[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[Hero Dude]

I would prefer just to play as one kind of Ridley.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I would prefer just to play as one kind of Ridley.

That's the thing, which of those do you think would work best for balancing Ridley's large size and long range?

 

[Hero Dude]

Something like Fatigue Ridley, but a bit differant.

 

[Big-Cat]

@SmashChu
It doesn't really matter if the stick is analog or not. To do a Smash attack, you have to quickly tilt anyway while you don't for tilts. I don't see the problem.

 

[BBQTV]

Hmm... I've been thinking about how to "balance Ridley" for the past hour and these are some options I've thought of.

1. "Wreckless Ridley"- Some of his attacks are so powerful that they hurt him (like Pichu in Melee) and/or they severally slow him down for awhile whether they hit or miss (like Hyper Beam in the Pokemon games).

2. "Fatigue Ridley"- As Ridley takes more damage, the slower he becomes and his jumps become shorter.

3. "Hovering Ridley"- Ridley's Up B attack puts him airborne and he can fly around like Peach's hover. The downside is, while airborne, he can only go back on the ground by using his B down attack which causes him to crash down onto the ground (like his attack in the SSE) and he can't use his jumps. Also, as time goes on, he sinks down lower until he touches the ground or falls to his death if he's over a pit. He can also only use aerial attacks and use special attacks cause him to sink down lower.

Any thoughts on the issue?

bah you see this this is why ridley no why sakurai doesn't want him in to much **** to deal with

 

[Paper Mario Master]

Here's a crazy thought: How 'bout Ridley? does he really hafta be screwed up some way? He's already gonna have to be smaller than normal so what's the problem?

 

[smashplayer16]

bah you see this this is why ridley no why sakurai doesn't want him in to much **** to deal with

Looks like people are just making it harder than it seems.

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

...We could just put RIdley in the game as a normal fighter, or we could not, I care very little

 

[Wizzerd]

I actually think Ridley's size would balance itself. Sure, he would have massive hitboxes, but his size would make him really easy to hit and combo fodder, made worse by his (theoretically) punishable attacks, him likely being a heaviweight. I mean, it would still be somewhat difficult, and I'm not a programmer, but... yeah. In any case, Fatman's ideas are pretty good ways of balancing it out if needed.

 

[SmashChu]

@SmashChu
It doesn't really matter if the stick is analog or not. To do a Smash attack, you have to quickly tilt anyway while you don't for tilts. I don't see the problem.

What? The fact you say this leads me to believe you do not play Smash Brothers.

To do a Smash attack, two conditions must be met

1)The button and the movement of the stick must occur at the same time
2)The stick must be at the farthest point (so, for a down smash, the stick must be pointed down as far as it will go)

#2 is what is unique about Smash. Smash utilizes analog control. This is why you can't do a Smash attack if the controller isn't at the very edge of it's limit.

Play with the Wii Remote alone and you'll see what I'm talking about. To go a Smash attack there, only condition one must be met, but this means you have limited control and you can barely do up tilts.

Also, Smash Brothers fans are not fighting game fans (or traditional at least). Smash fans would not go out an buy an arcade stick.

 

[BBQTV]

of course worst idea i heard in this thread ha arcade control

 

[Fatmanonice]

Well, regarding his size, I decided to test out size differences and I found that the most suitable size for Ridley would the size of DK after he eats a Super Mushroom. DK at this size makes him about 1.5x the height of Samus. Personally, I think this is a very suitable height based on the height differences between the other main rivals in Brawl. Bowser is about 1.5x the height of Mario, Ganondorf is 1.33x the height of Link, and King Dedede is about 2x the height of Kirby. The only problem with Ridley's size is that his range would be absolutely freakish (like covering 3/4 of Final Destination with most of his attacks) if he ate a Super Mushroom but, of course, that'd only be an issue with items on.

@ Paper Mario Master:

The problem is that in most fighting games, large characters with long ranges can easily become freakishly unbalanced if played a certain way. This doesn't fully play out in a game like Smash Bros because of the game physics but you also have to consider that Ridley can fly. Basically, Ridley would kind of be a mix between DK and Charizard if you can imagine that.

 

[Hero Dude]

Can we talk about something else?

Please?

