[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[BBQTV]

My Super-de-duper top 5:



Well that was pretty by-the-book. BTW is TMNT Smash Up worth renting? Or buying for that matter?

the game is crap

In other news: I'm a bit uninformed on this/Punch-Out in general, but why is Little Mac suddenly a shoe-in for a newcomer slot?

i too wonder this i dont think little mac is a shoe in

 

[Wizzerd]

In other news: I'm a bit uninformed on this/Punch-Out in general, but why is Little Mac suddenly a shoe-in for a newcomer slot?

The fact that he's been revived puts him far above any other candidates for the inevitable retro newcomer...

...And if you don't think he's retro anymore, he has enormous Western popularity, and the fact that he was an AT may show Sakurai's interest in him.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Just an fyi here: During melee's development, it was planned to have lucas replace ness. How is this relevant? It shows that popularity isn't the only thing on his mind. To be fair, Fire Emblem also has It's second most reoccuring lord and It's probably second most popular one.

The Ness/Lucas in Melee thing is irrelevant because Isaac isn't replacing anyone. Even then, the fact that Ness stuck around for Brawl is evidence that Isaac wouldn't be replaced after SSB4.

But unless Sakurai pulls an FE with Golden Sun in Smash 4, Or we don't see isaac in GS3 At all, then I think It's safe to say that isaac will probably get in over *Insert dude we don't even know the name of*

Isaac doesn't need to show up in GS3, he just needs to retain popularity. Marth isn't in all the FE games and Red isn't in all the Pokemon games, why would Golden Sun be different?

In other news: I'm a bit uninformed on this/Punch-Out in general, but why is Little Mac suddenly a shoe-in for a newcomer slot?

Very popular character from a very popular series that just got a revival, he's also possibly the only character with zero problems factoring against his inclusion (no in-series competition, no implementation issues, no 3rd party companies to deal with, etc.).

You also might not be old enough to remember how big a deal Punch-Out!! was back in the day, especially the NES game.

 

[Pieman0920]

Golden Sun looks like it's turning into an evolving series like Pokemon, Fire Emblem, and EarthBound. I think it's best to compare Isaac to the main protagonists we got from those three:

Pokemon - Red/Ash; the original Trainer, also the most popular.
Fire Emblem - Marth; the original Lord, also the most popular.
EarthBound - Ness; the second hero, also the most popular.

All three characters were the most popular in their series (most popular Trainer in Red's case). Two of them were the originals, but Ness is not. Popularity takes priority over being first it seems.

Now if you suppose that Ness was included over Ninten because the two are so similar that they could be considered the same character, then it's just evidence that the first guy gets in over the newer ones. Ness would simply be the original and Ninten would only be a name. I doubt that though. Almost everyone sees them as seperate (if similar) characters.

You could say Ninten was considered before being disqualified by being JP only, but that assumes that Sakurai was more concerned about regional exclusivity than popularity (and since Europe never got Ness either, I doubt that's the case). That'd be some serious backwards logic though. Plus the whole "no evidence" thing.


Anyway, the Golden Sun DS guy shouldn't even warrant consideration unless he's as popular or more popular than Isaac. And that probably won't happen ever, let alone by SSB4.

When considering Golden Sun, I dont think any of the compairsons up there are particularly fitting with the exception of Fire Emblem, although GS works with it differently. So far, we have gotten a new main character for each game, though unlike FE it works through one universe (For now) . Thus, like Fire Emblem, I think that the first main character, aka Isaac does have the possible highest chances, which is quite dissapointing really, since Felix has a larger role when you look at the two games as a whole, and even with that knowledge, you know Isaac will get in before him.

