz didn't have sales total for some of the games under certain franchises like Game & Watch, Fire Emblem, F-Zero, Nazo no Murasamejou, Balloon Fight, Punch-Out!!, and Kid Icarus so they would probably be a bit higher. I also couldn't find sales total for certain franchises such as StarTropics, Panel de Pon, Joy Mech Fight, and Mole Mania.

 

[Pieman0920]

Look, Tingle is not popular. If you disagree with that, you're in denial. If you really think people reading Nintendo Power are the only ones who don't like him, you're being naive. Even the team behind his games realize this:

?

While I'll certainly agree that Tingle by no means popular in NA, that only means that he's not popular...well in NA. While his games also didn't sell as well as other franchises has, the fact that he even got a game for himself is proof that he has popularity, and the fact that he got a sequel is also proof of that. Now while I think that NA gamers in general don't like the character, and thus there is a very real chance of him not being included, overall he really is the most likely new Zelda character. Now of course is valid to say that by no means should the Zelda series expand if the best choice is really a character who is generally hated in a whole market, but quite frankly I don't think this has much standing. There are sevreal gamers who openly hate Pokemon, yet still love Smash, and I feel that this really is a apt comparison to Tingle's situation in a way. In all truth, the greater majority of Mario fans hate Bowser Jr. but that barely ever comes up when it comes to his chances.