 

[Paper Mario Master]

I didn't really understand if you answered my question or not, Do we have to mess up Ridley for him to be "balanced"? Does every character have to be balanced? No. Are they all ever going to be? No.

What would you suggest Hero Dude? More Punch Out?

 

[WolfCypher]

But there's no reason to purposely make a character broken, either.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I didn't really understand if you answered my question or not, Do we have to mess up Ridley for him to be "balanced"? Does every character have to be balanced? No. Are they all ever going to be? No.

What would you suggest Hero Dude? More Punch Out?

Not nessecarily balanced but definately not retardedly broken which is what a character like Ridley would run a risk of being if not made right.

Add in: Basically, a strong, large character with a long reach and the ability to fly is something that could easily be very broken in Smash Bros. You make him heavy or given him too quick of aerials, he becomes extremelly hard to kill vertically, you make his range too good and he can poke through most characters' shields and shut down most character's approaches, and, as we have seen with Metaknight, making a character's recovery too good brings its own problems too like making edgeguarding obsolete for other characters while making it freakishly good for Ridley.

 

[Big-Cat]

What? The fact you say this leads me to believe you do not play Smash Brothers.

To do a Smash attack, two conditions must be met

1)The button and the movement of the stick must occur at the same time
2)The stick must be at the farthest point (so, for a down smash, the stick must be pointed down as far as it will go)

#2 is what is unique about Smash. Smash utilizes analog control. This is why you can't do a Smash attack if the controller isn't at the very edge of it's limit.

Play with the Wii Remote alone and you'll see what I'm talking about. To go a Smash attack there, only condition one must be met, but this means you have limited control and you can barely do up tilts.

Also, Smash Brothers fans are not fighting game fans (or traditional at least). Smash fans would not go out an buy an arcade stick.

Believe me, I have played Smash from the very beginning. Besides, do you think I would be posting in here since this thread was made if I didn't play Smash?

I don't understand what the heck you're saying for #2. That doesn't seem like analog control to me. An arcade stick can already point down as much as possible so it would satisfy those two conditions. I wonder if you yourself have used an arcade stick.

 

[Hero Dude]

New Topic!......................(Someone make one, PLEASE)

 

[ScoobyCafe]

Not nessecarily balanced but definately not retardedly broken which is what a character like Ridley would run a risk of being if not made right.

I think you're gimping him a bit too much. Fatigue Ridley and the former half of Wreckless Ridley is pushing it, I would think.

All you need to do is give him laggy standard attacks and hampered ground movement. To not make him overly useless, give him a good aerial game, disjointed hitboxes, and super armor. Presto, balanced Ridley.

Add in: Basically, a strong, large character with a long reach and the ability to fly is something that could easily be very broken in Smash Bros. You make him heavy or given him too quick of aerials, he becomes extremelly hard to kill vertically, you make his range too good and he can poke through most characters' shields and shut down most character's approaches, and, as we have seen with Metaknight, making a character's recovery too good brings its own problems too like making edgeguarding obsolete for other characters while making it freakishly good for Ridley.

He may have range, but his ground moves won't be fast enough to warrant trouble for those who try to approach. In fact, they could probably easily punish Ridley for using a tilt, smash attack, etc.

Also, he has to constantly keep jumping or flying to be usable, which too has it's share of problems. And as far as killing him is concerned, he'd be like Bowser or Ganon. Yes, it takes longer to kill them, but rightfully so, given their problems, i.e. being big targets. Ridley should be no different.

New Topic!......................(Someone make one, PLEASE)

Stop.

If you don't like the current discussion, kindly leave, please.

 

[Paper Mario Master]

I guess I getchya fatman, so I guess we've resolved Ridley for now......

 

[Hero Dude]

Okay.
This is the only thread I post in, and it will continue to be. was asking if someone would start a new discussion for me.

 

[smashplayer16]

New Topic!......................(Someone make one, PLEASE)

check out this thread and put some of your input in http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=251536

 

[BBQTV]

new discussion what to discuss? so lets discuss

 

[smashplayer16]

Seems like you all discussed everything character wise. This thread has over a thousand pages of character discussion.

 

[BBQTV]

almost anyway :new topic story mode

 

[Neo Exdeath]

^ The next game needs more enemies from Ninty games in its Story Mode. None of this "Subspace" nonsense.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Ridley is talked about way too much in this thread but considering how I haven't really talked about him in like 6 months, I thought I'd throw in my two cents since I'd still love to see him make given he's essentially Nintendo's most brutal villian.