But, in series like this, where the main changes from game to game, I think its pretty clear that most of the time we've actually been getting the newest representative of the series as well. For Fire Emblem, we got both Marth AND Roy. Later on, we got Ike, who was the newest at the time of development For Mother, we didn't get Ninten, but rather we got the most recent character Ness, and then when a newer character came out for that series, we got him as well. PT doesn't fully fit this trend, since we probably should have gotten a DP trainer (Even if DP's infromation probably wasn't fully known to the Brawl staff during development) Then again, PT is somewhat invalid due in part to him taking three games to show up. Another legacy character though that fits is Link, who also shows up in both his most recent incarnations. In the end, I really think you're disregarding the importance of a character being new, and of the little precidence we have of series that have both old and new legacy characters, we usually get the newest irregardless if we do or do not get the old one.

That being said, I think its very likely that we get two GS characters, both Isaac and the new guy, and they will probably be clones of each other. If we really can only have one, then I'd bet on the new guy, but it would have to depend on how his game actually plays out.


@Thethirdkoopa

Little Mac was a leading retro character, and he recently got a new game (and there's talk of another one) He's got status of not only being a classic, but also being topical, which is a giant plus. And as Toise said, there is virtually no dumb thing holding him back at all.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

The Ness/Lucas in Melee thing is irrelevant because Isaac isn't replacing anyone. Even then, the fact that Ness stuck around for Brawl is evidence that Isaac wouldn't be replaced after SSB4.

Isaac doesn't need to show up in GS3, he just needs to retain popularity. Marth isn't in all the FE games and Red isn't in all the Pokemon games, why would Golden Sun be different?

Good point; Because after re-thinking about it, asides from ness just being a character in the first, he had less priority to melee than Isaac does to Smash 4.

Really; Isaac has more popularity, more reoccurance than the new guy, was an AT (Seriously, how awkward would it be to have the "Just Newer" One playable while the one with more popularity/reoccurance is an AT?)...It really seems like unless sakurai (Or whoever the heck plans on doing Smash 4) Pulls an advertisement on us, Golden Sun seems to be debuting with a PC In two possible ways:
1)Isaac debuts alone
2)Isaac debuts, with GS3 Protaginist.

Now It's just a matter of If they become the (Or one of the) new franchise reps...I'm hoping.

Very popular character from a very popular series that just got a revival, he's also possibly the only character with zero problems factoring against his inclusion (no in-series competition, no implementation issues, no 3rd party companies to deal with, etc.).

Wait, If he has zero factors for said reasons, then how does isaac have any? I'd like to know so I won't get any hopes up until he gets announced. (years from now; at least I'll have GS3 to wait)

And the only two things I can think of is new franchise modesty (We got one that wasn't a retro in brawl, one in melee...Yay? Too early to indicate anything tho) And lack of interest shown (Well to be fair, he's an AT, so It's not any insane lack or anything, and that was before his revival) - Yeah, I have a somewhat tiny bit of doubt, but for now I can say I consider him pretty close to the shoe-in level in my book.

edit: Question to Everyone: I don't get how he'd still be considered retro, but If he is in Sakurai's book, then yay. (I'd like to see him in too; I've played Punch Out before on my friend's wii...I just don't want to get any hopes up about any character. Call me optimistic If you want for that. )

 

[DekuBoy]

Mac is a classic character. If he isn't playable, it would be very strange. He already has more games than most of the series in Brawl.

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

I am 80% sure I remember hearing/reading that Issac makes an appearence in GS3...so that should help bolster his chances...And we do have to consider his inclusion as an AT to no GS fans. If a smash fan plays and sees a character who plays like Issac's AT (uses Move or any of the other hand based psynergy) then they will just be confused as to who this "new Issac" is. Kind of Like what happened with Roy when Brawl came out, everyone who didn;t know FireEmblem saw him as a jacked blue-haired Roy (Of course, eruption certainly didn't help, Sakurai >.>)

EDIT: Neevrmind, It was false information, though the new character is Issac's son and looks a **** lot like him

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Wait, If he has zero factors for said reasons, then how does isaac have any? I'd like to know so I won't get any hopes up until he gets announced. (years from now; at least I'll have GS3 to wait)

Hence the "possibly." I always forget about Isaac personally, probably because I haven't played Golden Sun yet. But yeah, he's very likely, even if Golden Sun isn't as big of a name as Punch-Out!! yet.

But, in series like this, where the main changes from game to game, I think its pretty clear that most of the time we've actually been getting the newest representative of the series as well. For Fire Emblem, we got both Marth AND Roy. Later on, we got Ike, who was the newest at the time of development For Mother, we didn't get Ninten, but rather we got the most recent character Ness, and then when a newer character came out for that series, we got him as well. PT doesn't fully fit this trend, since we probably should have gotten a DP trainer (Even if DP's infromation probably wasn't fully known to the Brawl staff during development) Then again, PT is somewhat invalid due in part to him taking three games to show up. Another legacy character though that fits is Link, who also shows up in both his most recent incarnations. In the end, I really think you're disregarding the importance of a character being new, and of the little precidence we have of series that have both old and new legacy characters, we usually get the newest irregardless if we do or do not get the old one.

I really hope you'd notice someday how the inconsistencies in your theories ruin them most of the time. Anyway, let me break it down for you:

EarthBound had Ninten and Ness during Smash 64's development. Ness is the most popular character in EarthBound. Sakurai adds Ness. Later adds Lucas, the most recent character.

Fire Emblem had Marth, Alm, Celica, Sigurd, Celice, Leaf, and Roy during Melee's development. Marth is the most popular character in Fire Emblem. Sakurai adds Marth. Later in Melee's development, Sakurai sends in the clones, including Roy (the most recent character). In Brawl, we get Ike, the then most recent character.

Pokemon had Red, Leaf, Gold, Kris, Brendan, May, Lucas, and Dawn during Brawl's development. Red is the most popular trainer. Sakurai adds Red. Keep in mind we're focusing on trainers, this is a different category than the Pokemon themselves.


Notice something? The first character added is the most popular, the "face of the series" if you will. Most of the time, that character is lead of the first game. Ninten is the exception so far which only means that a series is CAPABLE of having a "face" that isn't the original (see: Final Fantasy).

The characters added AFTER this lead important guy is always the most recent. Lucas is recent. Roy and Ike were recent. If we got a new trainer, he (she?) would be recent. I haven't mentioned the Pokemon themselves, but Jigglypuff, Pichu, Lucario? All recent at the time of their inclusion. For the record, Mewtwo doesn't fit under this because he was supposed to be in Smash 64 (and since he's part of the regular 20 in Melee, it seems Sakurai considered him important enough to fully implement).


Short version: unless this new guy usurps Isaac's position as most popular Golden Sun character, he ain't getting in over him. His only chance is if GS gets two characters, and that in itself is very, very unlikely.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Hence the "possibly." I always forget about Isaac personally, probably because I haven't played Golden Sun yet. But yeah, he's very likely, even if Golden Sun isn't as big of a name as Punch-Out!! yet.

I'd defiantly recommend it If you've played mother and enjoyed both Golden Sun games. It really made me from "Dang, Isaac would be awesome in a game like this" To "Isaac needs to be in this; now"

Him and Mac seem like the only two newcomer's with no flaw's we know about, so I'm hoping.

As for New GS3 Guy debate; It really depends on If Sakurai is REALLY Generous and gives it FE Treatment. There's no way He/Felix are to get in over Isaac.

 

[n88]

Alright, we gots a link to teh poll here. I made it so you can vote for multiple characters in one go and added an "Other" option in case I forgot your favorite character.

I agree w/Toise on Isaac.

 

[Big-Cat]

@ Toise
Have you taken into consideration that Ninten and Ness LOOK ALIKE? I wouldn't be surprised that this was one of the reasons why Ness was chosen over Ninten.

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

Does the fact that Issac is 2nd part (camelot) affect his chances at all?

 

[n88]

A lot of characters are second party DK used to be, and Kirby is. And they're two of the more prominent members of the cast. I think Isaac will be no worse for wear.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Does the fact that Issac is 2nd part (camelot) affect his chances at all?