So you want a new topic? How about new stage physics? Brawl added water and swimming. How about a free falling stage? Altered gravity like for a Super Mario Galaxy stage?

 

[Pieman0920]

Too many people just complain that they want hte discussion to go else where, when they don't like they can simply go else where themselves! In addition, you can suggest what to discuss. (And no, just saying "Hey Lets Discuss _____" isn't a very good start. Its best to at least throw out your own ideas)

As far as a story mode goes though, I must say that I can't think of it being that much different from Brawl's. While a good deal of people seemed to have a problem with the SSE for platforming reasons, the only thing I could think to suggest there is to just have a bit more variety. Quite frankly the SSE was a huge step up from Melee, and something in its format would work well as long as certain things were retooled. (And it wouldn't hurt to add in more enemies from actual game series. I've suggested an idea of having some generic evil force that fuses things from different universes so we have things like Koopa/Morblin enemies, or Space Pirate/Kremling enemies all running around. It would pottentially solve problems with getting in special gimick enemies that don't exist in their own right.)

Beyond that though, I would have to say that while some people also complained about the story not having any speaking parts in it, in the end I think thats something that should stick around, since the greater majority of Ninendo character do not talk (Link, Ness, Samus for the most part) or simply shouldn't talk in extended sentances (Bowser, I'm looking at you)

Also a freefalling stage would probably be bad unless it had some platforms somewhere in it. A stage with funky gravity like a SMG stage would be interesting, but pottentially dissorienting, and I would think that the programing team would have to decide if that's viable or not.

 

[BBQTV]

yeah they should not speak my friend said if snake and sonic are in big boss and egg man should be villans [big boss not likely]

 

[Fatmanonice]

I want the story mode in the next game to involve assist trophies and other NPC into the story too. For example, I think Samurai Goroh would be a cool partner for Captain Falcon in a stage even if he's not playable. It'd be a good chance for some really obscure characters to get some face time. I don't think AI would be an issue which is the only snag I could imagine at the top of my head.

 

[SmashChu]

Believe me, I have played Smash from the very beginning. Besides, do you think I would be posting in here since this thread was made if I didn't play Smash?

I don't understand what the heck you're saying for #2. That doesn't seem like analog control to me. An arcade stick can already point down as much as possible so it would satisfy those two conditions. I wonder if you yourself have used an arcade stick.

If you have played Smash since the beginning, this should be common knowledge stuff.

The problem is an arcade stick can read the in between space (it probably just considers it natural). A Gamecube controller can read if the stick is a little left or all the way left of the natural position.

An arcade stick (the actual controlling motion part) could be just nine buttons. The stick can only read if you are natural or at one of the eight directions. A gamecube controller uses the whole range of motion and not just if it's left or not left. Look at most fighting games and you'll see what I mean. If you jump, you can't determine by how much you move right or left. You always jump the same distance (The vs Capcom games are the exception since you in the air long enough to press back and left to effect your movement).

The reason analog was need for 3D games was to express a wide range of movements. In 2D games, you could either run or walk and had no problem. In 3D games, you needed an easy way to make your character move at different speeds. Rather then press a button (or double tap), you could move the controller stick a certain distance from it's neutral position. So, if you only move it a little, you'll walk. Go all the way from the neutral position and you run. Notice in Smash it does the same thing. Characters really have like five movement speeds and you can affect how fast they move by how you move the stick.

This is why Street Fighter 2 could be made before analog stick were made. It only needed to see "left" or "not left." Sakurai also said in the game was designed to use the analog stick in Iwata Ask (where they talk about the series's origins).

Basically, the reason an Arcade stick can not work is arcade sticks are not analog, and Smash uses that.

Arcade sticks only read yes or not. The stick is either "left" or "not left."
Analog sticks read all areas of the stick. It may not be "left" or "not left" but somewhere in between (this is the region where strong attacks work).

 

[Kill SizZLe]

People may reject another member from the Mario family but adding Shy Guy would be sweet.

 

[SmashChu]

People may reject another member from the Mario family but adding Shy Guy would be sweet.

That's a new one (but I saw him more as a Yoshi character).