Considering that he got safely in as an AT and Nintendo has been having it as one of there own, I'd put that as a "No"

...But It could screw things up in the future

@n88: Now that you added claus on and made it multiple, cool poll. I'll vote for sure.

 

[Pieman0920]

Isaac's hidden flaw, which probably won't knock him out of the running anyways, is Sakurai's odd aversion to portable games. Its not like he completely ignores them, but he generally doesn't include all too much from them. Outside of that, the only thing that comes to mind is that he could very well stop showing up in Golden Sun, and that newer games and heroes could overshadow him by SSB4, but that's pure speculation.

In any case, I won't deny that Isaac is clearly the favorite GS character, and that his popularity is clearly a influence since no one even considers Felix despite Felix's role being debatably larger. I just think that it doesn't seem like Sakurai to just add in older characters when we have a newer character who is essentially the same. (Really now, smart money says that Isaac and the new guy will have the same powers and personality) Its just one's nostalgia, and one's advertising I guess, and in the end it could just be popularity, and in that case we have no idea at this point, and it still is "wait and see" when it comes to them.

I still can't shake the feeling we'll get both and they'll be clones though. While it may not be all that likely, the new guy will be topical at the time, and the whole situation seems to mirror Marth and Roy's quite a bit.

edit: 2nd party could be a problem if the characters don't technically belong to Nintendo, and then Camelot leaves. Of course, Nintendo probably does own them....which makes me wonder about if Monolith Soft characters could get in....Does Reiji stand a chance?

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

@ Toise
Have you taken into consideration that Ninten and Ness LOOK ALIKE? I wouldn't be surprised that this was one of the reasons why Ness was chosen over Ninten.

zoop

Now if you suppose that Ness was included over Ninten because the two are so similar that they could be considered the same character, then it's just evidence that the first guy gets in over the newer ones. Ness would simply be the original and Ninten would only be a name. I doubt that though. Almost everyone sees them as seperate (if similar) characters.

I also don't believe Sakurai ever thought "I should add some Mother character, I love that series" as much as "I should add that Ness character, I love that guy." That's a different discussion though.


@Shino: 2nd party = no problem.


@n88: Can you rearrange the order of the names on the list? Aside from moving Claus and Porky, you should put all the new series characters right after EarthBound and 3rd parties after that. Otherwise nice list, hope it gets around. Kinda suprised there's no options from Square-Enix though (not that I mind).

 

[Paper Mario Master]

I don't really have anything to say, Isaac should be in and that's that

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

The character in front is GS3's protagonist, Issac's son. They look similar so both being included is probably not a wase descion for any reason (espcially if he follows the trend of his Father and the last two game's protagonist wielding Earth being a Venus Adept)

 

[Pieman0920]

Do we actually know if he's his son? All I've heard is decendant.

And actually, if there is something like alt costumes, then that will probably get them both in, since they are just that simmilar.

Also have we ever had any statement over Sakurai's inclusion of Ness in SSB? Going from his statements that he was going to replace Ness with Lucas in Melee, then it may just be that Sakurai likes Mother, rather than he likes Ness. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Ness and Lucas are silent protagonists, right? Its somewhat difficult to become attached sometimes to those types. (Then again, Isaac is the most popular GS character, and I doubt his apperance in GS2 caused that....)

 

[Thirdkoopa]

*PICTURE*

The character in front is GS3's protagonist, Issac's son. They look similar so both being included is probably not a wase descion for any reason (espcially if he follows the trend of his Father and the last two game's protagonist wielding Earth being a Venus Adept)

Wow...Now after looking at that, this is like the ninten of mother...

...Maybe Felix is a possibility now If the series get's two reps (keyword: maybe, slight possibility) Tho we still need isaac first. Seriously he looks like the most completed AT Figure for playable. That looks EXACTLY Like a pose that would've been pulled up as PC.

Just throwing that out there.

edit for pie:

Do we actually know if he's his son? All I've heard is decendant.

And actually, if there is something like alt costumes, then that will probably get them both in, since they are just that simmilar.

Also have we ever had any statement over Sakurai's inclusion of Ness in SSB? Going from his statements that he was going to replace Ness with Lucas in Melee, then it may just be that Sakurai like Mother, rather than he likes Ness. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Ness and Lucas are silent protagonists, right? Its somewhat difficult to become attached sometimes to those types. (Then again, Isaac is the most popular GS character, and I doubt his apperance in GS2 caused that....)

Ness is a silent protagonist. Lucas talks during some parts (At the beginning when you have to play with other characters and during the last battle) - Lucas has some actual character development unlike ness, but that's not saying much.

And all we've heard is from his melee journal saying that he was going to have ness replaced with lucas, but scrapped the idea since EB64 was in development hell for many reasons and Melee was being rushed at the time.

 

[Pieman0920]

Felix "may" be the true main character if you combine the first two Golden Suns into one experiance, but he still is pretty much third in line here. Even if Isaac looks identical to GS3's main here, they are still the first and the newest characters, which by the trends always get in. Now as I just said, its very possible that one becomes a alt costume for the other, but if that happens, I don't think the series will actually expand to two. Also, given that Felix would likely be a clone, that doesn't help him much either.

 

[ToiseOfChoice]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Ness and Lucas are silent protagonists, right? Its somewhat difficult to become attached sometimes to those types. (Then again, Isaac is the most popular GS character, and I doubt his apperance in GS2 caused that....)

Did you know the opposite of that is true?

I like that guy's jacket. Wish that image didn't stretch the tables on this page though.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Felix "may" be the true main character if you combine the first two Golden Suns into one experiance, but he still is pretty much third in line here. Even if Isaac looks identical to GS3's main here, they are still the first and the newest characters, which by the trends always get in. Now as I just said, its very possible that one becomes a alt costume for the other, but if that happens, I don't think the series will actually expand to two. Also, given that Felix would likely be a clone, that doesn't help him much either.

But have we had (discluding pichu, that was rush hour as we all remember) two characters with very similar body styles and looking very close to the same yet?

Answer is: No. But I really don't think the series will get two characters in Smash 4. It'll probably be solo with isaac in for at least Smash 4. The future is something debateable; But really, unless this is the last Golden Sun game (I haven't been paying much attention and beat the other two during a car trip, lol) I wouldn't doubt another rep for it in the future.

But for now, most likely thing to happen is that Isaac joins in S4 As a character for golden sun and nobody else from it does. Speaking of which, If Isaac get's in, what should his stage be? Asides from Venus Lighthouse, I can't pick anywhere interesting from GS. ._.

 

[Pieman0920]

@Toise

....Didn't you notice...!

...Oh yeah, you didn't play Golden Sun. Isaac doesn't talk in that game, and that's the reason for that comment after that. I'm aware that silent protagonists can still be popular. :V


@TTK

We don't know if it will be the last game. We know virtually nothing about it.

And why would we need anything more than the Venus Lighthouse? Everything considered, if Golden Sun were to get a stage, then a lighthouse makes the most sense. If it were to get a second stage, then it would probably be from GS3, and we have no idea what that game's locations will be like.

 

[n88]

@Toise

Order should be by CSS Columns now, with new Nintendo characters before third parties.

And yes, anyone who says people don't like silent protagonists is forgetting baout the man in the green hat. (Not Luigi)

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

Yea I'm sorry about that, It was the only image I could find....

And Pieman, I am fairly sure he is, though I did get it off of the Golden Sun wikia so who knows >.>

 

[Thirdkoopa]

@TTK

We don't know if it will be the last game. We know virtually nothing about it.

And why would we need anything more than the Venus Lighthouse? Everything considered, if Golden Sun were to get a stage, then a lighthouse makes the most sense. If it were to get a second stage, then it would probably be from GS3, and we have no idea what that game's locations will be like.