 

[Fatmanonice]

People may reject another member from the Mario family but adding Shy Guy would be sweet.

There really wouldn't be a point though considering it's a generic enemy.

 

[Big-Cat]

If you have played Smash since the beginning, this should be common knowledge stuff.

Well, I haven't played Smash, aside from four small sessions, in a year. There's probably a mix of subconscious controlling and rustiness.

The problem is an arcade stick can read the in between space (it probably just considers it natural). A Gamecube controller can read if the stick is a little left or all the way left of the natural position.

When I get back to my dorm Sunday, I'll test this out with my stick and my 360 controller to see what happens. It's not that I don't believe you, but I want to see if there is possibly an exception of this.

Look at most fighting games and you'll see what I mean. If you jump, you can't determine by how much you move right or left. You always jump the same distance (The vs Capcom games are the exception since you in the air long enough to press back and left to effect your movement).

Again, I'll test this on Sunday. However, it should be noted that most fighting games don't need that feature so this is currently indeterminate.

Characters really have like five movement speeds and you can affect how fast they move by how you move the stick.

There are five? I only noticed three: Tip-toe, walking, and running.

Anyway, this is just a reminder to anyone reading this. I'm not saying an arcade stick should be a standard, but it COULD happen.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

SSE? If there's one thing I hated about brawl, It's that. I mean there's so many cutscenes with like no diologue, then you're basically fighting random things and listening to pretty boring music going through a mediocore platform.

And guess what? It was estimated to take as much time as online did and those two took most of the time of the game itself. If I'm playing a fighting game, I want a...Well...I don't want a kirby game. I'd personally want to see something like event matches but each character has there own set (Like one mission where you're lucas and you team up with fox; then when you're in fox's story mode, you can skip the one of lucas)

Heck, I played event matches in melee more than I played It's adventure mode. I've spent more time on STAGE BUILDER Than Subspace Emissary itself. I'd rather just toss it out especially considering the time it took, especially considering the fact It had no true replay value (Yeah, It had trophy stands...Which felt more like a chore than anything else) - That sums up my opinion's in a nutshell on it (Not the best way but w/e) I'd rather just see something else totally new, feeling more fighting with more replay value (4 player support plz?) and just more interesting and less "We're trying to be extremely indepth but missing major points and spending a ton of time on this gaiz"

 

[Fatmanonice]

Yeah, considering how probably a good 60% of Brawl's development focused on the SSE, it wasn't that good. On the upside though, it wasn't bad, just mediocre which means it has plenty of room for improvement in the future. Personally, the main thing I think that would make it a lot more fun is online co-op.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Yeah, considering how probably a good 60% of Brawl's development focused on the SSE, it wasn't that good. On the upside though, it wasn't bad, just mediocre which means it has plenty of room for improvement in the future. Personally, the main thing I think that would make it a lot more fun is online co-op.

Plenty of room for improvement...Which seeing the ammount of time they spent on in the first place, I'd rather not see it at all. It wasn't really that bad...As a platformer, but this is a fighting game, and event matches are surely something I'd like to see improvement on instead of a downgrade that have potential to making a story. (Seriously, Event Matches...Brawl...What was the good addition asides from co-op events? )

 

[SmashChu]

Anyway, this is just a reminder to anyone reading this. I'm not saying an arcade stick should be a standard, but it COULD happen.

On something different

Like I said before, Smash fans would not accept an arcade stick because it's not what they want. The gamecube controller is already the controller for Smash. Also, the button layout on an arcade stick isn't favorable for Smash.

About the movement speeds. What you mentioned was the animations for each character. The speeds for those animations varies a lot. Running, however, is always the same speed.

 

[Big-Cat]

On something different

Like I said before, Smash fans would not accept an arcade stick because it's not what they want. The gamecube controller is already the controller for Smash. Also, the button layout on an arcade stick isn't favorable for Smash.

About the movement speeds. What you mentioned was the animations for each character. The speeds for those animations varies a lot. Running, however, is always the same speed.

I sometimes wonder if the fanbase really knows what it wants. Most players have probably never played another fighting game so it's difficult to determine if they would want it because most have never touched one.

I also don't see the button mapping a problem. It's just a manner of adjusting to another controller, and it's not always easy.

I'm curious as to why there are fix speeds. Anymore than three seems pointless to me.