Yeah, I just went treasure hunting for info and all I found was that poster. Oh well; Still can't wait.

Every series asides from FE in melee (If you count the retro's as one full series) Got two stages, tho Venus Lighthouse is like New Pork City with M3...After thinking over it, I'd be surprised If It wasn't VL (Or a place in GS3)

What else should be represented for GS If It gets more representation next time around? I would assume Isaac's descendant or Felix would take his place as an Assist, but It's rather early to say that. I for sure want the battle theme from brawl to reappear...That's the only true reason I play on norfair.

 

[n88]

I love Norfair. Epic stage for Ganondorf's aerial Side Special.

But, yeah, the theme would be good.

 

[Pieman0920]

Well, while Melee had two stages for most series (retro series each got one though, and FE got nothing) the same didn't quite go for Brawl, which only gave two or more stages to some of the larger series. If Brawl's trend continues, I can only see one stage for GS, and if Melee's trend came back....then it would only get one at most because no new series in Melee actually got two anyways.

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

Issac;s home village could make a decent alternate stage (can't remember the name right now)

 

[Paper Mario Master]

For a GS stage how about Lumeria? (sp?) don't give me any spoilers about GS2.......that's as far as I've gotten :/

I'd actually rather have Venus Lighthouse though :/

There are actually a few stages that would work, Lumeria, Air's Rock (replaying the game b4 beating heheh), Venus Lighthouse, Hometown (like Shino I forgot the name)

but if it is VS, there are a lot of places in the huge thing, where would the stage be? The top?

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

I think the top would make the most sense, with a...um spoilers.....at the top.....

 

[Paper Mario Master]

I think the top would make the most sense, with a...um spoilers.....at the top.....

Nice, yeah I've played the ending of GS1 at least, so I'm not completely left out on GS endings

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

I don't recall which ending goes with which game (It's been a while haha) which is the ending for GS1)

 

[Paper Mario Master]

I don't recall which ending goes with which game (It's been a while haha) which is the ending for GS1)

You've ended both?

Okay, The huge Dragon thing at the top, with lighting the lighthouse and everything.....been a while for me too I'm not completely sure what exactly happens but has to do with "Red and Blue" and the huge Dragon

 

[ShinoandtheBallonFighter]

Alright yea, I have enbded both, but the endings of both are a blur (I got 2 soon after it came out and beat it a few months in....so its been a while), But I was mixing up 1's ending with 2's. Red and Blue Dragon would be an intresting implementation....as long as it didn;t end up like Spear Pillar.

 

[Mr Physych]

Add Goku and Vegita. those two should replace the ice climbers and the computer one should be vegita who does whatever he wants and trys to show off. btw they can both fly

 

[Fatmanonice]

@Toise

....Didn't you notice...!

...Oh yeah, you didn't play Golden Sun. Isaac doesn't talk in that game, and that's the reason for that comment after that. I'm aware that silent protagonists can still be popular. :V


@TTK

We don't know if it will be the last game. We know virtually nothing about it.

And why would we need anything more than the Venus Lighthouse? Everything considered, if Golden Sun were to get a stage, then a lighthouse makes the most sense. If it were to get a second stage, then it would probably be from GS3, and we have no idea what that game's locations will be like.

Actually, Isaac talks in Golden Sun: the Lost Age while Felix becomes the silent protagonist. Sorry, I had to be a literalist; it's in my nature.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Actually, Isaac talks in Golden Sun: the Lost Age while Felix becomes the silent protagonist. Sorry, I had to be a literalist; it's in my nature.

Yay, you're back...Internet back working over at your place?

And to be honest; I didn't get the point of this entire discussion of mentioning silent protaginists.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Yeah, it's working again. I've mostly been busy as of late with work and school. Also, how do people know that the hero of Golden Sun 3 DS is Isaac's son? Call me crazy but it might actually be an older Isaac because the other two people with him look like older versions of Garet and Mia. If I were to go with that theory though, I wonder what happended to Ivan...